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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

no game is perfect. Why are suggestions so upsetting?
 
Tomo009 said:
What are they redundant with? It means you get more damage from harder reads/good setups, less damage from lesser/safer ones.


Redundant as far as the numbers and what exactly scales. Some are 50% some are 90% some such as throws have multiple layers of protection across the board such as not being throwable for a huge period after blockstun or hitstun along with damage scaling on top of that along with only being able to combo from a throw that has 50% scaling already, into an rc that also scales damage.

Maybe its just the numbers that i have a problem with, but scaling in general because of starter leaves a super bad taste in my mouth, making it so that putting the opponent into a terrible position that you can get a good mixup off of them, isnt as good as some random 5H starter that someone just stuck out there to take up space. I find it as off putting and redundant as neg edge. Redundant in that hey if you dont want to take much damage from getting hit low... Then block low. In other words, redundant in that there are already good ways to defend against low attacks and throws. Neg edge being redundant in that there are already ways to punish people for turtling all day.


The games seem to want to encourage flailing as a concept since they punish basically anything that ISNT flailing.
 
Grangach said:
or you could just cash out the damage every time and keep it boring, that's what the pros do.

Am I considered a pro? Because I don't really do this unless the combo is going to kill or if my opponent is down to their last character and I want to build my lead in a way that's guaranteed.
Though I guess with Fukua you'd go into BFF for a crumple to get oki, hm.

Grangach said:
That has nothing to do with scaling and everything to do with how little the game is balanced around neutral. I'd like a little less time spent in combo and a little more time in footsies.

I talk with sonicfox about this a lot, and we don't really feel like many people who play sg actually know how to play neutral. Like, our neutral isn't amazing or anything yet, but if no one can hit us of course it feels sg has little neutral...
Grangach said:
You know I would kill for a TvC style burst system.

play tvc! (man I'm only replying to your posts huh)

Dime_x said:
I dont even like the scaling on throws, not to mention things i find to be exceptionally redundant such as gg/bb style damage proration.

I'm glad throws scale. ^_^b
 
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As a PW player, I'm sad throws scale. As a person who doesn't want this game to suck, I'm glad they do.

I do agree with Sage that very few people play a good neutral. But I think that is based around how the game is structured. Namely, so long as you can score a hit, the confirm is usually easy, and you get what is effectively a standing vortex in the form of resets.
 
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dekillsage said:
Stuff

Thanks for not talking down to me, yeah I consider you an sonic fox pros. Its not that I think the neutral is lacking in quality, I just wish it had more quantity, in fact I like the neutral so much that that's why I would like to see more options that let you return to it. Having combo starters that significantly effect scaling would also make the neutral way more interesting because it would add more to risk reward calculations.

I like resets, they prevent the game from turning into a character action game or marvel 3, I just don't think they are encouraged enough.

Realistically I have a hard enough time finding people to play SG with, let alone TvC, and I'm sure TvC has it's own set of things I don't like mechanically.
 
Oh I forgot, Eliza's jumping fp needs to leave more hitstun on the opponent. They recover too fast compared to other j. fp
 
MegamanDS said:
Oh I forgot, Eliza's jumping fp needs to leave more hitstun on the opponent. They recover too fast compared to other j. fp
It has about 25 frames of hitstun which is more hitstun than a few characters and about the same as the rest.

Eliza - 25f

Filia - 23f
Fukua -25f
Fortune - 21f
Double - 25f?
Painwheel - 25f?
Valentine - 25f
Peacock - 28f
Big Band - 26f
Beowulf - 28f
Parasoul - 30f (lol)
Cerebella - 34f (off-set by air delay)
Squigly - 26f
 
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Yeah, @Grangach is totally right. Let's add Mega Crash, make jabs scale damage to 50% like throws, add hitstun deterioration, throw in Xrd's Guts system (because the endings of fights aren't dramatic enough), add a magic pixel, give characters different hp totals (why aren't they already? gosh), add Negative Penalty, put in Fly Screen, Danger Time, A-Groove CC's, a block/Guard Crush meter, IK's, FRC's, and probably X-Factor while we're at it. All of these suggestions are well-thought additions that address meaningful concerns that a lot of knowledgeable people have with Skullgirls Encore.
 
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Mr. X said:
You really do go overboard.
I just wanted people to be absolutely sure of whether or not I'm being sarcastic.
 
Grangach said:
ayyy

I know where you're coming from. In fact we've been here before, back when MDE with 350 undizzy was being changed to Encore with its current 240 undizzy and it building at stage 3. We talked about briefly how changing the undizzy to its current level wouldn't make it so that there was more neutral. Neutral in this game doesn't last long regardless of how long combo are (it can, but it doesn't happen often). After you've landed a hit the reset game is ridiculously strong, as is pressure and hard knockdown set ups. I don't consider those parts of a match neutral, which is why I still don't think decreasing combo length or damage will result in more neutral. It'll result in the same neutral, with extra resets and more pressure until people eventually die (or peacock zoning).

People in this game die way too fast though, but that's because of ratios really. I like the damage output in a 3v3, and 2v2 is alright, but 2v3 or 1v2 or 1v3 is like.... rip your health

edit: also the person getting hit builds way too much meter. The idea of having to reset more often so your opponent builds less meter is kinda dumb to me, when you have to spend all your resources to kill your opponents character... which then leads to them building a ton of meter to kill my character in 1-2 hits anyways ~_~
 
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I don't mind that the person getting hit gets extra meter in equal sized team battles. It gives the player on the losing end some resources to actually mount a comeback. In uneven teams though, it's the difference between eating 7k off of a stray brass knuckle or 10k.
 
Eh I mean the meter gain for the opponent getting hit already got nerfed once. I don't think it needs to be changed again.
 
dekillsage said:
I like the damage output in a 3v3, and 2v2 is alright, but 2v3 or 1v2 or 1v3 is like.... rip your health

Q F T
 
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dekillsage said:
also the person getting hit builds way too much meter. The idea of having to reset more often so your opponent builds less meter is kinda dumb to me, when you have to spend all your resources to kill your opponents character... which then leads to them building a ton of meter to kill my character in 1-2 hits anyways ~_~

Peacock/Bella (or whomever) in a nutshell. Lose half your total health taking out Peacock only to have to beat a 4-meter Bella with 1-meter to yourself... ugh.
 
I just wish throws didnt give the opponent so much meter. The fact that they get scaled hard, are damn near useless at max undizzy, and give the opponent a full meter for a full throw combo... Is a bit of a kick in the teeth for doing something right.

Not NEARLY as bad as, but comparable to xfactor levels of punishment for doing what you are supposed to do... Which is to hit the enemy.
 
dekillsage said:
lmao

That makes a lot of sense. I think it's two different problems I have, one with combos being too long and secondly there not being enough neutral game. I only suggested mega crash because it's a clear get off me move that returns you to neutral, but I'm sure there are other solutions. If people don't like neutral than that's a completely different discussion.

I hate the team ratios, getting to choose how many characters you use was fun when I just started, but all I want now I just hate anything thats not 3v3.

Broken Loose said:
Yeah, Grangach ur a dummy i bet u dont evn play skullgirl u shld go bak 2 xrd or maeb aquapazz? pleb lol

I brought up what I think is a problem and a possible solution, I didn't just say add a mechanic that I like from another game "just because." You don't have to agree with me, but expanding what I said into an over the top strawman doesn't help anyone.
 
Maaaan mega crash is bad. Metered bursts/combo breakers kinda don't work. At least, I haven't seen them work in any game yet.

The closest thing I've seen is the burst meter in Arcana Heart 3 can also be used for a roman cancel install mode thing, which is actually good enough that you would use it instead of burst and the burst meter recovers more quickly after an install than a burst, so it kinda works out.

MK9 is unplayable for me 95% because of the 2 meter combo breaker messing everything up.

I would never hope for a burst in Skullgirls using dramatic tension.


@Grangach Broken Loose is always like that, don't fret about what he says ever.


Anyway, the added life really adds up over the course of a game. In 3v3 (which is almost every single game I play) this makes a major impact on one game. As it was, doing small reset into small reset, you usually ended up with full stun gauge and enough meter to kill just as your opponents life is low. It seems in beta you have to land a burst bait or do a single string reset at the end, which is fine and I guess Mike wants that, but it gives the opponent another chance to escape then get the character out to regain red life. I don't see how anyone could say that adding a small but not insignificant amount of health to every character doesn't extend the length of games.
 
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It would be easy to increase the neutral in this game. All you would have to do do is what other games with more neutral do:

Allow air techs so that resets are harder to implement.
Make hitconfirms harder across the board.
Make all assists give techable on frame 1, or aerial techable knockdowns.
Throws no longer give combo but instead have an "ST" like throw softening mechanic where you can land on your feet after teching.

Now, not only would you increase neutral, you would have made it exceptionally hard to have any kind of setplay and the entire game would basically be neutral.



But that isnt the game i want to play.
The types of games i just outlined have a few drawbacks, the biggest one for me being that it is EXCEPTIONALLY HARD to make comebacks on a game like those mentioned. The reason is obvious. With small combos/low damage being done, one needs to make many reads in order to comeback from a big deficit (while the time is running out)

This is one of the reasons for things like ultras, xfactor, rage, and the like in games with huge robust neutrals combined with low damage.


Easiest way to overcome this afaik, is to make regular 1 move hits do lots of damage, and combo hits do much less damage, while having a mechanic to limit the length of combos so that long combos that do no damage dont become a thing.



Point is this:

Making combos shorter in sg wont auto make neutral more robust. The reasons for less neutral in sg are its reset heavy nature and vortex style of on hit mixups, combined with super easy hitconfirms that translate into very easy abare for damn near every character. Combine that with assists that are ridiculously easy to convert for many characters and offensive mixups that though simple are exceptionally powerful (low/throw and high/low and left/right) and exceptionally easy to setup to boot.

The "problem" of sg not having huge neutral is much less the length of combos, than it is other things.


I dont think sgs smallish neutral is a bad thing at all though. Its actually the thing that attracts me to sg. I like the fact that option wise sg has a VERY robust neutral, it just isnt redundant by making people have to do the same neutral mixup 4-5 times in a row just to get a small opening to do a little combo.

Sg is a VERY direct and honest fighter. It is very easy in sg to see why you lost and make the needed adjustments to win or at the very least be more competitive.

This is because sg is less about "when" you do things as opposed to "what" you do, which is in direct opposition to most every other fighter out there.

Sg is highly original mechanically speaking as far as how the mechanics affect gameflow and id like to keep it that way tyvm.
 
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btw why is 3v3 a 1.3 damage ratio? would 1.0 make games too long? I tend to finish combos way more often in 3v3 since I can do like 90% damage with one dhc from a c.lk
 
Because the games would be absurdly long otherwise because of swapping out and red life recovery....

I don't see why people want SG to be a low damage game, especially in 3v3.

Lower damage wont force neutral anyway, it will just force people to swap characters around more, compounding the effect on game time.
 
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Just played an Arcade Run on retail... wow being able to poke people with Diamond Deflector was nifty. But hey, at least the extra health in Beta's nice.
 
Icky said:
This. Sick of the fucking system changes, and system change suggestions. The game is fine as is.
The game should probably get two beowulf based changes:
1. beowulf probably needs some kind of visual indication of what hype level he's got (whether zero/one/two/three). if otter isn't gonna work out with something like a new meter, but place some kind of aura on him. or markers like zappa's raoh souls in GGXX. or make him have an afterimage like genei jin. its not like squig's levels where its either normal/powered up.
2. remove the question mark from "ladies and gentlemen?". the game has two gentlemen now, so its not really a question any more, is it?
 
I doubt Beowulf will get a meter or anything to show the hype he has because he does the effects for the level of hype he is at at the startup of the moves that use it, you can check it during combos if you practice mic dropping and three levels aren't really hard to keep track of.
 
Zazz said:
The game should probably get two beowulf based changes:
1. beowulf probably needs some kind of visual indication of what hype level he's got (whether zero/one/two/three). if otter isn't gonna work out with something like a new meter, but place some kind of aura on him. or markers like zappa's raoh souls in GGXX. or make him have an afterimage like genei jin. its not like squig's levels where its either normal/powered up.
2. remove the question mark from "ladies and gentlemen?". the game has two gentlemen now, so its not really a question any more, is it?
I was more so talking about core gameplay changes. Changes like the ones you have suggested here are fine by me
 
Dolfinh said:
After playing beta for a few weeks, playing my first retail set in a while the other day just didn't feel nearly as good as it does in beta. The extra health and undizzy changes make the game feel SO MUCH better.

i know about the health changes but what are the undizzy changes? is it the being able to post flash block supers with undizzy remaining or something else?
 
Evilweevle said:
i know about the health changes but what are the undizzy changes? is it the being able to post flash block supers with undizzy remaining or something else?
That plus undizzy draining slower the more a player has & only half of it being reduced on a ground tech vs a reset to zero.
 
Zazz said:
The game should probably get two beowulf based changes:
1. beowulf probably needs some kind of visual indication of what hype level he's got (whether zero/one/two/three). if otter isn't gonna work out with something like a new meter, but place some kind of aura on him. or markers like zappa's raoh souls in GGXX. or make him have an afterimage like genei jin. its not like squig's levels where its either normal/powered up.
2. remove the question mark from "ladies and gentlemen?". the game has two gentlemen now, so its not really a question any more, is it?

1. You know what level hype beowulf has based on the stuff that appears on screen when he gets a new level. So no need for a new meter or anything.

2. Hahaha I never noticed that
 
Yooo this game doesn't need system wide scaling / combo length changes.
We good y'all.

And yeah, we got a giant tuba man and a wolf man so the "Ladies and Gentleman(?)" thing could probably be changed.
 
i also think there should be some kind of UI modification whenever Robo comes out to indicate its the version of the game with the last new character.

like how one can tell each and every version of GGXX apart instantly just by looking at the burst icon.
 
Zazz said:
i also think there should be some kind of UI modification whenever Robo comes out to indicate its the version of the game with the last new character.

like how one can tell each and every version of GGXX apart instantly just by looking at the burst icon.

How, something subtle like tinting the brass a different color? Because anything else would be silly and reinventing a very nice UI design for no reason. Besides, you can already immediately tell the different versions of SG apart (for the most part) by the legitimate improvements that Lab Zero have made across the past 3 years.

  • Vanilla/SDE: No palettized portraits, wonky font for player names
  • MDE: Palettized portraits, no undizzy bar
  • Encore: Green bar to indicate perfects, undizzy bar
  • Beowulf: Undizzy bar flashes when full
 
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Zazz said:
i also think there should be some kind of UI modification whenever Robo comes out to indicate its the version of the game with the last new character.

like how one can tell each and every version of GGXX apart instantly just by looking at the burst icon.

Eh I mean its relevant for other games because the old versions are still playable if you've got the disc but older versions of SG are pretty much gone unless you've still got an unpatched SDE on your PS3.
 
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Flotilla said:
How, something subtle like tinting the brass a different color? Because anything else would be silly and reinventing a very nice UI design for no reason. Besides, you can already immediately tell the different versions of SG apart (for the most part) by the legitimate improvements that Lab Zero have made across the past 3 years.
You'd be surprised at how effective a color scheme change forces people to re-evaluate things.

I, for one, would be all about this, but there's really no color scheme you can use here that is fitting with the scheme.. I guess you can add tinges of silver, copper, I dunno. stuff

But I also think it is fine. Whichever works
 
I just had the original idea when I started watching a stream and it was in the middle of a match and was just thinking "is this the Beta?" because Beowulf or his stages were not being used.
Midiman said:
You'd be surprised at how effective a color scheme change forces people to re-evaluate things.
It would not be difficult to imagine a scenario where there are players (who are not familiar with all the updates) who are looking into Encore/Beta-wulf after only playing vanilla and seeing the same UI and coming to a snap decision that "oh it must be the same game"
 
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