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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

what your idea for Fortune Twerk, or Khaos' idea? cause both seem interesting to play out in the beta. Fortune's zoom! attack should hit low and cause a blue bounce, imo. It would also be cool if you could be able to hit the head after she has done her sneeze attack. That would give her move far more use in block strings and would give a slightly better confirm off her Feline Edge super into allergies.

or is that a stupid idea? i'm not an expert on the cat.
 
my idea was just a pure joke. i would gladly try out khao's idea. i also would like to see not zoom but nom be a low.....wait no i don't. is there ever a low hitgrab?

anyways i have NO clue on what would make headless "worth using" atm i use headless for shits and giggles and its FUN! my only reasoning for zoom or nom was that people are downbacking it anyways(poor excuse) moving on. her air dash height i am def not a fan of and i pondered why would i give up my fluid airdash for a better neutral with a stiff air dash? I DUNNO i play easy characters that is all!
 
uh, no i don't think there is a low hit grab in the game. Or any game, i think. :C I just feel like when headless Fortune gets all of these moves that you would think promote the player to use the head for block strings and to have the opponent guess if a low slide or an overhead lk is coming in after a head attack. Because the rekka is nerfed when headless and that's Fortune's greatest way to get damage and to extend a combo via the rekka slide. Idk, maybe i just feel like Fortune's Head should act a little more like RockMan's Soccer Ball in MvC, having it bounce around and making the opponent keep on their toes.
 
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Zoom hitting low sounds... ew. I just really don't like the sound of that. If she happens to be super jumping around keeping the head out of sight, you shouldn't need to worry about "is she going to go for a jump-in first or is she going to use the head that's out of my sight to hit me low first?"

I already know people are going to hate the airdash heights being switched (I suggested it and I hate it), especially since in previous versions people were saying, "What's the point in playing head-on?" We'd just go back to that. Like seriously the airdash height limit ain't that bad. A larger buffer on getting an attack out of headless airdash would still be nice, though.

Headless will be worth using when people actually start utilizing the tech that others have found for her. There's stuff out for her but it's like people are just ignoring them!
 
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fortune is supposed to be the puppet character of the game. while it should be the case that both headless and head on should be really good, imo if you had to make one definitely better than the other why not headless? i thought headless was the main idea of the character to begin with. and now instead it's considered by most to be the harder, inferior part of fortune that most players will tell you to not bother with.

(i say this now but watch i'm going to be one of the first people to complain when/if headless gets buffed and becomes kinda insane again)
 
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Headless Fortune's airdash is janky and not fun to use, that's the problem. I don't want to take the airdash from that height and give it to head on Fortune. I would like to see an experiment with a lower airdash height for headless Fortune that may or not be the height of the old headless Fortune (and it probably won't be the original height although I think it should be lower than it is currently).

Switching the airdash heights would just frustrate people into playing headless rather than making them actually want to learn her. Headless Fortune's airdash just feels really bad. KhaosMuffin's idea would also be a good thing to try. I just want it to feel less janky when I go for IAD j.LK, j.MK after I headbutt someone, or use the move in neutral because it feels really terrible.

Zoom hitting low is not a good idea at all.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
Zoom hitting low sounds... ew. I just really don't like the sound of that. If she happens to be super jumping around keeping the head out of sight, you shouldn't need to worry about "is she going to go for a jump-in first or is she going to use the head that's out of my sight to hit me low first?"!

Honestly, zoom being low would be a great incentive to go Head-Off that fits in with Ms Fortune's mechanical theme, where Head-On is more solid and rounded, but Head-Off has monstrous pressure, mixup potential, and longer-range neutral, at the expense of when you fuck up your defensive options are RIP. It's not like Ms Fortune has any low-hitstop air normals so she couldn't get legitimate hard-to-blockables solo with her own head.

You can upback away from head attacks anyway, and in Beta you can upback away from air normals, so at neutral doing a jump in->Zoom or Jump-in->j.LK are both options that would be beaten by a pre-emptive upback if Ms Fortune was at normal jump height, and at neutral if she's doing sj->zoom then it really is your fault for not jumping earlier to escape zoom anyway.

The only situation of this being an actual real scary mixup is if you get a hard knockdown with head-off, then superjump on their wakeup, then meaty zoom will catch them upbacking, so they choose between block the zoom low(and risk you not doing zoom and coming down with a normal) or them upbacking and getting hit by zoom(which you might not be able to convert at superjump height?).

At normal height this would be much stronger, as meaty zoom or high or meaty zoom+block vs reversal would become really strong oki... But that seems like a pretty good incentive go to head-off, don't you think?

The entire problem prior to the mass of nerfs was that if you hit the head it wouldn't matter since it had barely any recovery, allowing her to potentially punish you or putting you into pressure for hitting the head WITH the head (!?!!?!??!) but now that it has more recovery, hitting the head locks it out like an assist. This makes improper head placement more punishing.

As the game gets more explored, people WILL find horrifying ways to punish Ms Fortune for existing. We already have terrifying vs solo fortune head punish combos that do ridiculous damage, so the obvious way to rek fortune is to snap her out to anchor which also renders her alpha counter very bad, then mix her up on incoming with an incoming mixup that hits the head first and is safe to her air super, so a launch->upback->call assist->something somthing something whatever.
 
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I always felt like the headless fiber and iad nerf were overboard. Everything else i agreed with though as far as the actual head nerfs.

Even the iad nerf isnt THAT bad imho... But the fiber nerf... Man that just seemed above and beyond to me.

But meh, i dont use fortune...

My problem with fortune is that head on bores me and head off seems to complicated for me learn :(
 
KhaosMuffins said:
I never thought I'd see the day where non-Fortune players are saying she may need some buffs.

I need a moment.
trust me after the dark days of sde i'm even more surprised i'm advocating for them than you are.

fiber nerfs are fine imo though, she still has supers if she wants to reversal. i do agree that she should be an offensive monster though. way more than head on. but at the same time head on is in a good spot right now and i'm not sure we should be touching that at all.
 
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I'm in the boat that zoom doesn't need to be a low. As well as Khaos' super jump low mention, the sandwich blockstring options would be nutty. I feel it would end up being stupid good.

That said, if I were to do change something about headless I'd suggest making it so that 5hp and zoom don't count as heavy attacks for undizzy purposes. They do abysmal damage for a heavy attack so I don't really see this being too unbalanced. 10-15 points at most. It could create new, more damaging combos as you would be able to do longer strings.

*edit* or something crazy! Make it so that head-on shk becomes a special attack headless can do if the head is close to reattach the head, transition back to head-on, then be able to combo into L fiber or Rekka stuff.

I actually got super excited at that idea! Granted it won't happen but hey XD
 
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That is actually like the greatest idea ever, I've always said that the one thing Fortune needs to make headless and head on both useful is an easy way to get from headless to head on without losing momentum.

Your idea is also significantly better than mine though, which was a level 1 super that is basically just head recall with super freeze.
 
She already can do that. It's just another head placement dependent thing though.


It's not optimal but no one even tried to make a better one.

If mike could please reduce the amount of time it takes to recall the head during a combo I'd be happy.

('cause currently it's a minimum of 15-20f I think) <--- I'm very unsure of this.

EDIT: Things I'd like

-Convert off of any hit of headless fiber
-Reduce time it takes to recall the head during a combo
-Lose one of the two penalties headless has (or at least reduce health loss on the head to 25% maybe 15% if you're feeling generous)
-I can't think of another one but those seem annoying enough.
 
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I know that exists and that is specifically why I said easy haha. Getting from head off - head on is a pretty specific thing right now.

Faster head recall would work, but how much faster?
 
Well no one has really tried to find another one have they? There could be an easy one just no one wants to put in the effort to find it.

Honestly I'm not even sure I want to ask for buffs without trying everything I can possibly think of first. I know I clearly haven't explored everything headless yet.
 
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Stuff said:
Well no one has really tried to find another one have they? There could be an easy one just no one wants to put in the effort to find it.

Honestly I'm not even sure I want to ask for buffs without trying everything I can possibly think of first. I know I clearly haven't explored everything headless yet.


This.
 
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Maybe you can use assists to do it? Possible assists that can help put the head on mid combo?:
Cerecopter, A train, mk bomber, napalm pillar, Dive of horus, hk drillationship, H updo, beat extend +

A few of these are popular assists, the reason people haven't explored this option more is because head on is currently favored. Why learn "reheading" combos if you never want to learn headoff anyway?
I
 
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I'm aware of assist options and you can deal tons there but the goal was to find one for solo specifically in cases where an assist might be dead.

(I mean those are the obvious go-tos I can set up axekick loops if I want with an assist but finding things for solo to do specifically is great when you don't want to use a certain character or assist)

Finding things for solo is just better because then everyone else who wants to learn fortune or headless or w/e can also do them. Because like using assists to make your character better is the obvious thing to do so why buff any character when you can just use another assist that benefits the character where you feel it is weak?
 
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My feelings are:
  • Zoom does not need to hit low.
  • Air Dash height feels janky and not fun to play. This is probably the first thing I would change about head off. I really dig KhaosMuffin's idea of at least giving it a good buffer window so that it doesn't feel janky, but is more reactable than head on iad stuff (which is what was intended).
  • She doesn't need invincible fiber back. I think she's fine without it. I didn't pick up fortune until way after invincible head off fiber was removed, and I can't imagine how ridiculous this character would be if head off fiber was invincible.
  • Digging taluda's idea of the head not doing heavy undizzy.
I would really love to explore head off more because I think it is underdeveloped, but head off just isn't fun after playing head on exclusively for almost half a year. It feels janky and underwhelming right now, and it continues to feel that way even as I become more comfortable with it and experiment with it.

Also giving a nod to the head off squad of Stuff, Skippy, Khaos, and Fullbleed
 
cloudKing211 said:
Maybe you can use assists to do it? Possible assists that can help put the head on mid combo?:
Cerecopter, A train, mk bomber, napalm pillar, Dive of horus, hk drillationship, H updo, beat extend +

A few of these are popular assists, the reason people haven't explored this option more is because head on is currently favored. Why learn "reheading" combos if you never want to learn headoff anyway?
I've been doing that with copter since I started playing fortune...
 
Tomo009 said:
Your idea is also significantly better than mine though, which was a level 1 super that is basically just head recall with super freeze.

iirc this was in the publicly-available to-do list under Fortune experiments but Mike shot it down a while ago.
I wouldn't mind trying the opposite, ie a low damage Sniper that removes the head.
 
I really like Stuff's idea of being able to convert off headless Fiber and would actually give her some offensive anti air options vs high priority players. As much as i'd love it and everything, Zoom! doesn't need to hit low but maybe still knockdown armored moves somehow? Also something I've been fighting and griping about is her Axe Kicks. While I can cope with L and M versions not being a high, H axe kick not being a high bothers me to no end since you can only chain it with a re-stand j HK out of the corner. It's sliding knockdown properties are pretty worthless since you can only get it with a Launch > H Axe kick (and the link there is pretty awful and it's just an overall weird thing to do) Maybe decrease the startup frames so we could use it normally again because imo it's pretty worthless atm (you can be grabbed out of start up lol)
I also liked the idea of reducing the time of calling the head mid combo but there would have to be some sort of trade off.

And please don't say "but axe kick loops" because of obvious reasons. Those loops are not common at all during normal gameplay and the timing between hits is funky sometimes.
 
Yeah I can confirm after playing some Painwheel today that I got enough accidental refly to get on my nerves.
 
+1 to the input buffer request for headless air dash
+1 for headless fiber conversions
+1 for zoom armor breaks
-1 for low zoom
 
Haha yes let's have nom AND zoom fuck over armor surely nothing will go wrong

EDIT: Since we're making beta suggestions with no regard for Lab Zero's sanity, can Big Band's tauntboost timpani put the opponent closer to you?

As it is, tauntboost timpani is arguably worse than normal timpani midscreen because you can't do followups off it without your opponent being close to the corner, unlike normal timpani. Also, the extra damage you get from the bell is less than the damage you would get from following up on the normal version. Tauntboost timpani also uses up soundstun which further limits you in those situations where you can follow it up.
 
Ok. can we try something else? Is headless good? YES(the majority thinks she's fun) should headless be encouraged? yes! Is it being used by the whole yet little fortune players? NO!

What is the main problem? does fortune need an adjustment in the headless department? if not say why. if so then SAY WHY.
 
Oh yeah, nom, the hit grab. I forgot that's why zoom doesn't break armor.
 
Flotilla said:
Haha yes let's have nom AND zoom fuck over armor surely nothing will go wrong

EDIT: Since we're making beta suggestions with no regard for Lab Zero's sanity, can Big Band's tauntboost timpani put the opponent closer to you?

As it is, tauntboost timpani is arguably worse than normal timpani midscreen because you can't do followups off it without your opponent being close to the corner, unlike normal timpani. Also, the extra damage you get from the bell is less than the damage you would get from following up on the normal version. Tauntboost timpani also uses up soundstun which further limits you in those situations where you can follow it up.
I have sort of stopped taunting entirely for these reasons, and also because taunt boosted Super Sonic Jazz is insanely punishable on whiff in situations where the normal one would be mostly safe.
 
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Horus change made me cry, which i guess means it is doing what is supposed to do, but would it be too strong if it was like Parasouls bike where if Horus is out long enough hitting eliza wont cancel him?
 
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Tomo009 said:
Yeah I can confirm after playing some Painwheel today that I got enough accidental refly to get on my nerves.

I made it 2 minutes in training. It is super frustrating.

And taunt boosted BB supers are only worse until they aren't. Catch an assist with one? Good bye assist.
 
Spencer said:
And taunt boosted BB supers are only worse until they aren't. Catch an assist with one? Good bye assist.

That's actually wrong in timpani's case because assists fall out of tauntboosted timpani, whereas you can continue to hit both point and assist after normal timpani by positioning them under you.
 
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Zoom breaking armor was really worse than it being a low? lol
 
Flotilla said:
That's actually wrong in timpani's case because assists fall out of tauntboosted timpani, whereas you can continue to hit both point and assist after normal timpani by positioning them under you.
Adding something similar to Val's lvl 3 cinematic cut, like holding PP to not apply the taunted portion of the super would solve this.
 
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Why do people want zoom to break armor if nom can accomplish that?
 
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