Skullheart's changes.

[FuLLBLeeD]

The Beginner's section. You're not thinking about the transition from Beginner's section to the actual gameplay section or people who don't even go to that section before going to the gameplay section.

I'm really not sure what you mean by this. Its the same in the character forums. People ask really simple/basic questions and get tons of help/support.

 

[Stairwayyy]

Ashxu,you keep saying the mods aren't paying attention,but I've seen a few posts tha contradict that.I'd quote andcopy them here,but I'm too new to this site for that.Also,it's the holidays guys.Not many changes are gonna be reverted immediately,but then again,that's easy for me to say,I've been observing on the sidelines.

 

[shoryusatsu999]

I'm really not sure what you mean by this. Its the same in the character forums. People ask really simple/basic questions and get tons of help/support.

Again, that's your experience with Skullheart. Personally, I haven't seen anyone who could justifiably be called a newbie in the character forums. Then again, I haven't been seriously over there for a long time, so things may have changed since I was last there.

 

[Mr. X]

It was a deadlock among the mods on the fate of Off Topic. For whatever reason, it was carried out anyway with like part of a plan.

Since we are acting as if we are all one, it was a poorly constructed, poorly timed idea. Instead of a scalpel to the problem, a chainsaw was taken to it. We are now going to listen to each other before waiting for 20 people to repeat the same thing said a week ago.

It sucks that we are now saying "holidays brb" after creating this dilemma.

 

[gold163]

It was a deadlock among the mods on the fate of Off Topic. For whatever reason, it was carried out anyway with like part of a plan.

If this is the case then the staff members who haphazardly carried out an immature plan really ought to be reprimanded or at least reined in.

 

[shoryusatsu999]

That's... interesting.

I wonder who decided to do that while the other mods were debating.

 

[Mr. X]

Hold us all accountable since we should be checking and keeping each other in line and taking a position instead of apathy.

 

[gold163]

But I thought the mods weren't a homogenous group? Seriously, it feels like the only mods who are willing to have a conversation on this are the ones who are willing to admit the decision was premature.

 

[shoryusatsu999]

I'd rather focus what rage I have left regarding the changes on the one who's actually responsible for the behind-the-back changes than take it out on debating mods who didn't have as much to do with them. It wouldn't be fair to the second group if I did otherwise. After all, they're just trying to do their jobs. Also, if the offender went behind your backs like that, I doubt any checks or balances would have restricted them from doing what they did.

 

[Fizzxwizz]

it was me, I did it.

@shorysatsu999

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you but it really seems like you're saying people are being insulted and stuff for being new, but I recollect that happening at all. It would help your case if you brought up an event that would justify what you're saying but you're free to not do that.

It just reminds me of when people would say that there are "experts" who go into beginner lobbies to bully new people. I'm not denying the possibility of that happening but unless you want something to change one should probably have written down their name or taken a screenshot, something that could be used to help you. This isn't the wire and even though nobody is forced to talk about their experiences, nobody is going to get shot for speaking out.

On other topics, I'm not sure why people think they're being ignored by mods when there are mods actively responding to what people say.

One other thing though, why are people bringing up site traffic? I know a lot of people use adblocker but I think you'll find that there are no advertisements on skullheart and I'm not sure if the site actually depends on whether or not there are people coming here to survive.

One last thing though. Skullheart is may be a forum where we can all discuss most things freely, but it is not a democracy. I know this sounds like a political analogy but skullheart is an object. It is a website owned by a person and maintained by several people. It is their right to do what they want with it how they want. I think its great that we even have an official place to talk about skullgirls.

Personally I think it kinda sucks that OT is gone, I didn't use it super often but I was subscribed to some of the threads. I think the part I probably enjoyed the most about having ot was the fact that I could check every hour or two and have a notification to check and something to read. I realize other people were more invested in ot subjects though.

This is all just my 72 cents.

 

[Mr. X]

But I thought the mods weren't a homogenous group? Seriously, it feels like the only mods who are willing to have a conversation on this are the ones who are willing to admit the decision was premature.

We arent but when something like this happens, it becomes all of our problem.

I'd rather focus what rage I have left regarding the changes on the one who's actually responsible for the behind-the-back changes than take it out on debating mods who didn't have as much to do with them. It wouldn't be fair to the second group if I did otherwise. After all, they're just trying to do their jobs. Also, if the offender went behind your backs like that, I doubt any checks or balances would have restricted them from doing what they did.

We all had a hand in this blow up.

 

[Zidiane]

I'd rather focus what rage I have left regarding the changes on the one who's actually responsible

There's no point in focusing your rage at anyone. Present the best argument you can against these changes and support and echo the ones you agree with. If after that the mod team doesn't budge and the changes stay, decide whether or not you are willing to stay with the site. If you are, then move on and enjoy Skullheart. If you aren't, then move on and find somewhere else to hang (whether that somewhere else is SG related is up to you).

 

[Skullmageddon]

Damn, some o' ya'll need to calm yo titties

Just let it go for now, there's no reason to discuss this any further at the moment. Let's also not point out individuals or call people out for their mistakes. The mods are people to you know. Also, it is pretty clear from my perspective that the mods have taken everyone's comments into consideration and that they're trying to work out a solution. This is quite obviously something that won't work itself out immediately, nor will we-the-public be able to keep any tabs on the progression of the changes. They have to discuss, manage, make actual changes, etc etc and I'm sure they're trying really hard to make sure that they're doing the right thing.

We don't need no haters 'round here. We already got Vulpes, which should be enough for everyone :P

 

[shoryusatsu999]

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you but it really seems like you're saying people are being insulted and stuff for being new, but I recollect that happening at all. It would help your case if you brought up an event that would justify what you're saying but you're free to not do that.

I'm not saying that people are being insulted for being new (though that may have happened before). I'm trying to say that some newbies don't go to the gameplay forums and post a whole lot because they feel that they have little to contribute. I mean, what would be the point of posting a newbie combo in X combo thread when there's an optimized combo that's better in practically every way other than skill requirements? A newbie would feel intimidated in that instance because whatever work they put into making the combo turned out to be pretty much meaningless. I know I'm one of these cases, though in a different fashion. I thought I had some good stuff going in the game when it first came out, but life got in the way and I ended up getting so far behind that there's practically no way that I'll ever be able to catch up to the people who have been playing it day in and day out since launch.

There's no point in focusing your rage at anyone.

You're right. Getting super salty will get everyone nowhere. Guess I'll just wait and watch the fireworks, making interjections when necessary.

 

[dead]

There is a natural ebb and flow in between technical and casual discussion and you only drive people away by cutting off that stream. Great way to drive away casuals who could be seriosu players someday.

Ultimately the changes are anti community and ultimately detrimental to the SG brand.

Anybody who thinks new players are patronized or look down upon isn't using the same Skullheart I am. This community is one of the most helpful and friendliest I've ever been a part of. Nobody has ever been shit on for not being good at the game or not understanding how it works; quite the opposite, they are given nothing but help and support.

I don't know why "I'm new so I have nothing to contribute/my thoughts don't matter" keeps coming up in these conversations because it is not true.

They don't mean they would get mocked, it's that they (and me) have nothing really worthwhile to contribute combo wise, or don't know the balance of the game in and out. They're trying to not be scrubs by saying "such and such is op because I got booty blasted online." They're differing to experienced players.

 

[Dime]

Before the last few mod posts i was rather mad... Not throw shit mad or even super frustrated mad... Just... A different sort of mad.

But now after having read the mod posts, i realize that the people are being listened to and the mods are doing their jobs and are trying to rectify the situation. They are people to and can make mistakes. I understand they want to make skullheart a better and more inviting place to come and discuss skullgirls gameplay.

Having said that:


You guys should work a bit faster because the longer the leg is amputated the less chance of getting it reattached:

Once people make up their minds to leave, we may never get them back because they may well (rightly) feel highly disrespected, or have simply found a different place to go and hangout.

And one last thing:

There is less gameplay talk now because... The game is 2 and a half years old... Which is pretty damned old. And its still in a state of flux... How do we talk about tier lists when we dont even know the final jump height of the game or what properties of moves characters will have?

And then theres also the whole:

"Weve figured pretty much everything out already"

OF COURSE we havent figured out everything, not by a long shot, but its getting harder and harder to find new tech worth actually posting. And even when one DOES post new tech.. Even super powerful new tech... One gets like like no likes, or even any considerable conversation, or scared that said tech will get deleted by the "submit beta button"

So one doesnt really care about posting new stuff. Especially when half the readership lacks the ability to make sense of a thing just because it isnt grammatically perfect or comes in the form of a video with perfect editing.

 

[Fizzxwizz]

Honestly I would prefer it if new players posted videos or something of their combos that they think aren't good. In that situation people who are more knowledgeable are able to reply to them and point out reasons why it wouldn't be considered good. In that situation then there is the possibility of learning why its bad so that one can make corrections or help other people in the future that have the same problem yourself.

That being said I don't have a very good grasp of what goes on in the combo threads because I don't go there much at all but I'm pretty sure the most negative response anyone will get is no reply at all.

You might find out that if you start with shp instead of cmk you gain 350 extra damage or something idk I don't do combos.

Like someone said earlier, mostly nobody bites and theres at least two helpful people probably.

 

[chickenwithtie]

I too find the skullplayers here helpful, but in streams I noticed what Vulpes points:

When 90%+ of the community keep all their videos unlisted and share them with nothing but a close circle of friends, actively refuse to help other people cus they're scared they might lose in the future, refuse to tell you anything even when you're directly asking them, "save that shit for nationals" despite not entering tournaments, etc tbc, then *I* am uninterested in talking about anything as well. The circle of life, etc.
Fix this fuckass community full of human waste that cares more about self gratification in form of stroking their ego via netplay wins than it wants to help other people improve (which in turn would force them to get better, which in turn makes everyone stronger) and you are sure to get some decent discussion here. Won't happen, though.
But hey, we got "the nicest community in fighting games", heh. Just as long as you don't actually talk to anybody. But everyone smiles nicely, and nobody says "raped" during commentary! Yay.

I doubt this people will ever have a change of character and suddently help.
But some casual players should admit they just don't want to get better. They play this game just for fun with friends, and personally I think it's fine. As I said some time ago, people approach games differently.

Also can we get a guide on how to register videos, for beginners? What programs to use, how to get cuts etc. An already written guide from outside would be okay. Unless there is already and I just didn't check the beginner resources as well as I should

 

[DukeMagus]

Said it before and will say it again: give the mods some time! There was a fuckup, they're listening and answering and thinking things over again.

Let them think thoroughly and not rush stuff. Might take a week more, but it's better than making weird changes even them don't fully agree on and a lot of the community is against. Right?

 

[fenster]

E: Here is a very basic example of "what is wrong" with the gameplay section:
http://skullgirls.com/forums/index....-the-kingdom-matchup-thread.2136/#post-118975
...
I get a whole of 3 answers,; one 1-liner by sage "TLDR? Para wins 6-4"...

THIS is what makes me not want to post in the Gameplay section. THIS is what keeps people from even attempting to discuss anything. THIS is what makes people say "SH is garbage, just forget about going there if you want to get better".

I just want to point out that I think sages post, when I read it, was somewhat agreeing with you? In so much as the MU wasn't free like everyone said and, if anything, it had a small advantage. That's not very helpful, you're right, but to me it looks like he seemed to agree a little with the point you brought up (in that Squiggly is not a free MU)

Also, I thought I actually responded to that post a long time ago, and I guess looking back I never did. oops :x

- c.II) .. or I don't know, beat the fuckass shitass pisskids who take everyone's tech and advice but never give anything back into submission, until people are interested in sharing anything ever again? As it stands, I'm not.
When 90%+ of the community keep all their videos unlisted and share them with nothing but a close circle of friends, actively refuse to help other people cus they're scared they might lose in the future, refuse to tell you anything even when you're directly asking them, "save that shit for nationals" despite not entering tournaments, etc tbc, then *I* am uninterested in talking about anything as well. The circle of life, etc.
Fix this fuckass community full of human waste that cares more about self gratification in form of stroking their ego via netplay wins than it wants to help other people improve (which in turn would force them to get better, which in turn makes everyone stronger) and you are sure to get some decent discussion here. Won't happen, though.
But hey, we got "the nicest community in fighting games", heh. Just as long as you don't actually talk to anybody. But everyone smiles nicely, and nobody says "raped" during commentary! Yay.

I'm not sure if I'm included in here, but since I do have videos unlisted, I want to point out that I don't do so for other reasons not what you listed, one of them definitely being that I don't feel like I have anything to contribute ever.

And I dunno how you can fix something like this. You brought it up with the SRK/Alioune thing, but yeah top players have egos and are content to just do the occasional drive-by post and keep talk with "trusted" players who "really get it" for various reasons, probably because they don't want to get annoyed with theory-fighting when they know they have the actual-fighting down. That sounds bad, but really, I don't know what else can be done? Theory fighting exists in this weird vacuum where everyone can say stuff and there's no indication about who's right so a lot of players get annoyed. Someone can say for days, for example, that Parasoul in the air loses to squiggly, but if I know as a player how to counter-play that, you can see why it'd be frustrating for me to listen to people continuously say a thing they see as fact when it isn't the same for me.

That's why I like training diaries. It's a good mix of trying to apply and think both about things in theory fighting while keeping it in context of the matches on hand. People telling me "Once I get in on Fukua she's free to throws" doesn't help when the reason I'd lose is everything not related to that, but people telling me "try to predict the fukua pattern for when they try to go in with jLP/jHK and AA that" is tons more helpful.

I too find the skullplayers here helpful, but in streams I noticed what Vulpes points:

I doubt this people will ever have a change of character and suddently help.

Can you tell us, specifically, what things you are looking for that you feel will help you but top players are keeping from you? It'd help a lot in this area to know what things you think people are keeping from you.

Also can we get a guide on how to register videos, for beginners? What programs to use, how to get cuts etc. An already written guide from outside would be okay. Unless there is already and I just didn't check the beginner resources as well as I should

"Registering videos"? Anyone can make their own thread and post videos. Do you mean how to make/upload a video in general to youtube?

 

[chickenwithtie]

I'm not saying top players are stopping me. I am learning. I'm using resources. I'll ask if needed. I just noticed some jerkiness, like Vulpes pointed.

Registering videos. A guide on how to capture footage of Skullgirls.

 

[fenster]

There is no "registry". That's not a thing? Also there's probably 10000000x the amount of guides to make videos than there are anything SG related but I guess I'll have to break it down?

You generally:

1. Record Footage

Spoiler

Download Open Broadcast software, play Skullgirls, tell OBS to Play Skullgirls on that little screen, and hit the "Record" button

2. Upload said recording

Spoiler

Find location of recording on your computer. Have a YT account. Hit the "Upload Button". Drag the file on the big space

3. Post said video somewhere on SH

Spoiler

Bang head against keyboard and hit "Post reply"

 

[mcpeanuts]

I'm not saying top players are stopping me. I am learning. I'm using resources. I'll ask if needed. I just noticed some jerkiness, like Vulpes pointed.

Registering videos. A guide on how to capture footage of Skullgirls.

OBS is usually what I use to record Skullgirls gameplay.

I don't think fenster was trying to be a jerk, I think calling it "registering" videos is an unusual thing to call it and he probably didn't know what you meant (I wasn't sure at first either).

 

[chickenwithtie]

sorry about that, english is not my first language.

 

[fenster]

That makes sense then, and yeah "registering" has a different implication in english than what we normally do with videos, which is "uploading".

I wasn't trying to be a jerk with that, I honestly don't know what things that the general non-tournament/fgc/tryhards/whatever you call it know and don't know, and I thought maybe some people thought you had to submit match videos and such for approval here or something, which you don't. But in general yeah, there are tons and tons of resources out there for recording/uploading if you just search.

 

[WrestlerGuile]

I wish we did have a locked thread area so that we could have a few laughs and see what mistakes got threads locked and prevent it.
Why is Off-Topic gone though? To be honest, I did frequent Off Topic more than any other part of the forum, but I would occasionally go to Gameplay to discuss utilizing Painwheel correctly. Although when I first found this forum, I did ask about Painwheel and other characters more frequently.

Learning gameplay is what got me into this forum, but Off Topic kept me staying.

 

[shoryusatsu999]

Why is Off-Topic gone though?

Some specific reasons off the top of my head:

• OT was hogging the recent posts and What's New? boxes, so little exposure was being given to gameplay topics
• OT was so much more active than the gameplay sections that, as one of the mods put it, Skullheart was becoming more of a forum about "Skullgirls culture" than one about Skullgirls itself

Everything seems to stem from the mods not being happy about the lack of discussion going on in the gameplay forums.

 

[TheMightyBox]

I mean that's kinda just what happens when you've got 4 or 5 subforums dedicated to the updates of a single game and one subforum dedicated to literally anything else.

I do not know how you'd expect discussion on Skullgirls alone to outnumber all discussion on every other piece of popular media in existence, regardless of what the forums based on.

 

[shoryusatsu999]

Plus, most of the really serious players probably aren't going to go and post their findings in a gameplay thread. They're much more likely to go to events and actually play the game than discuss it.

 

[Clawsome Bombs]

I went to an event at Ignite once
It was horrible all the big mean competitive players wiped the floor with me and told me to get gud
I played a bunch of cool people, including Night Phyre and Duck and I learned a lot. Talking about the game in person is also better because you can be like "oh really does that work, let's play a match right now and test that"

 

[Skullmageddon]

Perhaps there are some ways in which we can incentivize players to post more game related content? Combos, tech, strategies, matches, that sort of thing.

I don't post often, but I do occasionally post tech and combo stuff. I pretty much only do this when a character first hits beta, when I find something that I think is worth sharing, or if someone specifically asks for some help and I have info that would be useful for them. Having an incentive helps give me a reason to post content, even if it's something as simple as someone asking for help.

 

[Number 13]

Sheesh back from holiday vacation [happy holidays to you people too!] and the fire is still burning with no sign of Rosco Mcqueen [kudos if you get the reference without using google]. After taking another read in this thread gonna keep this relatively short mostly to echo what some other mods already said. You know, got to maintain some form of unity. Note though that the stuff I'm saying below is just observations from my perspective and may or may not be an accurate reflection of future moderation direction since I do not speak for the entire staff.

1. You are not being ignored if anyone has been getting that initial impression since this whole fiasco started. Far from it so don't feel like the senpai is not noticing you. At least the more legitimate feedback posts that is something more then "stupid mods", "#freebonk", "insert witty image macro here", etc shitposts are definitely not going in one ear and coming out the other. Just because a mod is not specifically replying to your post doesn't mean we wiped our asses on your posts. I would not have wasted what limited time I have here [especially during this time of the year] not doing anything constructive for the site like reading feedback, address posts that are within my ability, and voice my feedback to the staff.

We have been replying either in this thread or that other thread, but not obviously at the rate to keep up with the outcry while filtering out the zero substance shit posting. That kind of happens when volunteer staff are a tiny fraction of the userbase that end up being busy too. Not saying being busy is an excuse that you have to accept for making the impression we are making slow progress for the site being updated, but it is what it is and all that is left is to push forward. This for better or worse has become one of the hotter topics in this site because of the controversy surrounding this move. Kind of makes it hard to ignore even if you want to ignore it. At least if you want to maintain your credibility as a mod. Just because you can't see the mods taking your posts seriously doesn't mean it's not happening.

Combine that with the busy holidays and yeah slower progress happens on both ends. In hindsight, executing this move during the holidays where people [including the staff] would naturally have less time to be here was probably not a wise move, but we can't waste time on regrets if we hope for progress to happen.

2. Reason why [if any] changes are not being reverted instantaneously is because of a few factors.

A. As already mentioned above, holidays take up more of your personal time which means less time on this site. When we have staff not on this site, progress is naturally slowed down for any site decisions to be brought up and discussed. This should at least be resolved to an extent once New Years passes since holidays would pass, no more finals, other distractions etc. December sucks if you want to make time for things.



B. The staff is not a Hive Mind like a colony of ants. If we were then progress would actually be quite fast since there would be no need for discussions with each other. The thing is we are not all a bunch of 'Yes Men' and I'm personally glad we are not because that would mean it would put a cap on the potential for this site growth if we limit our personal opinions. We all have different perspectives on subjects. Like any debate organization, we need to run by statements with each other, either accept/challenge it, and then possibly either implement or reject the notion. Unfortunately that would have to require some time for the entire process to clear, but quite frankly I personally prefer spending too much time before making decisions then too little because your more likely to get positive results that way. Considering that kind of mentality has served us well for the site growth/evolution since the birth of SH I still don't regret that. Unfortunately this particular topic may not have been one of those good decisions.

C. In regard to the removal of OT specifically, while it may be one of the more evident site changes it was far from the only thing being changed. Some of the changes will be more obvious then others to you people. Maybe only a few of these changes will actually personally effect you with your normal posting activity. The point is while the OT removal was overall badly received, that doesn't mean if OT is coming back it would be the #1 priority. Otherwise progress on the other changes will continue to lag with progress.

3. This is just a notice for the scenario if OT will be coming back. If it does in fact come back it would be highly unlikely it would be back how it was 100%. There has been too many issues in that section to be ignored by staff which was probably why this kind of decision happened in the first place. This is coming from someone who has made several threads in OT, participated in active discussions, and even lurked in a few others. It needs some action of reforming because OT can't be known as that shitposting section especially for an official affiliated forum. Those who were active OT visitors know what I'm talking about. That doesn't mean OT didn't bring some positive thread discussions on x subject. As someone who is an active visitor of that area I recognize this as well. The point is again if OT is coming back, it would come back once Staff figured out how it would come back.

TLDR: Please be patient with us, don't lose faith in us, and continue being an excellent community as per usual. Yes I realize this wasn't as short as I planned.

 

[FuLLBLeeD]

I'm not saying that people are being insulted for being new (though that may have happened before). I'm trying to say that some newbies don't go to the gameplay forums and post a whole lot because they feel that they have little to contribute. I mean, what would be the point of posting a newbie combo in X combo thread when there's an optimized combo that's better in practically every way other than skill requirements? A newbie would feel intimidated in that instance because whatever work they put into making the combo turned out to be pretty much meaningless. I know I'm one of these cases, though in a different fashion. I thought I had some good stuff going in the game when it first came out, but life got in the way and I ended up getting so far behind that there's practically no way that I'll ever be able to catch up to the people who have been playing it day in and day out since launch.

So people should just never bother to post about gameplay? I'm really not understanding what your argument is here.

OBS Tutorial

This is exactly the kind of support/help I'm talking about by the way. You can see it right here in this thread.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I said everything I had to say in the previous thread. Getting rid of off topic forums is an anti common sense move that will hurt activity in the "on topic" gaming forums. Pretty much every major and official forum I've ever been to had some form of off topic forum, almost all of which were extremely active (sometimes more active than the on topic forums, which was never a bad thing). Off topic actually can boost the popularity of on topic (which I explained several times in the previous thread, but don't feel like writing another paragraph now), so all you're doing here driving activity down for everybody.

 

[TheMightyBox]

So people should just never bother to post about gameplay? I'm really not understanding what your argument is here.

He's not saying that they shouldn't, he's saying that they don't usually.
He's saying that when a new player goes into the gameplay forum, they're not looking to share what they know, they're looking to see what other people have shared, and what little they know has already been posted so there'd be no point.

 

[gold163]

I think that the people who already post in gameplay forums already know what they're looking for and what they should post, but the reason why others usually don't is because they don't really know what goes on in gameplay forums. I don't think it's really a matter of new players being intimidated per se, just that they don't really see the point. Sure, they can post training diaries but other than that from their point of view there's little they can contribute. I don't know what exactly you expect people to post in gameplay forums that isn't already being discussed.

 

[guitalex2007]

Skullheart was made to be an escape from the elitism (and horrible, terrible new forum software) of SRK. It was made to be for the community, by the community. A place where a casual could post and get in touch with casuals, and where the hardcore can find what they need to get better, all with an open, WELCOMING environment.

The OT forum acts as a funnel for the unrelated topics, but is also a way to connect between members of the community. IT'S A GOOD THING.

I hate that it's not there anymore. I know that there is currently no way to filter the off topic threads from recent threads. But to be honest, that's a minor grievance compared to the benefits to the unity of our community the OT subforum brings.

 

[PaperBag_Sniper]

Just wanted to pop in here since the original announcement thread got locked to say something. I am a pretty patient person when it comes to online communities. I get that it takes time for changes to roll out and I'm more than willing to be reasonable in the face of sudden and drastic changes. I would hope that would be apparent from my general conduct around here.

I was just in the Robo-Fortune thread and someone asked if it was ok to discuss gameplay in her thread. Since I was under the impression that the only place with an embargo on gameplay speculation was the non-gameplay discussion sub-forum. Following the advice from the announcement thread said I checked the gameplay sub-forum rules and didn't see any changes and wasn't aware that global rules had been added a few days ago. I told them it was ok to talk it out. Another poster pointed me in the direction of the new general forum rules, specifically the global rule about no speculation or discussion of future characters across all forums.

I guess it makes sense from a certain point of view to restrict speculation on characters that may never be anything more than a text description. I can kind of see the point of wanting to avoid coloring people's perceptions about what a character will ultimately come out to be. And sure, in the Eliza thread people were all over the place trying to figure out how she would play and the same is true for Beowulf. But this "no speculation of any kind rule" is horseshit and I am honestly tired of trying to give the mods the benefit of the doubt. But I guess that Lab Zero is also going through some changes since I get the impression that they are shifting to a more closed development process and are focusing more on feedback from the retail and beta versions of the game, and less on promoting art streams and such. If that is indeed the case, maybe the new rules are echoing that change.

However, the changes that have occurred here are a literal example of "Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face." Removing OT didn't fix anything. Removing speculation probably won't fix anything. What is the specific problem that the Mods are trying to fix and why would you all roll out these changes without seemingly trying to correct the problem systematically first? Instead the current changes are the equivalent of just dropping a nuke on the forum and hoping that a new ideal community will rise from the ashes.

I hope that the powers at be can rectify the problems they felt were plaguing the forum because how things have been handled in the past week do not fill me with hope for the future of this forum as a whole. It's been a pleasure, and I guess this is my own way of saying goodbye for the foreseeable future. I'll be lurking around from time to time.

 

[Vadsamoht]

I've been deliberately not interfering with this drama and I won't state my views nor what has gone on in the mod section, but I do want to say as a relatively impartial observer that things are moving forward in the mod section discussion so I can genuinely reassure those of you with objections that you'll know the outcomes of that soon. I don't want to pre-empt either side of the discussion, so that's all I feel comfortable saying - just wanted to let you all know that as frustrating as this wait is, it will end before too much longer.

 

[IsaVulpes]

I'm trying to say that some newbies don't go to the gameplay forums and post a whole lot because they feel that they have little to contribute. I mean, what would be the point of posting a newbie combo in X combo thread when there's an optimized combo that's better in practically every way other than skill requirements? A newbie would feel intimidated in that instance because whatever work they put into making the combo turned out to be pretty much meaningless.

They don't mean they would get mocked, it's that they (and me) have nothing really worthwhile to contribute combo wise, or don't know the balance of the game in and out. They're trying to not be scrubs by saying "such and such is op because I got booty blasted online." They're differing to experienced players.

Did you read my post on the last page, I wonder..

You don't need to contribute combos. In fact, combos are probably the most worthless thing to contribute.

Ask questions on how to beat things, do things and ask whether they might be good, figure something -anything!- out and post it, etc

Eg: You have problems in the Parasoul mirror, when the opponent just does H.Tearshot on repeat
You record the training dummy doing it and try to figure out an answer by just pushing random buttons
- You learn that cMK goes under Tearshot, which is a neat start. However, that doesn't really help you approach.
So seeing how you can use normals to manipulate your hurtbox in a way that it dodges attacks, you try around more.
- A common problem with advancing vs Tearshot as Parasoul is that you are SO FUCKING TALL that you pretty much can't jump over them, as they will shoot your legs
But wait, didn't you just learn something? Push buttons while in the Air!
You notice that Parasoul moves her legs upwards during all of jLK, jHP, jHK;
Test it out and DAMN RIGHT, Parasoul can dashjump over Tearshots easily when pushing any of these buttons.
But which one is the best?
.. You are not sure. Maybe jLK, because it is the fastest? Or maybe jHP, because it has the best hitbox and allows you to combo out of the easiest? Or maybe jHK, because it seems to go the furthest?

So now you open a Thread in the Parasoul subforum,
"Hello Guys, I had problems in the mirror cus Tearshots keep bashing my face in, so I tried around some in training mode. I found somethings, but still have questions. I am not sure how much of this is common knowledge, but here we go: "1.cMK allows you to go under Tearshots, but it didn't seem too useful since you don't get to advance. Am I missing something? 2.You can make jumping over tearshots easier by pressing jLK/jHP/jHK, as they move your legs upwards, so Shots just pass under you. Both of these look interesting to me; the second one I have actually tried in matches and it seems to work! I hope I helped someone with this or gave them some ideas.. but now for my question: Which of the three air buttons do you think is the best, and why?"

BAM you just shared two pieces of tech and asked a really good question and sparked discussion and what not.
And you do this at a level where you have problems against Parasoul just doing Tearshots from fullscreen (note: This is not a high level).
And all it took was: Playing a game and noticing a problem, the record option in training mode, and pushing some buttons for one minute.

-----

It's not hard, anyone can do it. Anyone can have ideas, anyone can stumble upon things by accident.
In fact, I used to find more sick unseeable resets when I had larger execution problems and did something wrong and then went "WOW wait was that a crossup?" than I do now.

Watch streams by people, look who got hit and why, write it down, post your Analysis in the Video Section, proclaiming yourself a beginner who tried his best and would love a second opinion on what went on during the game.
Someone will look, correct some things, nod to some others, clear up a misconception, give you some insight into his thinking process. Maybe you go through a Taluda match and the Elda himself will come down and talk about things! This would be a great help to EVERYONE ON THE FORUMS.

Or, to give another Super Metroid example: I watch the top runners stream from time to time.
In the 100% category, I noticed people skip a missile pack that is seemingly on the way. I asked why: Because one visits the same area later again, and it saves half a second to collect it at that point (as one has better movement options then). Ask a question, connect with people, learn something. Good start!
While watching one of aforementioned top runners, I noticed that he repeatedly had to stop for farming sessions on the way to a boss, because he uses a lot of Missiles for said boss, and needs pretty decent drop luck to have the Missile count he wants.
- So I go: "Hey, I know that getting [that missile pack from the start] at a later date makes collecting it half a second faster, but wouldn't it be worth doing so anyway, as you would have to do one less farming session? Those seem to take longer than half a second?"
- And the top runner went: ".. .. .. You know what, that's a pretty decent point. I will try it out next run."
A few days later, the 100% route had changed slightly: People now get said missile pack at the start.
To this date, I have not done a single 100% run (and as such, would not exactly be good at it, if I tried), yet was able to change the route (directly helping out the 2nd best player of the game).
Because I looked at what people do, and noticed something that didn't seem correct to me, and asked. And happened to be right.

I too find the skullplayers here helpful, but in streams I noticed what Vulpes points:

<Quote of people hiding tech>

I doubt this people will ever have a change of character and suddently help.

This is irrelevant for beginners though. My complaint was directed at it being difficult to go from "advanced" to "expert", because too many people keep their 'advanced' tech hidden / stick to themselves / whatever
Beginners get plenty help in any place (if alone because the list of people who can potentially provide advice is much, much larger), as long as they ask.

I'm not sure if I'm included in here

Are you really, really sure that you don't know whether you are included

Because you are kinda definitely not..

I don't know what else can be done?

That's why I wrote "Won't happen, though" :^)

You can't really do anything about people not wanting to post.
Some people don't have the time, others just don't like forums, some people are dicks who don't want to share anything, others are plain lazy, etc.

If you want to make the Gameplay section better, then pretty much the only options I can think of atm are
1) Digging through the forums, checking where quality content happens and why, then trying to make said content more visible and encouraging more of the same. A notable example would be @mcpeanuts "Game Analysis" posts - which are nice, but stuck in a subforum people don't look at, in a thread people don't open. This is amazing! .. and sits on 86 views at the time of posting.
2) Convincing the people who think "I don't have anything to contribute" that they in fact do. As mentioned twice now, there is a "gigantic" mass of people who could contribute, and would, but don't, because they are scared / feel they have nothing to say / whatever. That's not good. Dunno how to try and fix this beyond what I did in this and the previous post.
3) Offering an incentive for people who are 'just too lazy' to do things. Like, I forgot to update the Para Teambuild thread for half a year, and I wanted to update the Para Combo thread shortly after creating it and never did, and have like two guides more or less in the making, but I kinda feel too lazy. This goes from "Show people that this stuff is actually read" (I don't want to sit hours on a guide and four people look at it), over "Add a Forum Banner for 'User of the Year' where at the end of a year people vote on who was the 'most useful poster'", to contests with Steam Codes from HumbleBundle leftover games for people who write guides, or whatever. Something anything. Dunno what would actually work.

Maybe 4) would be running to the Top Players, engaging in discussion with them on whether its possible for them to talk about some things (eg a predetermined topic which they have a week to prepare, or somesuch - eg a long while back there was a "Podcast" by Negus and Worldjem and Yaya maybe and Khaos I think and Keninblack was there I think and stuff, where they created a Matchup chart by talking with each other and bringing forth arguments and listening to the stream chat a bit etc. I'm sure something like that could be done on the forum as well), or just to plead them to take the forums a bit more serious and at least attempt some gameplay talk.

Not everyone will be able to do it (or interested in it), but maybe you can find some. Like, maybe Sonicfox can't go beyond "I shoot you" and "Let's be furry bruddas", but Sage posts things in Streamchats, and talks about SG when he's streaming, and wrote an essay on TWITTER, and clearly has an interest in helping people as seen by his Dekillschool thing..
.. but barely says anything of substance on SH. How many of the mods who voted for "Let's remove the OT to get more gameplay talk! There is no other way!" sent a PM to Sage, asking him why he doesn't engage in discussion, what he dislikes about SH, what they should change for him to like it better, and/or asked him to partake in some kind of something (eg a 'forum interview' where he talks about his opinion on the current state of the game, where it should go, what the community is lacking, how he sees the tournament future, ..)? I would bet on the amount being 0.