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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Mike_Z said:
Though damage is still damage, and upback loses to any low, and I'm not sure what I'd do for command grabs...

Straight upback loses to any low, but because lows are pretty slow in SG compared to other Assist games like mvc2 or umvc3, it's easier to do something like upback->downback on defense to jump away vs startup of throws and if you're stapled to the ground by a low you'll block the low in time.

In conjunction with downback->back throw tech fuzzy to cover earlier low/throw, it makes opening people up with low/throw a bit of an ordeal in SG. Of course, both of these defensive techniques are beatable. Upback->downback loses to super pre-emptive low, air throw, anti-air throw and s.LP~s.LK kara tick throw. Downback->back throw tech loses to IADs, delayed lows, command grabs, and spaced downback+assist.

The issue is that upback->downback survives against what downback->back throw tech survives against and vice versa, and neither of them lose to straight up ground throws. Ground throws either require a lot of conditioning to set up, or a really surprising situation.

The most consistent way to land ground throws vs people who use these defensive techniques is with s.LP~Kara cancel s.LK throw, or running up at neutral vs someone who's doing downback+assist. The first option is only available if your character can chain their s.LP to their s.LK, so Parasoul and Double at least can't do it. Cerebella doesn't count here because she can cancel any normal into any of her command grabs as a tick throw.

I think command grabs are in a pretty good place right now, with Bella's qcf grab being faster than others and less punishable, her qcb throw reaching several character lengths for great punishing/footsies/conditioning people to jump at that rang. Fukua has the only multiple-hit armoured command grab, and her other command grab is still cancelable from any normal, and is still untechable. Big Band's command grab mostly capitalises on players being paranoid of his anti-air grabs either to set up oki or as a character killer with commandgrab->ssj->HK Step->ssj.

The biggest thing is that command grabs beat downback->back throw tech, so the fear of that removes it as an option in players heads, making players you're up against decide instead between upback->downback and downback, leading to a stronger low/throw mixup game.

I can't think of a way to make ground throws more useful utility-wise, without shortening the tech window, but I don't think that would be desirable for the game since they're not breakable on reaction anyway. Therefore, I think the damage scaling on ground throws should scale to a higher percentage for more damage.

If this ends up with normal grabs leading to more damage on average then command grabs, then that is fine since characters with command grabs would then choose between damage or untechability. No-one techs Cerebella's ground throws anyway due to the aformentioned paranoia of eating a command grab or low.
 
dekillsage said:
Doubles is a combo ender and a decent reversal(can't combo off it other than car)
Wait, car connects after nightmare legion?
 
@ShadeMoneh An 11 frame low makes for pretty crappy point blank low-based mixups. It's good for distance, but having a 6f low and dashing for 5 frames beforehand achieves basically the same thing, with the benefit of being better for point blank low mixups.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
PLEASE correct anything.
Kay! Someone somewhere is going to have the slowest overhead, comparison between characters is largely irrelevant. It's still FUKUA's fastest overhead, for example.

Also, you get the same mixup after a BFF that you used to after super fireball, so it has a use there. And it has a use at midrange if you scare your opponent, because your entire post completely ignores conditioning. Although it does hit a little slow after it's released...
 
Mike_Z said:
Kay! Someone somewhere is going to have the slowest overhead, comparison between characters is largely irrelevant. It's still FUKUA's fastest overhead, for example.

Also, you get the same mixup after a BFF that you used to after super fireball, so it has a use there. And it has a use at midrange if you scare your opponent, because your entire post completely ignores conditioning. Although it does hit a little slow after it's released...

oh no no no please i did not mean to ignore conditioning. i understand that about the conditioning but if i may be allowed to say my last words regarding the move.

most times though the use of H shadow after BFF isn't even the mixup. its actually the post mixup of having block AND pushblock H shadow if you meaty it.

For me since you dealt the same damage to all shadows to lessen her combo damage. i don't find any incentive to throw out H shadow especially with a 30f startup and this long time to for her karate chop to become active. When i could Cmd throw or even armor throw on a hard read as well.

I dunno mike at the end of the day if you feel the move has an incentive that it doesn't need another adjustment and that Fukua players should use it then i'll try to find it. since...well... you created this character when you could've just......scrapped it.
I thank you. I'll just keep playing.

Edit: I was just explaining to spencer why fukua players may not like the change(me included). conditioning or not this is just how my scrub self feels about the move. i may continue to always wonder why and at the end of the day i may be stuck with this change so i'll learn.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
i don't find any incentive to throw out H shadow when i could Cmd throw or even armor throw on a hard read as well.
Last I checked, command throws don't reach half screen and can't hit someone blocking an assist...maybe it's because you're for some reason trying to use it at point blank?
Throws also scale your followup, whereas shadow doesn't.

I guess I have a problem with "I never use it because it doesn't work in the situations I try to use it" vs "it is useless everywhere".
The existence of overhead shadow is what makes low shadow ever likely to hit, for example. If she had a low and two mids you would never hit with any of them.
Or if she had another thing that was an overhead and was faster then you could say it was useless, but she doesn't.
 
Mike_Z said:
Last I checked, command throws don't reach half screen and can't hit someone blocking an assist...maybe it's because you're for some reason trying to use it at point blank?
Throws also scale your followup, whereas shadow doesn't.

I guess I have a problem with "I never use it because it doesn't work in the situations I try to use it" vs "it is useless everywhere".
The existence of overhead shadow is what makes low shadow ever likely to hit, for example. If she had a low and two mids you would never hit with any of them.

Or if she had another thing that was an overhead and was faster then you could say it was useless, but she doesn't.

Well i thought that would be the case. the problem was that when people ran up and ducked low i tested H shadow on many

occasions and by the time the karate chop went active they went into standing block.

i've tried all sorts of approaches from random shadow emissions to constantly doing a certain shadow then using H shadow. no matter what i did the opponent would block it 100% of the time same went to any other fukua player i tried to ask to see if i could gain insight, but the result was the same.

or tried by the time H shadow came out it was blocked, mashed out( was still able to block funny enough since i meatied on knockdown) or upback due to shadows not causing pre-block and the upback change.

Shadows may not scale the combo but if H shadow doesn't even hit then there's no real combo to go on.

the most i've ever seen other fukua's in beta use H shadow is for a Pummel horse like combo extension.

i'm very poor with words but i'm trying and will continue to try and use the move as the current change as is and hopefully find a way to write a detailed report on methods to using this move, Like i said mike i'm happy you kept the character in the game.
So i won't say my thoughts on the move anymore, its already done. I'm tired and its 3:49 as we speak. Have a nice night mike.

Edit: P.S i edited my previous post since i was talking about the karate chop becoming active. sorry if i annoyed you.
 
@Dreamepitaph

Pw cr.hp fully charged is the slowest overhead in the game 15(18)7 for a total of 40 frames before it hits.

Its highly disengenuous for me to use that as an end all example though since the telegraph for cr.hp is much less pronounced than the telegraph for H clone. The telegraph for cr.hp starts when the armor starts to charge which is after 16 frames. Then you take into account the rest of cr.hp startup and pw cr.hp is about 25 frames of telegraph... But again, since cr.hp doesnt go airborn its still a harder to see telegraph than H clone since H clone gets airborn.

The point?

The speed of h clone isnt the problem. Its the difference in timing from the low L clone and the high H clone after the cancel. The cancel is easy to see and after that all the opponent has to do is block low for a certain amount of frames, then switch to a high block after the low timing has passed.

THATS the reason why H clone is easy to block. Theres only two ways to get around this:


Dont use H clone and L clone mixup off of cancels since the cancel telegraphs the place to timing option select it down (in other words use it raw not on cancel) or use H clone in a different way other than a mixup, such as use an assist then H clone or do H clone plus assist while your fireball is comng back to you.

Another way to pump up H clone wouldnt be to speed it up, it would be to SLOW DOWN L clone so that L clone and H clone hit around the same time after the cancel, thereby taking away the timing option select and forcing people to use the visual cue instead... Which will be much harder to do.

But... Of course this is unlikely to happen since people would see it as a nerf to fukuas blockstring game, which it would be, but wont see it as a buff for her mixup game... Which it would be.


Also... I dont really see why fukua needs the high/low in the first place when she has a very viable low/throw as well as keepaway game, crazy resets and great damage.
 
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No BGM today, the Patch Notes BGM Quartet is on break.

Double
- c.WK 11f->8f, dmg 325->200; s.WK 11f->8f; s.MP 13f->12f.
- Lv3 now causes sliding knockdown on the last hit. Not sure I like it, but we can try.
Eliza
- Horace being hit is correctly counted as VO instead of SFX. Thanks Skarmand.
Fukua
- H Shadow +4f hitpause on hit, meant to do this before; -3f startup before attack can begin at minimum range; -1f startup during attack; attack triggers from slightly farther away from opponent to prevent some instances of dashing through it.
Painwheel
- Toned down the last stage of flashing on Install.
Valentine
- Dead On Arrival minimum scaling increased, minimum damage is now 2750, 2250 was pretty small; post-flash startup shortened, now hits 8f earlier (still blockable after the flash), still travels the same distance.
- At the end of Dead On Arrival, you can hold a Punch button as Valentine snaps her glove to load one level of Type A/B/C poison. Holding nothing upgrades whatever you have if you already have some poison, or gives you one Type A if you don't have any.

And now, back to working on Beowulf...
http://steamcommunity.com/games/208610/announcements/detail/195113962394555738
 
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2/2 Beta Update
Double
- c.WK 11f->8f, dmg 325->200; s.WK 11f->8f; s.MP 13f->12f.
- Lv3 now causes sliding knockdown on the last hit. Not sure I like it, but we can try.
Eliza
- Horace being hit is correctly counted as VO instead of SFX. Thanks Skarmand.
Fukua
- H Shadow +4f hitpause on hit, meant to do this before; -3f startup before attack can begin at minimum range; -1f startup during attack; attack triggers from slightly farther away from opponent to prevent some instances of dashing through it.
Painwheel
- Toned down the last stage of flashing on Install.
Valentine
- Dead On Arrival minimum scaling increased, minimum damage is now 2750, 2250 was pretty small; post-flash startup shortened, now hits 8f earlier (still blockable after the flash), still travels the same distance.
- At the end of Dead On Arrival, you can hold a Punch button as Valentine snaps her glove to load one level of Type A/B/C poison. Holding nothing upgrades whatever you have if you already have some poison, or gives you one Type A if you don't have any.

And now, back to working on Beowulf...

Double c.LK is 8f now? Need to try that

EDIT: imtooslow
 
LOL good lord, Dead On Arrival buffs.
Oh I'm laughing but I sure as hell ain't gonna complain about it.
 
nice Val's lvl 3 looks to be a lot stronger now. don't know about the vial load after the super is finished but what the hey, this is beta let's experiment.
 
Does it seem to anyone else like the hatred install sound effect isn't really synchronized with the flashing? This was probably always the case, if so
 
zeknife said:
Does it seem to anyone else like the hatred install sound effect isn't really synchronized with the flashing? This was probably always the case, if so
It isn't, and never was. :^P
 
doesnt doubles c.lk reach quite far already? idk about 8f, maybe like 10f if anything but 8f is a huge buff
 
Mike_Z said:
It isn't, and never was. :^P
It's more noticeable now that they both change speed, I think
 
Did I miss something or the second hit from c.HP without chair is not supposed to be cancellable into Dead Arm Time? Because it is, and is also linkable after the second hit. I thought chairless c.HP was supposed to be unlinkable with supers as stated by Mike. Was this changed?
 
ArgonBern said:
Did I miss something or the second hit from c.HP without chair is not supposed to be cancellable into Dead Arm Time? Because it is, and is also linkable after the second hit. I thought chairless c.HP was supposed to be unlinkable with supers as stated by Mike. Was this changed?
It was always like that.

edit: by "that" I mean what it is now, it was always cancellable and linkable. Nothing changed.
 
ArgonBern said:
Did I miss something or the second hit from c.HP without chair is not supposed to be cancellable into Dead Arm Time? Because it is, and is also linkable after the second hit. I thought chairless c.HP was supposed to be unlinkable with supers as stated by Mike. Was this changed?
You can cancel it into supers, but not into specials.
 
Speaking of chairless c.HP, I've been meaning to ask, is it supposed to launch lighter characters higher? I thought all launchers got standardized at some point but that one definitely still launches characters different heights based on weight.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Speaking of chairless c.HP, I've been meaning to ask, is it supposed to launch lighter characters higher? I thought all launchers got standardized at some point but that one definitely still launches characters different heights based on weight.
That was reverted along with the superjump changes
 
mcpeanuts said:
Speaking of chairless c.HP, I've been meaning to ask, is it supposed to launch lighter characters higher? I thought all launchers got standardized at some point but that one definitely still launches characters different heights based on weight.

Pretty sure all lauchers work the same regardless of who you're launching. Weight affects falling speed.
 
What @zeknife said. Mike didn't mention it in the notes when it was removed, but it was removed with superjumps.
 
It seems like when you parry the Argus beam in the beta you only parry 2 of the 3 hits now. I think its because of the change in the active frames on the beam? Either way it feels awkward.
 
The 1/10 patch had mentioned something about raw tags coming in on the correct side. What was the means of fixing this?

Basically just curious if it had something to do with dashing raw tag inertia a la:

 
I've been using alpha counters a lot lately, and since nobody seems to have said anything about that change made a while ago...
Alpha counters themselves: The success rate of them getting me out of trouble is still low. Which is fine.
Alpha counter straight into a super: Success rate of getting out has definitely been better compared to retail. Which, considering it takes 2 bars to do that and I still need to make sure they committed to a move, is nice.
 
Then there's watching amabane and Fairy play


Alpha counters into Peacock throw: HAHHAHAHAHA DAMN SON
 
ClarenceMage said:
Throw indicators would make throws more reactable, and I for one don't want throws to be a low-damage, low-success option.
Fair enough. I like reactable throws.

The consensus from players of all levels, however, is overwhelmingly against easier throw teching. I don't want it in the game if nobody else is going to like it.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
Throw indicators would make throws more reactable, and I for one don't want throws to be a low-damage, low-success option.

Agreed to an extent. Throws in this game are brutal strong (stronger than any other fighter I play), and I really don't think an indicator would have too much of an effect. Of course, I think an indicator for it is utterly unnecessary.
 
Dolfinh said:
Is there any possibility of throw indicators? I feel that some kind of visual cue during the tech window (a la persona/bb) would be really helpful.

I think the broken heart icon should be used for getting thrown instead of on CH. It's redundant to have both a red flash and an icon for one thing.

It could be like: get thrown = heart appears > if you don't tech = Heart breaks.
 
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worldjem said:
I think the broken heart icon should be used for getting thrown instead of on CH. It's redundant to have both a red flash and an icon for one thing.

It could be like: get thrown = heart appears > if you don't tech = Heart breaks.

give this man a cookie.

I agree with this.
 
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