State of Play- Let's Talk Skullgirls

[Cattfish]

A not so thinly-veiled attempt to encourage meaningful discussion away from discord gameplay channels that will get buried in a day, Twitch streams, and fleeting Twitter conversations. Secondly, a place to discuss characters, meta, and other aspects of Skullgirls without cluttering Beta Discussion.

Topics such as: What have you liked seeing in the playerbase as it's evolved in the past few years? Are you enjoying how many tournaments there are these days? Are you enjoying the level of play at these dozens of tournaments? Has there been any sets you've been replaying? What have you noticed people should be labbing in Training Mode more?

What team combination should we be talking about and seeing more of? How do you feel about your character in the state of the meta? How do you feel about the game's updates with new characters since a balance hiatus since 2017? Discussing changes is fine here, but it would be strongly suggested to make a concise post in Beta DIscussion where it's intended to be seen by HVS once you want it to be seen by them.

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Just to start things off, a couple of tangents.

1. I think the Beta thread has had a very interesting discussion on Double. Similarly, I think it's fascinating when, instead of Annie, people discuss Double in proportion to Squigly in their utility roles. Bonanze has a lot of faith in Squigly, and his approach to her function is interesting to read.

2. I'm at peace with where Annie's place is in the game, even if there's a worry of overshadowing. I'm glad there's another glue. I think fundamentally, you'd really have to go out of your way to seriously hurt Annie and create a glaring weakness for her.

3. I haven't figured how you would bridge the gap with certain characters-Double and Fukua both ride the line on over-tweaking with any suggestion you could give them beyond standard proposals (Luger revert, Level 5 buff, Bomber disjoint or Fukua's health regain). I almost wish there was something of a triangle between Annie, Double, and Fukua (As if you could denote stats for Assist strength, DHC damage, DHC utility, Point damage, strength when best enabled).

4. As a Fortune tech junkie, I'm thrilled to see all of the high level Fortune play. I'm hoping that if she does change, that her headless will become fully understood for all of its unparalleled mix and options. There's so much more to the character than what's been shown on tournament, and it's exciting to have the potential of seeing it realized.

 

[Stuff]

Gee I hope this wasn't a positivity thread 'cause I think I'm about to ruin that. (Maybe I misunderstood? Feel free to delete this post if so)

To me it feels like runaway gets weaker and weaker while rushdown in general gets stronger and stronger. I kind of liked pre-figured-out SG where there was a lot more neutral when things weren't as optimal and runaway was in turn more viable but at the moment with SG's optimized state it feels more and more like you have to know damage routes or ridiculous resets to get anywhere these days. I used to like just chiping out and stuff and opting to go back neutral but these days I can't afford to do that because my opponent can actually kill me from any interaction so in opting for neutral I give them more chances to ultimately put me in a blender with little to no hope of getting out even on character death you're just set up into another 50/50 that pretty much determines your fate most of the time. (Which is very Marvel esque so SG is doing a proper job at being that)

It just feels like such a niche strategy that ultimately isn't super rewarding so I've been coming to terms with that by playing and learning more damage output but at least for me this isn't very interesting and from what I can tell just in discussion in general I'm kind of worried that eventually it just won't be worth it at all but I have no idea how to express that since it's only based on feeling but at least for me it's always felt like trillions more in terms of effort for like maybe a 3rd of the reward if that 'cause usually the only way to get a big payoff to runaway is to do what everyone does and cash out, timing out people becomes much harder because you give your opponent nothing but meter and chances which gives them the ability to two touch you or tod you or just take any momentum you might've previously had. (Player issue probably but idk I feel attached to the way I play because it once felt like a fun viable choice and I liked it a lot, again this is a concern out of feelings not facts so please don't mind me I just figured this was more the thread to mention this rather than catch flak over my general thoughts on the game in the beta thread. I know it's easy to say "play another game" but at least for me the reality is that there aren't any games that even allow how I want to play (I've tried a lot of them lol), sg was the only game that had this niche I really liked.)

Another thing I find kind of annoying is fuzzy blocking 'cause it makes throw the best option in a reset but throws are automatically scaled to 50% which means you do less damage on this reset while also building your opponent more meter immediately and having to throw people a million times is not very interesting to me but it seems to work best when you know your opponent knows how to fuzzy block, idk I just start to feel like my pressure is just repetitive and I'm not really learning much about my opponent. The way out of throw scaling to reset ASAP but you end up in the same spot with fuzzy blocking and if you don't have very good cross ups you're in for a long one generally speaking. I feel like I have to completely 100% outplay because fuzzy blocking is almost a given in most resets.

My dumb concerns aside, I really missed offline tournaments, they're the time I think SG is the most fun.

Lastly, I really hope there's a robot that can play PW one day (or she gets buffed enough to be effective with human players) because Painwheel is one of the coolest characters in the game and while I can't play her to the fullest I truly await the day a Painwheel player wins a massive major or something, I'd be elated. PAINWHEEL ON THE SCREEN POGCHAMP

 

[Cattfish]

Gee I hope this wasn't a positivity thread 'cause I think I'm about to ruin that. (Maybe I misunderstood? Feel free to delete this post if so)

I think everyone should be allowed to air their grievances here. I personally welcome your input and perspective on the game.

The game has evolved fast (online tournaments with real money has been a boon) and it's interesting to see how perceptions shift. I definitely can understand your woes of gameplay shift. Being dead off of one mistake is even more apparent now (Penpen v Fuzzy Snugs at CB), and a lot of times, the mistake isn't so much a good reversal as it is just letting the opponent free. Which is a focus on neutral style.

How do you feel about Det Mode encouraging aggressive Robo? I think she's she's got a lot of depth to her gameplan currently. I'll be the first to admit I didn't process minor changes like M Danger and 5HK homing cancel and how it interprets into efficient damage with resets. It shifts the focus away from ending combos with 5HK and playing lame as well (imo).

It's really been since UFGTX with Taluda winning since Painwheel has had a notable victory, huh? I hope PW gets some generous touch-ups too. I think she could really shake things up without too much tweaking outside of basic necessities. That's a character I would invite to shake things up.

 

[Nuuance]

Gee I hope this wasn't a positivity thread 'cause I think I'm about to ruin that. (Maybe I misunderstood? Feel free to delete this post if so)

I think everyone should be allowed to air their grievances here. I personally welcome your input and perspective on the game.

to be absolutely honest i think a great way of continuing this discussion even apart from this thread are anonymous surveys where everyone can say their 2 cents, not have to worry how it comes off to others or overly justify themselves for any particular thing. It'd go directly to devs or whoever they put in charge of reading and it's all on record. If formatted in a clear way, asking good questions, parsing through what is truly wanted shouldnt be too hard. There's a lot of peoiple pretty up there in SG you see all the time that refuse to participate because worry of opinion not mattering or being ridiculed about it. It might seem like all voices speak with how vocal people usually are when they do, but i promise it's not like that. Strongly recommend surveys but asking good questions not just encouraging talk about things people dont like but moreso things people really enjoy and want more of.

Idk what's been said about squigly. Been playing her since beta & ever since. She's great. But still think many tools need QoL & shouldnt be seen as a bad thing. Overall I'm just kind of over-tired with the 'this character is ok dont give them anything' argument & looking at strive/other games, changes have been received great. even anji players finally coming around. But yeah balance isnt half as impactful as i think people imagine it to be & even less actually utilize all tools at the perfect time or punish to truly exploit many of these hypothetical situations. Eliza s.hp/hk 'buff', some of the most pronounced normals in game, which resulted in no noticeable change to her gameplay as a small example.

I've played squigly/Eliza for like 9-10 years. Ive been playing the same game. Some DLC like annie/etc sure but im still playing the same. Eliza changed her mechanic which was nice but in terms of my enjoyment, it feels often like what is the point of improving when there's not really anything new to play with? I've never played peacock & i get the fortune stuff, but I dont want a lot of nerfs for them. bare minimum& if they do happen i like shifting power to other sections of their game to compensate. There's a big fetish with nerfing then leaving it there. I've said this from jump, robo, peacock, fortune play like guilty gear characters largely and their sheer amount of tools/combinations let them be fun. Allowing other characters to be as strong doesnt mean theyre equal or better. you still have to work to win (like robo) & that wont change for other characters. Baiken, ky, jacko, etc are beast now. But has that changed how good the good characters are? no. not at all. same here. Talking about things purely on paper isnt healthy imo. Wont name names but half OG squigly players just stopped playing & it says a lot.

The Annie conversation is a lot to read...I dont think its about how strong she is more than how install just isnt interesting or fun for either side largely & would be better changed since it wasnt supposed to be like how it is now anyways.

Overall I'd just like to have surveys, everyone give their feedback privately & let changes (if thats what it is) happen from there. forums is wonderful, but introduces more blindspots than people think.

 

[Stuff]

Honestly while I'm not the biggest fan of new det mode I think it's a very good interpretation of Robo if you see Robo as a character with dual roles. She has her zoning tools but she can choose to continue zoning or take advantage of your limited mobility due to how Robo sets the stage with her beams, and kinda sorta not exactly rushdown but she baits and switches and it's a legit way to get her thing started.

New det mode feels like an extension of that, you can opt to zone and honestly with AD beams you can double air beam at lower heights which can be very difficult to deal with especially when it can lead to a combo but if you don't want to, you can opt to get a head or something which would let you zone more in this mode at the cost of some health if you want to extend the timer, likewise her faster speed (I think she's faster in install?) would also let her get crazier tech chases. So honestly I think it's a very smart change which matches the character better with its dual abilities. I think you could find the same interpretation in the previous version but it was missing stuff like something to take advantage of the oki or a way to not just die if you opt to stay back or just run out of time unluckily. I also like that Robo has an easier time comboing from her beams since they add tons of hitstun or ground bounce and stuff, it makes the meter use more worth it (whereas in its old state you either did beam to magnet or tag out or tag out in general for the best AC in the game) since it's a lot more useful than the old version. I am still curious what old det mode with the air dash and the timer extension would be like but ultimately I think most people are happy with how it is now.

I also really like the M danger change since it lets Robo do slightly more damage without being too much, she feels more in line with the rest of the cast though honestly at her old amount of damage she was still roughly in the average margin in terms of damage, definitely on the lower side on her own but not too bad.

5HK is nice because before you either had to be a pad player or hitbox player just to achieve a somewhat decent overhead that was able to be comboed from meterlessly and without an assist and I think that helped even out her overheads' useability for people like me that struggle with the idj input. I think if anything a lot of Robo's changes to me just felt like stuff she should have already had while still letting robo do her usual thing and if you don't want to jump cancel it you can still opt to beam after 5HK so you can continue zoning.

Overall I think a lot of these changes have made it so that Robo can more feasibly cash out from without changing (at least by my own interpretation which is a matter opinon) her blueprint as a zoner-y type character that kind of also traps you by using her zoning to make you do things that's gonna get bait and punished while also having the speed to close gaps very quickly which I'm sure some rushdown characters in SG envy. She's a little weird and I can't put her down in just one archetype so I think HVS has the right idea with what they've done.

Also on your point 3 on the initial post, I think Double's level 5 should be more on par with Big Band level 5 and Robo Level 5 because as a level 5 it's honestly really weak in terms of damage at max scaling and I think Band and Robo's level 5 just scales a lot better so it could stand to be either at Robo's level or somewhere between Robo and Big Band

For reference: Double level 5 at max scaling is around 5.7k and Robo is at 6.6k and Band is at 6.8k from their raw supers. (But maybe that's balanced based on the character's damage outputs individually) Double outside of some early DHCs just doesn't have very good scaling at 240ud and I think that's part of why she lags behind, I like that catheads is less crazy, it acts a little more like most safe DHCs but I think it's hard to justify using Double when her DHC worth is currently a bit on the lower side of the glue characters. I personally still think Double is still a very strong character but I think it's kind of sad that her DHC synergy got a bit messed up and slightly powercrept. I know people want L Luger back but I still maintain that it made some match ups less dumb and maybe we can find an inbetween where it's not like it used to be ('cause some distances were egregious imo) but still allowing conversions at some distances (though personally speaking, I think ignoring her weakened DHCs this tool is fine as is)

I'm not entirely sure about Fukua so I don't have much of an opinion there but most of her assist choices are interesting but I also think she lacks very good DHC options outside of like BFFs. Though I like that her Fireball super isn't very safe upclose while also being safe from far away (Unless Double is on the receiving end 'cause she can just car that and peacock can probably lenny it) But in all honesty I'm not sure how I'm supposed to interpret fukua, idk what kind of character she's supposed to be.

Honestly in general it's hard for me to talk balance because SG is a game that's pretty open to interpretation and that's what makes it neat.

That was a lot of writing.

EDIT: I like the idea of having surveys per patch or whatever because I do think some people will keep to themselves and it would help get more word out and it might even be easier to parse than cycling through threads or discord in general. But stuff like that is also quite the undertaking

 

[Nuuance]

Honestly while I'm not the biggest fan of new det mode I think it's a very good interpretation of Robo if you see Robo as a character with dual roles. She has her zoning tools but she can choose to continue zoning or take advantage of your limited mobility due to how Robo sets the stage with her beams, and kinda sorta not exactly rushdown but she baits and switches and it's a legit way to get her thing started.

New det mode feels like an extension of that, you can opt to zone and honestly with AD beams you can double air beam at lower heights which can be very difficult to deal with especially when it can lead to a combo but if you don't want to, you can opt to get a head or something which would let you zone more in this mode at the cost of some health if you want to extend the timer, likewise her faster speed (I think she's faster in install?) would also let her get crazier tech chases. So honestly I think it's a very smart change which matches the character better with its dual abilities. I think you could find the same interpretation in the previous version but it was missing stuff like something to take advantage of the oki or a way to not just die if you opt to stay back or just run out of time unluckily. I also like that Robo has an easier time comboing from her beams since they add tons of hitstun or ground bounce and stuff, it makes the meter use more worth it (whereas in its old state you either did beam to magnet or tag out or tag out in general for the best AC in the game) since it's a lot more useful than the old version. I am still curious what old det mode with the air dash and the timer extension would be like but ultimately I think most people are happy with how it is now.

I also really like the M danger change since it lets Robo do slightly more damage without being too much, she feels more in line with the rest of the cast though honestly at her old amount of damage she was still roughly in the average margin in terms of damage, definitely on the lower side on her own but not too bad.

5HK is nice because before you either had to be a pad player or hitbox player just to achieve a somewhat decent overhead that was in able to be comboed from meterlessly and without an assist and I think that helped even out her overhead's useable for people like me that struggle with the idj input. I think if anything a lot of Robo's changes to me just felt like stuff she should have already had while still letting robo do her usual thing and if you don't want to jump cancel it you can still opt to beam after 5HK so you can continue zoning.

Overall I think a lot of these changes have made it so that Robo can more feasibly cash out from without changing (at least by my own interpretation which is a matter opinon) her blueprint as a zoner-y type character that kind of also traps you by using her zoning to make you do things that's gonna get bait and punished while also having the speed to close gaps very quickly which I'm sure some rushdown characters in SG envy. She's a little weird and I can't put her down in just one archetype so I think HVS has the right idea with what they've done.

Also on your point 3 on the initial post, I think Double's level 5 should be more on par with Big Band level 5 and Robo Level 5 because as a level 5 it's honestly really weak in terms of damage at max scaling and I think Band and Robo's level 5 just scales a lot better so it could stand to be either at Robo's level or somewhere between Robo and Big Band

For reference: Double level 5 at max scaling is around 5.7k and Robo is at 6.6k and Band is at 6.8k from their raw supers. Double outside of some early DHCs just doesn't have very good scaling at 240ud and I think that's part of why she lags behind, I like that catheads is less crazy, it acts a little more like most safe DHCs but I think it's hard to justify using Double when her DHC worth is currently a bit on the lower side of the glue characters. I personally still think Double is still a very strong character but I think it's kind of sad that her DHC synergy got a bit messed up and slightly powercrept. I know people want L Luger back but I still maintain that it made some match ups less dumb and maybe we can find an inbetween where it's not like it used to be ('cause some distances were egregious imo) but still allowing conversions at some distances (though personally speaking, I think ignoring her weakened DHCs this tool is fine as is)

I'm not entirely sure about Fukua so I don't have much of an opinion there but most of her assist choices are interesting but I also think she lacks very good DHC options outside of like BFFs. Though I like that her Fireball super isn't very safe upclose while also being safe from far away (Unless Double is on the receiving end 'cause she can just car that and peacock can probably lenny it) But in all honesty I'm not sure how I'm supposed to interpret fukua, idk what kind of character she's supposed to be.

Honestly in general it's hard for me to talk balance because SG is a game that's pretty open to interpretation and that's what makes it neat.

That was a lot of writing.

EDIT: I like the idea of having surveys per patch or whatever because I do think some people will keep to themselves and it would help get more word out and it might even be easier to parse than cycling through threads or discord in general. But stuff like that is also quite the undertaking

robo is a party bag but i think i like her for the fact there's a clear skill ceiling you can break through if you decide, experimenting with det mode for entirely new play. i really like that. and so far i havent gotten upset at anyone using it so im ok. i hear you on the double/fukua stuff.

on surveys, absolutely. it all is an undertaking but would be more organized than forum posts which shift and change opinions/answer/responses all the time & often circle around. A single place, responses in stone would be cool. Im assuming thats why ASW defaults to surveys & doesnt do forums. Can always present the findings for any conflicting feedback & hopefully come to an agreement/try things out. Whatever's best for the game.