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Squigly Match-Up Thread

alexpi said:
My problem with mixing up Painwheel is that pretty much all your air resets are out the window. Sometimes I'm convinced that Thresher's hitbox is the entire screen.
I'm pretty sure j.lk delay crossup j.mk still works.

Squigly has stronger ground mixups than air vortex imo. I think you would be missing out on a large portion of Squigly's strong points if you were primarily using her air setups!

If you are struggling with PW definitely check out Yaya vs Domo at NWM7. Yaya has a better handle on this matchup than anyone else. It's also a good reminder of how good Mortis is!

Against PW I just go ham with overheads and j.lp divekick shenanigans. In the corner I like to do launch j.mk > j.hp s.lp low/thow/high. I think she can still mash out of it but it does not look like something you can mash out of.
 
Because fast flying Painwheel is actually kinda just really scary?

I don't think PW has very many negative matchups at all any more.
 
Bit_Strife said:
Unless you guys are playing Elda exclusively, I don't get how you see PW as a losing match up.

Things change when j.lk starts to get armor cancelled into super
 
Dolfinh said:
I can tell you right now that if this is how you are going to work squigly neutral you will NEVER breach high level play with her. I leaned on invincible assists so hard for the first year and a half of me playing the game (and my playstyle still leans on them too much now) and good players will punish you for it. Squigly does have some great buttons both in the air and on the ground; you just have to break the fear of using them and be more confident in the decisions you make in neutral.

I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm saying this because you will hold yourself back so much by leaning on your invincible assists for a character's neutral. Reading the rest of your posts is evidence of this; you cite having beat extend as the only way to catch Painwheel in neutral and stop her from jumping in, and I promise you this is not true.

.

For the record I have not used an invincible assist in a year, I still don't use them for... reasons I guess, I don't find any of the characters with Invincible assists appealing or fun to play. I don't use dp assists still so thats the main reason why I feel Squigly is so hopeles in neutral. With all my time with Squigly since the game's steam launch I've grown a very defeatist attitude with Squigly's neutral. It feels like against her, especially with out an anti-air assist Squigly is a sitting duck. Even If I know Double is going to jump at me or filia is gonna spam iad j.hp or val is going to stay away or jump from weird angles, likewise with painwheel. It feels like there is little I can do to defend myself from their attacks. A dp assist seems like the only threat that could discourage the opponent from jumping in on you.

I don't even want to put a positive quantifier on Squigly's normals at this point but every time I press a button there's this feeling in my gut that I've made a mistake and when ever something works out I'm surprised and wondering why it even worked. Most of the time i just feel lucky.

But please if you have any advice I'd like to know.
 
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you literally have the best air-to-air normal in the game
 
akindhobo said:
For the record I have not used an invincible assist in a year, I still don't use them for... reasons I guess, I don't find any of the characters with Invincible assists appealing or fun to play. I don't use dp assists still so thats the main reason why I feel Squigly is so hopeles in neutral. With all my time with Squigly since the game's steam launch I've grown a very defeatist attitude with Squigly's neutral. It feels like against her, especially with out an anti-air assist Squigly is a sitting duck. Even If I know Double is going to jump at me or filia is gonna spam iad j.hp or val is going to stay away or jump from weird angles, likewise with painwheel. It feels like there is little I can do to defend myself from their attacks. A dp assist seems like the only threat that could discourage the opponent from jumping in on you.

I don't even want to put a positive quantifier on Squigly's normals at this point but every time I press a button there's this feeling in my gut that I've made a mistake and when ever something works out I'm surprised and wondering why it even worked. Most of the time i just feel lucky.

But please if you have any advice I'd like to know.
This sounds a ton like a mindset issue to me. You need to be confident in your button choices and go for it! One thing I've learned is to never be afraid to try things outside of tournament; either it works and I learn, or it doesn't work and I still learn. Nothing is on the line outside of tournament except for pride (if you happen to be that kind of person). Experiment as much as you can. As you do, you will become more comfortable with your decisions on what buttons to press.

Confidence in your decisions is part of fighting game fundamentals, I think. What you described kinda reminds me of how I felt when I started playing 3rd Strike and UNIEL. Commit to your choices!

On the subject of anti-airs Yaya was telling me about using Mortis more often as an anti air. Mess around with that!
 
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Mike_Z said:
Never trust when character mains say this.
I think Squigly loses to most characters.
 
alexpi said:
Yeah, well I think you lose to most characters
Damn, got me
Dreamepitaph said:
@mcpeanuts at one point you think squigs sucks. Why?
There's nothing wrong with the character on paper, just her tools don't match up well with other characters. She doesn't have great buttons to challenge IADs*, there's matchups where j.LK isn't a good option, and she struggles with zoning. Most characters have at least one of those things. Bella's probably okay but I think she at best goes even with everyone else. If you manage to land a clean hit you can put them in the blender and kill their whole team, but any character can do that, that's not special.

*note I dropped this character before she got low profile on c.MP and tremelo, maybe this is ok now?
 
Robo does not have a blender to kill characters. Anyway having control on the opponents movements from anywhere on the screen with lvl2 sing is pretty good.
not the be all end all but pretty good.
 
Squigly's charged Hp.Dp is pretty good against Painwheel in particular and other air dashers. It can be made safe(ish) if you have 1 bar too.
 
But you'll be too busy running away!(very interested).
If there was any matchup i'm curious on.... it would have to be a defensive double. I have no idea how to hit the blob at times and for the most dash jump block does the trick. Any pointers?
 
akindhobo said:
.

You don't need DP assists to win. With the exception of beat extend they're kinda overrated imo
If you know double is going to jump at you, you either 1) beat her air to air with your better/faster button or you on reaction SBO/Daisy Pusher her for going for an attack. Idk what squigly does to beat IAD pressure other than timing SBO, but you can low profile moves and take advantage of chicken blocking to get advantage and probably pbgc j.lk. It really depends on what your opponent is actually doing though, so... take it to training mode.

She has the best(imo anyways) grounded pushblock baits and frame traps when she has charge, can center stage opera double snap someone who calls an assist poorly with 2 meters, has a move that air to airs from fullscreen and can be hit confirmed when landed against someone on the ground, can combo into hard knockdown off ANY hit as long as it wasn't off otg etc.

She is a good character.
 
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Concerning iads hobo you use s.lp alot when we played.

I personally use s.mp and let it rock before canceling it. Your best bet tho is pushblocking well and find time to counter with j.lk tho. Trying to aa in this game is a bit rough and if you AA with squigs you might as well buffer into s.hp into a cancel in case it hit
 
I'm getting to the point where I think the best reason to have a DP assist is for alpha counters.
 
On the subject of Squigly stuffing IAD's you can jab out of stuff that isn't filia iad j.hp. People say s.mp is good for this too but I can never get it to work haha.


EDIT: Forgot to mention Filia iad j.hp
 
s.mp is spacing dependent. The reason it's good is because her hitbox moves backwards.
 
So, what I've gathered from this matchup thread so far.

I need to:
> j.lk more on basically the entire cast except Painwheel
 
If you're not doing constant j.lk as squigly, you've either ascended to a higher level of squigly skill or you're not playing her right.
 
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Dolfinh said:
On the subject of anti-airs Yaya was telling me about using Mortis more often as an anti air. Mess around with that!
It's pretty not-that-great against most dashjumps and IADs, and is susceptible to getting crossed up. The hitbox is just too low to work a lot of the time.
 
alexpi said:
If you're not doing constant j.lk as squigly, you've either ascended to a higher level of squigly skill or you're not playing her right.

Knowing me, it's prolly the latter.
 
Luweewu said:
It's pretty not-that-great against most dashjumps and IADs, and is susceptible to getting crossed up. The hitbox is just too low to work a lot of the time.
Dunno, he uses it pretty effectively in his play against Domo at NWM. I know Guitalex used it some at EVO as well, I think it may be unexplored.

I wouldn't use it against IAD's though.
 
Mike_Z said:
Try s.HK vs some IADs...?
i just spent a few hours trying to work it out

it's too slow to use on reaction (at least against filia). In my super-competent manipulation of training mode, i tried using to catch IADs is through a PBGC, and while it will work against some IAD attempts after a ground blockstring, it also won't beat a lot of IAD-pushblock-IAD strings (Filia's jHK > anything, Fortunes jHP > anything, Val's jHP > jLP/K, Eliza's j.anything > jLK

based on this, i'm thinking it's better against IAD attempts in neutral at slight distance, which is awkward, or after pushblocking ground things only
 
Mike_Z said:
Try s.HK vs some IADs...?

Tried doing this in training mode against Filia's j.HP. It doesn't seem consistent at all. Sometimes the first ~10 startup frames of s.HK will low-profile but if you're slightly too early there's a window of 4-5 frames where she's standing up and no longer going under the IAD but the s.HK still isn't active yet and you get counterhit and die.

and if Filia does IAD j.MP you can't low-profile under it at all and you get counterhit 100% of the time unless you hit s.HK hella early in which case it trades but at the point you're just guessing if she's going to jump in or not.

The most consistent anti-IAD button I've found with Squigly is cr.MP. Its pretty safe to whiff (unlike s.HK) and checks people trying to move forward on the ground too. It beats Most IADs with the exception of against Valentine and Fortune. Val's j.HP is too disjoint and Fortune's j.HP gets too close to the floor. You can buffer the cr.MP into cr.HP and get a full combo so good reward when it works.

The other option I've found that works well is j.MP > j.HP. Its more consistent but you push yourself towards the corner and can't convert it into damage except maybe with some specific assists.
 
Adwins said:
c.mp works against some brain dead eliza air dash block strings if you push block, I've used it in matches a few times but my reactions are poop so im not too confident in its consistency

Jason said:
The other option I've found that works well is j.MP > j.HP. Its more consistent but you push yourself towards the corner and can't convert it into damage except maybe with some specific assists.

You can use beat extend to convert off this, but then why would you risk pressing buttons when you can just block and call beat extend anyway?

You can use s.lp if filia has you in a block string and wants to go for a iad j.lk overhead, though you will obviously get counter hit if she throws or does a grounded attack.

You can use s.mp/c.mp to aa some iad attacks from filia and fortune from some mid rangeish ranges though you can't if they iad and call assists at the same time.

The only thing I've found a use for s.hk as an anti air and I don't even know if its really that good is when fukua wants to beat your air attacks with her j.lp you can whiff punish it with s.hk, thought its the same you can't do it if she does j.lp with an assist.
 
Just finished a set with a player, where we played my solo Squigly vs his solo Valentine. I got mopped 10-0, and I feel like I didn't have any way to really beat him. Why? At any point he whiffed s.hp, s.mk, c.hp, c.mp, etc, I tried to punish him for it with SBO, where he, in turn, react super'd with EKG, while I feel like, "sure, reaction supers are totally ok. They're a part of the game"; however, when someone whiffs a move and are in the recovery frames, there shouldn't be an opportunity for you to reaction super when you you're in recovery frames, which aren't super cancellable (at least, as far as I know). Combine this with the fact that that squigly's anti-airs are almost impossible to successfully punish val's typical jump ins *j.hp, H bypass, M bypass j.lk j.mp*(lvl 2 sing, Daisy is viable after val double jumps), I feel like the matchup is unforgiving. Am I totally forgetting a mechanic Squigly has to counteract Val's pressure? I'm at a loss for my girl Squigs
 
cherry blossoms said:
Just finished a set with a player, where we played my solo Squigly vs his solo Valentine. I got mopped 10-0, and I feel like I didn't have any way to really beat him. Why? At any point he whiffed s.hp, s.mk, c.hp, c.mp, etc, I tried to punish him for it with SBO, where he, in turn, react super'd with EKG, while I feel like, "sure, reaction supers are totally ok. They're a part of the game"; however, when someone whiffs a move and are in the recovery frames, there shouldn't be an opportunity for you to reaction super when you you're in recovery frames, which aren't super cancellable (at least, as far as I know). Combine this with the fact that that squigly's anti-airs are almost impossible to successfully punish val's typical jump ins *j.hp, H bypass, M bypass j.lk j.mp*(lvl 2 sing, Daisy is viable after val double jumps), I feel like the matchup is unforgiving. Am I totally forgetting a mechanic Squigly has to counteract Val's pressure? I'm at a loss for my girl Squigs
Did you try doing level 2 sing xx Opera to whiff punish? Raw Opera is a free punish for most characters.

I don't know exactly what frames Val can super cancel and can't, I'd have to check the in game frame data. I will say though that the recovery frames of most moves for most characters are super cancellable.

I've never really had that much trouble anti airing Valentine. Max range j.HP you probably can't anti air, but any of her other buttons lose pretty hard to Squigly j.LK. Bypass you don't have to anti air because it's unsafe on block and whiff.
 
cherry blossoms said:
Val Match

I also struggle with this match and think its one of her worst (every character in the game is a potentially bad match up for squigly but thats another discussion). Yes every character can cancel their whiffed normals into super. Since Squigly's sbo has no hitstop every one can counter super and there are only a few characters that you can actually whiff punish standing normals with sbo. Val is not one of them. The only thing you can whiff punish is a whiffed grab because you can't cancel that into super.

Also you can't anti air val with sbo because she can counter super with scalpels.

The thing about this match is that Val never really has to go in and can whiff punish any of your normals with her disjointed normals or with bypass. The way i feel to approach this match up is that you have to read when val is trying to go in on you and punish her with j.lk or something. You have to be careful of your distances because if you miss you will get punished. Other wise stay away and don't go in too hard if Val is being slippery by jumping out of your reach. If you over extend you will get punished.

If she is super jumping around you kinda want to match her air height. If she is trying to get close try not to stay on the ground and eat j.hp cross ups.

Oh this is very useful if Val tries to bypass cross up into scaples you to get "free pressure" you can't punish her (she has enough time to block and reaction tech grab) but you can counter super her scalpels with sbo for free. (Maybe even on block bypass? I haven't checked don't push block it) Don't try to block the bypass anyway.

For reference the few characters you can whiff punish ground normals with non sing sbo are
Parasoul with out lv3: this is free
Filia: also free but can dhc to someone else
fukua: at certain distances you have enough time to block bff and still get the punish level 3 will get you though
painwheel: if she doesn't have level 3, can't punish air normals, well you can at certain distances but risky
fortune: can't super, can't fiber but can level 3 out of it.
and robofortune: i think, has nothing to get out?
 
I don't find the Val match particularly onerous, it's just really slow. It's hard to build a charge without getting a hit first, but you can just hop back and forth waiting to j.lk and once you're in, val's only reversal is EKG.
 
Fuzzy and I agreed Val is pretty hard to catch.

That said @alexpi charges are pretty easy to get if they're playing super keep away or vertical in neutral. Just pay attention to their height for bypass and angles of dead cross. To be honest it's hard for me to give specific input in this matchup; I just sort of play it. I definitely do a lot of j.lk and j.hp, and even though val has crazy god mobility you CAN hit her with these normals and confirm at any height with j.lk thanks to her high double jump and HK divekick confirms. I think you have a lot more control in neutral once you have a charge.

Though tbh besides Cloudking I can't say I really have much high level val experience :/
 
IsaVulpes said:
All frames of every characters every normal are super cancellable
Ok there is Band jHK, but I think that's it?
Baseline - being able to cancel into Super on whiff is the rule, not the exception.

Maybe you should hook up with this guy http://skullgirls.com/forums/index....tients-match-up-thread.248/page-2#post-298893 and exchange opinions
thanks for the insight. I feel like I have to approach this matchup differently, especially when I'm running solo without a real way to anti-air (considering seria dp, but giving up a charge in the val matchup makes me uncomfortable; maybe I should just accept playing chargeless in the matchup?). Overall, I feel like I came into the set with a bad mindset. I tried to flowchart Val and I couldn't adapt. I definetely have to find an answer to val's jumpback j.hk and finding a way to block Air Bypass when I block it in the air.
 
cherry blossoms said:
thanks for the insight. I feel like I have to approach this matchup differently, especially when I'm running solo without a real way to anti-air (considering seria dp, but giving up a charge in the val matchup makes me uncomfortable; maybe I should just accept playing chargeless in the matchup?). Overall, I feel like I came into the set with a bad mindset. I tried to flowchart Val and I couldn't adapt. I definetely have to find an answer to val's jumpback j.hk and finding a way to block Air Bypass when I block it in the air.

Its possible to anti-air DP xx SBO and gain another stance charge AND combo off of the SBO, but it really depends on how the SBO decides to juggle them.

Overall I'd say Seria DP is her best anti-air option against Val since SBO will lose or trade with air Scalpels.
 
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Jason said:
Its possible to anti-air DP xx SBO and gain another stance charge AND combo off of the SBO, but it really depends on how the SBO decides to juggle them.

Overall I'd say Seria DP is her best anti-air option against Val since SBO will lose or trade with air Scalpels.
I feel like Val's jump angles are a bit too awkward for that to be consistent. Maybe my jump in reads are just bad.
 
akindhobo said:
I feel like Val's jump angles are a bit too awkward for that to be consistent. Maybe my jump in reads are just bad.
No, they are awkward, but it's pretty obvious when it should work, at least in my opinion. main thing is knowing when it will. Also, I need to be more confident in my lvl 2 sing, daisy pusher confirms on character jump-ins.
 
Hello! I'm new here to the forums and SG in general. Any tips on the Beowulf matchup? It's a really frustrating MU. I seem to have no options when Beowulf is just spamming air grabs and his chair has weird block frames... I do the Trials 1 combo pretty well but it doesn't to seem to do much damage. I'm not the best in the game not even close. It just seems when I lose to my friend's Beowulf, I'm losing to Beowulf and his crazy grabs and super armor and not the player. Also I don't want to know the tiers, I've already been in that struggle in various other games. I want to get good with Squigly and I came far from my beginnings. But I face a wall in this MU. Plz halp
 
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