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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

Would it be too much to change the Single/Versus Mode to accept order change like in the Training Mode (if you hold MP+MK or HP+HK, the 2nd or 3rd character will take place on point after the loading completes), even between matches?

Pros
• You don't need to go to Character Select just to change the order
• It would create a new point on competitive scene, that is the janken; the guessing game of the opponent's order
• Skullgirls would have a more unique feature to Marvel-likes, even if it's not original (CVS2 and mostly KOF)

Cons
• It would apply part of the KOF logic, I don't know if Mike would be fine with it
• Oggling the opponent's controls would be a thing (I'm not sure on this one, looks like very imature but you never know)
 
Fowz said:
Would it be too much to change the Single/Versus Mode to accept order change like in the Training Mode (if you hold MP+MK or HP+HK, the 2nd or 3rd character will take place on point after the loading completes), even between matches?

Pros
• You don't need to go to Character Select just to change the order
• It would create a new point on competitive scene, that is the janken; the guessing game of the opponent's order
• Skullgirls would have a more unique feature to Marvel-likes, even if it's not original (CVS2 and mostly KOF)

Cons
• It would apply part of the KOF logic, I don't know if Mike would be fine with it
• Oggling the opponent's controls would be a thing (I'm not sure on this one, looks like very imature but you never know)
you can already do that in local vs.

doing it online would require coding and time we do not have

(this is if i read your request correctly)
 
Repost from some time ago:

I just noticed that due to the way Argus Agony works now, DHCing into Fenrir Drive in the corner misses on almost all the cast (Squigly, Ms. Fortune, Peacock, Painwheel, Filia/Fukua, Double and Robo Fortune). Argus keeps the opposing character too low for Fenrir to connect.
 
Fowz said:
Would it be too much to change the Single/Versus Mode to accept order change like in the Training Mode (if you hold MP+MK or HP+HK, the 2nd or 3rd character will take place on point after the loading completes), even between matches?

Pros
• You don't need to go to Character Select just to change the order
• It would create a new point on competitive scene, that is the janken; the guessing game of the opponent's order
• Skullgirls would have a more unique feature to Marvel-likes, even if it's not original (CVS2 and mostly KOF)

Cons
• It would apply part of the KOF logic, I don't know if Mike would be fine with it
• Oggling the opponent's controls would be a thing (I'm not sure on this one, looks like very imature but you never know)
Please check if a feature exists before suggesting it.
You can do it in all offline game modes by holding M's H's.
It's used in tournaments.
 
Just went through the updated tutorial sections, didn't see any problems at all. Though I do want to say that chapters 4.6-10 just look... odd being down there. Those 5 having their own column would be nice, though not needed.
 
I'm not a huge fan of the changes to air fireballs. If I'm understanding correctly, this change is to reduce how ambiguous some L fireball resets are (e.g. the double crossup with held L shadow from that Sonicfox clip). While I'm fine with this I don't like how much control you lose of how you position yourself in the air. This hurts her ability to control space and she's now committed to a jump arc regardless. I felt like the momentum stop from air fireballs was a really cool unique characteristic of Fukua and this change hurts her zoning capabilities that are already hampered by the shadow changes.

Honestly, this is a minor complaint but others have posted their opinions opposite to mine and it's looking like this is the last chance I'll have to give my thoughts about it.
 
Cadenza said:
you can already do that in local vs.

doing it online would require coding and time we do not have

(this is if i read your request correctly)
Ah sorry, never had the chance to play local
;_;
But it would be good for online, it's a shame it's not possible.

Edit

Alright, for some reason when I'm crouching with Beowulf, sometimes L Luger doesn't hit, but sometimes it hits.
Is this intended?
 
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Hammerschmidt said:
I think the justification for it was because of this video:


It's borderline-unreactable, and was braindead in its execution. Most jHK side switches are a lot more reactable and mashable as well, I think, if we're talking about the jLK jMP jHK setup. I'm saying this because I feel like that was the justification behind Mike changing things.

Personally? Whatever, Double had one of her strongest vortexes removed (you could buildabear a normal to add an air throw into the jHP side switch mixup). She still has a vortex and strong side switches.

This isn't directed at you, but lately I have been seeing Double players act like Double isn't an incredible character. Why is it so difficult to admit that retail Puddle was stupid, and the old disjointed normals carried a disproportionate amount of people in neutral? Why is it so difficult to see that H Luger trading and still letting them do 7k isnt stupid? Why is it such a contentious opinion to say that a level 5 that still does stupid damage isnt doo doo and unuseable? Is it really that outrageous of an opinion?

50/50s are generally unreactable mixups, unless you react with super (if a left/right this is even riskier), which is another layer of risk.

Retail puddle is super amazing, and its cost reflects that. This is the closest thing to being actually dumb, bc of its synergy with cilia slide (making a halfscreen armor breaking low safe(super dumb but ill still miss it (;;)7).

her disjointed normals were fine, the bomber change was important though (so bomber assist wouldnt be as amazing as retail). Buttons carrying characters in neutral is in no way limited to double really? She has the best cr.lk though that is true. No command throw or standing/rising overhead limits the mixup capabilities it has (it could be a little less plus?).

Trading with luger and her winning is fine, bc if the gun whiffs she dies. It being safe on ground block is crazier to me. Its also an easy land cancel punish unless the opponent is really high up(maybe this is a problem?), unless i want to spend 2 meter on catheads (puddle is height dependent here). Also, their are dumber trades in this game, so no i dont think its that stupid.

Her level 5 is fine now, 2nd to last change it was unusable though, and the loss of bombs remaining on screen is a big change.

Hammerschmidt said:
She is toned down to a high tier character rather than a top tier, boo-freaking-hoo.

:^)
 
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Plaxcaster said:
The input Buffer after Cerebella's Dynamo was amazing.
Could we get a similar buffer for Devil Horns, due to its super long recovery it feels really awkward and inconsistent to combo with it, I find mindself avoiding combos with the move.
I think it could use a quality of life fix with some buffer afterwards or maybe even cut some of its recovery.
Give me practical Devil Horns loops
 
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I would just like to ask.

Does anyone see a problem with giving Eliza a buffer on the actual Sekhmet>Eliza animation (return at the base) on the Sekhmet's return so that it's easier to do certain combos/resets, especially in the corner? Not saying that she should be brain-dead or anything but that would be nice to let those feel a lot more solid, especially if you are trying to input dash or servant as soon as possible after a return.
 
I will say in accordance to what mmds was saying about m shadow not catching.


There are times where i used otg and on robo and heavier characters, m shadow whiffs. So i delay the m shadow and even then it whiffs and they blue tech away. Not sure if it can be improved but thats what i was experiencing
 
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I guess since this is a problem other people have been starting to talk about, apparently the Eliza sHP change has made a common confirm of sHPx2 xx M Upperkhat whiff a lot more then it used to. I'll admit I haven't really done any research on this myself (on what the new sHP change makes easier to convert off of, or relearning a different confirm) since I figured I'd just learn something later, but apparently it's bugging several people. I *will* say that, in retail, I never really had many problems with hit confirming with Eliza that I can think of off hand, and the new change has made me miss a lot more confirms than before in the short period of time we've had this change. Idk if that means if it should stay or go back, but I imagine a lot of people feel the same of way "Nothing was wrong before, why change it now?" on this.
 
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Not many Eliza's like the s.HP Eliza change. Makes HP x2 into M.DP whiff on a lot of characters.
 
dekillsage said:
???????????????????????????????????????????
I just want to do dumb stuff like this without dropping it, the followup timing is tricky (for me at least) since the camera follows the opponent and not you.
I wasn't being fully serious there though.
 
I mean, devil horns loops are practical. They're my go to combos on lights.

Yeah they're hard, but they do so much damage that they NEED to be hard.

I know Mike's not going to listen and change devil horns, but seriously DON'T TOUCH DEVIL HORNS. Fine as is.
 
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Icky said:
Yeah they're hard, but they do so much damage that they NEED to be hard.
I don't understand this argument. It being harder doesn't stop it from working, it just means less people are likely to do it, that's not actual balance, that's fake.
 
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AdenPhoenix said:
I don't understand this argument. It being harder doesn't stop it from working, it just means less people are likely to do it, that's not actual balance, that's fake.
This point doesn't actually make any sense. Higher combo damage locked behind harder "links" is fake? Not even in fighting game context, but in other genres locking better gear behind harder content IS balance. Better stuff locked behind harder stuff isn't fake and this is often used as balance in many genres.
 
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Icky said:
Yeah they're hard, but they do so much damage that they NEED to be hard.
Devil horns loops don't do a huge amount of damage more than a typical Bella combo. Unless you really want to eek out that last couple hundred damage, I mainly just view it as a style combo that's fun to do (and if you are doing a combo whose main purpose is to style on your opponent and show off, then being at least moderately difficult should be part of it).

To be clear, I'm not saying I believe combo difficulty is a good method for balancing.

I don't really think DH needs an input buffer, it isn't that important for most Bella combos. At that point you're just adding rather pointless buffers to stuff that really doesn't need it.
 
Kyugetsuki said:
but in other genres locking better gear behind harder content IS balance
This point doesn't actually doesn't make any sense. Gear isn't a learnable skill, it's more damage, etc. @Mike_Z has literally talked about this with Indivisible and why there won't be upgrade shops, because it's not the same thing.

And your point evaporates when anyone points out the fact that high damaging combos in SG aren't locked behind one frame links, etc. Arguing style should be earned is something else entirely, and I think that's what @Icky is trying to say, correct me if I'm wrong.

Combos are a means to an end. Locking damage behind execution barriers is not something this game does and is actually pretty poor design in my mind.
 
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Cadenza said:
(except eliza s.hp change, that did not help a thing tbh)
I like the new s.HP, it makes doing some of her combos easier. But I can understand you not liking it because it does mess up a number of things too.
 
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AdenPhoenix said:
Locking damage behind execution barriers is not something this game does and is actually pretty poor design in my mind.
Every single character's optimized combos are locked behind execution barriers. Yeah you can get good damage off of the average bnb, but if you want to go 1k, 2k, even 3k more damage then you gotta have some good execution.

Devil Horn loops do as little as 1k more than the standard bella bnb but up to 2k more. And yeah, I also care about the style part of it but it'd be dumb if bella who already does boat loads of damage suddenly had an EVEN easier time at getting MORE damage.
 
Icky said:
but it'd be dumb if bella who already does boat loads of damage suddenly had an EVEN easier time at getting MORE damage.
But she can get that damage, whether you think it's dumb or not. That's why it's not real balance. If all it takes to get some extra damage is a couple more hours in training that means the difficulty doesn't make a single difference at a high level of play.

I don't care about Devil Horns, though I guess it should be mentioned this game is full of things trying to make execution less of a barrier, Parasoul just got a buffer to make L Tear Shot follow-ups easier. This game has auto 360 detection. I don't think I'd be wrong in saying that part of Skullgirls design choices have been for the sake of lessening barriers as long as they didn't handicap high level play.

Saying style should be locked behind execution barriers? That's opinion based, which is fine, but it isn't about the balance.
 
Cadenza said:
I will say in accordance to what mmds was saying about m shadow not catching.


There are times where i used otg and on robo and heavier characters, m shadow whiffs. So i delay the m shadow and even then it whiffs and they blue tech away. Not sure if it can be improved but thats what i was experiencing
Yes I forgot to mention when red bounce is used already, it's so difficult to hit a big character before the blue bounce and still have it grab
 
I was joking about the buffer thing. Devil Horns shenanigans are 100% style and it makes no difference to Bella players either way. There's more important stuff to argue about.

I should have said "easier" instead of "practical". Give me easier Devil Horns loops.
 
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Icky said:
If you keep following your logic then eventually you'll reach the game Divekick
If you take my logic to the furthest extreme, sure. But I doubt anyone here thinks being able to do a particularly difficult combo alone makes you a good player, especially if you can't actually land a hit.

Icky said:
Where does the argument end for easier execution?
For me, mostly where Skullgirls has ended up, which if you'll look you'll notice has even had changes in this direction during this beta period.
 
AdenPhoenix said:
This point doesn't actually doesn't make any sense. Gear isn't a learnable skill, it's more damage, etc. @Mike_Z has literally talked about this with Indivisible and why there won't be upgrade shops, because it's not the same thing.

It looks like I wasn't clear enough.

I'm talking about a simple principle in games of putting better rewards(in this case combo damage) behind harder barriers(in this case execution). I used obtaining gear as a specific example of the principle then stated the principle. This is balance. Mike talked about having upgrades have a low impact on how powerful a character is making "how good you are at the game" more about skill rather than time spent. I don't know how that has to do with anything we were talking about.

AdenPhoenix said:
And your point evaporates when anyone points out the fact that high damaging combos in SG aren't locked behind one frame links, etc.
Again we're not talking about the same thing. I'm not talking about extremes(one frame links), but you are right in that high damaging combos in SG aren't locked behind one frame links. They are locked behind execution and optimization. Both can be tied together and you can look at Devil horns as an example. And when I say execution I don't mean one frame links.

AdenPhoenix said:
Locking damage behind execution barriers is not something this game does

You said locking damage(as in high damage since we are talking about devil horns) behind execution barriers isn't balance. It is fake you said. I responded, "No it is balance" because it follows the simple principle I mentioned. If you don't agree with the principal that's fine... Nothing I say will change your mind.

As many have already said, Devil horns doesn't need any changes. So let's end this here thanks.
 
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QoL request for PW - Can we make it so if red bounce is already used in a combo, that her super still hits on a falling opponent?

I don't know if this a special case because I can't think of any other super with properties like PW super. But I feel like this is an unnecessary drawback for PW.

Example: I think it's weird that this doesn't work

and this does.
 
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One thing about double's j.hp.

If it now sends them downward. can it also suck them in a bit?
Reason being is that it pushes them outward to ranges where c.hp or even c.lk won't reach. before the j.hp change you would rejump j.lp and what not.

From my matches it works better as to restand on a happy b-day and is currently iffy on some a2a situations.
 
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I've been working so only now I've learned about Eliza s.HP . It feels weird having to delay Horus on Lights, or s.HP (3x) > HP Khat timing. But you can also do this which is nifty (not shown: you can combo off of backwards L Servant from s.HP if you know your timing)
 
WRT Devil Horns combos: I think it's fine for some combos to be hard. Hard stuff is hype. You see someone do the hard combo and you're like, woah, this guy's doing the hard combo, that's cool. The only time I think hard stuff is bad is when you need those combos to play the character at even a beginner level, which I don't think describes Horns combos.
 
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MegamanDS said:
QoL request for PW - Can we make it so if red bounce is already used in a combo, that her super still hits on a falling opponent?

I don't know if this a special case because I can't think of any other super with properties like PW super. But I feel like this is an unnecessary drawback for PW.
I don't know the exact parameters for this but this happens with bike a lot especially if you do something like Pillar>bikes, it's weird cause who it does and doesn't work on is weird. Like sometimes it works on Eliza...but Parasoul goes invul, and filia works sometimes but also not??? I don't know.
 
Maybe it's not doable on the PS3/360 version so i'm not sure even talking about it but i'm doing it anyways.
If the game on menus stay inactive for like 2 or 3 minutes is it possible to have like a screen saver mode with the art gallery? So it might be a way to notice it without having to search through things a lot of people (sadly!) don't even know it exists.
 
I know this is a silly suggestion, but I miss Beowulf finishing his Geatish Trepak looking at the spectators. I know now he doesn't do it so he can extend his combos, but it'd be cool if at least we could keep that if the move beats the opponent, similar to the penguin event if Airwulf is the finishing move.

60F0FFA69D705BD1A31C51E4044FB32DD859A649
 
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