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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Considering some people have said they've never even noticed the red flash on counterhit, I say we keep the heart for counterhits.
The indicators make it easier for viewers to know what's going on and can occasionally help the players. Even if they aren't necessary, they're nice to have.
 
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The thing is, as a few of us have pointed out, that red flash isn't visible to everyone.

I have literally never seen it in a match. I don't know what it is, but I just cannot fucking see it.

I sat in training, turned on CH, and still had a hard time seeing it.

No idea what it is. My vision is good. I'm not color blind, but that red flash is rough to see.
 
i can perfectly see the red flash counter hit. but hey if the little broken hearts help people then okay that's good. I would just like an option to turn off the effects in the options menu, just in case someone finds them annoying or distracting from the fight. you know?
 
My goodness, I never had ANY issue with the red flash, even to the point that I find hard to believe people can't see it... but there's some instances like bigband's grab where you can't see it so I like the heart.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
Considering some people have said they've never even noticed the red flash on counterhit, I say we keep the heart for counterhits.
The indicators make it easier for viewers to know what's going on and can occasionally help the players. Even if they aren't necessary, they're nice to have.

Not gonna lie, I can never see the red CH flash with everything else going on.

I only know I have counterhits because I either saw they were doing something, it was a free punish, or I notice within a few chains that undizzy's not building like it normally would.

I don't feel entitled to the bonuses of recognizing CH (i.e. better optimized combos/damage) without the ability to actually do it though. I know Sev, Duck, Skarmand, and others are fully capable of it as it is with just red flash.

Some of it may just be the color though, I never ever miss the green flash on PBGCs no matter what's happening, and red's one of the harder colors for the eye to pick up.
 
Some people have trouble seeing the flash, which is something the one's that can see it (I included) need to understand. If the heart can help these people, and it is unobtrusive, it should be kept.

Throw indicators aren't needed, and suggestions to have an indicator for throw connection are y. It only serves to make throws weaker. Maybe a "you didn't tech" indicator would be fine, since you can't do anything about it at that point. But a "tech now" indicator? no.
 
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Yeah I get the impression that there are still a lot of players who have trouble seeing the flash. I don't have trouble myself but I'm all for things that help people out and make the game a bit flashier.
 
After seeing the positive impact the PBGC flash has had overall, it assuaged a lot of my concerns that PBGC would be a weaker tactic to use if people had a concrete means of identifying why something hit them after the fact. While it's not there in versus play, I actually really like the training mode crossup indicator a lot too and wouldn't mind if that were included in real matches.

After seeing the negative impact throw indicators have on play in UNIEL, holy shit please don't put them in SG unless it's after the tech window has passed.
 
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Hilary said:
I don't feel entitled to the bonuses of recognizing CH (i.e. better optimized combos/damage) without the ability to actually do it though. I know Sev, Duck, Skarmand, and others are fully capable of it as it is with just red flash.
I feel like this a is a really, really good observation. If you've spent time preparing your CH combos, chances are you're also perfectly able to see red flashes. The broken heart isn't adding anything for them, and for the people that aren't looking for red flashes, they probably don't have anyway of capitalizing on them anyway. It's just a gee-whiz thing, at that point.

Spencer said:
The thing is, as a few of us have pointed out, that red flash isn't visible to everyone. I have literally never seen it in a match. I don't know what it is, but I just cannot fucking see it. I sat in training, turned on CH, and still had a hard time seeing it.

No idea what it is. My vision is good. I'm not color blind, but that red flash is rough to see.
I agree that the green flash is WAY more noticeable. I'd prefer a more prominent red flash over the broken heart indicator, though.
 
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Night Phyre said:
I feel like this a is a really, really good observation. If you've spent time preparing your CH combos, chances are you're also perfectly able to see red flashes.

Here is the Double CH combo I've practiced. Despite years of 3S/Tekken confirmation experience and lots of lab/play time in SG, I still don't get to use it unless the CH is really really obvious.


The broken heart isn't adding anything for them, and for the people that aren't looking for red flashes, they probably don't have anyway of capitalizing on them anyway. It's just a gee-whiz thing, at that point.

Just not true. Like I said earlier for the people that can do it, I'm glad they have a reward for their ability, but I don't think it's necessarily an ability that can be honed for anyone/everyone.
 
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dragonos451 said:
Am I the only one who thinks there are enough indicators already?

(I don't think the ones already added were necessary to begin with, btw)
No, you most certainly are not.
 
I'm honestly shocked that people can't distinguish the red counter hit flash when its super obvious to me when it happens. Keep the heart counter hit indicator if it helps people, but I'm genuinely shocked that people don't notice the enemy literally changing color. If you can't notice that, you are probably missing a ton of other stuff while playing.
 
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Colorblind is actually a valid concern that I overlooked.

Now that I think about it, how hard is just the red flash to tell on Eliza's all red color?
 
There's quite a few factors : Enemy color, amount of characters to parse visually, projectiles and items on screen and who's considered in front of everyone else.

I can see it clear as day, but that's only through sheer training. others may have tons of trouble when conditions suck
 
I have no trouble seeing the red flash at all, but it is actually invisible in several cases
- If you get a CH Parasoul Tearshot, the flame effect instantly overrides the CH flash
- When getting a CH Normal-that-detonates-a-Tear it's seeable but far less than normally since for one you expect the opponent to flash now, for two the effect gets overridden quickly
- Several moves instantly catch the opponent in something, making the flash invisible since the body isn't actually on the screen (Eg BB + Peacock ground throw)
- Some chars (eg PW #3) have red palettes; while it is still possible to see the flash on those, it is quite obviously harder
- etc
The broken heart always appears, so all of these "problems" are fixed
Then there are obviously other issues such as red/green blind people, lots of shit going on and not everyone being able to focus their vision perfectly, etc
On top of that, the heart just looks pretty and is entirely unobtrusive. I don't see any reason to remove it.

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Some indicator during the tech window sounds awful to me

Throws sure aren't too good, and that's me saying that --
aka the guy who will lose to people doing Throw-ABC-Throw on repeat

Throws lose to upback (which is the "default" defensive option), to almost every reversal, to teching, and -by virtue of a tech window being present- to things such as downback delay delay tech.
Pretty much the only thing a normal throw actually beats in a game is Downback (and with that, Downback+Assist); and the reward for hitting this is then a 50% scaled combo that generates massive meter for your opponent.

I don't see any reason whatsoever to making them weaker :|

---

However, I think a "You got thrown" indicator would make more sense than Low/OH.

- My thinking process is the following:
If you hold downback and get hit, it was an Overhead. This is kinda easy to see, especially considering you will usually be stuck in 60f+ of the opponent's groundstring, where your char is in hitstun and clearly crouching.
If you hold back/upback and get hit, it was a Low. Same thing applies as above, for one you should know what direction you were holding, for two you see your char getting hit.

- Now you could say "Well the same is true for Throws" and yeah - it is! I don't think these indicators make sense as a whole~
But throws at least are 'special', and an ordeal for beginners to learn/discern; the Throw indicator would basically be a clear "This thing was unblockable" (as else they get hit low by a throw, then try to standblock it next time..)

That may sound really silly to everybody here, but several beginners I have seen try out this game had difficulties figuring out which moves are throws and which just look like ones or don't really look like ones.
A clear indicator for "Excelebella was unblockable as you got hit by it", "This Painwheel L.Buer isn't actually a throw, you could block", "This is Parasoul's ground throw and not some weird special move" etc would help, I'd think. At least more than Low/OH indicators.

In the end I think both aren't very useful, but I do find them rather nice looking, so I'm all for keeping them anyway.

---

Crossup Indicator would definitely be the most useful one by an orgasmic margin (as there I actually do not always know which direction I held), but that is most likely way way wayyyyyyyyyyy harder to do :\
 
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*Me, Girlystyle, and Skarmand start talking about reversals as a reaction to recovery spark at PNW gathering*

ChooseGoose: w-what recovery spark
Skarmand: the visual indicator for when you're in control of your character again
ChooseGoose: I've.. never seen it
Me: in all this time you've never seen the little blue recovery spark
ChooseGoose: It's blue?
Everyone: yeah
ChooseGoose: ｡･ﾟ･（ ﾉД`）･ﾟ･｡
 
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RemiKz said:
I'm honestly shocked that people can't distinguish the red counter hit flash when its super obvious to me when it happens. Keep the heart counter hit indicator if it helps people, but I'm genuinely shocked that people don't notice the enemy literally changing color. If you can't notice that, you are probably missing a ton of other stuff while playing.

Like I said, I'm not colorblind (was tested when I enlisted into the military). I just literally cannot see it. I've no idea if it is just a specific color thing that blends in or something?

I don't generally miss a lot, it is just that as far as I know.

And, I agree with Hilary though. I don't feel entitled to any indicator. I make due just fine without it. My CH combos come from hatred guard so it is an easy indicator for me... did I get hit? If yes, then it is a CH.
 
...There's a recovery spark? So much for my "Oh, maybe I can't see the flash because I tend to pick red palettes" idea. Turns out my eyes are just slow.

Alrighty then.
 
Luweewu said:
Throw indicators aren't needed, and suggestions to have an indicator for throw connection are y. It only serves to make throws weaker. Maybe a "you didn't tech" indicator would be fine, since you can't do anything about it at that point. But a "tech now" indicator? no.
Don't throw animations kind of just scream out "I'm throwing you"? They have entire animations, why add something else to tell players they didn't tech. A "tech now" warning is dumb.
 
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WarpedEcho said:
Don't throw animations kind of just scream out "I'm throwing you"? They have entire animations, why add something else to tell players they didn't tech.
Because not every animation is 100% clear, and there are several animations which sort-of look like throws but aren't ones
Pretty much every hitgrab could be a throw, bonus points for those which sometimes are and sometimes aren't (H.Buer, Excel, A-Train)
You downback and get hit by Pummel Horse .. well now you get the "Wrong Block" indicator, but previously this was by no means clear.

Beowulf has what feels like 30 moves all of which lead into "grab mode" -
and I have no idea which of those are actual throws and which are just hitgrabs;
a "you got thrown" indicator would make learning that a lot faster.

dekillsage said:
There's a recovery spark???
When you exit hitstun after 3+? hits, theres a small blue/white spark in the middle of your character's sprite
It is a "This wasn't a combo, you got reset" thing, except the people who would need it don't see it :#

Again, this is a thing I have never not seen.. but I can understand that some people miss it
 
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There is a recovery spark you can test this in various forms mostly in the air you can test it. it will appear after the hitstun is done.

whether sarcastic or geniunely hopefully you can understand if you set the slowdown to 50% then try the following with filia.

s.hp, j.hp ADC, J.lp (land) just watch the character that got hit and you will see a spark.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Beowulf has what feels like 30 moves all of which lead into "grab mode" -
and I have no idea which of those are actual throws and which are just hitgrabs;
a "you got thrown" indicator would make learning that a lot faster
And going into the lab and trying to learn how Beowulf actually plays would make learning that even faster than that, but we can't ask players to be proactive about that.
 
Dreamepitaph said:
There is a recovery spark you can test this in various forms mostly in the air you can test it. it will appear after the hitstun is done.

whether sarcastic or geniunely hopefully you can understand if you set the slowdown to 50% then try the following with filia.

s.hp, j.hp ADC, J.lp (land) just watch the character that got hit and you will see a spark.
Just do Argus on the dummy.
 
I definitely prefer heart over red flash and wouldnt mind red flash going.
 
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Honestly, I've never notice the red flash. Since the undizzy bar got put in, I just used that to tell when I got a counter hit. It means my counter hit combos aren't completely optimal, but it makes it way easier for me to just do them in situations where it'd be unclear if I got the flash.
 
Since people are still talking about my throw Idea (I was assuming we would move on because no one else liked the idea) I have some more thoughts about the thugs addressed by isa, warped, Hilary, and luweewu. I'm going to wait until I am home from work on an actual keyboard to type them out.


Also what the fuck is this blue spark people are talking about? I have NEVER seen this before.
 
The recovery spark is like white with blue and orange tints. *Shrug*
 
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I don't know how you guys don't notice the red flash. I mean, I'd understand if you guys noticed the flash but wouldn't go into your counter hit combo because you didn't react or were planning on doing something else. But to not notice it at all?
 
The thing I don't understand is how you can say, "I can't even see the red flash when I force Counter-Hits in Training Mode!" and then immediately say, "Take the red flash out because the broken heart fulfills my needs." It's simultaneously spiteful, hypocritical, and illogical.
 
I don't see the broken heart most of the time, because the counter hit flash is the same colour and bigger
Eyes, man
 
Broken Loose said:
The thing I don't understand is how you can say, "I can't even see the red flash when I force Counter-Hits in Training Mode!" and then immediately say, "Take the red flash out because the broken heart fulfills my needs." It's simultaneously spiteful, hypocritical, and illogical.
? The only "Remove red flash" post I notice while skimming through the last two pages is from Mr.X, who didn't ever say anything about not being able to see it. Am I missing something?
 
@everyone
Whether the indicators stay or not isn't really up for debate, same for the red flash.
I like 'em. :^)
You already got hit/thrown/whatever, so they don't impact gameplay all that much, but they DO help new players learn.

Thank you all for your input, move on.

Jason said:
It seems like when you parry the Argus beam in the beta you only parry 2 of the 3 hits now. I think its because of the change in the active frames on the beam? Either way it feels awkward.
Eh? It's way more than 2 hits. Clarify?

Hilary said:
The 1/10 patch had mentioned something about raw tags coming in on the correct side. What was the means of fixing this?
The tagging-out character now will turn around like any normal or special move does. Previously they wouldn't.

@worldjem
You certainly are a cranky old man lately aincha? :^P
 
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Is there any way to make it so Beowulf's throw + assist doesn't make the assist face the wrong direction? I'm assuming it has to do with Beowulf lifting the opponent behind him as the assist comes in so the assist faces back to the direction where the opponent is while being thrown.
 
yeah, there are some assists that do that, kinda annoying and it limits what assists you can use to help combo off of a grab finisher. still feel like ringlet spire is the best assist to convert off of a throw but that's just me.
 
RemiKz said:
Is there any way to make it so Beowulf's throw + assist doesn't make the assist face the wrong direction? I'm assuming it has to do with Beowulf lifting the opponent behind him as the assist comes in so the assist faces back to the direction where the opponent is while being thrown.
Yeah, that's on the list. He's the only one that can do it like he can, so there has to be a special-case solution JUST FOR HIM which is really time consuming.
 
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