Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

[fenster]

What was it? All I see form your words was 1. Is a Mobility tool and 2. Can Happy Birthday corner carry.

A lot of characters have mobility tools, and Fortune's being invincible isn't anything new, I'd argue it also kind of makes her interesting. She can't even jump cancel it if the multihits get weird as Fortune players have pointed out forever so it isn't some infallible thing she can get to work 100% of the time from every scenario. There isn't any new arguments here other than what people have said forever.

The new thing you did bring up was the corner carry, which again, almost every character can get similar same results with that same assist on either corner carry/ side switch, or both.

I just said that the corner carry part was not special, but if there was more to argument about it being too good, then say so.

 

[Broken Loose]

Just thought of something
I have been doing Beowulf raw tag-in right into double snap when I'm corner pressured.
I feel this is very cheap. You can use it like a semi-invulnerable reversal AND it crosses up.
Beowulf's snap hits pretty far so they don't even have to be very close to the corner.
Seems like an enormous punishment for a small mistake like not blocking a cross up raw tag.

Eliza can do the same thing AND her tag is also an overhead with a way longer confirm time. Pretty much any character with a confirmable tag can use it to turn corner pressure into a double snap. That's just a risk of staggering your pressure.

 

[Lawnalog]

Eliza can do the same thing AND her tag is also an overhead

Eliza's tag does not hit overhead.

 

[hilaryyy]

Ms.fortune

Specifically her DP. Would it butcher her if either we limited it to one fiber per combo or have it scaled to 75%.
It is the only mobility dp off the top of my head, happy b-days and can easily corner carry 60% of the screen even using otg.
Now if she happy b-day'd with the ground chain of c.lk s.mk s.hk, she can corner to corner carry into double snap.

It does use an assist but these assist are very common and useful for things other than corner carry like so.

One fiber per combo removes her ability to obfuscate when in a combo she's going to use any resets from fiber. Moreover, fiber allows her to create/utilize different launch heights for routes and resets. Losing that would suck; if someone took or limited Filia cMP I'd be p i s s e d.

Changing scaling doesn't address the concern of carry, it just punishes her for being good in this respect while leaving the problem in place.

How do you feel about her ability to jump on whiff? When should she be able to use it as a mobility tool and when shouldn't she?

 

[Broken Loose]

Eliza's tag does not hit overhead.

Jesus, that's confusing. It uses almost the exact same artwork as a move that does.

 

[Triviality]

This is what im talking about, you cant do this in the new Beta.

I agree, we should make the timer reset to 50% if robo isnt TAGGED in, DHC'd, Alpha Countered, etc.

 

[Cadenza]

But I'd be willing to test a scaling change to see if it would change too much outside of happy birthdays. Though right now, I'm enjoying killing the assist 2v3 at full health, even without snapping.

I feel like it would change her too much though.

a damage adjustment changes your play too much or the character too much?

Headroll being no longer strike invuln would be changing her, not a damage nerf. Anyhow this is my one and only time i was going to talk about fortune. I'll post again whenever the new beta patch comes out.

 

[Mike_Z]

Long post...


Overlapping F and D parry is dumb and has to get fixed, unfortunately. The rest of the timing changes can stay.

@Cadenza
Fukua shadow isn't a buffer problem, it's that she holds the frames for really long after the shadow comes out. Try unheld shadows and you'll properly dash every time, but held shadows you won't even though the timing is EXACTLY THE SAME because the visual cue is different. I might be able to fix the visuals, if not I'll add a buffer but it's still visual. :^P

About Fortune, I honestly wouldn't mind scaling her DP but the thing that bothers me the most is slide into snap, so I'd rather fix that.

a little.
but the size is same in Japanese or English.

Yeah, but it's not hard to read in English, which is why I asked.

Car after otg in the corner

Is different, you can choose to car from the far side of the screen and be safe.

using Sewer in the corner on someone seems very limited now as Eliza must mash pretty hard to catch the thrown opponent with c.lk or use exclusively c.mk for a more reliable catch.

That's a bug I'm gonna fix.

The new version, corner and midscreen, eliminates mixups generated by quickly resetting the opponent after the throw (such as [Old Sewer] -> s.mp -> [Some mixup]) and forces Eliza into at least a short combo.

c.LK c.MP does the same.

I'm not sure how Mike feels about that being an assist though, since the new version generates a green bounce. I'm curious how other Eliza players feel.

That also should probably be fixed, along with Peacock's throw assist.

Converting off level 3 is a bit more consistent now, but still very difficult on Double and Big Band at midscreen. Being difficult is fine though, since Eliza can now convert on both of them with [Upper Kaht M -> H] . Previously she could not.

She can convert without having to start with a DP on everyone.
c.MK(2)->s.HPx2 xx H DP works on DO SQ EL MF PE PW CE VA BE RO
c.MP->s.HK xx H DP works on everyone except Band.
I can probably move people a TEENSY bit closer.

would it possible to consider taking a look at Eliza's Lady of Slaughter being unsafe on hit in the corner?

almost guarantees she'll be on the defense coming out of the super

"Unsafe" does not mean "on the defensive", it means "able to be hit".

The fact that each character has a different wakeup time makes it difficult to judge whether Sekhmet should stay out or take the risk of returning to the anchor.

If you get to judge the risk, it's not unsafe.
That said, I can maybe freeze the opponent for longer or have Sekhmet drop slightly faster.

Is Big Band Supposed to Auto Tech (Tech without pressing buttons, only holding direction) on the early parts of his jHK?

It's not auto tech - the input for tech is "are holding a dir now, and within the last 40 frames pressed a button", which is true of a low j.HK. :^P It's not that easily fixable and doesn't really break anything...

Eliza can do the same thing

Eliza's tag does not hit from behind, they specifically said "when I'm pressured in the corner".

Tags do not have high/mid/low properties, period. They do not hit overhead in any Versus game through MvC2, and it's DUMB in MvC3.

For the record, I have no problem with Beo being able to do that, his tag takes 45f to hit if you tag from in the corner.

make the timer reset to 50% if robo isnt TAGGED in, DHC'd, Alpha Countered, etc.

Tagged can bring it down to zero too, sure. But DHC? Nope.

 

[PsychoCombo]

I noticed that Peacock's ten rai ha adds a lot of undizzy in certain combos. Each spike ball would add 20+ undizzy to the opponent. This happens when you do something like: Combo (make sure you are at least in that stage where you are starting to build undizzy) > Argus or Lenny blows up > TRH. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what is causing this....

 

[Bigtonney]

Squigly bugfix: on both the new raw tag and liver mortis in the corner the first hit of st.hp always whiffs on Parasoul and sometimes on Valentine.
I guess it's a bug since it works on the rest of the cast.

 

[Psychopath]

I noticed that Peacock's ten rai ha adds a lot of undizzy in certain combos. Each spike ball would add 20+ undizzy to the opponent. This happens when you do something like: Combo (make sure you are at least in that stage where you are starting to build undizzy) > Argus or Lenny blows up > TRH. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what is causing this....

I'm pretty sure that's because the tiny balls are the same projectile as the ones used in her level 2 item crash, as such they'd build undizzy independently and even trip IPS in some circumstances.

Tenrai Ha itself is weird, man. There are instances where it'll just let the opponent get free for free. A consistent setup for this I've found is to taunt charge, item call, jHK, jLK, jHK, jLP, jLK, and then TRH will whiff after the first hit because Avery's there to mess it up. There are other times where they'll hit at just the right time during Argus and they'll be able to block the rest of the super. Making it an "Avery" attack could alleviate the problem of him screwing up the TRH links but I'm sure there's a more graceful approach.

 

[dekillsage]

If Fortunes slide -> Snap is a problem, then take it away from Filia too. She can do the same thing with hairball -> snap zzzzz

 

[Pickles]

Beowulf, although not necessarily one of the best characters

Beowulf isn't so great? Are you kidding me? When was the last time you saw a character with such oki and priority with buttons? Beowulf puts setplay on another level and we will be blessed if we ever see a character with his safejumps and mixup in the game again. Peacock throws projectiles. Fukua throws projectiles. Beowulf throws a chair. You can keep your guessing on wakeup. I prefer a + on block dp.

 

[ProtagonistHero]

Can we get Fukua's clones to automatically fire when you hold the button too long, instead of disappearing? Kinda like how Peacock's item drop does (although I know Shadow does it because LV. 3 item has mad cooldown). I'd also accept an explanation for why the clone disappears when the timer runs out instead of firing, if there's a reason for it.

Probably not a game changer either way. I only ask 'cause a friend of mine has complained quite fiercely about clone disappearing when the timer runs out, even though his only argument is "There's no reason for it to not fire when the timer runs out. It's extremely stupid that it doesn't, and must be fixed immediately".

 

[TechPowah]

While I was reading on the changes to parry travel distance from H Theonite Beam, it reminded me that Catastrophe Cannon Alpha and Gamma moves Band forward on parry, but not CC Omega

is it right to assume this is a bonus to Robo for getting the LV 5?

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

Just posting to say I'm glad Fortune AD j.LK got fixed. Headless ad j.LK, j.MP would constantly whiff on tons of characters and was really annoying, because was close to impossible to tell the range IAD j.LK, j.MP would work versus IAD j.LK xx LK Axe Kick. I didn't even realize it was a bug.

 

[cloudKing211]

About a potential Val change, if it happens.

Could it just be orange and green vials, if damage is your concern.

Edit: for clarity

 

[Receita Federal]

i'd be ok with with valentine's purple vial damage being nerfed against duos/solos

 

[MegamanDS]

If Fortunes slide -> Snap is a problem, then take it away from Filia too. She can do the same thing with hairball -> snap zzzzz

Also, Filia super going under Parasoul's level 3 and under Fukuas ball super? @WingZero

EDIT: That might have to change hitboxes though so I doubt it's viable (or even wanted)

 

[RemiKz]

I don't see why corner carry into a double snap is a concern. Like if a fortune/filia corner carried me and my assist and did otg snap from a slide/hairball, the first thing that would cross my mind is "that was a bad assist call" and not "wow that is dumb why can they do that". I don't see how it's any worse than ending your combo with something like hornet bomber assist for the corner carry and then just snapping. Heck, Beowulf gets huuuge corner carry with wulf blitzer and can do the same.

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Would it be reasonable to ask for Fukua's shadows to not be hidden by assists when she's the point character and holding a shadow? There have been moments where there's a lot happening on the screen at a time and Big Band just happens to be hiding a Fukua shadow in some unknown position ready to hit me with whatever.

Spoiler

Thanks to @gllt for the footage

 

[JSlayerXero]

Also, Filia super going under Parasoul's level 3 and under Fukuas ball super? @WingZero

EDIT: That might have to change hitboxes though so I doubt it's viable (or even wanted)

That reminds me, I was testing what Gregor Samson goes under. In addition to Inferno Brigade and Blown Kiss, it goes under Gigantic Arm, Catastrophe Cannon Alpha & H Bang. That's probably not even a complete list either, as I was mostly testing against supers and not specials. Additionally, while it can't go through the opening beam, it will, seemingly at random, go under the Laser Barrage of Argus Agony. Been meaning to put that int he bug report thread for a while, but I never got around to it. Maybe there is a rhyme or reason to whether or not Gregor can beat Argus, but right now it seems that if the RNG doesn't like you it'll just randomly chuck the lowest laser and beat Gregor, when sometimes it doesn't. Heck, while you need to activate Gregor before the move in question, my friend was noting that if you super jump and activate Gregor at the right moment, it'll even fly over the stronger forms of Catastrophe Cannon.

 

[WingZero]

Also, Filia super going under Parasoul's level 3 and under Fukuas ball super? @WingZero

EDIT: That might have to change hitboxes though so I doubt it's viable (or even wanted)

Spoiler

 

[Yomabuddy]

While we're on the topic of fixing things, is there a way to fix this? @Mike_Z

 

[WarpedEcho]

While we're on the topic of fixing things, is there a way to fix this? @Mike_Z

Is there any way you could type whats happening or how much it's off by. That video quality makes the training mode stuff illegible

 

[Yomabuddy]

Is there any way you could type whats happening or how much it's off by. That video quality makes the training mode stuff illegible

Sorry about potato quality D:

Basically what I'm trying in the potato vid is zoom to PW tag so headless to PW bonkers damage happens. As soon as I input tag IPS goes to 5, but then the zoom hit also counts as part of the level 5 chain and adds 30 undizzy, and the tag adds 20, so I end up starting that combo with 50 undizzy already spent instead of 20 as a standard level 2 starter to tag combo would.

 

[Masqman]

Is there any way to make M egret better without breaking the game? I feel that it's kind of useless, in matchups where it my initial reaction was to believe it to be useful i.e. Fukua, Peacock and Robo.

Robo: Lasers go through it, Missiles make it useless (especially now that head missiles for a lot of team comps is free), it can work against L call however with Robo's dash speed and lasers she can actually counterhit you into a combo on reaction. Assuming you have meter.

Fukua: Although it is useful against some of her fireballs, the shadows (which might not be the case after the patch) and fireball at certain angles. The main issue is that in a lot of the places on screen she can BFF on reaction to M egret (and egret won't absorb the hit for some reason?). I can understand lasers going through it because of the whole 1 frame issue but I'm not quite understanding the reasoning as to why Bff goes through. I know it's a projectile because Bella can reflect it.


Peacock: From what I understand, using it in this depends on three things. Your opponent not knowing they can argus through it immediately after seeing it. Not having item drop over you at any given point (even after blocking the beam). And using it before they actually start zoning with just about any pattern. If they have a pattern up using it can net you being item-teleported in on. Because of peacock's nature of being frustating in general, she doesn't necessarily have to think bout it at all as part of the matchup especially with beam, brass, or any number of normal "zoning assists". That being said, after watching tournament footage from this matchup in particular I find that to be the case. The best cases I can see where this tool is even used is TJ vs Liam in Combo Breaker 2015 and 2016, where Liam in one match lost and recently won. Looking over that match with Egret and that matchup in particular the previous things I mentioned happened. In one match (2015) every time M egret was used as a response to zoning or used premptively against zoning it was either blown up by item, or plane flew over it??? This actually lead to how TJ won one of the games. In 2016 however, there was 1 time in which helped. As a result of using about 1 character away from peacock and item (although used at the proper timing) was the wrong one.


I'm not saying the move is completely and utterly useless. I feel like it's similar to how L danger previously was not entirely useless but never (rarely) used because of how bad it is against the things it's supposed to be used against. I did give some suggestions on how I would possibly change it in a previous post. However, I understand that I may not see every angle to the move or why certain suggestions may break the character or even be missing the point of the move entirely. I'm just thinking that one of the downsides of Parasoul is her ability to deal with Zoning effectively due to legs/ movement options outside of dash. and making this tool actually useful against more things would help with this.

 

[hilaryyy]

Can someone tell me how busted Double getting Val sHP (or any other move that would allow for backwards kara) and Fugazi on 6HP would be?

thinking:
! possibly making M-Luger plus from blockstrings via kara
! maybe too strong for neutral/screen coverage
! pain to implement and recolor for all of her palettes??

 

[Broken Loose]

That reminds me, I was testing what Gregor Samson goes under. In addition to Inferno Brigade and Blown Kiss, it goes under Gigantic Arm, Catastrophe Cannon Alpha & H Bang. That's probably not even a complete list either, as I was mostly testing against supers and not specials. Additionally, while it can't go through the opening beam, it will, seemingly at random, go under the Laser Barrage of Argus Agony. Been meaning to put that int he bug report thread for a while, but I never got around to it. Maybe there is a rhyme or reason to whether or not Gregor can beat Argus, but right now it seems that if the RNG doesn't like you it'll just randomly chuck the lowest laser and beat Gregor, when sometimes it doesn't. Heck, while you need to activate Gregor before the move in question, my friend was noting that if you super jump and activate Gregor at the right moment, it'll even fly over the stronger forms of Catastrophe Cannon.

Gregor is SUPPOSED to go under Argus. The RNG bit has been known for a long time and will likely stay. If it doesn't stay, then it would likely be to buff Gregor.

Gregor only goes under stuff it visually goes under. If you're frustrated that Gregor goes under Arm, then screenshot it and point out why it doesn't make sense.

Sorry about potato quality D:

Basically what I'm trying in the potato vid is zoom to PW tag so headless to PW bonkers damage happens. As soon as I input tag IPS goes to 5, but then the zoom hit also counts as part of the level 5 chain and adds 30 undizzy, and the tag adds 20, so I end up starting that combo with 50 undizzy already spent instead of 20 as a standard level 2 starter to tag combo would.

Tag always sets the Combo Stage to 5, because tag combos were really, really stupid.

 

[gllt]

(or any other move that would allow for backwards kara)

mashes Filia 5HK violently

 

[Swiftfox-Dash]

Parasoul M Egret stuff

I see what you're getting at, as Zoning characters have options against the Egret call but I have to disagree on it being useless. In fact there are two parasouls that come to mind that use it well, being Liam and Lawnba(Haven't played many other Parasouls lately). In fact I recently played a set with Lawnba and he used M egret quite well in neutral that forced me to change my gameplay for a brief moment. I believe he got into the habit of calling it while I was in the air doing j.hp/j.hk stuff and when I landed he had a shield to run in with. Or sometimes even using it in close quarters where he predicted me doing lk bomb(followed by a 2nd bomb cancel) and let him get jab pressure or such as I was recovering from the bomb calls. In the end, yes it's not always the most reliable projectile defense, but from a Peacock player's perspective, good use of it is quite annoying.

 

[cloudKing211]

GIANT STEP FULL ARMOR FEELS REALLY DUMB
end caps

Edit:I think it got much better at everything.
Anti air is amazing bc it has a good hitbox, hit of armor, it hits overhead
it hits people when they land fullscreen.

It came up alot in sets. Noticeably

 

[Zidiane]

Giant Step armor feels like typing in all caps

 

[skull person]

The only thing I would be okay with seeing for M Egret is it traveling further.
If you do it from a long distance away you don't make much ground.

Your effective attacking distance while M Egret is popping off is about a dash away from it's stopping location, so increasing how far it travels might make it a little bit more effective.

I think it's fine to stay as a niche tool to help her in a few match ups.

 

[noaa]

Btw, since Egret is being brought out, was there any version where Parasoul could do multiple Egrets without having to wait for a cooldown? I don't mean subsequential L cancels, but doing H egret after M for instance would be nice.

 

[Masqman]

Spoiler

I see what you're getting at, as Zoning characters have options against the Egret call but I have to disagree on it being useless. In fact there are two parasouls that come to mind that use it well, being Liam and Lawnba(Haven't played many other Parasouls lately). In fact I recently played a set with Lawnba and he used M egret quite well in neutral that forced me to change my gameplay for a brief moment. I believe he got into the habit of calling it while I was in the air doing j.hp/j.hk stuff and when I landed he had a shield to run in with. Or sometimes even using it in close quarters where he predicted me doing lk bomb(followed by a 2nd bomb cancel) and let him get jab pressure or such as I was recovering from the bomb calls. In the end, yes it's not always the most reliable projectile defense, but from a Peacock player's perspective, good use of it is quite annoying.

fair

Spoiler

The only thing I would be okay with seeing for M Egret is it traveling further.
If you do it from a long distance away you don't make much ground.

Your effective attacking distance while M Egret is popping off is about a dash away from it's stopping location, so increasing how far it travels might make it a little bit more effective.

I think it's fine to stay as a niche tool to help her in a few match ups.

Also, fair. I'd still like it to be able use it in regards to with lasers, and not have a bunch of stuff either fly over it/ completely go through it (i.e. BFF, reflect projectile, lasers etc.). I mean if I were to fire a laser at something, even a high powered superlaser thing at something but another object were in front of the beam intially, then the beam because of how plasma, light and physics work would at least have to spend some time going through the object in question. Maybe it's just Mz game but I would think it would make sense from a "how would you expect the move to work vs how it works" stand point.

Maybe having go further out would fix it. Maybe a lot of parasouls don't use it a lot of matchups just from what I've looked at in tournament play, (or get punished for doing so).

 

[nursetabs]

Just a quick question: When the FInISHED patch is finalised and released, what will be the future of Endless Beta? Will it no longer be of use or will it still be used as a testbed for experimenting?

 

[Flotilla]

GIANT STEP FULL ARMOR FEELS REALLY DUMB
end caps

Edit:I think it got much better at everything.
Anti air is amazing bc it has a good hitbox, hit of armor, it hits overhead
it hits people when they land fullscreen.

It came up alot in sets. Noticeably

I wouldn't say H Giant Step has a good vertical hitbox, at least not one that'd make it a better antiair choice than M Brass (which has more armor, faster startup, a higher hitbox, and is less punishable), c.HP (faster, WAY better hitbox for antiair), or basically any standing normal that goes above his chest. If you don't mind how punishable the move is (as H Giant Step is plenty punishable on block and whiff), then there's Beat Extend and A-Train as well. I don't think H Giant Step is a better antiair than any of these in any situation.

Also, what do you mean by "land fullscreen"? Stuff like "you can use Giant Step quake to pick up OTGs from fullscreen" is nothing new, and Giant Step quake will never hit you if you're holding up (when not in recovery).


I'm curious what Mike's reasoning for adding the hit of armor was, though. It helps against zoners, but people (like cloudking) say it helps at pointblank which up until now was a really strange place to be using H Giant Step? I'm just repeating what someone else said a few pages back, but if the intent was to help Big Band with zoners, wouldn't a hit of projectile armor make more sense?

 

[gllt]

Is this ok? I don't understand the context for what makes a midscreen snap ok, if ever, aside from Squigly can do it with sing so that is intentional and okay, but this is just free it seems.

I don't wanna lose this but I care about things being fixed more than having a cool setup, DoA can cross up like Mort Drop can via interruption

Did you ever see this or fix it? (2015)

Edit:

Also.. how do people feel about Sing assist these days?

Edit2:

Bella jHK scares me

 

[Cheesedragon]

Man, Beat Extend is a fickle mistress (mister?). And that napalm thing is just a level of fuckery on-par with Parasoul's yawn exploding Robo. Wtf is even happening there? Why does Para break the game?