Spotlight Skullgirls with 6 Buttons or 8 Buttons?

[Mike_Z]

SoiD(hold) xx Argus would require a weird button configuration

If you already have an SoiD held, yes. If you want to actually do SoiD xx Argus, you can actually let go of the SoiD button for up to 15f and re-press it. I usually do QCB+HP, QCT+MP+hold HP again.

Still, it's odd to see 8-button players being somewhat ostracised with more or less loose ideas of tournament bans (offline stick specific) or build-in macro delays (not offline stick specific), in a game where macros were in the game from the very beginning, on by default and mentioned/suggested by the tutorial itself. Surely people don't have to feel inferior just for using the options they were given.

I don't think I'd ever DO anything like that, sheesh. It's just interesting to note that those things are possible and wouldn't affect the majority of uses for which macros are considered 'legit' even by strict standards.
But like I keeeeeeeeeeeeeep saying, macros exist to help pad players because a pad is not the input device fighting games were designed for. Thus if stick players wish to use them when they are available, fine, but no pains will be taken to ensure they continue to be available to stick players.
I mostly care about any kind of single-button-covers-ten-situations OS junk with macros, because (given that you can't miss a button and not get the input with a macro) that is a case where they provide a legitimate advantage, if such cases exist.

I feel like I should mention that if SG were included in Evo

Spoiler

in an alternate timeline or something ::cries himself to sleep::

macros would probably be banned if you play on a stick, because that has been the de facto tournament standard for all games ever. Even ones like MvC2 or GG, which offer in-game button macros that are enabled by default!

Generally using macros on stick is looked at as akin to using a Turbo function - an unnecessary advantage provided by some hardware that should be ignored or else you're cheating.

 

[Kuro Val Enix]

I play SG with 6 buttons even though I have a Qamba stick (8 buttons) and I'm doing fine, I use macros only on the "select a character" screen to select my team ^^. Leaving what I do, I feel it isn't right to forbit other Stick players to use macros in SG, unless it's a tournament. SFIV allows macros, KOF allows macros, BB/GG/P4 allow macros, all FG allow macros in their Home edition, even if in their arcade edition they don't have the buttons for macros.
If we're talking about Competition, I'm fine with the ban of macros since that's the rule almost every FG has in tournaments, but in their home edition I feel everyone should be playing like they want.

 

[Icky]

I use the macro buttons as dedicated assist buttons, and I play stick. IF macros are banned for stick players at tournaments, I see no reason why they wouldn't also be banned for pad players.

This is the first time that I've heard that I'm not playing the game as intended or whatever and I really don't see how having assist macros is another but a quality of life decision.

 

[Shin ATproof]

The last time I used a macro for my stick was in SDE with Double. Fun times.

 

[obregon]

Played 6 button on stick for a long time, then started using setups where I'd use assist to catch upbacks in prejump and having an assist macro made hitting a small frame window easier (particularly in cases where if I hit a button in a two-button assist call a frame late I'd accidentally chain into a normal I don't want).

Now no-preblock on assists got removed in beta so it's back to glorious 6.

 

[Handsnfeetface]

Seems to be a bit of confusion about this subject. If someone were to set up a series of inputs, such as Hornet bomber, to one button that would be a marco. Button binding is the issue, here. If it is assignable in the options of a particular game then it shouldn't be frowned upon for any person to use.

Now, the technique you choose to adopt and the hardware available is a different matter. The play style you choose is your decision and not having the availability of your style due to standardized hardware is your own problem to overcome. I mean, I'd love to drive my Brother-in-law's car (it's a nice car), but I never learned to drive stick. I know how to drive, but if I want to drive with that car I'm not going complain to him about it; it's on me to learn.

 

[Stuff]

I use macros and the diagonals so I don't care either way. Pressing two buttons at the same time is a daunting task I'm sure but you can all do it. But to my understanding Skullgirls is supposed to be a relatively easy game to play so I don't see why someone would want to remove macros which make it easier on some players.

Not that macros would be banned ever.

 

[Beuzer0]

My stick has 8 buttons but I use only 6.

 

[PKStoopKid]

Uh... I don't even know what Macros are but I play on controller so... 6 buttons?

 

[MetroKoolAid]

I really rely on the macros for my assists. I don't really even know what the assists are without the macros. I'll probably drop my macros whenever I get a stick. Makes me think of the learning curve I would have to go through just like I did switching to pad from keyboard (Was it just me or were quarter circles hard to do on keyboard?).

 

[erkicman]

I use an 8-button Qanba. I only use 6 of the buttons during gameplay. I have been hit due to a normal coming out during assist calls but whatever. I DO use the last 2 buttons for Entourages though. So I'll count myself as using a 6-button stick.

 

[dead]

"Other games have been worse about this"

It's an appeal to tradition fallacy, same as 6 buttons being standard in arcade and at tournaments, although that might also be an ad pop fallacy.

I bring my 8 button stick everywhere so it's not even a problem, if I don't use my own stick I drop combos. Trying to police control schemes is silly and ostracizing, especially when macros are available and tutorialized in the home edition that everyone in america plays. It would be like telling players they have to use the blazblue layout in persona or visa versa. It shouldn't matter as long as it's all treated the same in game.

 

[IsaVulpes]

macros would probably be banned if you play on a stick, because that has been the de facto tournament standard for all games ever.

Since when??

I know for sure that neither SF4 nor Marvel3 ban this?
Full Schedule had WIRED two buttons to be multiple DIRECTIONS (upback, upforward) at the same time, and it was allowed at some tournaments (UFGTX!).
People in SF4 either use eg PPP macros -- or worse, use the 8 buttons to have a 2nd LP and a rewired Select on their Stick, to get access to easier Back-plinking.

To quote the rulings from the (by your opinion) "best-run tournament ever"
http://ufgtus.wordpress.com/2014/03/16/hardware-button-bind-ruling-for-ufgt10/
"Hardware Button Binds, so long as they trigger all of their inputs on the same frame, will be allowed at UFGT10 and any of my future events. These Button Binds must be either directions only, or action buttons only."
Clearly allowing a Button that presses LMH at once -
And this is talking about REWIRING the stick to do things OTHERWISE NOT POSSIBLE IN THE GAME; an entirely different case from "Going to the Button Configuration and binding your buttons"

And obviously neither a hardware macro like that, nor doing something that is explicitly allowed by the game itself (Button Config!!) is in any way, shape, or form comparable whatsoever to Turbo - which is
1) Not part of the game itself
2) Multiple automated button presses, one or multiple frames apart
3) Allowing things which are humanly impossible (I can't press depress press depress the same button 30 times per second)
Turbo is more akin to programming a "macro combo", where I hit a button and then my Stick runs through an entire combo; that has literally nothing to do with the question at hand.

I have no idea how someone who wants to avoid Half Circles, laughs at games requiring 3 Buttons for Supers, hates execution this, hates execution that, gives leniency on every input, etc whatever.. suddenly thinks it's reasonable to expect everyone to be able to press diagonal buttons on the same frame (and it is crucial to get this right every time; If you do it wrong, your "Downback+Updocall vs a Low" turns from 'landing a combo on your opponent' into 'getting happy birthday'd'; about the hardest possible swing between "Got input right" and "Got input wrong" you can even have in the game) -
And it's not like this is for some "special technique" which beginners have no access to (PBGC, Wavedash, Similar - those aren't easy, but they're also clearly advanced mechanics, which you don't even attempt until you are experienced), but for literally the most basic thing one can do in this game sans moving the stick / using one of the 6 attack buttons.

5 Frame input delay on Macrobuttons on Stick sounds like the most convoluted arbitrary execution barrier anyone could even dream up. Are you trying to get hired by Capcom?

 

[mcpeanuts]

Full Schedule had WIRED a button to be DIRECTION+BUTTON at the same time, and it was allowed at some tournaments.

I thought this was because when Full Schedule explained his stick to Mr Wizard and asked if it was legal, Mr Wizard didn't understand the explanation. After he was corrected he was like "rofl nevermind that's not legal".

 

[Kongk4]

i use my macros for assists because i still find it very weird to hit diagonal buttons for assists. in vs games they have dedicated assist buttons so since that's what i played that's what i'm used to. i mean if this game could have dedicated assist buttons that would be great and i wouldn't care if macros went away but since that's not happening i'd be very upset if they were banned/somehow disabled

Same reason as this. To be honest, the only way I would completely accept a 6-button stick only tournament if the tag out and assist commands were switched.

Tags are only used for, of course, tagging in a different character and snap-backs. Neither of them are used as much as assists (at least from my experience and from what I've seen from other players). Assists are pretty much used constantly in (almost) every match, the current commands for them makes it just a little too odd for me to use while fighting. If they were switched, I could then press assists with ease and only adjust my fingers to press tag when I'm either near death or simply want to switch to someone else during downs.

Would it be weird to change em that way after all this time? Yes. Would it make snap-backs awkward to do during combos? Yes but, personally, they always felt awkward to begin with. :P

The only hinder for them being switched, would be changing characters actions during assist calls (I can't think of anything to word this any better). For example, if assists were MP+MK/HP+HK, then Fukua wouldn't be able to easily call Big Band/Parasoul (whom are placed in mid) and air HP Fireball at the same time unless she either has them on 3rd or runs ratio 2. (Granted she would still be able to MK Shadow and call assist)

TLDR: Mike Z PLZ switch tags and assist commands. #Bibletrump

Y'all get my point?

 

[Dinglejet]

I just use macros because when I used keyboard, my computer didn't respond well to more than one key being pressed at once, which led me to be untrustworthy of buttons

 

[Kuro Val Enix]

Same reason as this. To be honest, the only way I would completely accept a 6-button stick only tournament if the tag out and assist commands were switched.
Sure, it would be weird to change em that way after all this time? Yes. Would it make snap-backs awkward to do during combos? Yes but, personally, they always felt awkward to begin with. :P
Y'all get my point?

I'd hate to relearn what my muscle memory has learned in more than a year of SG. Then again, you could ask if they manage to get a B-type layout where you can use as a call assist, not just "modify it because it feels awkard to me".

Edit: also choosing what kind of Tag in you'd like in the controls settings should be fine

 

[IsaVulpes]

I thought this was because when Full Schedule explained his stick to Mr Wizard and asked if it was legal, Mr Wizard didn't understand the explanation. After he was corrected he was like "rofl nevermind that's not legal".

Yeah that was the original controversy, and UFGT later amended their rules to not allow it either, however I recall Full Schedule playing with the stick in a bunch of other tournaments.
Might be misremembering of course ~

E: Turns out I did misremember, he played at UFGT with it! Forgot his stick was just directions, rather than dir+buttons. Thanks fenster.

.. But either case it's beside the point, as it's a vastly different case (hardware mod) and the question of "are button bind macros on stick allowed in tournament play" has to be answered with a resolute YES based on the quoted ruling.

The only hinder for them being switched..

My first concern would be that A2 becomes awkward to call
MP+HK is decently natural to press with a normal hand position,
repeatedly calling A2 in neutral with HP+HK means you have to reposition your hand all the time

Not sure how it would feel, of course

The second concern is of simpler nature - that'd be a kind of exceptionally large change to the input mechanics, and the game is kinda old at this point.
Look at how some PW players are crying over Install becoming 421KK, simply because they're not used to the Input (and Install only "recently" changed to QCT-KK)

 

[Colossi]

I go for 10 buttons.
I have two grab macros and only god can judge me.

 

[clawmaster]

....<< I use pad...with an xbox 360 controller. I use pretty much every button on my controller except for the left thumbstick.

 

[Jet Set Dizzy]

I play 8 button stick, with both assists macro'd because I'm comfortable having my assists be single buttons because I learned 2d fighters with marvel 2.

Layout is like this incase anybody cares lol. Assists are on the inside because I am more comfortable playing on the outside buttons. A1 and A2 are switched because of lifebar order compared to marvel 2. Mostly assist using my thumb.
A2 LP MP HP
A1 LK MK HK

 

[IsaVulpes]

Assists are on the inside because I am more comfortable playing on the outside buttons.

Oh lord, that made me afraid of a layout like this

LP MP HP LK
MK A1 A2 HK

or this

LP A1 MP HP
LK A2 MK HK

 

[GrunkleBarlowe]

The banning of stick macros at EVO would make me not want to play Skullgirls. Macro options have always been available to pad players for years.

I am one of the most enthusiastic and optimistic people about the game. No single beta change, community member, or backlash from people both inside and outside the SG community has ever made me even consider dropping Skullgirls, but this tournament rule change would make me not want to play it. Something I didn't even think was possible.

 

[POS Industries]

Yeah, unless we were able to set the macros as dedicated assist only inputs (HINT HINT), making macro assist calls illegal would kill this game for me.

Also Evo allows 3P and 3K macro settings for SF4 (and the game also allows dedicated button settings for things like grab and focus), so I don't know why they'd suddenly come down on a feature that SG has always had and works with every standard stick anybody sells anymore with no mods whatsoever.

 

[WrestlerGuile]

I just use the setup given to me, plus the macros for assists because I usually never remember the how to get assists without macros and every other action other than punching or kicking, such as running or dashing. On arcade sticks, aren't there usually two buttons on the back or maybe above the stick portion? That would be a nice compromise setup.

 

[dekillsage]

I play pad and use 2 macro assists. I could never play any of the airdashers even with a macro for it, so I stuck with 2 assist macros and picked characters who didn't have airdashes.

 

[Hilary]

The banning of stick macros at EVO would make me not want to play Skullgirls. Macro options have always been available to pad players for years.

I am one of the most enthusiastic and optimistic people about the game. No single beta change, community member, or backlash from people both inside and outside the SG community has ever made me even consider dropping Skullgirls, but this tournament rule change would make me not want to play it. Something I didn't even think was possible.

Being in game options and tourney illegal has precedents though.

I don't remember running or participating in a single Tekken tag/3/4/5 tourney where macros were allowed

 

[SentsuizanXS]

I just think that having that option in the game as a bindable is fine for stick players as well as pad players being that it doesn't require hardware modification and doesn't enable you to do anything humanly impossible. Or you could just make assists (which seem to be the primary use for stick players) another separately bindable action.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I play 8 buttons and use macros. I use macros for raw assist calls and hit two buttons for assist calls in combos. I also use macros to call assist 1 during c.HK with Fortune as an assist extension, where I hit c.HK + macro 1, because I haven't figured out an ergonomic way to do it without doing that (maybe I'm a big dumb dumb though who knows). HK and any diagonal gives me assist 2 which I don't want

I use 8 buttons in SF4 too. I set the 8th button to 3P so I can plink links into ultras with HK when taunt is disabled. The option is there so I use it.

 

[ClarenceMage]

Pad is not the input device fighting games were designed for.

The year is 2014 Mike, people play on pad, stick, and hitbox. Arcades are dead or on life support in every single non-Japan country. The longer time goes by, the more that sticks & pads will be just a choice and not a standard. You made a fighting game that went straight to console, you should know this.

I feel like I should mention that if SG were included in Evo macros would probably be banned if you play on a stick, because that has been the de facto tournament standard for all games ever. Even ones like MvC2 or GG, which offer in-game button macros that are enabled by default!.

This is one of the silliest things I've ever heard. All this means is that sticks take actual execution to use, and pads instead of taking more execution with no macros, take -signficantly less execution than sticks- to use. It is, in the ruleset, giving an unfair advantage to non-stick player.

 

[fenster]

Yeah that was the original controversy, and UFGT later amended their rules to not allow it either ("Amendment: We won’t, however, allow you to bind a button that hits both a direction and an action button.]" - this was different in the original posting of the rules)

That's not what it did, because that's not what Fullschedule's stick did. Fullschedule's extra buttons were direction+direction, but what that amendment was talking about was for example direction+LP. The rest of the article is defending Fullschedule's stick, and it was indeed allowed at UFGT though the stick was banned at EVO. No idea if he still used the stick after Final Round though.

 

[IsaVulpes]

Oh right, I remembered it as being Upforward LP and Upback LP. Should read my own articles, it's mentioned at the top! Thank you.

 

[Dime]

The year is 2014 Mike, people play on pad, stick, and hitbox

And keyboard (gfarmer and magicman, because i guess they cant afford madcatz sticks or something) confirmed by magicman.

And you yourself also use keyboard on the train on your laptop to practice things on the hour long commute.

Just agreeing that stick as the only input device is outdated and old mechanics are outdated as well. There is no reason why we shouldnt be able to use 8 buttons, or 10 or 12 or whatever as long as those buttons dont allow for option select types of input, unless the game is designed with option select types of input in mind.



Also, we've all seen how macros can help out a stick player, but no one has talked about the need to learn 2 extra buttons which increases execution in itself. Because managing 8 buttons is harder than managing 6. Every once in awhile i lose my place on the buttons and end up hitting the wrong stuff. So there is a precedent for this. And it takes time to acclimate to 8 buttons. It took me 2 months to be completely comfortable with the extra buttons, as an example, and yeah every once in a blue moon i still get lost in the buttons and slide my entire hand over by one button and throw myself off.

 

[Sydoh]

Execution requirements.

If I could set a 3rd macro for dash, I would.

 

[ClarenceMage]

If I could set a 3rd macro for dash, I would.

If you could get two extra buttons on your stick, and make on of them right analog up and the other right analog down, you could have 10 button skullgirls on stick.

 

[Sydoh]

But I can't pick what buttons the right stick uses to call the assist.

 

[dekillsage]

Can we not have the hitbox player get more buttons to use

 

[ClarenceMage]

But I can't pick what buttons the right stick uses to call the assist.

Perhaps that should be an option to set right analog stick macros, so that pad players can be helped even more. ;)

 

[Sydoh]

Can we not have the hitbox player get more buttons to use

All the buttons.

 

[dekillsage]

Perhaps that should be an option to set right analog stick macros, so that pad players can be helped even more. ;)

Ohhhh man you're out of control.