• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

dekillsage said:
I don't think this is true???
Nice quote tags.

I can't really use Lenny the same way now, I use it when I think the mixup is low/throw but I'm not sure which one it's gonna be. A low now always beats Lenny unless their setup blows or they time it wrong. I agree with you that it's still a good move though.
 
mcpeanuts said:
Nice quote tags.

I can't really use Lenny the same way now, I use it when I think the mixup is low/throw but I'm not sure which one it's gonna be. A low now always beats Lenny unless their setup blows or they time it wrong.
Good!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Woofly, Mr Peck and zarkingphoton
mcpeanuts said:
Give 4 vulnerable startup frames to Beowulf's anti air super imo

Guess no one has gone to training mode to figure out how to beat this yet!
 
  • Like
Reactions: b0nk
But McPeanuts, it's Potemkin's Super, if it had the start up frames then no one will ever use it to get out of an opponent's pressure. Lol nah I kinda find Beo's AA super a little too good so maybe something that could be added to make it so the opponent can try to do something if a Beo trys to mash out of the corner.
 
KoopaParatroopa said:
I'm sorry if this isn't the spot to post it, but I found an error in Wulf's tutorial. It says that Neaegling Knee Lift (K during grab mode) is done by pressing any Punch in grab mode.

In addition, I screwed up the final tutorial but it passed me anyway. I built up 2 Hype levels but I went straight from the Slam to Da Grendel Killa without doing the Diving Wulfdog.
CaioLugon said:
In the IPS tutorial filia didn't do a combo that I could break???

and in Beowulf's tutorial it says knee is done with punches and that you have to do direction + kick to follow up from blitzer when you can also use punch

Thank you! I will fix that stuff today.
 
Ninja said:
But McPeanuts, it's Potemkin's Super, if it had the start up frames then no one will ever use it to get out of an opponent's pressure. Lol nah I kinda find Beo's AA super a little too good so maybe something that could be added to make it so the opponent can try to do something if a Beo trys to mash out of the corner.

Too good? Unless you have hype the reward for landing it is barely anything and if it doesn't hit all you did was get out. And that doesn't even happen if you know how to actually bait that super. Yes its GOOD, but too good? Come on lol. Also note that it is a ground super, meaning he STILL has the weaknesses of every character without an air super in that you could just reset him in the air and avoid him ever being able to use it. Some characters(example, cerebella) will just hit him or super him out of the super, so its not like it can't be punished at all.

Lenny you needed to air reset to avoid, bait the super and make sure you avoided the potential dhc, pay attention to lenny health if you did get a punish to avoid hurting yourself. As a reversal, they are very similar (at least to me they are). The difference is I can't fullscreen hit confirm with beowulfs AA super, I can't kill an assists health with 2 bar in 5 seconds with beowulfs AA super, I can't randomly throw it out at neutral to change how the match has to be played with beowulfs AA super. They aren't comparable in terms of utility, which is why it was nice that lenny got start up.

tldr; I disagree strongly good sir
 
  • Like
Reactions: ClarenceMage and zarkingphoton
I made a list of ways to counter Beo anti air super

Filia's Fenrir Drive punishes it
Eliza's lvl 3 punishes into full combo. 1 bar for 3.
Bella's dynamo doesn't work. It hits until the last blow, that whiffs weirdly.
Fukua's drill of my dreams punishes it. Lvl 3 too, leads to full combo.
SSJ punishes it, but he's fullscreen anyway.
Double's lvl 5 punishes it. Car completely whiffs
Squigly can LK+HK SBO and punish into full combo.
Fortune can lvl 3.
Peacock, Painwheel and Valentine have no choice against it, but at least it's an advantage to have him fullscreen away with Peacock.

edit: Dynamo on reaction whiffs the last hit, if he's cornered. If you delay a little, you hit all the dynamo, but can only confirm with something like H bypass.
 
CaioLugon said:
All multihit attacks are like that


Robo fortunes hp laser currently cant be pushblocked at all in the middle. Meaning that the pushblock wont even happen. Not that the pushblock happens but the opponent doesnt get pushed out like how normal sg multihits work against pushblocks done in the middle or beginning of multihits.

This basically means that her laser cant currently be pbgcd through. You have to pushblock the last hit which will push her away and result in loss of frame advantage.
@Mr. X
Probably a simple oversight in her coding since beam structures are new to sg... Someone should @mike about it so he can fix it next patch if that isnt how its supposed to work
 
Dime_x said:
Robo fortunes hp laser currently cant be pushblocked at all in the middle. Meaning that the pushblock wont even happen. Not that the pushblock happens but the opponent doesnt get pushed out like how normal sg multihits work against pushblocks done in the middle or beginning of multihits.
Oh, I thought that was the case, my bad
 
TechPowah said:
Would it be too silly to try a timer for Double's LV. 5 on her Tension bar like there is for Band's Satchmo song timer? It would help a lot to see how much time I have left for Gradius shenanigans.

That's actually a good idea. Could we do that for Catheads/Installs and other similar supers that might show up in the game? Is a cool way of informing without adding bars. But I wonder how doable is it for supers that aren't Lv 5s.

EDIT: Nah, ignore what I've just said. For non-lv 5 supers, the gained meter would confuse where the original super started.... guess we still need extra bars... unless... we went the mvc3 route and locked meter gain during those types of supers. Which wouldn't be that bad in some cases... (ahem, Catheads)

/raisesthedoubleflameshield
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Tank, WarpedEcho and Kai
in my mind's eye it would look kinda weird when cat heads has the meter timer and you have un-even amount of meter. but hey let's try it cause my brain could be wrong.

ed: also what about dhc's cause a dhc-ed cat head still has the same amount of time as the super done just on it's own.
 
Colossi said:
I made a list of ways to counter Beo anti air super

Filia's Fenrir Drive punishes it
Eliza's lvl 3 punishes into full combo. 1 bar for 3.
Bella's dynamo doesn't work. It hits until the last blow, that whiffs weirdly.
Fukua's drill of my dreams punishes it. Lvl 3 too, leads to full combo.
SSJ punishes it, but he's fullscreen anyway.
Double's lvl 5 punishes it. Car completely whiffs
Squigly can LK+HK SBO and punish into full combo.
Fortune can lvl 3.
Peacock, Painwheel and Valentine have no choice against it, but at least it's an advantage to have him fullscreen away with Peacock.

edit: Dynamo on reaction whiffs the last hit, if he's cornered. If you delay a little, you hit all the dynamo, but can only confirm with something like H bypass.

:^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^)

If someone supers your super, super 'em right in the super!
Super!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fumako, Scatmon, SkullMan and 6 others
Yeah 4 frames isn't all that easy to punish.
 
Spencer said:
Yeah 4 frames isn't all that easy to punish.
Easier to set it up with a magic series that you know doesn't combo.

For example Parasoul 2LP 2HK will leave a 1F gap that will punish Super Sonic Jazz, L Beat Extend and H/M (Brass or Train), even if it's a first frame input (Which would be 5? frames because of reversal window)
 
  • Like
Reactions: GrunkleBarlowe and Spencer
dekillsage said:
Still works for everything except being a godlike reversal you can always do! Honestly you might be able to use it the same kinda, just now you have to keep in mind the start up you need to go through first.
Well technically if peacock is on her own or only has 1 bar(no dhc option) it doesn't do much in terms of a reversal. In that situation if you are already going to hit me, I get hit and comboed. Also while most don't know how to do it you can combo in such a way that peacock then blows up or you avoid the explosion. (Like excellabella). Not saying lenny isn't useful but I wouldn't say it is a "godlike reversal you can always do". Cloudking has been doing a good job baiting me out and one fortune user got around the lenny into argus while cornered defense twice, back to back. I was sad.

Anyways I have not tested it yet but I'm sure losing the one move she had that was fully startup invincible hurts in various ways. Also I'm typing all this from my phone and it's so irksome ugh...
 
I mean, Peacock still has one invincible move, and it's one of the best in the game. It's to not let your opponent in in the first place. She has all the tools she needs to do that and more.

Sorry, I've been bottling this one in for a while.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spencer
Are you talking about the throw invincible LP Bang? Or the strike invincible MP Bang? Or the teleport that also has some actual invincibility? Because heaven forbid a zoner should have to make a guess about which reversal to use when somebody finally makes it up close.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spencer
Ah the good ol' Peacock reversal fight. It seems like just yesterday...
 
B.T.W. I like the change to Robo Fortune's weight. Comboing her feels a lot more natural now.

I sort of thought I would hate the change to her j.HK but messing around with it I guess I'm okay with it. You can still run away to the top of the screen, and you can still call assists while doing it. You just can't do both. That seems fair.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wenzel and Spencer
YESSS THEY NERFED LENNY! ALL IS WELL
 
INCOMING ESSAY

Synopsis: Grounded preblock/Upback as it is currently implemented in beta at neutral is too strong for most characters to sufficiently deal with. Read the spoilers to read my essay. It's fucking huge, but I made it multi-parted to make it slightly easier to digest for anyone who gives a shit.

Part 1. I talk about grounded preblock/upback in regards to neutral.
Let me start by saying, yes, if you are right next to your opponent, a low beats upback every time (but not upback->downback but that's a side note). This is not about point-blank upback, this is about neutral game upback.

With the grounded preblock/upback change, at neutral within or around jumping normal range, you will chicken block the jumping normal instead of being forced to ground block it. Honestly, I was a fan of this change since getting stapled to the ground at range felt really WRONG compared to other games. The change also meant that you don't get Titan Knuckle'd, Projectile'd, or Assisted out of upback. This is really really great.

On first glance, this is better overall and more accurately representing the mechanical inspiration for the game (MVC2). However, there is one massive, non-obvious result of this change to neutral.

It means that upback as a neutral game option, has become the #1 option to space out, remain safe, and potentially whiff punish/block punish lots of attempts to deal with upback by calling assist(most notably L Extend) especially with doublejump characters.

It isn't the #1 option because it's a hard counter to everything, but because the only counters available to most characters to beat upback at neutral are either the hardest counters possible (Run up air throw, Excellebella/A-Train) or really really WEAK counters (gaining ground as you move towards them, baiting an assist to lock it out, air counterhits, forcing them to air block and doing a post-airblock/pushblock mixup).

The hard counters are massively risky due to air throws ability to get counter hit/whiff easily due to short range/get air teched anyway or Excellebella/A-Train getting punished on air block on the way down if mistimed slightly or the opponent could just stay on the ground and punish them. The weak counters don't really do THAT much immediately, and are long-term tactical considerations, but long-term tactical considerations to deal with an incredibly safe neutral option is not very powerful.

Zoners like Fukua & Peacock and to a minor extent Parasoul have a much greater ability to implement low-committal ways to deal with to Upback at neutral, since they can threaten neutral game upback at range with projectiles to keep you in their ideal zoning range, and therefore threaten you with zoning mixups.

Painwheel can deal with upback at neutral very well due to her fly allowing her to control airspace with j.MP, her H Nail->Fly letting her follow in an upbacked projectile into pressure, and fly enabling her air throw to be a more complete threat than most characters air throws.

Robo Fortune's H Beam is probably the only assist in the game that's a sufficiently low-committal way to deal with upback turtling at 1/2~3/4 screen for all characters that use it. This assist existing is extremely good for forcing people who upback all day at neutral(like me) to actually think about their neutral options and spacing instead of defaulting to upback->doublejump->see what's going on.

Part 2. I compare SG's ground preblock/upback mechanics to anime games(Melty Blood and Guilty Gear) & Versus games(Primarily UMVC3 since I lack MVC2 experience and knowledge)
To compare SG to other games, there are two major types of games with airblock -

1. Anime games
In Anime games, ie Melty Blood, Guilty Gear, ground normals are air unblockable, but air normals are air blockable. If at any point you fuck up your spacing, your opponent can put you in a bad situation of having to do a falling normal to protect yourself from an anti-air, or risk eating an air-unblockable. In Guilty Gear, you can expend meter to air block attacks, so being forced to block in the air at least saps your resources. In Melty Blood, the only universal option to protect yourself is Shielding in the air (Shielding is effectively a button parry that has active frames) where if you mess up the timing on it you get counter hit in recover and have more ground recovery, and if you get counter hit in the air you can't tech until you land on the ground, allowing for conversions into bnbs and therefore more setups.

In GG and MB there are incredibly strong basic systems that rewards correct reads on jump movement at neutral. SG lacks these mechanics, so at a base level upback can't be discouraged. I am not suggesting SG to incorporate any of these mechanics, because it is a Versus style game with assists and stuff, I am just including this here for comparison's sake. So let's look at Versus style games with assists.

Another note however, is that you can be hit out of prejump in these games by air attacks, which makes upbacking in reaction to air attacks spacing and timing dependant otherwise you die. It is much more lenient even in Retail SG, since you are only forced to block in retail, not get hit.

2. Versus Assist games
The way that upback is reigned in in these type of games is less explicit than anime games. This is done moreso by giving more options to character movesets that affect larger portions of the screen like beams or big projectiles or teleports. I'll talk more about UMVC3 here since I lack the MVC2 knowledge to make comparisons with that game.

In UMVC3, despite all of its numerous numerous flaws, upback isn't much of a problem at neutral because of a variety of reasons:
1. Multiple characters that can Fly with multiple airdashes to approach upbacking characters from the air at different angles.
2. Plink dash/wavedash allowing really fast almost-universal ground movement to catch up to upbacking characters safely.
3. 1f air throws with short tech window makes being scooped hard to deal with(in SG you can throw break with LP+LK at a much larger input window, so upback/delayed air throw tech can beat both normals and air throws at similar timings).
4. Multiple character with beams, lasers, or other projectiles that threaten very large portions of the screen.
5. Multiple assists that travel full screen or affect a very large portion of the screen.
6. Multiple characters who can teleport to close proximity of the enemy point character.

So we can see here that the character designs of UMVC3 reigns upback at neutral to a far more two-player game of risk-reward on either side(presuming even matchups with top tier teams, and no Magneto vs Haggar shit rofl what a shit matchup).

With a similar implementation of upback in SG, however, the majority of character designs in SG simply do not have enough options to properly turn an opponent's upback at neutral into an advantageous situation for themselves, making options such as upback->doublejump forward/neutral/backwards in reaction to the situation and act accordingly very strong and very free ways to get an advantageous situation for yourself.

Part 3. Conclusion and potential solutions
Therefore, for all the reasons I have listed above, I can confidently say that upback as it currently is implemented in Beta is far too strong of an option due to the great difficulty most characters have of sufficiently converting an opponent upbacking into an advantageous situation for themselves. In retail, an opponent upbacking at neutral in certain ranges forces them to be stapled to the ground by air attacks and therefore more consideration is needed in safe spacing. However, in retail, stapling someone to the ground with a superjump height normal is still dumb and eating projectiles/assists for upbacking is still dumb.

Potential solutions are to do an overhaul of most characters movesets and movement options(AN UNREASONABLY LARGE AMOUNT OF WORK), or to try make upback vs air attacks still staple you to the ground within a reasonable vertical distance while still blocking assists & projectiles with upback (Probably difficult to implement but is much MUCH less work than overhauling character movesets).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Wenzel, Dime and Beamsprouts
That first was the first thing that caught my eye with RF's HP laser.
 
In regards to Lenny change:

Really, the character with arguably the best screen control should not have access to such a good reversal. Her strong point should be control from a distance and weakness should be being exploitable in close quarters.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zarkingphoton and ReSpAwNz67
Elda Taluda said:
Why isn't anyone talking about being able to DHC after a taunted SSJ?? THATS NUTS! Not only are we talking crazy damage options now but you can toss one out just for the insane chip into a safe DHC if you want. Serious point BB buff.
The last hit isn't a true blockstring from the punches, and it's extremely easy to PBGC at any point, so you really don't get any more of a safe DHC than you did before since you pretty much have to DHC during the punches. And the last hit adds exactly 632 damage.

Ninja said:
cause most of the damage of tuba tuba is in that last hit and well not being able to to dhc from it kinda nerfed the whole combo and the damage you could get from it.
Again, the last hit adds exactly 632 damage, because the punches always fully scale. The rest of the super does 4600+. So no, "most of the damage" is not in the last hit. :^P

Mr. X said:
Robo Fortune's HP Laser can't be pushed block until the last hit
It'll get fixed.

TechPowah said:
Would it be too silly to try a timer for Double's LV. 5 on her Tension bar like there is for Band's Satchmo song timer? It would help a lot to see how much time I have left for Gradius shenanigans.
I will see how possible this is! Although getting hit would still lose you the rest of the meter.

Colossi said:
I made a list of ways to counter Beo anti air super
Post-flash? Why are you spending meter?
If he was close to you...
Meterless:
Filia/Fukua s.HP hits it, and they can jump-back or superjump-back j.LP into a full combo punish.
LP Updo hits it.
Excellabella hits it.
Dive Of Horus hits it.
L Beat Extend hits it.
Fortune can jump back and j.LP for a full combo punish, she doesn't even have to superjump.
Parasoul can jump back j.MP or sj back j.MP.
Double can jump back j.LP into either j.MK or barrel, or superjump back j.LP into anything, for a full punish.
Requires meter:
Squigly can LH SBO for a full punish.
Valentine CAN sj back into autocorrect Flatline but it's not easy to time.
S.O.L.:
Peacock can't punish unless she already has an SOID, but Beowulf is now a full screen away from her which is enough of a 'punish'. ;^)

ClarenceMage said:
INCOMING ESSAY
I was going to write a long response to this, but I have other things to do. Let me summarize:
- This complaint exists in pretty much every game with airblocking, at various skill levels.
- I am fine with people complaining about a defensive tactic, since that is not an often-seen thing and it means defense is viable. Especially in a game with such a focus on offense. Similar to how people complaining about both Filia's rushdown and Peacock's zoning being OP is fine. :^)
- If your opponent is doing something predictable you can ALWAYS outplay them, and if a tactic has high reward chances are you can predict it will occur.

At ranges where grounded lows hit, upback still glues you to the ground. THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN ANY OTHER GAME. In any other game, if you have a low that is slower than jump startup you CANNOT prevent people from upbacking. That right there makes upback weaker in SG than in anything else, even games where you can't airblock ground hits, because you get a full grounded combo.

As well, every character dashes forward, and dash-jumps forward, much faster than every character jumps backward. So if your opponent is just upbacking you can catch up to them, with everyone.

Upback at 1/2 or 3/4 screen is a kinda ridiculous complaint. That's just as good in every game, and just as good in Retail, as it is in the Beta (minus the fix for getting randomly hit by assists or projectiles) because nothing was sticking you to the ground in any case.

The rest of your arguments (airthrows are techable, etc) require playing from the defender, so I don't really care? At that point the defender is playing, and can be outplayed.
There are multiple ways to beat chicken-block->ground attack from the air.

And lastly, if the opponent jumps back and then jumps around, they're coming at you FROM THE AIR so allllllllllllllll that stuff you just said about how crappy air attacks are vs upback now applies to them against you! If upback being good makes jumping around worse, then it also makes the result of upbacking...worse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dhoppler, erkicman, Wenzel and 5 others
Double post, bringing over a thing from Dime's thread.

I am actually super willing to try doublejumps putting you in SJ mode as a Beta experiment. It might feel like utter poop but they can reach SJ height so...let's try that!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sydoh, Fumako, Beamsprouts and 6 others
As a five-minute experiment it also refers to "attacks turn you around". I'm honestly not sure I would do one without the other, in any case.
 
Mike_Z said:
At ranges where grounded lows hit, upback still glues you to the ground. THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN ANY OTHER GAME. In any other game, if you have a low that is slower than jump startup you CANNOT prevent people from upbacking. That right there makes upback weaker in SG than in anything else, even games where you can't airblock ground hits, because you get a full grounded combo.

I have explicitly acknowledged this, and upback at point blank is irrelevant to the issue I am talking about. I am explicitly talking about upback letting you escape opponent-using-air-normal situations far more safely. I like how low attack vs point blank upback staples you to the ground in this game. This is nice. This is also not what I am talking about at all, and is not a counterpoint to anything I have mentioned. Please respond to what I have written, not what you have thought I have written.

Mike_Z said:
As well, every character dashes forward, and dash-jumps forward, much faster than every character jumps backward. So if your opponent is just upbacking you can catch up to them, with everyone.

Catching up to an upbacking opponent is not risk free, especially when extra air movement (doublejump forward, doublejump neutral, airdashes) and non-committal neutral game options (call large hitbox neutral game assist assist) exist, potentially converting your opponent trying to catch up to you into blocking an assist->eating pressure->getting mixed up->dying.

I am not saying that if you try to catch up you are fucked - I am saying that there are a lot of dangerous options from both sides of the exchange, and upbacking turtling empty jumps calling assist etc is a very low-risk way of avoiding damage and bad situations, without significant loss of positioning by the upbacker, and potentially a significant gain of positioning by the upbacker if they have great air options or a great assist to use at range.

A side note about walking your opponent to the corner if they upback forever -

Yes, it is true that in the long term if you upback, then your opponent will gain ground on you and slowly corner you. However, there is more than enough counterplay available to the person who upbacked at neutral to outplay whatever method your opponent is using to catch up to you.

The entire point is that, at neutral, if you aren't under direct threat of a low, then upbacking results in a very strong way of setting up positional advantage that is incredibly difficult to find convincingly consistent ways for a lot of characters to make you think that maybe upbacking isn't a bad idea.

Anti-air command grabs fall under my "Super punishable hard read" category, and then the mixup is "If I upback and potentially eat a little bit of damage and a super, potentially a combo-starting DHC depending on team order, or I get out of the situation entirely if they don't do an anti-air command grab" and "If I don't upback, they can whiff a highly punishable move that I can get a counterhit punish on, or they can try close in to do whatever else that I might be able to react to/outplay".

Mike_Z said:
Upback at 1/2 or 3/4 screen is a kinda ridiculous complaint. That's just as good in every game.

Why?

I have given my reasons why upback at neutral is explicitly weaker in other games in comparison to SG (Guilty Gear, Melty Blood, UMVC3) in Part 2 of my post. Please respond to the points I have made, in that specific section of my post, or provide a counterpoint. I will not accept "It's just as good as in any other game" on face value when you haven't provided any backup to your point.

Mike_Z said:
The rest of your arguments (airthrows are techable, etc) require playing from the defender, so I don't really care? At that point the defender is playing, and can be outplayed.
There are multiple ways to beat chicken-block->ground attack from the air.

The defender is playing, and can be outplayed, but as mentioned before the defender is in a very low-risk situation and potentially better position by upbacking

Mike_Z said:
And lastly, if the opponent jumps back and then jumps around, they're coming at you FROM THE AIR so allllllllllllllll that stuff you just said about how crappy air attacks are vs upback now applies to them against you! If upback being good makes jumping around worse, then it also makes the result of upbacking...worse.

What you have described falls exactly into my evaluation of upback - because upback is such a strong defensive option, it makes jumping attacks much more crappy overall! This turns the game into a more defensive, evasion focused neutral game where offense is weaker!

From this sentence it sounds like you have interpreted what I am saying as complaining about a tactic because I don't like it being used against me. I assure you, this is simply my theory+practise evaluation of a very strong and centralising option in Skullgirls neutral game, one that I fear would become a crutch in my play and cause me to over-rely on it and play badly.

You have altered many characters movesets because certain options were over-centralising and a crutch (Bella Dynamo, Peacock H Port, Filia j.HK), and that is where I evaluate upback in Beta SG; an over-useful neutral game crutch that solves a lot of problems, is very effective, and difficult to counter.

I do too much upback->doublejump in other games like MB and GG as a result of Beta SG, and in those games being predictable with that option can get you rekt much much harder! I don't want my playtime in SG to foster overall bad/scrubby habits that get me killed in other games.

Mike_Z said:
Double post, bringing over a thing from Dime's thread.

I am actually super willing to try doublejumps putting you in SJ mode as a Beta experiment. It might feel like utter poop but they can reach SJ height so...let's try that!

This might actually be really good for the game. It'll rek my primary Val strategy, but my primary Val strategy is very difficult to counter consistently so this will force me to play better! On the flip side, it will make approaching characters like Peacock much much harder since you can't jump->doublejump->call assist to both avoid zoning and make the character block some shit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zarkingphoton
ClarenceMage said:
I do too much upback->doublejump in other games like MB and GG as a result of Beta SG, and in those games being predictable with that option can get you rekt much much harder! I don't want my playtime in SG to foster overall bad/scrubby habits that get me killed in other games.
But...neither of those games has assists, and airblocking works significantly differently, and they have air techs which is why ground normals can even BE unblockable in the air. Tactics don't necessarily carry over because they are different games. And you said you don't play MvC2, so...
That sentence is "I play SG and something works against the people I play, so I play other games that way and it doesn't work, please change SG so I don't play other games badly."
What. The. Hell.
I'll ignore this as it pertains to the rest of your argument.

ClarenceMage said:
Please respond to what I have written, not what you have thought I have written.
OK: Your thesis is, upback is the best thing you can do at midrange, and this is a huge problem because now in the Beta it also works if the opponent is jumping around.
I disagree because being predictable is always worse than not, but for arguments' sake let's say upback is the best thing you can do at midrange neutral.
So what? Midrange is not the entire game, and you yourself admitted it doesn't work at ranges you're landing hits from.

Falling down with an assist can be counter-called extremely easily, which puts you in a much worse situation, or just out-poked because the grounded person has access to invincible moves plus assists, and assists can be hit before they are active - even invincible ones.

I don't agree that this is something I need to debate, because I don't think your statement is true.
And even if it were true, I don't think it is important except in matches where both players choose to do only that, which good players will not choose to solely do because it won't win you games.
I think it is a first-order optimal tactic at best.
I play this game, and lots of other games, and I do not agree with your assessment.
Is that better?

[edit] Also, jumping around like that is HELLA good in GG. Way better than in SG, IMO. Like I jump without even thinking in GG all the time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Wenzel and ClarenceMage
Mike_Z said:
Double post, bringing over a thing from Dime's thread.

I am actually super willing to try doublejumps putting you in SJ mode as a Beta experiment. It might feel like utter poop but they can reach SJ height so...let's try that!


This is more than i thought i would get and more than i could ask for. I honestly dont think it will stick because according to the way people posted last time i mentioned it in this thread, people seem to really like double jump plus assist stuff... Probably cause its so non commital and such an easy way to move forward with little risk.

I dont want it to stay if it feels terrible. But I was just wanting to try "something". Another idea i had that you might hate... that i forgot to mention in the journal post was:

Non double jump/super jump attacks root against upback like in retail, but double jump and super jump attacks do not. If you were willing to try this it of course would be up to your discression how it affects painwheels flight mode attacks with respect to jailing against upback, or not.

Not that i think it will be tried, but i want sg to be a great, fun, skilled game. Not just for me but for everyone. And i honestly feel like a slight nerf to some form of upback or double jump or both, is needed to keep the game moving toward a dynamic neutral as opposed to letting players choose whether they want to play dynamically, or forcing the more dynamic player to make his opponent play better, which is what it feels like now.

If i had to distill my argument down to a small complaint it is this:

In other games especially versus games with assists, there is another tactic that can be used to "beat" upback:

Horizontal chip damage such unibeam and the like. And keepaway in general. Sg has no real answers like air unibeam or ability to cause "noticeable" chip to an upbacker to make them rethink their strategy.

High level marvel is non surprisingly about the characters that tend to deal with upback the best by not having to directly deal with it... OR having ridiculously good ways to deal with it.
 
Last edited:
Dime_x said:
Non double jump/super jump attacks root against upback like in retail, but double jump and super jump attacks do not. If you were willing to try this it of course would be up to your discression how it affects painwheels flight mode attacks with respect to jailing against upback, or not.
I'm a lot less for that, just because if things were going to stick you to the ground it should be based on opponent's height above you, not what type of jump they started with.
I'm also less for things that categorically won't hit you because you are blocking them preventing you from moving in the desired direction, which is why air hits don't stick you down but low hits do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back