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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Dreamepitaph said:
anyways before anymore "Defending" comes about. would filia players like their overhead back?

and is anyone having trouble with the timing to convert meterless from the air grab?
No you have to utilize wave dashing after throw into m drill for it to work
 
Dreamepitaph said:
the alternative is just dash into air dash. but this change seems to favor stick players.
It would seem that way. Unfortunately 5f to dash over to an opponent is a pretty tight window so maybe the freeze frames should be increased to 6 or 7... (at 5f it requires almost frame perfect wavedashing to work)
 
Converting off a ground throw is pretty easy once you see the timing required. My biggest complaint about it is that is just looks really weird how the opponent kind of freezes in place above the ground. Maybe make it multihit so it isn't as visually weird?
 
RemiKz said:
Converting off a ground throw is pretty easy once you see the timing required. My biggest complaint about it is that is just looks really weird how the opponent kind of freezes in place above the ground. Maybe make it multihit so it isn't as visually weird?
So the no damage throw combo can scale even more. Nice
 
I think multihit on the drill would make it look better. I've never been a fan of a character getting hit and being stuck in one frame for an extended period of time anyway.
 
WarpedEcho said:
So the no damage throw combo can scale even more. Nice
It's already being scaled to hell because its a throw combo AND a stagger. I'm sure the damage can be made out to be relatively the same.
 
These recent Filia changes came completely out of left field to me, but I think I like them. They make Filia have slightly more fundamental mixups instead of just "fling a bunch of plus on block shit at your opponent and confirm if it hits".

EDIT: These things with Filia no longer work vs a bunch of characters

s.HP iad j.LP setup

c.MP IAD j.LP j.MK(fastfall) crossunder on lights.

If they could somehow be made to work again that would be swell.
 
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[edit]
The throw conversion doesn't require a dash jump. You just hold UF and then airdash and wait until you see them start to move and hit MP. It's really really easy.

ClarenceMage said:
EDIT: These things with Filia no longer work vs a bunch of characters
s.HP iad j.LP setup
You can do a later airdash and it still works.

ClarenceMage said:
c.MP IAD j.LP j.MK(fastfall) crossunder on lights.
This was a product of the fact that she "was" a lot lower than she "looked" so she landed earlier than she "should", which is the thing that got fixed. Sorry!
Though since j.MP pulls them along with your momentum you can do something similar with c.MP /\ j.MP(1)->j.MK(1) dash j.LP->j.MK fastfall, or c.MP /\ j.MP(2-3) dash j.LP->j.MK fastfall.

WarpedEcho said:
@Mike_Z for filia jhk, is it that you think it still does too much, and you rather it either be a crossup tool OR a high (but not both)? I'm genuinely curious.
I'd rather instant j.HK be less of an always-go-to option with very little risk, pretty fast startup, no execution or spacing requirements, the ability to make it completely safe, the ability to randomly cross up, and which dodges throws and also happens to be overhead. I don't care how it works in combos or high up and have no desire to change most of that. I also don't care if it's a RISKY crossup/a SLOW crossup/a SITUATIONAL crossup plus being a high, but a risk-free fast high crossup could use some more downsides.

I don't particularly think Filia is unbalanced per se, I just think that one option is a little too strong in multiple ways and prevents you from having to make a lot of choices which your opponent DOES have to make, both with their offense and being on defense vs your option. I don't think that removing a few of the things that make it ALWAYS the right choice will in turn make it unusable, or even break the character. The people arguing for it remind me a lot of the people previously arguing for Fukua's air fireball conversions from anywhere, in that it is SUCH an easy option that it became a main mode of play, so they never bothered to become competent with the rest of the character and decided she'd be unusable without it.

The random crossup dashjump j.HK is a dumb thing because it's completely unpredictable, so that's going away no matter what else. That's not skilled offense opening someone up, and even I feel that way while using it.
Were it me ignoring everyone else (oh how I wish) j.HK would be a real H speed - 18f instead of 13f (instant j.HK would be 24-25f instead of 17f) - not cross up, and still be airdash cancellable and overhead. Doing that changes a lot of combos, though, just by virtue of it not comboing off things it does now - or requires changing a lot of her air normals' hitstuns which would change even more.
Or still be fast and overhead but not dash cancellable, which isn't really workable because there's no justification for the non-dash-cancel exception other than "I don't want it", unlike say Big Band who is lying down in the air and has fully committed to the move.
Or still be fast and dash cancellable but not overhead, which is the current experiment.

I don't care about IAD j.HK because it's slower already and has used up your dash, and I don't mind it giving you any of the things it gives you in combos or in other situations which is why I fixed up New Filia as much as I could. Even without being overhead, j.HK still beats every attack it normally beats (Cere c.MP, etc) AND it can still cross up, it just is no longer the game's fastest overhead which is also unthrowable, safe, and allows movement afterward.

If I were to do any of those I wouldn't give her any compensation for it, but I decided to try the Ringlet thing anyway because Ringlet could stand to be slightly more useful.
I don't mind improving IAD j.LK to hit more often because you already used your airdash. That'll be tonight.

But the complaining has not been "Let's actually talk about pros and cons" but rather "You changed a move I use constantly so nothing else is worth that." Which only reinforces my initial viewpoint that this was too much of a go-to option. :^)

You can't argue "they always X" that's not how fighting games work. (The more experience you have the less you end up arguing those things.)
You also can't argue Filia won't land throws - as soon as the opponent is even attempting to react on defense, a throw becomes the freer of her options.
 
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RemiKz said:
It's already being scaled to hell because its a throw combo AND a stagger.
How does the stagger matter? Throws scale to 50% already; the Ringlet scale is just "Scale to 50% if it was above that"? There shouldn't be any difference in scaling between Throw>Stagger or Throw>AnyOtherHit?
 
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Mike_Z said:
Were it me ignoring everyone else (oh how I wish) j.HK would be a real H speed - 18f instead of 13f (instant j.HK would be 24-25f instead of 17f) - not cross up, and still be airdash cancellable and overhead. Doing that changes a lot of combos, though, just by virtue of it not comboing off things it does now - or requires changing a lot of her air normals' hitstuns which would change even more.
I suddenly am interested in playing a Skullgirls: Mike Z Is Ignoring Your Opinions version of the game. I would like to see that Filia change. Just looking at Filia's hitstun on her attacks, if you just bumped the hitstun on j.mp's middle hits by one frame then everything has at least 17f hitstun, so couldn't j.hk be 16f without a lot of other changes being necessary? 16 isn't 18, but maybe it's a little better while still not having to listen to too many people?
Or still be fast and overhead but not dash cancellable
Or still be fast and dash cancellable but not overhead, which is the current experiment.
What if it stayed the same but knocked down on hit like Bella's Elbow? Maybe only when not chained into to not effect combos. Or something. I don't know.
 
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Did neutral or upback IAD jLK/LP whiff over people when too close?
 
Mr. X said:
Did neutral or upback IAD jLK/LP whiff over people when too close?
It whiffs clean on Peacock.

Jump back dash works on Bella now (yay changes), Squigly and Fortune, not sure about others though didn't test everyone was just messing around.
 
Mike_Z said:
[edit]

If I were to do any of those I wouldn't give her any compensation for it, but I decided to try the Ringlet thing anyway because Ringlet could stand to be slightly more useful.
I don't mind improving IAD j.LK to hit more often because you already used your airdash. That'll be tonight.

gosh darn it
 
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damn the s.HP Filia hurtbox sticks out like a sore thumb. So far this is the most noticeable change although I have not incooperated meterless throw combos yet.
 
Maybe if grab could be canceled into light ringlet quicker it would be easier to convert. you can s.hk into light ringlet and it just hits your opponent from that you can easily walk over and otg. So I guess I'm saying if you could do the same thing with grab it might help this issue of conversion.

*This is in reference to the meter less grab conversion discussion not the current discussion

With reference to the discussion of ringlet should it be a freeze move or multi hitting special I am torn between the two options:
*On one hand it would work better for converting of a grab
*But on the other hand it would scale if you used it off S. Hk into ringlet which is not really useful cause your already throwing an OTG away by doing this so you want to get as much damage as possible
 
good news that is the overhead option is still back.
overall i was fine with the changes before but now its pretty good from my stand point. if i want to cross you up. i'm going to cross you up.

if i want to whiff throw to throw you i will throw you OR low you.
if i want to overhead i got my j lk.
 
Hm... I use s.hp as an anti-air a lot with Filia, is that gone now? I can't test it right now.
 
ashxu said:
damn the s.HP Filia hurtbox sticks out like a sore thumb. So far this is the most noticeable change although I have not incooperated meterless throw combos yet.

Mwisk said:
Hm... I use s.hp as an anti-air a lot with Filia, is that gone now? I can't test it right now.

The hurtbox on s.HP doesn't appear until the attack is already active, so the worst it can do is trade hits in situations where it would beat things cleanly before.

I don't really like the change but its not entirely nerfed to hell.
 
So it works like Eliza's s.MP now, then?
 
It works not at all like Eliza's s.MP because the hurtbox on that doesn't appear until after the first active frame
Filias will trade with jump-ins or whatever, Elizas will always win (If timed appropriately)
 
Tomo009 said:
It whiffs clean on Peacock.
Jump back dash works on Bella now (yay changes), Squigly and Fortune, not sure about others though didn't test everyone was just messing around.
Point-blank jump straight up IAD j.LK should work on everyone crouching now, I tested it before I made the build. Jump forward IAD j.HK may not, jump back definitely should.

Dreamepitaph said:
AWWWW MAN RINGLET IS BACK TO -7..... dammit i really hoped he would overlook it LOL
If you were just gonna wait and see rather than remind me, then you are officially on the sh*tlist.
Not like you already weren't, but hey, now it's official!
 
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Mike_Z said:
Post stuff that doesn't work anymore and who it used to work on and I'll look at it.

@Mike_Z
Just played a set with Wing on beta, bella vs filia. MGR > c.lk > c.mp > c.hp. The c.mp whiffs mid screen. Tried it in training mode. It connects sometimes but it seems to be very inconsistent. Hope this helps.
 
I'm imagining Mike Z's shit list as

Stuff
Everyone
Stuff
NEW: Dreamepitaph
 
Raz said:
@Mike_Z
Just played a set with Wing on beta, bella vs filia. MGR > c.lk > c.mp > c.hp. The c.mp whiffs mid screen. Tried it in training mode. It connects sometimes but it seems to be very inconsistent. Hope this helps.
It does, okay I'll see what's up with her OTG stuff. I didn't mind c.LK->c.MK not working anymore but that's weird.

alexpi said:
I'm imagining Mike Z's shit list as
Stuff's not on it, and you missed a lot of specifics although I guess Everyone covers that. :^P
 
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alexpi said:
I'm imagining Mike Z's shit list as

Stuff
Everyone
Stuff
NEW: Dreamepitaph

I just have to this really hurt my feelings and I'm not sure I can ever recover from this.
 
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Well, I'm content with the changes.

Still feel val shouldn't be doing close to 8k with 1 meter midscreen, but I like the bypass change.

Still wish Peacock's crouching idle hurtbox was consistent and didn't move around but I'll live. Unless that's on some kind of to-do list.
 
RemiKz said:
Well, I'm content with the changes.

Still feel val shouldn't be doing close to 8k with 1 meter midscreen, but I like the bypass change.

Still wish Peacock's crouching idle hurtbox was consistent and didn't move around but I'll live. Unless that's on some kind of to-do list.
She can do over 8k, actually.

The corner carry is abysmal though, should only do those combos if you think it will kill.

Valentine is much more fun with these changes, I don't think she needed the buff by any stretch, but I can't hate it.
 
Tomo009 said:
She can do over 8k, actually.

The corner carry is abysmal though, should only do those combos if you think it will kill.

Valentine is much more fun with these changes, I don't think she needed the buff by any stretch, but I can't hate it.
She can do them in the corner just fine though, I'm pretty sure
 
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Mike_Z said:
Nice, thoughtful explanation
Thanks for the input. I tried out the new jlk in beta and it's great. Didn't think of the ramifications of keeping jhk an overhead and changing its other aspects (startup, dash cancel ability), so now that I see why you did it this way, it makes more sense. Ringlet thing is neat, I will miss the first 55 frames everywhere cause man would I abuse that on incoming midscreen for corpse crossups. Maybe I can still, gotta hit up the lab!
 
Raz said:
@Mike_Z
Just played a set with Wing on beta, bella vs filia. MGR > c.lk > c.mp > c.hp. The c.mp whiffs mid screen. Tried it in training mode. It connects sometimes but it seems to be very inconsistent. Hope this helps.
Reply #2, I think I see the problem so I'll check it out and see if I can fix it.
 
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Tomo009 said:
She can do over 8k, actually.

The corner carry is abysmal though, should only do those combos if you think it will kill.

Valentine is much more fun with these changes, I don't think she needed the buff by any stretch, but I can't hate it.
you can do c.hp, M bypass, H bypass, otg c.lk, c.hp, regular bnb for good corner carry and pretty good damage:

c.lk, c.mk, c.hp,
air M bypass, air H bypass,
c.mk, c.hp,
j.hp, adc, j.mp, j.hp,
dash, j.lp, j.mp, j.hp,
dash, s.lpx3, s.mpx2, c.mk, s.hp, H bypass, super

this already does 7.4k
 
Did something about Ringlet Frame data change?

With 30f "sticking", I see
- 45f Recovery on Ringlet
- 10f until Ringlet becomes active after Recovery starts
So Ringlet on hit is -5 now (could still combo after via xx Gregor, but not meterlessly)?

Or does the 30f "sticking" only start after the 18f active are over (so 45-10-18-30 = +13 on hit)?

E: Also, "sticks once per combo"; what happens on the 2nd ringlet? The old knockdown effect, or the same as with similar moves by other characters (you're -424324 in their face)?
 
Is there a way to make it so that you can get 55 frames from the spike if you hit them after something like a ground bounce or wallbounce? They would be in a redbounce after anyways, so its like having otg'd with it in the first place. If the reasoning behind saying no is "you save an otg this way" I understand. I just want it for flashy stuff. This way you can't get the 55 frames in neutral, but you can combo into it from something like launch jhk xx hk airball adc cr hp [groundbounce] xx lp/mp spike [some followup only possible from 55frames not 30 frames] I enjoyed this in beta previously. Also, can filia get the "og" jlk from an air backdash as well? It still carries her forwards (backwards?) when done from that.
edit: also, is there a reason you can't air backdash cancel airball?
 
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WarpedEcho said:
Is there a way to make it so that you can get 55 frames from the spike if you hit them after something like a ground bounce or wallbounce?
Nope.

WarpedEcho said:
Also, can filia get the "og" jlk from an air backdash as well? It still carries her forwards (backwards?) when done from that.
Huh? You mean fall faster? Why?

WarpedEcho said:
edit: also, is there a reason you can't air backdash cancel airball?
Yes.

IsaVulpes said:
Did something about Ringlet Frame data change?

On hit it recovers fast enough for you to hit s.HP off LP Spike without OTGing, but not fast enough to not OTG farther away.

IsaVulpes said:
E: Also, "sticks once per combo"; what happens on the 2nd ringlet? The old knockdown effect, or the same as with similar moves by other characters (you're -424324 in their face)?
The old thing.
 
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