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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

IsaVulpes said:
Stuff

I do not really see the problem, I suppose

Tearshot is possibly THE reason they are so minus on block, bc then there might be really dumb stuff she could do in pressure.

Also, how does having a plus s.lp, cr.lp, and s.lk make good reasoning for a minus low? My point is that there is no known reason, or balance concern for having her low be minus. Why not have it be plus like every other character besides peacock, who has no light low moves? Also, Val and Parasoul" cr.lk are both 8 frames i believe, why not have val's also be +1 on block like para's?
 
alexpi said:
Corner Squigly combos vs headless Fortune is the best thing ever

Can squigly kill headless fortune in the corner at full health in a 2v2/3v3 for one meter? No? Painwheel can~

*edit*
Just found a solo corner combo that instant kills for 1 meter. So yeah. PW is like, the best thing ever against headless Fortune.
 
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Dreamepitaph said:
I mean....ok i wont bother asking my actual question on the character :/

Feel free to ask. That's the whole point of a forum. I stated my reasons in my large previous post.
 
well with the next new patches my old BnB is now dead with Beo's heavy chair toss throwing the opponent farther away. oh well back to the stupid old light chair toss for me. At least i can still combo the heavy chair toss into light ground wulf tackle, so i can still use it in an ending chain of a combo.

Edit: wow okay it doesn't ruin my BnB never mind just have to have my position just a little bit closer to the corner is just all. does the same damage so i'm fine.
 
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hp hurting hurl is strike invincible. I may have found my reversal assist!

Also, I really like the horus change. Makes it pretty much the same in combos but far worse as a combo starter ie a lucky hit.
 
Elda Taluda said:
Can squigly kill headless fortune in the corner at full health in a 2v2/3v3 for one meter? No? Painwheel can~

*edit*
Just found a solo corner combo that instant kills for 1 meter. So yeah. PW is like, the best thing ever against headless Fortune.
This is one bar if you don't count the snap
I guess it uses an assist but there's other stuff too yeah
 
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zeknife said:
This is one bar if you don't count the snap
I guess it uses an assist but there's other stuff too yeah

Hey even with the snap and assist that is awesome! Great stuff!
 
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I think fortune is a lot funner with head kicking and such and I very much appreciate that I can combo into headspike easier again.

If I could make some suggestions though.

- can we try having sneeze be a knockdown so the opponent actually has to worry about getting hit by this more? Would be nice if applied to the end of feral edge sneeze too.
- can we remove the head roll hitbox at the end of berserker? I'd really like to use this more but more often than not her combos end her up in the corner so I kinda can't really use it.
- can we maybe revert her old headless airdash? Or maybe just lower the minimum height slightly?
 
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I prefer head-on for the same reasons taluda does.

I get more reward for less effort so I've just been neglecting headless because the risk no longer feels worth it. (Although I've felt this way as of late while Taluda probably felt that way since he first used Fortune) Often times I just don't want to use headless because of the inevitable mistake that costs me all my pressure and my life. I still feel the mistake isn't as painful when I screw up with head-on.

Not that I don't use headless or anything. It's just not the super aggressive glass canon I feel it should be.
 
I dont understand what this damage scaling thing means, so if I use it once I will only start doing additional damage at 66% , but if my combo is already sclaling at 50% there will be no drastic change in damage scaling, so if im at 70% scaling Dive will auto bring it down to 66% scaling?
 
Basically, hitting with Horus Dive will bring down your damage scaling to 66%. If you hit with it in a combo when your damage scaling was already under 66%, it will not effect your damage.
 
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cloudKing211 said:
Also, how does having a plus s.lp, cr.lp, and s.lk make good reasoning for a minus low? My point is that there is no known reason, or balance concern for having her low be minus.
My point is that perhaps it has suboptimal frame data to give any use to her other buttons?
Why would you use sLK when it has worse startup, less range, isn't a low, and doesn't have a stellar hitbox? Because it's +5 on hit, while cLK is -1.
Why would you ever use cLK(2) which scales your combo to shit, if it didn't have the better advantage on hit/block? People don't even use it now..
- Imagine Parasoul's sLP was +3/+4 rather than -9/-6. Would anyone ever press her cLP (except perhaps to combo into cHP)? As it stands, it is your go-to tickthrow/frametrap button.
It is just more interesting when characters have multiple normals with differing purposes that all get used, rather than half the buttons being Fortune cMK-Tier.

.. It might also just be because like, characters are different?!
What is the balance reason for Squigly's sLP being +9/+7 while Double's is -3/0?
Why is Valentine's cLP +4/+7 while Fortune's is just +3/+4?
Is there an explanation for Peacock's sLP being +3/+4 while Fukua's sits on 0/+3?
etc
 
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I have a question for @Mike_Z

What was the intent with the nerf to Eliza's s.LP? Because of the reduced hitstun and it knocking the opponent higher away, I can't even combo s.LP > c.MK on an airborn oppoonent if they were at like head level with Eliza. If the goal was for me to never use this normal again, then it might have done the job.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
My point is that perhaps it has suboptimal frame data to give any use to her other buttons?
Why would you use sLK when it has worse startup, less range, isn't a low, and doesn't have a stellar hitbox? Because it's +5 on hit, while cLK is -1.
Why would you ever use cLK(2) which scales your combo to shit, if it didn't have the better advantage on hit/block? People don't even use it now..

I'd use it more if I could be sure it connects when crLK does. Right now it's a crapshoot unless you're right on top of the opponent.
For frame data of crLK, I suppose Val was concepted with a subpar crLK in mind (9f startup!) because she doesn't need to have an even better low/throw than she already has.
 
Today's Patch Notes BGM™ is...it is really awesome. Here it is:

General
- Differentiated bursts by color! Since blue/gold is the anime-game standard, an unpunishable burst now has a gold effect, and a punishable burst has a blue effect. Conditions for a burst to be punishable are the same as before, but now you can tell. This also exposed a bug in the burst logic! See if you can find it. Hee hee.
- Retimed burst spark so it's more noticeable now that color is meaningful.
- Burst spark is bigger on Big Band, because he's bigger. And Bander.
- Changed training mode vulnerable-box color from (0,255,0) to (0,220,50) - less saturated green, add some blue - in the hopes that this will help colorblind people be able to differentiate the red attack boxes better. The online colorblind tests I checked screenshots in looked better, but I'm not colorblind so...hope it helps!

Beta Experiments

Painwheel
- Unfly is now QCB+K / 214+K. Let's see if this causes problems, it's kinda easier than PP and kinda not, and you can still move forward during unfly with like QCB,F+K / 2146+K. Thanks whoever I forget that suggested it.
- As the only Lv3 in the entire game that can be hit and killed after the flash but before any active frames, Buer Overdrive now won't let Painwheel die until the armor is broken, without requiring her to have Hatred Install active. (All her armor naturally works this way during Hatred Install.) Big experiment, but you're spending a decent amount of meter on the super already.
http://steamcommunity.com/games/208610/announcements/detail/195114928717648908
 
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RemiKz said:
I have a question for @Mike_Z

What was the intent with the nerf to Eliza's s.LP? Because of the reduced hitstun and it knocking the opponent higher away, I can't even combo s.LP > c.MK on an airborn oppoonent if they were at like head level with Eliza. If the goal was for me to never use this normal again, then it might have done the job.

I can only really see using it once you've done the restand, but you have to work a bit harder on some characters on some of the restand combos.
 
RemiKz said:
I have a question for @Mike_Z

What was the intent with the nerf to Eliza's s.LP? Because of the reduced hitstun and it knocking the opponent higher away, I can't even combo s.LP > c.MK on an airborn oppoonent if they were at like head level with Eliza. If the goal was for me to never use this normal again, then it might have done the job.

From what Mike implied from last salty's stream, it seems like this is covering delay sLP's used as a restand, something Devita did often. While not to bad as a function, it was a little annoying to watch every time from how slow and awkward it was.

That said, I agree with you in that the change to sLP is just too weird. Even comboing sLP to sMK is finicky, so it just feels awkward to combo with Eliza now, or at least more awkward than it should be for what should be a basic chain.

As for the other change to Horus, at first I thought it was fine, but it honestly feels really limiting for *all* the uses Horus had. As a defensive tool, as a safe tool/special to throw out for spacing, as a confirm for certain normals (sMP being the most common), and a reset tool. I can see the logic with lowering its damage for these seeing how useful it was for everything, but it just feels frustrating to use now especially w/r/t a reset tool. Eliza's other overhead tools are all very finicky in their own ways, so while Horus has a lot of his own weaknesses at least it was consistent, but with this scaling nerf now it feels pretty weak too.

You said on the salty stream that she's more akin to a Glass Cannon than other characters in how she ended up, so things like hitting Eliza out of Horus makes sense. But I don't think I like this change when it comes to her offense, especially when it wasn't overly strong in that area already (refering to Horus, not Eliza as a whole). At the same time, I don't want to buff her offense either. So...Can we just give her something a little something to make her offense more *consistent*?

If Horus as a reset tool is already worse, can we fix up IAD or Near-IAD jLK to hit overhead more cleanly to make it a better option? At the moment, IAD/Near-IAD jLK has a weird hitbox that on paper looks big, but actually whiffs on a bunch of crouchers in the corner (like a 50-60% chance with double and Filia, Val and cerebella have always given trouble in matches) from a combination of too high + extending too far horizontally. Same goes for using IAD jLK as a crossup tool, which is always very finicky; I was actually alright with this previously since it was a risk worth evaluating vs a more consistent overhead tool in Horus. She has other overhead tools with sekhmet, jHP, jMP and jMK but each of them bring up even more awkward situations than jLK (esp jHP as a crossup).

tl;dr - can we fix up Eliza jLK the same way you fixed up Filia jLK? aka the tool won't get any new uses that it already couldn't before for the character, but just make it work better in lieu of making the more consistent tool in that niche worse? I wouldn't even mind if it made IAD jLK crossup not work anymore if it would stop whiffing from point blank.
 
fenster said:
From what Mike implied from last salty's stream, it seems like this is covering delay sLP's used as a restand, something Devita did often. While not to bad as a function, it was a little annoying to watch every time from how slow and awkward it was.
Could it not just drag people down faster? Ironically now you have to delay it to combo into MP.
 
Every character can delay a chain in order to get a restand, that just sounds like a terrible reason to make the s.lp a lot less usable
 
I was indeed quite annoyed by hitstun/hitstop due to sLP delay sLP delay sLP taking way too much time for what it is.
No idea what the pull down people does or doesn't allow, and I don't know if it was annoying enough to ruin things? No idea

I'm all for IAD jLK becoming reliable at the cost of jLK crossups :~

I do like the Horus changes..
 
What exactly distinguishes a character having a good or bad low/throw? If the options of low throw remain the same, then it has to be the advantage that the options themselves give the character. Every character, either for one meter, specific assists, or no meter gets a conversion off of a throw or command throw.

In a situation where a rule seems to be followed (ie: Every other L low-hitting normal is + on block), the reasoning "character differences" is just wrong. Val cr.lk x1 is the only L low-hitting move that is minus on block. All I wanted to know was the reasoning behind its current frame data. With the experiment with double's cr.lk, I decided to make a comment on Val's, which was a unique case.
 
@fenster

The way I avoid having iad j.lk whiffing on a crouching character is to jump forward and iad backwards.
 

Was just messing around today in arcade testing some new Beowulf stuff when I found this strange new interaction. Beowulf's first punch of his level 3 seems to miss against every character in the newest patch build. Happened to several characters including Fillia, Beowulf, Valentine and Painwheel. I think it might be against the whole cast.
 
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RemiKz said:
@fenster

The way I avoid having iad j.lk whiffing on a crouching character is to jump forward and iad backwards.

Yeah I've done that sometimes but tbh I'd still rather change it since A. thats kind of weird so its not easy to tell other people "this is how you overhead reset" (or at least, weird for someone who hasn't played other air dash characters? I never really heard or seen people have to do that kind of travel for overheads for other characters I think) and B. doesn't solve the crossup weirdness thing (unless Mike would take that out), at least when I tested it Jumpforward ad back never crossed up?
 
H shadow is acting weird with c.hp's ground bounce.
This thing started to happen with this update. If you delay a little, it works, but this is bothering me.
retail version for reference.
it*
 
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noon leave IAD J.LK crossing up ;_;
 
Fightman said:
Was just messing around today in arcade testing some new Beowulf stuff when I found this strange new interaction. Beowulf's first punch of his level 3 seems to miss against every character in the newest patch build. Happened to several characters including Fillia, Beowulf, Valentine and Painwheel. I think it might be against the whole cast.
Spotted this too. After looking it up in training with hitboxes and advanced attack data, I noticed there is now no red box in the move until the second punch.

So yeah, the first punch won't hit anyone because there is technically nothing it can hit with.
 
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Fightman said:

Was just messing around today in arcade testing some new Beowulf stuff when I found this strange new interaction. Beowulf's first punch of his level 3 seems to miss against every character in the newest patch build. Happened to several characters including Fillia, Beowulf, Valentine and Painwheel. I think it might be against the whole cast.

This was my mistake. Overwrote the file for Beo's hitboxes to give him proper boxes instead of temp ones and didn't properly retain the attack hitboxes for the first punch. It'll be fixed in the next update. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!
 
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Mike_Z said:
- Unfly is now QCB+K / 214+K. Let's see if this causes problems, it's kinda easier than PP and kinda not, and you can still move forward during unfly with like QCB,F+K / 2146+K. Thanks whoever I forget that suggested it.

This causes input ambiguity if you're trying to do 214K or 21K4 negative edge. If you do 21K4 negative edge then you do j.1K, then it's kara canceled into fly, instead of unfly as intended. PP to unfly has no such issue.
 
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Will experiment with this new unfly input, but my gut says ill like the older input better.

Perhaps keep both inputs? And maybe even make it so that 214 unfly gives the forward moving unfly?

Man that would be soooo awesome.

A man can wish.
 
I really don't like this new unfly input. I know you can keep forward momentum by doing 2146kk4, but that is way more annoying than the old way, and is a bigger tell in neutral that you're about to unfly since you wiggle around a bit. There are certain setups that use unfly to crossup or become more plus on certain things that are more annoying to do now as well. It's double the inputs for the same thing, leading to situations where the input for unfly at low heights from a fly cancel is like a Street Fighter super/ultra and then you have to hold a direction on top of that to get momentum conserved. PP for unfly was great I thought, no idea why it needed to be changed
 
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