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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

agent13 said:
Fukua has two non metered reversals and both lead into combos.
I echo Domo's "Huh?" Snuggle and Drill both lose to throws, as do ALL of her supers except Lv3, because against a meaty throw BFF is blockable.
Drill super has no invincibility before the flash, it is not a reversal.
Just because people aren't throwing her doesn't mean the weakness isn't present.

H Drill ignores pushblock and leaves you like -20 if pushblocked.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say I disagree with people.

KhaosMuffins said:
May as well ask. Who do you think is good/top and who all is not-so-good?
I resisted doing this for a long time because Game Creator Has Tier List Take It As Gospel but whatever, everyone's being ridiculous in this thread anyway.

I wrote down like three versions of the list before I realized I had a problem with placing anyone in the "not as good" tier because I don't think anyone sucks in the same way that say, MvC2 Chun-Li sucks. :^P So the only way to do this is with reference tiers from other games so people don't go OMG Big Band is C-Tier. I don't think I'd put anyone in SG below like B tier at absolute worst in another game.
As point chars? Probably like (not in any order per line)

Reference 3s tier: Chun
Marie (^.^)
Reference MvC2 tier: Magneto / Storm / Sent / Reference 3s tier: Yun / Ken





Peacock - Cerebella - Filia - Fortune - Painwheel - Parasoul - Valentine

Squigly - Double - Eliza

Reference 3s tier: Makoto / Dudley / Yang
Big Band



Fukua











Reference MvC2 tier: Cyclops / Iron Man / Doom

Fukua reminds me a lot of Makoto now that I think about it, because lots of her ability to win or get completely STOMPED depends on your reads. And she annoys people and gets a lot of the same reactions Makoto got.










































Reference BB tier: Tager
 
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That list is less weird than I was expecting.
 
I don't think anyone is gonna take that as gospel :^)


thank you for actually giving us your opinion, though

Edit: i also agree that even the worst character in the game is still very good and viable *nods*
 
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Grunt said:
That list is less weird than I was expecting.
I'm not sure why, I don't intentionally make characters shitty, and I've been playing fighting games for like 20 years.
I keep trying to tell people that if you only played SG you have NO IDEA what a "garbage character" really IS.

Also with respect to my opinion of Fukua and whatever is happening to her in the Beta, I may not agree that she is amazing as a character but I do agree that she is annoying, so I'd like to see what I can do to make that less true. She'll still win on the same reads.

Domo said:
I don't think anyone is gonna take that as gospel :^)
Come back in three years and see what you think.
 
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Mike_Z said:
Mike's big negative space list.

Even though you may not agree with this, but I am little disappointed that you left out this character's tier placement.

Reference 3S/MvC2 tier: Sean/Roll

Umbrella
 
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Mike_Z said:
I echo Domo's "Huh?" Snuggle and Drill both lose to throws, as do ALL of her supers except Lv3, because against a meaty throw BFF is blockable.
Drill super has no invincibility before the flash, it is not a reversal.
Just because people aren't throwing her doesn't mean the weakness isn't present.


unless you have a hard read, meaty throw is silly.. All they have to do is upback and you're screwed. Even if i land a throw i still have to reset more because of the scaling..

against Gunblade or drill, i'd rather just jump and punish rather than going for a meaty throw
 
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Well Mike's list doesn't really have many levels and it's for point only so it doesn't really say much.
 
Yeah, one of the problms with throw being a characters weakness is that throw is scaled by 50%. When your weakness means im doing half damage to you... Its kinda hard to see it as a weakness.

Not that i disagree with mike on the fukua being good issue (though i dont see her being near bottom at all)
 
Dagwood said:
unless you have a hard read, meaty throw is silly.. All they have to do is upback and you're screwed. Even if i land a throw i still have to reset more because of the scaling..

against Gunblade or drill, i'd rather just jump and punish rather than going for a meaty throw

Meaty throw is not really what I'd call a hard read. I do it all the damn time. The only time Fukua is going to punish you for it is if she does wakeup j.HK <- THAT is a hard read since it loses to just about everything that's not a meaty throw. If you meaty throw against somebody doing up+back the situation basically goes back to neutral most of the time, not really all that risky.
 
to summarize Fukua.

Low-middle tier play: she's really really gud! all these tools so stronk

Upper Play: Fukua is as good as your reads. if your reads are garbage then fukua will perish. the enemy will learn how to limit and approach this character and so One day fukua will have to read exceptionally how the opponent will come at them and then adjust swiftly which is all reads. soooooooo
 
Dime_x said:
Yeah, one of the problms with throw being a characters weakness is that throw is scaled by 50%. When your weakness means im doing half damage to you... Its kinda hard to see it as a weakness.
Fukua's options to actively hit you (ie not "M.Shadow and the opponent runs into it"):
- Low
- (Command-)Throw (bad range, needs meter to convert)
- 30f Overhead (please don't get hit by this)

Look, if you just hold downback and aren't asleep, Fuk has to take 50% scaled combos that forces her to spend bar!
And if you keep jump-blocking towards her, she might airthrow you some time, but she can't convert out of that *at all*, so bleb

I can't let myself get thrown 50 times in a row (which will happen against everyone except Peacock and, heh, Fukua!), so I kinda have to avoid it -- and the one reallll way for Fuk to avoid throws is upback.
.. Ding Ding my "Weakness against Throws" now turns into a "Weakness against Lows", cus I have to upback more than other characters, which makes me kinda free to those, and hey Lows aren't scaled! What terror.
 
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Fukua doesn't really need reads or to work hard to open people up. She can just keep putting stuff on the screen and make her opponent work to get to her where she can then put out hitboxes that convert into combos.

It's like you just get the chance to get under her when she is going to do a j.HP fireball but she can throw out a j.HK first which will convert into a full combo if it lands or just cancel into fireball if it didn't connect.

I wouldn't mind if she could only cancel j.HK into fireball on hit.
 
RemiKz said:
Fukua doesn't really need reads or to work hard to open people up. She can just keep putting stuff on the screen and make her opponent work to get to her where she can then put out hitboxes that convert into combos.

It's like you just get the chance to get under her when she is going to do a j.HP fireball but she can throw out a j.HK first which will convert into a full combo if it lands or just cancel into fireball if it didn't connect.

I wouldn't mind if she could only cancel j.HK into fireball on hit.
If only characters had options that beat both fireball and j.hk
 
Dagwood said:
unless you have a hard read, meaty throw is silly.. All they have to do is upback and you're screwed. Even if i land a throw i still have to reset more because of the scaling..

against Gunblade or Drill, i'd rather just jump and punish rather than going for a meaty throw

Both those moves are committed as fuck and generally done on a read. I've thrown Skarmand and Domo for those quite a bit, and they've hit me with them quite a bit. It's not a bad idea as long as it's not your only idea, but that's kinda how it goes. Sometimes resets need to happen after throw due to scaling, but the advantage is still advantage if you're the one deciding where the whole procedure is going.

If you have someone on the ground after a combo knockdown, that's one touch + another touch for reading their wakeup reversal and you get to put them right back in that position if you want to go for a third or reset. Conversely how fucked are they if they're dissuaded from reversaling on wakeup?
 
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Chairman Mao said:
If only characters had options that beat both fireball and j.hk
And those moves typically have a lot more commitment than what Fukua is doing.
 
I'm actually curious about why Japan thinks Valentine is bad. There have been times where I've been questioning how good she is but at the worst it's "Valentine isn't as broken/OP as people think she is".

I'm really biased but I think she's just difficult to play which means her strengths aren't very apparent at a quick glance.
 
ashxu said:
Well Mike's list doesn't really have many levels and it's for point only so it doesn't really say much.
It doesn't have many levels because I don't think there ARE many levels.
And it's for point because...that's how you tier single characters?


If Fukua doesn't have a Lv3, you can call an assist and go for a throw on wakeup and at best she is forced to block it, and is then in pressure. At worst she gets hit by the assist, gets thrown, or did BFFs which you block and full punish. And that's without any other layers of doing a low instead or whatever. No other character in the game is in that situation all the way until they have 3 bars. And all of her good buttons are vulnerable.

I really think people just don't fight her right.
 
Well yeah obviously and Mike only judged the characters based on their point capability. That plus the fact that there's only 3-4 levels as I said doesn't mean much because there's a lot of other factors.

Which is why no one will take it as gospel due to how much is missing.
 
ashxu said:
Well yeah obviously and Mike only judged the characters based on their point capability. That plus the fact that there's only 3-4 levels as I said doesn't mean much because there's a lot of other factors.

Which is why no one will take it as gospel due to how much is missing.
It feels a teensy bit like you're just being contrary to be contrary.
If you say Sentinel > Storm > Magneto = Cable that's valid, as lone characters, taking into account all their relative usefulness.
Nobody's complaining about Fukua's ASSISTS here, for example.
 
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I just want to say that people making blanket statements like "Japan thinks that....." makes me a bit uncomfortable and is probably an over generalization. Its not as if all Japanese players all have the same opinion.

I mean I'm probably guilty of doing the same thing but still.
 
Mike_Z said:
Yeah, I can make the homing better/faster. I also think it looks cool! and I still don't see MMDS beat people with her any more than with anyone else (sorry Dan love ya) I'm just gonna have to go with what I think and people who hate fireballs can eat it.
As long as my scrubiness with her proves she doesn't need any more nerfs (Evo nerfs were already hurtful), then you can say anything you want about me. I never thought she was overpowered even in the original phase when she can link j. HK fireball combos
 
Jason said:
I just want to say that people making blanket statements like "Japan thinks that....." makes me a bit uncomfortable and is probably an over generalization. Its not as if all Japanese players all have the same opinion.

I mean I'm probably guilty of doing the same thing but still.
I basically read that as "A lot of Japanese players think that...". It's like if you said "America thinks anchor Bella is good", obviously not everyone thinks that but a lot of top American players do.
 
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All this talk about Japan makes me rather interested in hearing what the reactions are to the location test this weekend.
 
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Ok, this cool down now completely takes away from her zoning of shadow/fireball. Please remove. I think every viable tactic she had is now gone.

If you're gonna add cooldown, make the hitstun back to the original where you can combo off of it from long distance.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
OR allow a function to use the fireball in a different way perhaps?
Like in what way?
What if on a succesful hit, the fireball slighty drags the person back toward fukua (regardless of where she is) for a small amount of time. It gives her another option to confirm and (within the current changes to it) gives people incentive to throw it out, risking not having a fireball for a while but confirming a combo.
But this is from a bella-main, so let me know if I'm approaching this right (like is this overlapping shadow's role?).
 
Broseidon Rex said:
Like in what way?
What if on a succesful hit, the fireball slighty drags the person back toward fukua (regardless of where she is) for a small amount of time. It gives her another option to confirm and (within the current changes to it) gives people incentive to throw it out, risking not having a fireball for a while but confirming a combo.
But this is from a bella-main, so let me know if I'm approaching this right (like is this overlapping shadow's role?).
um no.

I was thinking something like this *prepare for the dumbest idea*

So think about fukua's fireballs acting as a anchorpoint (stay with me on this). Now This idea would prolly only be an negative edge type of input but basically you use the anchor points as movements.

Example.

Qcb + [P]: the fireball goes on the ground and sticks in place.

as you hold P. you can still move around and what not. once you release P. the fireball will be like a grappling hook that allows fukua to zip to.

Other ideas was a change to L fireball that just bounces straight up in the air. and with a normal you can propel it at the enemy.

I dunno!
 
Yup. Feng.

http://www.labzerogames.com/3rdcharacter/ said:
As a graceful acrobat, Feng is able to use her ghostly bird friends to assist her in various ways. She can place them on the stage as focal points that can bend her jumps and aerial attack trajectories or open other high-flying movement options. Keeping them close would enhance her specials and supers, instead.
 
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Looking at my idea, I realized it would be like Feng Lite.
Also, it would make cross up L. air dart even more powerful since it would bring them off the ground, limiting a bunch of reversal options.
 
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