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Skullgirls Beta Aug 5th Patch Discussion

I was tinkering in training mode and discovered that BB's instant j.lk now works against the entire cast, which is an 11 (4 prejump + 7 startup) frame overhead. I don't think an 11 frame overhead that BB can convert off of extremely easily into full combo is something he needs in his kit.
 
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Look man, I've stated like 20 times that I know it's a situation of where I should just adapt, but either way this seems like it's a bug and I see no reason why it wouldn't be fixed *if* it is an easy fix.
Well, the reason that the point turns around when Double goes behind them is because Double's actually going behind them. There are actually setups that use this to set up a double tag that hits crossup. It's a silly gimmick, one that gets blown up with a HCH punish if it fails, but there is tech using it. Changing it without having an effect on that... the best solution would probably be to up the blockstun so much that the point doesn't ever turn around.

In the "having a hard time blocking it" department (which I do believe is a separate matter to the complaint of the sprite turn), if you hold downback, back, forward, upforward, or upback after blocking the initial tag, you'll block correctly. If you try to downforward (or switch your block direction at some point before she falls), anticipating it coming behind you, you'll be hit, which does suck and I don't think anyone would mind having fixed (if it could be, not sure if it could).

I think the main concern at this point is that since we're at the very edge of the time that the game can be worked on, there are other things higher on the priority list that are getting taken care of before the deadline. It sucks a bit, but there's just not enough time anymore to handle all of the minor things anymore.
 
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I was tinkering in training mode and discovered that BB's instant j.lk now works against the entire cast, which is an 11 (4 prejump + 7 startup) frame overhead. I don't think an 11 frame overhead that BB can convert off of extremely easily into full combo is something he needs in his kit.
It already existed on everyone but Filia/Fukua/Valentine/(can't think who else, maybe Fortune idk, people who had their crouching hitboxes raised) since forever. If it's been there since then it's pretty obvious it's fine.
 
If it's been there since then it's pretty obvious it's fine.
Like Dynamo hitting above/behind bella?

"It's been there since the character has been around" hasn't stopped anything from getting changed in the past.

edit: not advocating for striping a character of tools people feel the character doesn't need. Especially Big Band, who can himself be instant overheaded by everything from everyone.
 
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I wouldn't mind BB instant jLK getting nerfed cause I don't think he needs an instant overhead when he already has Giant step for ground overheads. I just worry because I don't think jLK needs any hitbox reduction or anything or remove his overhead in fuzzy situations. You could use jMK for fuzzies probably but jump back jMK has always been more finicky for me since it's a more specific range than jLK. If there's some solution that doesn't affect any of those, then that'd be cool.

That said, he does seriously get instant overheaded by the entire cast, so it only feels fair that he can do it too ;_;

that's the part that fukua gets to skip, no? every solo can snap the last char into a wallbounce and keep comboing but fukua catches them with the shadow before they leave so even if they would normally be snapped off the screen she keeps them in the combo

Oh I forgot to specify, but Masqman did bring it up that Parasoul could do that too (you can technically do it with tears as well since tear explosions also mess up snaps). I was actually just going to say that I personally didn't mind that Fukua had this ability with the incredible utility of held shadows. What *did* bother me is just how, I felt, held shadows currently have too low of a cost to the point where it feels like nothing.
 
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I wouldn't mind BB instant jLK getting nerfed cause I don't think he needs an instant overhead when he already has Giant step for ground overheads. I just worry because I don't think jLK needs any hitbox reduction or anything or remove his overhead in fuzzy situations. You could use jMK for fuzzies probably but jump back jMK has always been more finicky for me since it's a more specific range than jLK. If there's some solution that doesn't affect any of those, then that'd be cool.

So give it the Eliza jLK/Peacock jLP treatment? tbh I'm more fine getting hit with jMK than jLK just cause of how the two moves are. I don't really care that much just trying to specify.

What *did* bother me is just how, I felt, held shadows currently have too low of a cost to the point where it feels like nothing.
I was kind of feeling this was too but I didn't know how to say it. I feel like the shadows are fair because she loses damage etc. after she's already on the offensive or has already hit you with it, instead of risking things to get the hit (which is fine if that's supposed to be the balance of the move). It just feels weird cause the rest of the game feels like the risk is using the move initially and then being rewarded if you hit. It almost feels flipped. "Use this to get the hit. You got the hit now all your damage and reward stuff is scaled to oblivion". Idk how I would fix it if there was something like that it feels like that's what I keep hearing.

correct me if I'm misinterpreting what ur saying
 
Wow, I don't know what to say about some of the comments. Just because sonic did some shadow combos, all of a sudden she's broken again? You guys have to realize you are watching one of the (if not THE) best players in the world playing against someone. If you watch any best player of any game play someone, that character will seem over powered. Plus he was solo, so damage looked super buff.

2nd, comboing off of snap is super old. I was doing that with parasoul and tear shot back in vanilla and I thought this wasn't anything other than "fancy". Even if he didn't grab with m shadow, the opponent would wall bounce back and he gets a free pickup either way so it's nothing game breaking. The only time it would come in a more 'useful' scenario is if the character was almost dead and they had another teammate to snap into. But even in this more rare scenario where it would be advantageous to do so, it's costing him a meter and a super scaled after combo.

I definitely don't see her as broken and I still don't see her as top 3 still. If sonic had picked solo filia or solo double, I would assume you guys would be saying the same thing.

I guess I didn't realize how little fukua players are out there for this footage to be mind blowing.
 
Even if he didn't grab with m shadow, the opponent would wall bounce back and he gets a free pickup either way so it's nothing game breaking. The only time it would come in a more 'useful' scenario is if the character was almost dead and they had another teammate to snap into. But even in this more rare scenario where it would be advantageous to do so, it's costing him a meter and a super scaled after combo.
Were you even watching? We're talking about snapping the point while there's a living teammate that should've come in, he would not have gotten a wallbounce. He used it plenty of times throughout the set so it wasn't that rare either.

I'm not making any judgment on overall balance, I just don't think snaps should be able to do this. If you snap someone while they have teammates alive, that should bring one in. This seems like a pretty obvious bug to me.
 
It's not really a bug. You could already influence the character getting snapped out. You can even set up a burst bait and a snap at the same time, getting the snapback with them bursting in the air if they fell for it. Fukua's new kit is that she can do stupid shit off of everything, her getting this off of snap is what she as a character is allowed to do. Just like she's allowed to get full combos off of air grab and fireballs with an m shadow.

Also, can we not look down on players who couldn't find this on their own? Outside of this thread, and maybe a discord or dm somewhere, there's no thread where people are discussing setups for these shadows despite them being vastly different from anything she or any other character in the game can do. Everyone is starting from square one learning, and then just watching what sonic does when he streams.
 
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Yesterday was the first chance I had to see the beta changes that were added since the 16th. I was really worried about the changes to Double's hurtboxes, especially j.HP, but after looking at them it's not as bad as I was imagining. It seems like it will still be a good button but now it is possible at all to anti air which I think is a good thing. I was able to anti air it pretty easily with L Beat Extend, and I got it a few times with Peacock c.LK and Double c.HP although those ones are trickier IMHO.
 
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Were you even watching? We're talking about snapping the point while there's a living teammate that should've come in, he would not have gotten a wallbounce. He used it plenty of times throughout the set so it wasn't that rare either.

I'm not making any judgment on overall balance, I just don't think snaps should be able to do this. If you snap someone while they have teammates alive, that should bring one in. This seems like a pretty obvious bug to me.
But this was always in the game and has nothing to do with Fukua. Parasoul can do this since a long time ago. And like I said, the following combo is nerfed pretty hard.

I mean, I don't mind either way if it stays or not. I'm just saying I don't want Fukua being blamed for this and her taking even more nerfs when their was setups to do this stuff before she exited
 
I hope it's not too late to complain about Big Band, because I have some thoughts to share after playing him for about 2 years. In the beginning I fell in love with his ground game and how he could make really hard reads in neutral and how risky it was, it was exciting. But as time went on people started to wisen up and block a LOT more against him in neutral, which would make his already risky moves easier to punish. He has j.LK and cymbals which are arguably some of the best air moves in the game, but why? I don't like how people play him, jumping around and chicken blocking, mixing up air throw, j.LK and cymbals together. I like how he's huge and has armoured moves, does a lot of damage and can make extremely hard reads with parries. But then I see tournament play where someone DHC's big band in, they do brass + assist, get hit, mash SSJ and safe DHC out. It sucks because it's just not fun to watch imo. Why does he have j.LK and cymbals? all of his other air moves (excluding timpani and maybe j.HK) are pretty bad in general but then he has these two god moves that completely outshine everything else. It just seems like an unbalanced toolkit. I don't care ONE BIT about LK/MK cymbals being reverted to hit mid because that's not what the move is for imo, it's for catching advances and not offensive pressure. He has giant step which is already an amazing overhead. I am reaching out to everyone who thinks airjump j.LK pokes and occasional ground special moves makes big band seem like a "lame" character at higher levels of play. He could be so much more! I thought about it and Beowulf got reworked quite hard so why not Big Band? Anyway that's my spiel and I think I covered everything I wanted to (which was kind of one point but still)


This reads like you think watching this character is "boring" which is a completely subjective opinion and doesn't mean that a well designed balanced character needs drastic changes. There will always be that one character in a fighting game that you, personally, think is not fun to watch/play.

Oh yeah and side note, Cymbals not being overhead in addition to having armor/safe/disjointed is fair, but Big Band doesn't need his other tools nerfed come on guys lol

edit: I didn't realize that j.LK got better in the beta, oops. Tbh in general fuzzy j.MK served a different purpose than Giant Step did for opening the opponent up. It's for when your opponent has already committed to blocking a string or for resets. The same can be said about other grounded overheads like Fortune's El Gato Rekka follow up. Her IAD j.LK is ALWAYS a better overhead option, but El Gato is for when your opponent is already blocking grounded pressure. Band isn't really different and I think the armored hit of HK Giant Step will actually make his grounded overhead better.

I'm not really advocating for j.LK to stay the way it is now, I'm just saying you're using j.LK and Giant Step for different things
 
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I am curious about the change to Peacock's j.lp. The one not letting it be an overhead on the way up. Eliza I can get because iirc she used to be able to j.lk overhead on nearly everyone and get a full damage combo. For Peacock, rising j.lp only hits crouching Bella, Eliza, Beowulf and of course BB. Now for everyone that's not BB, you can only combo off the rising light (not counting assists) by instantly dash canceling into j.lk , Though it's scaled by the multi hits and jumps to stage 3. I don't think that's such a bad thing, and tbh I still prefer j.lk as it's a hair less scaled and keeps me in stage 2. But where this is a more relevant is of course with BB since everyone can instant overhead him. Is her being able to instant over head him with an 8 frame light to get a full combo so bad when pretty much everyone else can ( some with faster lights at that)? I mean sure j.lk still works, arguably better since it's only 2 frames slower yet you can break armor and more consistently confirm from. Just all the more reason I personally feel the j.lp thing is a tad unnecessary.

Also after browsing through training more some, I did recall Solo's getting their damage changed to a 1.45 ratio, but dang I could have sworn their health was changed from 205% to 195%, but maybe it was the other way? I could have sworn they lost a bit of health to compensate for the snapbacks gaining health. And one more thing on the topic of solos healing and snapbacks etc, when you snap a solo to remove all the red health (forgoing a bar for damage/utility) they don't seem to wallbounce and just get tossed fullscreen. Sure for Peacock that's great, but would people find it better if you could still get the wallbounce to possibly continue comboing? It's another thing that could help alleviate this annoying health gain thing. (Which I for one am against a Solo being able to spend a bar to gain hp off any combo consistently and yet still get to do a combo/setup on a point character. Not to mention her cost for the shadows, turning health to red, compliments this utility of hers further.)
 
Also after browsing through training more some, I did recall Solo's getting their damage changed to a 1.45 ratio, but dang I could have sworn their health was changed from 205% to 195%, but maybe it was the other way? I could have sworn they lost a bit of health to compensate for the snapbacks gaining health. And one more thing on the topic of solos healing and snapbacks etc, when you snap a solo to remove all the red health (forgoing a bar for damage/utility) they don't seem to wallbounce and just get tossed fullscreen. Sure for Peacock that's great, but would people find it better if you could still get the wallbounce to possibly continue comboing? It's another thing that could help alleviate this annoying health gain thing. (Which I for one am against a Solo being able to spend a bar to gain hp off any combo consistently and yet still get to do a combo/setup on a point character. Not to mention her cost for the shadows, turning health to red, compliments this utility of hers further.)
I remember bringing this up when it was introduced. The reason for this that was told for me was that because solos suck, this is a way to help them be better and give them an advantage by not letting them wall bounce
 
I don't exactly know how this stuff works, but could band's s.LK get the same treatment as fortune's so backwards-moving kara-throw doesn't happen with him either?
 
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While discussing Bella j2MP, would you consider adding a bigger dust visual on regular jump startup for all characters as a tell?

This has actually been super helpful to me in other games for what would otherwise be unreactable instant overheads.
 
This reads like you think watching this character is "boring" which is a completely subjective opinion and doesn't mean that a well designed balanced character needs drastic changes. There will always be that one character in a fighting game that you, personally, think is not fun to watch/play.

Oh yeah and side note, Cymbals not being overhead in addition to having armor/safe/disjointed is fair, but Big Band doesn't need his other tools nerfed come on guys lol

edit: I didn't realize that j.LK got better in the beta, oops. Tbh in general fuzzy j.MK served a different purpose than Giant Step did for opening the opponent up. It's for when your opponent has already committed to blocking a string or for resets. The same can be said about other grounded overheads like Fortune's El Gato Rekka follow up. Her IAD j.LK is ALWAYS a better overhead option, but El Gato is for when your opponent is already blocking grounded pressure. Band isn't really different and I think the armored hit of HK Giant Step will actually make his grounded overhead better.

I'm not really advocating for j.LK to stay the way it is now, I'm just saying you're using j.LK and Giant Step for different things
I think you're right. I kind of had a pessimistic view on how we was played, but not necessarily how he COULD be played. I think big band is fun to watch and play! Just not all the time for the former. It's fine, people will get better, give it a few years and who knows what it will be like.
 
Band isn't really different and I think the armored hit of HK Giant Step will actually make his grounded overhead better.
but the armor is gone ;-;
 
Re: Fukua

In the same vein that,
  • "no matter how much health you have, if you can't get the hit, it doesn't matter"
wouldn't the opposite also apply in that,
  • "no matter how little damage you do, as long as you can always get the hit, it doesn't matter"?
Granted, in Fukua's case, her shadows have a health cost, so if she ends up doing less damage than it costs her to use her shadows, she cannot use them to full effect anyway, but, I don't think anyone wants to nerf her damage to abysmally low levels.
I know it's not as bad as that because of all the unblockable protection rules in place, but watching that Fukua footage made me think of this question and now I'm curious as to what the answer is.

With her new shadows, it seems like she can always put you in a situation where you either have to guess between 4 options instead of just 2 (when she's in the air), or there is the constant threat of getting hit either high or low at any time when she has a shadow out (on the ground) as opposed to other characters that, for the most part, need to go through specific moves that lead up to a reset or mixup that can give the defender some sort of tell they can look out for, or only last a short time if there isn't a tell (ex.: one guess, then you're hit or you're out). AND she can combo off her throw now when it was made to not be able to do that on purpose.

Like, her offence is ridiculously good now.
 
Re: Fukua

In the same vein that,
  • "no matter how much health you have, if you can't get the hit, it doesn't matter"
wouldn't the opposite also apply in that,
  • "no matter how little damage you do, as long as you can always get the hit, it doesn't matter"?
Granted, in Fukua's case, her shadows have a health cost, so if she ends up doing less damage than it costs her to use her shadows, she cannot use them to full effect anyway, but, I don't think anyone wants to nerf her damage to abysmally low levels.
I know it's not as bad as that because of all the unblockable protection rules in place, but watching that Fukua footage made me think of this question and now I'm curious as to what the answer is.

With her new shadows, it seems like she can always put you in a situation where you either have to guess between 4 options instead of just 2 (when she's in the air), or there is the constant threat of getting hit either high or low at any time when she has a shadow out (on the ground) as opposed to other characters that, for the most part, need to go through specific moves that lead up to a reset or mixup that can give the defender some sort of tell they can look out for, or only last a short time if there isn't a tell (ex.: one guess, then you're hit or you're out). AND she can combo off her throw now when it was made to not be able to do that on purpose.

Like, her offence is ridiculously good now.
Her offense was better before. It's still good now , but better before.

And remember, double, filia and a few others also have these guessing games as well. It's not exclusive to Fukua.

Sonic also said on screen that she should GAIN health for hitting you with held shadows since you fell for it rather than lose life. But obviously that's not gonna happen.
 
In the same vein that,
  • "no matter how much health you have, if you can't get the hit, it doesn't matter"
wouldn't the opposite also apply in that,
  • "no matter how little damage you do, as long as you can always get the hit, it doesn't matter"?
It's important to make a distinction here. Fukua is capable of capitalizing off of winning neutral better now, which is nowhere near the same as a character being incapable of winning neutral. They aren't really two things you can compare. Her setups are dumb now, she can confirm of of any mixup, but they don't change much about whether or not she's beating someone in neutral.

her offence is ridiculously good now.
It's been ridiculous since August. She can mixup high and low with a shadow+assist without committing to anything herself. With the right assist you are never allowed to act other than blocking correctly. She can more easily confirm off of m shadow at max range than she could in retail. All of her confirms, new pokes she can use and convert from, mixups that are now viable by sacrificing just a tiny bit of health. She does less damage but it honestly isn't a big deal because it's less of a nerf and more of a "if it wasn't this way it would be incredibly busted".
 
"no matter how little damage you do, as long as you can always get the hit, it doesn't matter"?

i dont think ive ever agreed with a post before as much as i agree with what worldjem said. Granted it's probably hyperbolic to say NO MATTER how little damage you do, but if your damage is a little less than everyone else's (which in skullgirls just means it takes 1 or 2 more resets to kill you, not much) but your setplay is ridiculous, then that is gonna be a very strong character. tools > damage in this game, that's why trios have been the preferred ratio for the vast majority of this game, that's why parasoul was still a good character when people couldn't break 6.5k midscreen, and it's why fukua is so good now.

Her offense was better before. It's still good now , but better before.

And remember, double, filia and a few others also have these guessing games as well. It's not exclusive to Fukua.

fukua's offense was easier before. WAY easier. better? idk about that. double and fukua on retail (and double still mostly) revolved around a sideswitch 50/50 for the most part (airgrab was an option but for fukua you didn't get anything). Beta fukua takes more time to kill you but her resets are MUCH scarier. For double airgrab is a more viable option but in the end it's still MOSTLY a 50/50. Filia can do resets on par with Fukua's but (and here is the important distinction) fukua's neutral is WAY better. The reason that sage/sonic rate filia so highly is because with an assist her neutral becomes much stronger and she can get into her ridiculous offense much easier. Even if I disagree with sage on filia's placement on the tier list even he isn't trying to say that filia SOLO is top 3. Fukua meanwhile can do pretty much everything that most characters need an assist to do on her own, and the only drawback is damage (which, again, because this is SG means you just have to hit them with your extremely hard to block mixup 1 or 2 more times). Characters who are in the top tiers for best neutral shouldn't get to have the best setplay too; in SG damage nerfs are not enough to justify all that she can do.

imo she really should not get to keep being able to hold shadows during M shadow, that is the change I would like to see, but as she is now I think she is far too strong.

and saying "of course she's gonna look scary when the best player in the game is playing her" is not good reasoning to keep her as she is, you think everyone isn't gonna be doing the stuff he's doing now in 6-12 months?
 
i dont think ive ever agreed with a post before as much as i agree with what worldjem said. Granted it's probably hyperbolic to say NO MATTER how little damage you do, but if your damage is a little less than everyone else's (which in skullgirls just means it takes 1 or 2 more resets to kill you, not much) but your setplay is ridiculous, then that is gonna be a very strong character. tools > damage in this game, that's why trios have been the preferred ratio for the vast majority of this game, that's why parasoul was still a good character when people couldn't break 6.5k midscreen, and it's why fukua is so good now.



fukua's offense was easier before. WAY easier. better? idk about that. double and fukua on retail (and double still mostly) revolved around a sideswitch 50/50 for the most part (airgrab was an option but for fukua you didn't get anything). Beta fukua takes more time to kill you but her resets are MUCH scarier. For double airgrab is a more viable option but in the end it's still MOSTLY a 50/50. Filia can do resets on par with Fukua's but (and here is the important distinction) fukua's neutral is WAY better. The reason that sage/sonic rate filia so highly is because with an assist her neutral becomes much stronger and she can get into her ridiculous offense much easier. Even if I disagree with sage on filia's placement on the tier list even he isn't trying to say that filia SOLO is top 3. Fukua meanwhile can do pretty much everything that most characters need an assist to do on her own, and the only drawback is damage (which, again, because this is SG means you just have to hit them with your extremely hard to block mixup 1 or 2 more times). Characters who are in the top tiers for best neutral shouldn't get to have the best setplay too; in SG damage nerfs are not enough to justify all that she can do.

imo she really should not get to keep being able to hold shadows during M shadow, that is the change I would like to see, but as she is now I think she is far too strong.

and saying "of course she's gonna look scary when the best player in the game is playing her" is not good reasoning to keep her as she is, you think everyone isn't gonna be doing the stuff he's doing now in 6-12 months?
I dunno. I still think retail Fukua offense and reset game is much scarier. Hence being the reason it was taken out and replaced with this less scary high low only game with auto block added. Auto block doesn't help with side switch resets.

And as far as best player using it vs a non best player, it does matter. This is still new. His opponents haven't learned to block it yet. I do very very similar resets against some people and they work great. But lately they are getting the patterns down and blocking better at the high low game. It takes time to adjust to a brand to feature. The first set against a new shadows vs the best in the world who suggested it and has been practicing it vs someone who doesn't know what it can do will never look good.
 
My personal opinion.

I didn't think the M shadow change would even stick. I also think that its simply unfamiliarity and not labbing out the options or patters or what you can do(if you can do anything.

WITH THAT SAID. If it was to get reverted then cool. but i would still like to accessibility to use all forms of shadows in a certain way to be preserved in some format. cause previous versions you could only do c.mp c.hp, Hold shadow but the holding shadow was mainly L shadow cause it was the only one to reach consistently so it was a static pattern none the less.

Maybe make the c.hp juggle the person steeper so that you can access all forms of shadows if you need to?

Edit: Shit is w.e to me, but since people like pickles(?!) and friends find this predicament rather dangerous then perhaps there's some merit and we could play around that?
 
I dunno. I still think retail Fukua offense and reset game is much scarier. Hence being the reason it was taken out and replaced with this less scary high low only game with auto block added. Auto block doesn't help with side switch resets.

And as far as best player using it vs a non best player, it does matter. This is still new. His opponents haven't learned to block it yet. I do very very similar resets against some people and they work great. But lately they are getting the patterns down and blocking better at the high low game. It takes time to adjust to a brand to feature. The first set against a new shadows vs the best in the world who suggested it and has been practicing it vs someone who doesn't know what it can do will never look good.
Retail Fukua had access to left/right/airthrow (with no follow up)/anti-mash (other than air supers) off of the M Shadow vortex (she probably has some other resets using M shadow that I don't know about but this is the main one she lost). The new Fukua can do high/lows that are safe vs supers, she can do fast high into low (and vice versa) and she can mixup which side she hits with the shadow as well (the resets Sonic was using also look to be relatively safe to most reversal supers though I'm sure some like Fenrir would beat it). I don't see how you can say retail Fukua's resets are better than beta Fukua's.

Also, you keep saying that this was the best player in the world using Fukua, conveniently avoiding the fact that he was playing vs Sage, a player who is very close to if only slightly below Sonicfox's level. This isn't some rando online Sonic is playing against. + Given that Fukua can mixup the timing of her shadows and whether it is high into low or low into high, etc this is a legit reset where you have to guess, not a gimmick that you can nullify by spending a few seconds in the lab. That means even when players get used to these resets they will still be very strong.
 
IMO I think being able to summon a shadow after successful M shadow is too strong. Fukua's the only character in this game who as a solo has 3-4 layer mixups ergo 25/25/25/25. Not to mention these all happen back to back very fast. High/low/left/right. They are probably not unreactable, but definitely very fast. I think that she shouldn't be able to snap a point character get health back AND continue to combo the point character. That's a little too much advantage. Her neutral still hella strong. Stronger maybe. Her "setplay" game got way more stronger and varied than the reset loops ever was. Idk what some of you are on saying her offense game isn't as strong. That's just my 2 cents.

Also can we give Filia a button to press in neutral. Her grounded normals feel very weak. I know the counter argument is that "she has godlike mixup. She doesn't need better neutral." Weeeellll if you pay any attention to this game. JUST ABOUT EVERYONE CAN DO DIRTY VERY FAST MIXUPS. I don't think that's something that's unique to Filia. I understand this is very late just wanted to say something.
 
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I feel kinda bad that losing to Sonic on his stream after he showed me a bunch of new things I've never seen before is causing a lot of this talk to come up. While I might not be exactly on his level anymore, the score was 21-15, which was very similar to how all our sets in the past have been in either players favor.

Please keep this in mind, he played against us as a Solo. That helped him a lot when it came to compensating for his damage output, and being able to heal let him get away with a lot more than he would have otherwise. The only thing that I thought was actual bullshit was being able to snap and drag the point back towards him, because I thought the idea of snapping was gaining health in exchange for not killing the point. On top of this solos also have the double snap option, which pretty much gives them just that, but that's a bit different so if you were thinking that don't bring it up.

You have to understand that while Fukua is much more dynamic and has a lot of new tools to pressure the opponent/reset them, a lot of the reset starters do ultimately result in her getting low damage. If a shadow hits me as a starter, she can loop me in her vortex, but her ultimate damage output from it is so low that she would have to reset me 3-5 times depending on each starters. Compare that to everyone else's 2-3.

I don't think any of you guys remember how much better Fukua was in retail, which makes me sad. Her pressure was way more oppressive, her damage output on every starter was good, her reset game was so simple yet killed you in 2 reps, and her max undizzy damage output reset game also killed you ridiculously fast. She had the best don't breathe level 3 in the game, a super on block that was extra difficult to punish, an amazing assist, way better stage control tools that she could combo off of. On top of that it was so boring that no one would want to play the game with her around in a few months, and I'm pretty confident in that belief...

There is a lot of counterplay vs betakua. You can hit the shadows, her drill to fireball super is extra unsafe vs pb, she still has her problems from retail, there is a lot of call outs you can do vs her pressure, and there is a lot of pushblock timings we need to learn and improve on. While I do think she is amazing I don't think she's the same beast she used to be, and I had a lot of fun fighting against Sonic's Fukua.
 
Retail Fukua had access to left/right/airthrow (with no follow up)/anti-mash (other than air supers) off of the M Shadow vortex (she probably has some other resets using M shadow that I don't know about but this is the main one she lost). The new Fukua can do high/lows that are safe vs supers, she can do fast high into low (and vice versa) and she can mixup which side she hits with the shadow as well (the resets Sonic was using also look to be relatively safe to most reversal supers though I'm sure some like Fenrir would beat it). I don't see how you can say retail Fukua's resets are better than beta Fukua's.

Also, you keep saying that this was the best player in the world using Fukua, conveniently avoiding the fact that he was playing vs Sage, a player who is very close to if only slightly below Sonicfox's level. This isn't some rando online Sonic is playing against. + Given that Fukua can mixup the timing of her shadows and whether it is high into low or low into high, etc this is a legit reset where you have to guess, not a gimmick that you can nullify by spending a few seconds in the lab. That means even when players get used to these resets they will still be very strong.
Against sage, the win ratio was like 1.5:1 which is pretty normal from what I've seen in the past. It was against shade where he was dominating. But that's besides the point .

I still think it's still super early to call. I would rather try and guess a high low game like painwheel than guess a front back game like double. But I guess I'm noticing that it's preference based.

I wish sonic would play double or filia and upload it so I can see how the community reacts to those beta characters. Filia is the scariest offensive character
 
I feel kinda bad that losing to Sonic on his stream after he showed me a bunch of new things I've never seen before is causing a lot of this talk to come up. While I might not be exactly on his level anymore, the score was 21-15, which was very similar to how all our sets in the past have been in either players favor.

Please keep this in mind, he played against us as a Solo. That helped him a lot when it came to compensating for his damage output, and being able to heal let him get away with a lot more than he would have otherwise. The only thing that I thought was actual bullshit was being able to snap and drag the point back towards him, because I thought the idea of snapping was gaining health in exchange for not killing the point. On top of this solos also have the double snap option, which pretty much gives them just that, but that's a bit different so if you were thinking that don't bring it up.

You have to understand that while Fukua is much more dynamic and has a lot of new tools to pressure the opponent/reset them, a lot of the reset starters do ultimately result in her getting low damage. If a shadow hits me as a starter, she can loop me in her vortex, but her ultimate damage output from it is so low that she would have to reset me 3-5 times depending on each starters. Compare that to everyone else's 2-3.

I don't think any of you guys remember how much better Fukua was in retail, which makes me sad. Her pressure was way more oppressive, her damage output on every starter was good, her reset game was so simple yet killed you in 2 reps, and her max undizzy damage output reset game also killed you ridiculously fast. She had the best don't breathe level 3 in the game, a super on block that was extra difficult to punish, an amazing assist, way better stage control tools that she could combo off of. On top of that it was so boring that no one would want to play the game with her around in a few months, and I'm pretty confident in that belief...

There is a lot of counterplay vs betakua. You can hit the shadows, her drill to fireball super is extra unsafe vs pb, she still has her problems from retail, there is a lot of call outs you can do vs her pressure, and there is a lot of pushblock timings we need to learn and improve on. While I do think she is amazing I don't think she's the same beast she used to be, and I had a lot of fun fighting against Sonic's Fukua.
OMG THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS. I felt so alone
 
I wish sonic would play double or filia and upload it so I can see how the community reacts to those beta characters. Filia is the scariest offensive character
Double hasn't gained anything in regards to her pressure in the beta so why would it matter if he showed himself playing Double in beta (which he probably has done anyway)? Meanwhile Filia gained airball dash cancelling on block which was near the start of the beta and he has uploaded beta footage of that.

It would be nice if instead of hiding behind the claim "everything looks broken when Sonicfox uses that character" you actually read people's points.

Also high/low or left right are both 50/50s, it really doesn't make any real difference if you know it's coming since you are guessing either way. Plus, beta Fukua is left/right + high/low often in rapid succession.

Edit: Also, people aren't complaining about Fukua's neutral here (the area most affected by player skill), they are talking about her resets which simply require practice in the lab once you know what to do.
 
Double hasn't gained anything in regards to her pressure in the beta so why would it matter if he showed himself playing Double in beta (which he probably has done anyway)? Meanwhile Filia gained airball dash cancelling on block which was near the start of the beta and he has uploaded beta footage of that.

It would be nice if instead of hiding behind the claim "everything looks broken when Sonicfox uses that character" you actually read people's points.

Also high/low or left right are both 50/50s, it really doesn't make any real difference if you know it's coming since you are guessing either way. Plus, beta Fukua is left/right + high/low often in rapid succession.

Edit: Also, people aren't complaining about Fukua's neutral here (the area most affected by player skill), they are talking about her resets which simply require practice in the lab once you know what to do.
Because everytime footage of sonic playing solo, this community goes crazy. So even though there isn't much change to double or filia, I believe sonic has some tech that is crazy that would make people see and quespionage those characters differently.

I am reading people's points. It's just some (not all) points people are wrong or invalid. Sonic didn't dominate Sage with Fukua.

And left right resets just seem harder to see coming but that's just my opinion. I feel like high low seems easier to see coming.

But either way, I don't think either of us are going to convince each other on this beta Fukua. I think she got worse than retail but still viable. That's just my bottom line opinion as a veteran main Fukua player. It's ultimately in the hands of Mike what he wants to do
 
i agree completely that high low is easier than left/right to deal with. Regardless of "see coming", high/low requires you be grounded and therefore have access to reversals that will beat either option. left/right you have to guess the side even if you want to reversal out. the thing is that fukua has both options.

i would be VERY intersted to see if sonic playing solo filia would beat sage playing his duo 21-15, given that both sage and sonic always discuss filia's strengths in the context of assists (her neutral is good because she has bomber, her damage is good because she has LnL, etc.). I also would be interested to see if sonic playing fukua on a team would have a higher or lower winrate vs sage, because I still believe that solo is inherently weaker than teams in this game (even if its not unviable) and I think the amount of work that sonic's fukua could do with assists to back her up would more than compensate for the lost damage/health.

edit:

I don't think any of you guys remember how much better Fukua was in retail, which makes me sad. Her pressure was way more oppressive,

legitimate question, what about her pressure was better in retail? looking through the patch notes the only real change i could find to her pressure was j.hk -> j.hp being +9 instead of +20, was that one change enough to make her pressure way less oppressive?
 
legitimate question, what about her pressure was better in retail? looking through the patch notes the only real change i could find to her pressure was j.hk -> j.hp being +9 instead of +20, was that one change enough to make her pressure way less oppressive?

Yes. Also remember that J.hk could also hit cross up randomly* during pressure.

*It wasn't 100% random since you could make it happen on purpose, but you could also just j.hk without trying and it would cross up unintentionally as well.
 
Hey um
If you are playing a solo match as Beowulf and end Round 1 with Canis Major Press, the delay before Round 2 is called/starts decreases. I doubt this is intentional but it's neat.
 
I would also like to reiterate that Parasoul can also do the whole double-snap-drag-back thing (I'm gonna call it solo snapping from now on cause I'm lazy). I'd imagine any character with access to a delay hit (hence why every character can do it with assists, I know it doesn't necessarily apply here but the concept stands). I would also venture that M shadow isn't the only shadow that can actually keep you flying away. I don't know. I hate fukua personally because I like having fun, but I don't really see an issue with that specifically, (especially cause I do it with solo soul a lot).

I'm going to lab it out and see if I can find out exactly who can and can't do it somehow.
If you want to get rid of it for Parasoul too you could always just speed up bike egret :^), IDK what you're gonna do about tears though

About fukua pressure/mixups, from what I was getting is that she's supposed to be some Carmine/Warachia hybrid thingy. Incredulous mixups with delays summons, and great air buttons and a fireball that stays on the screen for EVVEERR. can't wake up, wake me up inside.
Whereas, other characters can't get essentially free HL/LR mixups from almost anywhere on the screen, and her neutral etc. has been buffed dramatically while taking away something that was busted(boring); I think she's fair especially because pretty much any shadow mix up is scaled and they aren't humanly unblockable. To me, she's still in the upper 7 half of the game in terms of characters at least, especially with an assist.

Personally, I don't see a problem with being able to summon another shadow during one shadows animation. However, as I said before it feels like the character punishes you for using the tool correctly right now. Typically, when you use a move it uses something or costs something but then you have the potential to get a reward for that move (e.g. meter for damage). However, with Fukua it doesn't really do that? Not that it's a terrible idea but why does holding shadow drain health instead of meter per se, or if draining health is supposed to be the downside of holding can it then drain more? Right now it's in a weird spot where you use the move but then hella scaling hits and you're just like " I guess I don't really get anything off this mixup opportunity except another mixup opportunity." Which puts in a weird spot where people complain because she feels noncommittal as all sin, but people feel like she's weak cause the shadows aren't just massive things you can throw around at neutral (but you can???) and they scale everything you get like no (little) damage in most of your main combos.
TL;DR imo shadow snap is fine because Parasoul and probably others can do it (and the characters that can probably just kill you and dead character>health). Balance on the shadows is in a weird spot. I thought fukua was supposed to be retardedly oppressive.
 
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Also can we give Filia a button to press in neutral. Her grounded normals feel very weak.

This. At least, make her c.HP hit the opponent when they are airborn a bit more reliably plz i beg u :'( some combos on some characters (Squigly..) are such a pain just because of the weird hitbox of this move
 
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