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Team Building Guide + Feedback

KhaosMuffins

KhaosMuffins

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Ms. Fortune Unknown Filia

Skullgirls Team Building Guide​

Feedback Page​

Synergy Rating Spreadsheet​

​

Feedback:​

I want to use this thread to gather feedback and for people to suggest changes. I hardly got any feedback on the old guide, with some things just floating around all the place on Discord, so I decided to make a designated spot for these things instead. There is a Feedback Page in the guide itself to help give an idea of what I'm looking for.

Things I'm really looking for:​

  • Video clips - Preferably Youtube, Discord, or Streamable videos (with a REGISTERED ACCOUNT so they don't disappear after a week). Twitter videos are at the mercy of the user getting locked/banned/deleted so I want to avoid them if possible.
  • Pros/Cons in the character sections - There's probably a bunch of important things to note that I did not list because I don't play these characters. Let me know of these important things.
  • Synergy ratings - The initial synergy tier list discussions died off pretty fast and there was no real cross-character discussions (EX: Some Beowulf players thought he was a better partner than some lists gave him credit for). The synergy spreadsheet was linked at the top, so post here and discuss if there are some ratings you highly disagree with.
  • Duo Assessments - I feel pretty good about what points I used to determine if a duo was good or incomplete, but these were all just my own opinions. If you think I was really unfair or even too forgiving of a duo, let me know.
I'm not really planning on making any changes to the overall structure, whether it's adding or removing sections.

​

Current needs/concerns:​

  • Nothing at the moment, just see above. I'm always willing to add more or make adjustments if I think you have a fair point
  • If you have Youtube playlists for team tech, post 'em
chrome_QwjnQ5PPsS.png
 
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Where are the replies to this?? If you still need some video clips of Annie all i have are some Vods from the Brazilian community that I know of

*CaioLugon vs PME with Annie + Bella:
*Kumite CaioLugon:
Mwisk (Val/Filia/Annie)
Vineko (Peacock/Parasoul/Annie)

Idk if this really helps but i sure hope it does
 
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Annie's page and her corresponding partner section on the other character's pages is now complete. Feel free to drop tech or feedback here, as I'm sure there's a lot of things I've missed.

sites.google.com

Skullgirls Team Building Guide - Annie

(Click image to go to this character's wiki page)
sites.google.com sites.google.com
 
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Annie pw shell just murders people but it needs a neutral assist behind them

two dmg engines + easy tag combos from Annie to pw + safe dhc for Annie mash



5hp tag to pw anywhere but corner is very strong

I think with band behind them it's a top tier team, much harder to justify pw without band on the team but Annie wheel + double or fukua or Eliza or para are all strong imo
 
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In your section about evaluating a player's team you ask if a team has 2+ characters who share a bad match-up, and if so, how players want to address it. I think it's a great point, but since I'm getting back into this game for the first time since 2014, I have no idea what characters do well against who.

Is there a match-up chart / sheet that I could reference anywhere? Or is that too complicated to summarize?
 
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Triviality said:
This chart is fascinating! Does the Brazilian community have its opinions on who is like, Top 2 and Bottom 2? I'm curious how it compares with NA

Asking cause of that kinda negative peacock matchup spread
We've been meaning to re-do it actually, annie was still in beta then so it was a pretty long time ago. But I can tell you the consensus currently is definitely that peacock is top 1.
 
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Is this a good thread to ask for team building advice / criticism / tech or should I make a new thread for that?
 
Kankato said:
Is this a good thread to ask for team building advice / criticism / tech or should I make a new thread for that?
I'd say it's better to make a new thread for that.
 
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Would you be okay if I made a "Team Building General" thread and included your Guide/ spreadsheet as a resource in the OP?
 
Kankato said:
Would you be okay if I made a "Team Building General" thread and included your Guide/ spreadsheet as a resource in the OP?
Yeah, I'm cool with that.
 
Umbrella's section is being worked on now with some help from others, and I would greatly appreciate it if y'all Umbrella Urbans could share some info or tech in this thread to help make writing the sections much easier.

The character section template below hopefully explains what I'm looking for. How does [character] benefit from having Umbrella assist them, and vice-versa? Interesting tech videos - preferably Youtube or Streamable videos and not Twitter videos - are also appreciated.

msedge_GWWP0VElDT.png
 
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Umbrella's sections are done.
sites.google.com

Skullgirls Team Building Guide - Umbrella

(Click image to go to this character's wiki page)
sites.google.com sites.google.com

Some parts admittedly feel pretty barebone to me, and it does not help that she's a new, yet relatively unpopular character so it's been difficult to find discussion on Discord, along with her Skullheart threads being non-existent. So for talking about Umbrella as a partner, I could only largely only find "Use Cliffhanger, Salt Grinder if you're a resource character." If you have good things to say about any of her other assists such as Cutie Ptooie or Wishmaker that make them seem appealing enough to pick over Cliffhanger/Salt Grinder, PLEASE tell me about it, talk about it with others, etc. For Wishmaker especially, is the mix it provides really good enough to make up for the neutral/damage of other assists, and is the mix really that much better than anything the character can already do?
 
Hello, I'll mention that you can DHC into both Robo Magnet by doing Rush > 236MPHP > Magnet DHC and Band's SSJ in the corner by doing Rush > Reflector > SSJ.

As for assists, Hungern Rush is superb except for the fact it doesn't have a hitbox. It's the middle point between 6HP and Salt Grinder in terms of resource assist duration and ease to combo into. In neutral and pressure it's still a DP and a hitgrab which is amazing but its hitbox is really small so it has a tendency to whiff. In the corner, it gives Robo either 2 heads or access to headloops, and it's stellar. Here they are.

Despite its problems, it still remains super strong as a combo assist and it's super super hard to deal with for some characters, like Eliza, Bella, Band and Beo.

One other fun thing, if it lands when you're playing a fast character like Robo, you can pick off and combo from basically anywhere.

Lastly, Annie can call Rush, Arm and combo afterwards. Idk if that's great or not but Vineko hit me with it the other day.

I also know you can do Reflector into SSJ midscreen and it could combo but I don't remember the exact setup, I'll test it later today.

Also Beat Extend isn't bolded in the Big Band part.
 
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Just labbed this Umbrella > Big Band midscreen DHC, don't think I've ever seen someone do it before, but it's probably not undiscovered. I think it's important enough to mention since this makes the duo really really flexible with their rotation.

There's also this, which while it isn't as big a deal since it needs correct spacing (and you can always just Reflector after the 3rd hit), it still looks cool at least.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
If you have good things to say about any of her other assists such as Cutie Ptooie or Wishmaker that make them seem appealing enough to pick over Cliffhanger/Salt Grinder, PLEASE tell me about it
I had a talk with Hyggend earlier today about Cutie Ptooie, since I've been running with it for quite a while, so here's my two cents. It covers roughly the same arch 6HP does, but it takes a long while to cover the same space, while 6HP fills the screen with hitboxes in little time. It's also worth noting that L bubble is a lot safer for umbrella herself, due to the very small hurtbox and short recovery. I treat it much like an L George assist, and if the opponent doesn't keep an eye on it for the next few seconds it's an easy way out of a combo.
I find it to be an incredible fit for Parasoul because it covers her deadzone for a long time with one assist call.
 
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Heyo, Magemoe and I noticed something.

H North Knuckle doesn't enable the 4-way reset, H Crescent Cut does.
unknown(18).png
 
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Also, uploaded the DHCs from Band's section to Youtube (wanna upload full combos but I'm kinda messing them up rn lmao)

Reflector > SSJ

SSJ > Slurp

UTW > SSJ

And onto Fortune, is this good? I know people play 5HK sometimes so if it's not a meme assist it's pretty good i think lol
It also sets up for 6HP.
 
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Heyo, gonna upload this and a low version to Youtube later, but Parasoul's H Pillar gives Umbrella access to meterless two touches.

I'm still testing what I can do with L Shot in terms of combos and resets, since it's a bit wonky because of the side switch and tear explosion, but I'll see if I can get it to be meterless.
 
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I think this is it. I've done it. Umbrella can 2 touch meterlessly with almost any assist in the game (L Shot). (if goku is too loud i can rerecord it)

Here's the low option (1 bar, don't think 0 bar is possible.)

High route Napalm Pillar.

Low route Napalm Pillar.

also fuck it here's a meterless two touch with H BEAM.

I don't think we need to mention an assist gives Umbrella meterless two touches anymore lmao.

(If any of the combos waste UD that's because I did the reset too slowly, and if they don't use the corner correctly that's because all these combos are MIDSCREEN ROUTES)
 
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With regard to Umbrella and Big band Synergy,
Wish maker assist still exists for the two. If Umb gets to overstuffed and tags into band, he gets an incredibly ignorant lingering hitgrab assist. Though it isn't as strong as it used to be, it still adds to the synergy between the two.
 
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Probably rediscovering something old here, but you can tag from Robo's mine into Umbrella to keep the combo going. Neat!

Just tested, works on Band, although it's super hard against him.
 
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6HP gives Robo a head.
Okay so it's just better to call assist, do 1 or 2 hits of 5HP (none, preferably) and cancel into M Beam.

I've also put every way I know of currently to tag in and out of Umbrella in the wiki's Team Building section.
6HP also gives a cute little left/right. Rn I've only tested it with Robo 2HP, Squig 5HK and Eliza 2HP. To choose a side you just need to walk under and you can jump normal for a faster reset, too. Needs a bit of timing.

Also, I've noticed that on Robo's page, some assists say they give 3 head summons in a combo, while what they mean is that you get 2 head summons and a third one if you do 5hk 2hk magnet. Meanwhile, A Train and Rush both say they give 2 head summons. I think that it'd be best to say they all give 2 head summons, since doing 5hk 2hk magnet ends the combo and robo can do that without using assists.
 
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Carrying this over from my Skullgirls Discord post somewhat, but to address some critiques concerning the team synergy ratings/color-codings....

So my reasoning for having the synergy tierings and color-coding in the first place were:
  • People's first question when asking about a team combination is often, "Is this team good?" which sometimes gets answered with "Play what you want."
    • For some people, playing a team that flows well together is fun, while playing a more "jank" team is not fun. For others, maybe they want to play the "bad" combinations to experiment or prove others wrong. It's all valid.
    • If I went looking for a team guide in the first place, then playing what's good/not bad is probably a part of "playing what (I) want," otherwise I would've already decided on my team and maybe only use the guide to find combos/setups/etc.
    • "But if you've already decided who you're going to play, just look for what assists are good, find a nice team order, and ignore everything else...." is in the "How to use this guide" section for this reason.
  • Some characters just straight up do not help out with another's gameplan or are actively detrimental (meter usage, position) and there's no reason to sugarcoat it, better to give readers a heads up to plan around the cons.
  • I trust people enough to think for themselves; if they /really/ want to play a certain shell/team then I trust they have enough conviction to not let some red letters on a guide dissuade them even if they are new to the game. If they ARE dissuaded... then it goes back to the first point.
  • Ultimately, it's all just a quick summary of the pros/cons section and their severity, so poorer combinations are still gonna be talked about negatively whether or not the color-coding is there. Removing it just makes it harder to judge things at a glance (for better and/or worse).

All that said, I'm not really married to the idea of keeping the tierings. Just wanted to explain why they were there in the first place. In fact, it would honestly make things easier for me since the whole synergy tier list discussions when I asked for them... did not last long. And I can't imagine it getting better for the DLC characters, especially since it's harder to rate a DLC shell since the characters are lesser explored. It's an idea I felt more strongly about when making the guide, but it's lessened over time. I do personally still like having the tierings since I like when guides are "honest" instead of hitting me with the "Everything is viable :)", but if people think it's more harmful then helpful then I can remove them completely and just let the pros/cons speak for themselves. At this point, I'm leaning towards removing them myself. If it's something you care about, feedback on this would be appreciated.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
Carrying this over from my Skullheart Discord post somewhat, but to address some critiques concerning the team synergy ratings/color-codings....

So my reasoning for having the synergy tierings and color-coding in the first place were:
  • People's first question when asking about a team combination is often, "Is this team good?" which sometimes gets answered with "Play what you want."
    • For some people, playing a team that flows well together is fun, while playing a more "jank" team is not fun. For others, maybe they want to play the "bad" combinations to experiment or prove others wrong. It's all valid.
    • If I went looking for a team guide in the first place, then playing what's good/not bad is probably a part of "playing what want," otherwise I would've already decided on my team and maybe only use the guide to find combos/setups/etc.
    • "But if you've already decided who you're going to play, just look for what assists are good, find a nice team order, and ignore everything else...." is in the "How to use this guide" section for this reason.
  • Some characters just straight up do not help out with another's gameplan or are actively detrimental (meter usage, position) and there's no reason to sugarcoat it, better to give readers a heads up to plan around the cons.
  • I trust people enough to think for themselves; if they /really/ want to play a certain shell/team then I trust they have enough conviction to not let some red letters on a guide dissuade them even if they are new to the game. If they ARE dissuaded... then it goes back to the first point.
  • Ultimately, it's all just a quick summary of the pros/cons section and their severity, so poorer combinations are still gonna be talked about negatively whether or not the color-coding is there. Removing it just makes it harder to judge things at a glance (for better and/or worse).

All that said, I'm not really married to the idea of keeping the tierings. Just wanted to explain why they were there in the first place. In fact, it would honestly make things easier for me since the whole synergy tier list discussions when I asked for them... did not last long. And I can't imagine it getting better for the DLC characters, especially since it's harder to rate a DLC shell since the characters are lesser explored. It's an idea I felt more strongly about when making the guide, but it's lessened over time. I do personally still like having the tierings since I like when guides are "honest" instead of hitting me with the "Everything is viable :)", but if people think it's more harmful then helpful then I can remove them completely and just let the pros/cons speak for themselves. At this point, I'm leaning towards removing them myself. If it's something you care about, feedback on this would be appreciated.

Hi, carrying this over form discord.

I don't inherently disagree with the ratings, nor do I think they're wrong, outside of ones that might be outdated. I think its accurate to say that some teams work better than other teams. My main issue comes with the prominence it is given, mostly a result of the colour-coding, and to a lesser degree the "Good for/Decent for" ratings. The page is very dense with information, which is a great thing, but I worry its going to result in people schematizing and just scroll through looking for blue/green characters. In my opinion requiring people to do a bit more reading is healthier, they can find a team they like see why it does/doesn't work, and decide if they're willing to accept those flaws.

I've spoken in the past in maincord about how the synergy ratings "lack an audience", I think experienced players will tend to build up a lot of this information intuitively. Meanwhile, a new player who will learn more from the ratings is also far less affected by them. That said, I see your point with some people just wanting to play a team that flows well, regardless of skill level.

Everything else aside, it's a very handy resource, with a ton of information in well indexed and easily searchable format. I got to commend the effort it must have taken to put this together. In my opinion making the synergy ratings less prominent will improve the guide, but that's just me, I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.
 
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So just removing the color-coding alone, but leaving the fav/good/decent/poor (but probably boosting up some of the "Decents", Filia, Peacock, and Eliza I can't imagine anyone seeing as just a "Decent" partner) would be better? To make it less prominent, as you said. Whether or not I end up completely removing the ratings, I'm cool with removing the color-coding at least.
 
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That sounds good to me, up to you what you wanna do with the ratings long-term. Thanks for taking this into consideration!
 
I personally like the ratings themselves as they help for making trios particularly, cause you can just say you want every character in a team to be at least good or whatever.

I do think the colors might overemphasize and am fine with removing them.

They are a simplification, yes, maybe we could consider making a "common partners" section instead?
 
Colors removed, synergy ratings also got unboldened'ed.
Hyggend said:
They are a simplification, yes, maybe we could consider making a "common partners" section instead?
The first guide (this current one is a remake) pretty much only included common partners and I feel like if the synergy ratings are kept, then the "Favorites" more or less answer that question. Also, it'd probably just be "Common Partners: The Glue characters + maybe one other" for everyone.
 
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Has anyone given suggestions for the new Dahlia section yet? This is my first time doing this so tell me what you think!


BIG BAND​

Recommended Assists:​

H Brass Knuckles, Beat Extend, H take the 'A' train

  • Brass Knuckles - Armored Neutral/Anti-Zoning
    • Great at creating space and giving you room to breathe
    • Adds a lot to your damage mid combo
    • Eats projectiles which helps a lot

  • Beat Extend
    • Great option for when you dont want to commit to dahlia's risky dp
    • Lets you build resources Mid combo
    • Gives you 5mp Mixups

  • H take the 'A' train
    • Adds a ton of damage to your normally low damage routes
    • Gives you Strong Conversions off your longer ranged tools like J.MP and J.HK
    • Lets you build Multiple Resources Per Combo, Giving you access to much more safe and ambiguous mix


​

Pros:​

  • Very strong duo with good synergy
  • Dahlia Loves Every Assist Band Provides While Dahlia's Assist can give band some unique Utility. Trap assist can let band convert off his air throw without using OTG
  • Dahlia can Empowered 5hp and combo Band Tag anywhere but Band can only convert off his tag in the corner
  • Band loves Dahlia's DHC's She can convert off of every single one of his supers While Girl's Night Out its the games new strongest safe DHC
  • Dahlia can DHC into big band and have him continue the combo in with a specific set up:
    https://twitter.com/x/status/1647811622511968257

​

Cons:​

  • Both Characters Lose To Robo Fortune and Beam assist pretty badly

Synergy:​

  • Powerful Duo dahlia
  • Any Character can be paired with this shell really it has band in it
 
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Xyned said:
Has anyone given suggestions for the new Dahlia section yet? This is my first time doing this so tell me what you think!
Looks good, that DHC conversion is especially nice to note, thanks for that.
For the Beat Extend section, did you mean 5MP or 2MP mixups? I know of the 2MP ones but not any with 5MP.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Looks good, that DHC conversion is especially nice to note, thanks for that.
For the Beat Extend section, did you mean 5MP or 2MP mixups? I know of the 2MP ones but not any with 5MP.
I meant 2MP lol my bad. But actually on that note on light characters you can 5MP under them and get cross up 2HP
 
I'm not gonna start filling out Marie's page until June or July, but if anyone has any team building tech they'd like to share (for both Marie's team value and also for what benefits she gets from other characters), feel free to drop it in the thread. Anything is greatly appreciated.
 
Dropping a little questionnaire for Marie to help with working on her guide when I get to it. If anyone has any answers to these, please share. It'll make things much smoother for me.

1. How would you describe Marie's role on a team? Can she do something that no/most other characters can't as a partner?

2. What reasons are there to put Marie on point/mid/anchor over other strong points/mids/anchors, if any?

3. What are her good assists, and are any of them particularly good for helping deal with certain character archetypes? (EX: Band Brass against... anyone, but it's /the/ anti-zoning assist)

4. What are the weakest aspects of her game that assists can help with? What are her strongest aspects worth making stronger with assists?

5. What are her favorite assists and why? (Ignore this if it's just Brass/Beat/Beam)

6. Do any characters particularly love any of her assists?

7. How is her meter building, and is she notably weaker without meter/notably more threatening with meter?

8. Are there any characters who enable strong, unique game plans for her? (In the vein of Val/Excellabella, Beo/A'Train)

9. Does Marie enable unique game plans for any other characters?

10. Are there any particularly strong DHCs or tag routes/setups with Marie (either direction)?

11. Are there any characters of note that she pairs poorly with? Do they compete for a position, meter, really poor DHC synergy, etc.?
 
KhaosMuffins said:
Dropping a little questionnaire for Marie to help with working on her guide when I get to it. If anyone has any answers to these, please share. It'll make things much smoother for me.

1. How would you describe Marie's role on a team? Can she do something that no/most other characters can't as a partner?

2. What reasons are there to put Marie on point/mid/anchor over other strong points/mids/anchors, if any?

3. What are her good assists, and are any of them particularly good for helping deal with certain character archetypes? (EX: Band Brass against... anyone, but it's /the/ anti-zoning assist)

4. What are the weakest aspects of her game that assists can help with? What are her strongest aspects worth making stronger with assists?

5. What are her favorite assists and why? (Ignore this if it's just Brass/Beat/Beam)

6. Do any characters particularly love any of her assists?

7. How is her meter building, and is she notably weaker without meter/notably more threatening with meter?

8. Are there any characters who enable strong, unique game plans for her? (In the vein of Val/Excellabella, Beo/A'Train)

9. Does Marie enable unique game plans for any other characters?

10. Are there any particularly strong DHCs or tag routes/setups with Marie (either direction)?

11. Are there any characters of note that she pairs poorly with? Do they compete for a position, meter, really poor DHC synergy, etc.?
hello! I can try to respond to this to the best of my ability, these sre just my opinion so I may be wrong but oh well.

1. For me, I think marie have 2 roles, first one is just play a bit lame, generate meter and do chip damage the best she can. The other is just a tagging her out or dhc out of her so you can kill with another character.

I do feel like Marie isn't all that special, most characters can do what she can do but better or just get more value out of their kit then Marie.

2. I play Marie point and she generate alot of meter by just zoning, playing a bit keep away, and even her combos make a decent amount of meter, using her as mid or anchor could just be using her strong assist.

3. I think it depends on the playstyle you want, but in my eyes I think H haymaker is her best one, it's like a delayed brass that can protect you since it charges up and you have something behind you to help you out of things go sour.

4. I think keeping opponents away from her is her weakest to me, her zoning isn't that strong and she can be locked out when using hilgard or bunny unlike other characters, using a lockdown assists or an assist that can push the opponent back will help give Marie time to get back into "zoning"

to be honest? I'm not that sure lol..I guess her going "up up and away" can help with certain assists that allows her to get breathing room.

5. I Think any DP for Marie can work with her, she loves L pin from painwheel. LOVES H LnL from cerebella, a low assist like dahlia trap or squigly c.HP. anything that can help her mix better or give out more damage is a massive plus for Marie. Even lockdown assist. (I also wanna mention center stage since it deny people from running away and bunny can almost guarantee hit them)

6. Painwheel, squigly can get a free charge, i think the whole cast can be more aggressive with marie assist since it hilgard charges up his punch and have armor.

7. her meter build is really good, personally wouldn't change it. Besides her lvl 3 being super strong and can easily kill, I don't think marie is that much weaker without meter, she generates it quickly just by playing lame, however a lvl 1 hard knockdown is always a plus.

8. I don't think so? Maybe lockdown assist? (Copter or eliza skeleton) so she can set up bunny or hilgard, or go back to neutral but other then that I'm not sure. Sorry.

9. As of right now and in my opinion? No at best you just get her assists H haymaker and call it a day.

10. Yes! There is bunny into her lvl 1 (giant fist) and you can dhc into annie beam, and bunny would keep the combo going. Or marie H twirl to stagger them and tag in pw or even double, peacock, annie(?) Fukua, and Val maybe. You can also do her grab super and double, pw, cerebella, dahlia, and others can pick up from it.(Although cerebella have to be a bit closer to the corner)

11. (Take this with a grain of salt please ^^) I'm not sure since I barely see marie players lol, but maybe Val and umby? I'm mostly thinking of they can't gain anything from marie and marie probably can't gain anything from them.


This is mostly my thoughts base on the question and character herself, again I could be wrong or someone may have a different view on marie which is ok
 
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