Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

[Mike_Z]

The old method was a bug, as well as inconsistent behavior. And since you can still do it the same way you can always call assists, like P~K or K~P, having both things happen is as possible as it used to be.

One thing I would like to ask you is about Meter Gain for the person getting hit. At the last NorCal local we were talking about how the person getting hit generates so much meter.
Is there any chance of you tweaking this?

Nope!
They only generate "so much meter" if you do long combos, since meter gain scales up over the course of a combo.
That's intended, and is one of the things that decreases the utility of longer combos relative to resets. I spent a long time looking at values.

Let's compare!

Left: Losing an entire healthbar to Filia's short resets, [c.LK->s.HP /\ j.HK airdash j.LK->j.MP \/ then reset with either IAD j.LK or c.LK]xN gives you about 1/3 of a bar.
Center: Losing an entire healthbar to Filia's [c.LK->c.MK(all)->s.HP /\ j.HP->j.HK xx HK ball, dash j.LP->j.HP \/ s.LP->s.MP->s.HP /\ j.MP(all)->j.HP->j.HK xx HK ball] gives you 1+2/3 bars.
Right: Losing an entire healthbar to Cerebella's [c.LK->c.MK /\ j.MP->j.HK \/ c.MP->c.HP /\ j.LPx3->j.HP \/ s.LP->c.MP->s.HK xx Copter xx Dynamo, c.LK->c.MP->s.HK xx Copter xx Dynamo] gives you 1+4/5 bars but costs Cerebella 4. Mashing the j.LP for both combos gives them well over 2 bars while only adding a few hundred damage to the combo.

Left is 3 chances to react (3k each time = 4 times + finish the combo), middle is 2 chances (4.8k each time), right is one chance (over 8k each time).
I think the tradeoff between only having one chance to properly react and gaining a ton of meter is fine, and the tradeoff between using more hits to confirm and giving the opponent more meter is also fine.

If people reset slightly more often or optimized for damage slightly less, they could deny the opponent a lot of meter.
For example, Valentine doing s.LPx3->s.LK->s.MPx2->s.MK->s.HKx3 at max scaling gives the opponent about half a bar for 790ish extra damage. I consider that not a good tradeoff, yet people do it all the time anyway. s.LPx2->c.MK->s.HP does 355 dmg and gives the opponent about 1/8th of a bar, for comparison. Half the extra damage for 1/4th the generated meter.
Perhaps it's a good idea to optimize for meter? :^)

[edit]
As a practical example, if you do short resets it is completely possible to kill an entire team of 3 without giving them one full bar of meter, which means as soon as they spend one bar to escape a reset they don't get another super. Whereas in most of the matches I see, one or more of the players generates 5 bars commonly.

[edit 2]
Also worth noting is that the attacker's meter gain scales down over the course of a combo, so the Left and Center examples above actually generate about the same amount of meter for the attacker over a healthbar, whereas the victim gets vastly different amounts.

(If you think that's a lot of meter for getting hit, check out MvC2. Look at P2's meter here, for example - over 1 level for being hit by one move. Heh.
As a result of that, I learned to give opponents meter on purpose, because it makes them more predictable about using supers at neutral, and if you know how to beat their super, you can use that to your advantage. If it's predictable, you can use ANYTHING to your advantage.)

 

[Mr. X]

That post can be it's own thread/front page article.

@d3v

 

[Mike_Z]

That post can be it's own thread/front page article.

@Flotilla
I ain't writin' it. :^P

But like I said, I thought a LOT about how all the different systems in previous games worked, and SG is the result of that. If something seems weird, there's a reason for it.

 

[Mr. X]

@Flotilla
I ain't writin' it. :^P

But like I said, I thought a LOT about how all the different systems in previous games worked, and SG is the result of that. If something seems weird, there's a reason for it.

I post/write articles for the front page too...

 

[Mike_Z]

I post/write articles for the front page too...

I'm gettin' old, I forget these things. :^)

 

[Spencer]

As a practical example, if you do short resets it is completely possible to kill an entire team of 3 without giving them one full bar of meter, which means as soon as they spend one bar to escape a reset they don't get another super. Whereas in most of the matches I see, one or more of the players generates 5 bars commonly.

This is actually pretty interesting and definitely worth considering for me...

Out of curiosity, does this approach lend itself to favoring some character over others? A character like Filia with crazy reset potential vs a character with less reset potential? And if so, how do you guys factor that in to balance a character?

 

[Mr. X]

This is actually pretty interesting and definitely worth considering for me...

Out of curiosity, does this approach lend itself to favoring some character over others? A character like Filia with crazy reset potential vs a character with less reset potential? And if so, how do you guys factor that in to balance a character?

What character doesn't have crazy reset potential though?

 

[Spencer]

That's certainly a fair thing to say, and maybe that's the case.

I'm just asking in the case that some are better at it than others.

For example, PW can reset at literally any point in the string. Filia has these tiny phenomenal strings that are border-line to react to. Others have more predictable reset paths (Double I think might be a good example).

 

[Mr. X]

That's certainly a fair thing to say, and maybe that's the case.

I'm just asking in the case that some are better at it than others.

For example, PW can reset at literally any point in the string. Filia has these tiny phenomenal strings that are border-line to react to. Others have more predictable reset paths (Double I think might be a good example).

Double resets all day though even if it seems like she doesn't have the same potential as Filia.

 

[WarpedEcho]

Double resets all day though even if it seems like she doesn't have the same potential as Filia.

Double has great meaty and setplay value via sliding knockdown + birdie, single hit barrels, and tech chase with sweep xx flesh step into OS button dash. Most double players only really use crossunders and air throw, but she has a lot more than that.

 

[Dime]

I think its less about crazy reset potential and more about optimal reset starters. Filia is tops with her ability to get a crossup or non crossup optimal starter. She doesnt even need to go low or throw.

Whereas painwheel up until very recently was very limited in the optimal starter category because most of painwheels optimal starters are high attacks that are very easy to react block. Therfor pw needs to abuse throws (inoptimal starter) j.hk crossups (inoptimal starter) and assist mixups (inoptimal starter)
Because of this, pw and other characters that struggle with optimal starters usually REALLY WANT to take optimally started combo to full undizzy to take advantage of the big 1 off damage.


But, pw now has a very good set of optimal starters in her charged overhead and low attacks.

Another consideration is pws good neutral in the beta as compared to filias slightly less good neutral..and apply that to all matchups. So maybe it isnt that bad that some characters struggle with optimal starters if they have better neutrals to make up for needing to reset a bit more than characters whos neutral s slightly worse.

 

[NekoGamerX]

after the new beta update does the game run slow and lag for anyone else?

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

Meter gain stuff

This is super interesting and helpful. I will definitely keep this in mind when coming up with setplay and resets. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

 

[Mike_Z]

This is super interesting and helpful. I will definitely keep this in mind when coming up with setplay and resets. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

No problemo.

 

[Swiftfox-Dash]

I'm pretty sure this has been asked for at least once before but is a sound test sort of thing ever a possibility? I only ask because I know there are dozens of lines I never get to hear or have missed. It would be nice to hear all the sound clips for characters.

 

[Mike_Z]

I'm pretty sure this has been asked for at least once before but is a sound test sort of thing ever a possibility? I only ask because I know there are dozens of lines I never get to hear or have missed. It would be nice to hear all the sound clips for characters.

Due to the way loading stuff works, it's pretty much only possible to implement something like that inside a match, so the only conceivable way to do it would be like, pause -> p1's first character sound test -> sample 0 - N, play.

 

[Swiftfox-Dash]

I'd honestly be more than content with that. As things are now, when I want to try and hear the new intros/crumple KO lines/tag in-out/victory quotes etc, I go back and forth between Versus and training mode, changing the characters and the like. Which while not exactly the most time consuming thing, it is a bit of a hassle. Especially when the character doesn't want to say their specialized quote until the 8th restart.

 

[Mike_Z]

I'd honestly be more than content with that. As things are now, when I want to try and hear the new intros/crumple KO lines/tag in-out/victory quotes etc, I go back and forth between Versus and training mode, changing the characters and the like. Which while not exactly the most time consuming thing, it is a bit of a hassle. Especially when the character doesn't want to say their specialized quote until the 8th restart.

That's also you being mildly obsessive. :^)

 

[gskie8c5o8]

> MsFortune
> - Headless airdash height limit -2f. Was +4f from head-on, now is +2f from head-on.

thank you mikez.
i like it.

 

[K.Radical]

That makes me realize that i should go back to the tutorial for defense/reaction option, for long i thought when i was stuck in a combo my only option were to either let it finish or react when the green bar is full...that's quite a relief!

 

[alexpi]

That's also you being mildly obsessive. :^)

You Skullplayers just don't understand our Skullfan ways

 

[WarpedEcho]

What do you guys think about being able to super inside of hitstop from an opposing character's countersuper if you Alpha Countered in with a character? I mean, you're still spending the bar, so it' almost like a DHC I guess? Idk, just a thought.

 

[SonicFox]

Theres still that alpja counter glitch where the game freaks out too :(

 

[alexpi]

What do you guys think about being able to super inside of hitstop from an opposing character's countersuper if you Alpha Countered in with a character? I mean, you're still spending the bar, so it' almost like a DHC I guess? Idk, just a thought.

I'd be a fan of trying it. AC is already super under used.

 

[Cadenza]

so that means i can AC even more like an idiot? S I G N M E U P

 

[mcpeanuts]

What do you guys think about being able to super inside of hitstop from an opposing character's countersuper if you Alpha Countered in with a character? I mean, you're still spending the bar, so it' almost like a DHC I guess? Idk, just a thought.

I think it would make alpha counters a lot more useful. Maybe too useful? Like if I have two bars and Big Band as my next character how exactly are you ever going to pressure me. Basically what I'm saying is, do this, it has no drawbacks.

 

[alexpi]

Bitch, I AC into Drag n Bite. Get on my retard level

 

[Jason]

I think it would make alpha counters a lot more useful. Maybe too useful? Like if I have two bars and Big Band as my next character how exactly are you ever going to pressure me. Basically what I'm saying is, do this, it has no drawbacks.

How about throws?

 

[Zevak]

So on the discussion of M or H pinion, @Spencer said what I wanted to say, but I do want to point out a nice universal use of beta H pinion. It's a really nice alpha counter because it's both fast, horizontal, and PW gets a free punish combo on a lot of "safe" things.

Oh and Domo got to see this first because PW/BB privilege

 

[Jason]

So on the discussion of M or H pinion, @Spencer said what I wanted to say, but I do want to point out a nice universal use of beta H pinion. It's a really nice alpha counter because it's both fast, horizontal, and PW gets a free punish combo on a lot of "safe" things.

Oh and Domo got to see this first because PW/BB privilege

Pretty sure that Double can cancel Shot into Car to beat that for free.

Works well against characters who don't have good reversal supers though.

 

[Zevak]

Pretty sure that Double can cancel Shot into Car to beat that for.

I think it might have been after her cancel window, I'll test it when I get back home though.

 

[RemiKz]

Not sure about the others, but I know Eliza can punish the alpha counter with a lvl 3 on reaction and Double can punish with car super on reaction to the alpha counter as well.

Almost sure Peacock should be able to argus from that distance on reaction as well.

 

[Mwisk]

That got me thinking now: should alpha counters have their own invincibility, added to whatever move is next? That might be too good, but also makes having more meter extra dangerous, some funny dhc "defense" scenarios will probably pop up too. Dunno, just throwing it out.

 

[mcpeanuts]

That got me thinking now: should alpha counters have their own invincibility, added to whatever move is next?

I thought they already worked like that? @Broken Loose

 

[Dime]

Just about any character that has an invincible super can cancel and beat alpha counters on reaction except in very specific circumstances.

Because alpha counters dont have the same unblockable hitstop that regular supers have.

That is, unless this has changed recently in the beta or something, its hard to keep up with all the changes when im not really playing the game like i used to.

 

[RemiKz]

Just about any character that has an invincible super can cancel and beat alpha counters on reaction except in very specific circumstances.

Because alpha counters dont have the same unblockable hitstop that regular supers have.

That is, unless this has changed recently in the beta or something, its hard to keep up with all the changes when im not really playing the game like i used to.

Something about alpha counters changed, dont remember what exactly, but I can definitely still reaction super some alpha counters in beta

 

[IsaVulpes]

IIRC the Superflash for ACs got shortened slightly, so they come out sooner after you do the input, making them slightly harder to react to.

 

[Broken Loose]

I thought they already worked like that? @Broken Loose

Nope! However, they don't have forced assist vulnerability when they land, so you can AC into a meaty with a move with invuln startup and it'll actually work.

 

[Zevak]

Now that I'm home, I made did make a mistake in that video, I didn't realize how large double's cancel window is. I don't think Peacock can Argus on reaction though because when the last hit of BBB is blocked, she passes her cancel window. Then again, notice how I said "I don't think", can we get an alpha counter training mode option like the pushblock option where you can choose when the computer's going to pushblock?

 

[Mike_Z]

can we get an alpha counter training mode option like the pushblock option where you can choose when the computer's going to pushblock?

Not a bad idea.

And no, ACs will not be getting unaffected by hitstop, although they kindasorta already aren't.