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The Annie Patch: Changes and Beta Discussion

Ok so I would like to start with I think Everyone in the game is completely fine as they are and don't need any changes. However, characters are probably going to get changed so here is what I would like to see.

Peacock- I think the primary issue with Peacock is the fact that you are almost always forced to jump at her in order to get in her and establish pressure. To which most Peacock players make a read and stop throwing projectiles to get ready to anti c.lk or they reaction M bang. I think her having an anti air light is fine. It fixed the issue where she felt a little too weak when someone got in. This helps her not feel helpless. If there is something to change, it would be making M bang not create rps situations when blocked. It's minus 9 but the blockstop is weird so most of the time when the opponent blocks it, they still have to guess rather than getting a guaranteed punish. So basically when I jump in on her and she reads with c.lk, that's fine. However when I jump in and she reactions M bang and I basically have to guess for character, it's kinda messed up.

Eliza- A long time ago her manhole used to wallbounce instead of sliding knockdown. This was changed because a lot of players felt it was too inconsistent to combo off of. I 100% believe changing it to a sliding knockdown was just an unnecessary nerf and anyone who complained about the wallbounce version just didn't put the time in to understand how wallbounces works in sg. Also I think it going to sliding knockdown just looks weird XD.

Yea I don't have a big change list. Like I said I think everyone is fine as they are
 
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Adeveis said:
Ok so I would like to start with I think Everyone in the game is completely fine as they are and don't need any changes.

Cosigned. I really don't want to see changes to any of the existing characters apart from maybe very gentle buffs to the undisputed bottom tiers.
 
Below are what I think might be neat tests

Squigly:

Slow juggle always for Orb
! Daisy Pusher DHC window added!
Orb slight damage buff
H Falling Woman - hitgrab (or at least a canned animation so she doesn't get hit
by onscreen objects or assists after the point is hit
L/M Falling Woman consistently hit two characters and not fail to hit the point,
such as off an airthrow
Charge Keep (can use her specials without spending charge)
Non Specific Charges- either charge can be used on either special type, P or K (charge type would still determine what buttons stancels are used with)

Big Band:

decrease pushback on level 5 if it hits an assist
remove lingering super cancel window from beat extend recovery
A Train assist scales like Excellabella, if no decrease in base damage

Eliza:

Sehkmet recall no meter cost
lower sehkmet metercost on point
add recall window during recovery of LOS
shrink lower hitbox on j.hp


Peacock:

Revert m and H bomb startup buff (back to 18 and 21 frames)
M bang recovery, additional frames of recovery, no pushback
additional teleport recovery after bomb cancel/remove bomb cancel

Painwheel

HI install Rework:

Reduced to level 1
Catheads level reduced metergain/no metergain for duration
Enhanced supers cost 2 bars/can choose to use level 1 versions instead

2mp drag down on hit
normalizing her point
tweak jlk and jlp hitboxes/few more frames of hitstun (blockstun unchanged)
2mk will reach after max range 2lk


Parasoul:

5lp (5lp 2) not as minus/+0
bikes super pushback reduced/blockstop tweaked

Robo Fortune:

Slight damage buff on single hit or light normals (reward for zoning tools and AAs, light normals currently do way too little)
!Level 3 Rework potential!
Level 3 + Magnet + Explosion not requiring OTG

Valentine:

214lp+lk - Air 236PP confirm - buffer added or normalize character release point from grab bag release

Any change that makes characters more fun and their gameplans more consistent is a plus imo, if it doesn't severely impact matchups that is.
 
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Hey, it's late and I'm tired, so I care less about worrying if my post is complete or well-thought out enough to post.

Here you go.

- 3rd IPS/Undizzy indicator color for "it has been longer than 90f and you now have a guaranteed gold burst"
--- This seems like it's already being addressed, but I'll list it anyway since it *is* on my list.

- 1f buffer on button dash inputs.
--- See above. Already being workshopped, but included anyway.

- Reduction in DHC unscaling when undizzy isn't maxed (currently 70% when under max undizzy).
--- Maybe starting at 50% as an experiment? idk, the power of stacking two fat damage DHCs together at the start of a combo to front load damage then just doing the DHC'd chars BnB feels moderately dissatisfying. Level 5's can be exempt at still start at x0.55 because it's 5 meter, sure.

- Freeze assist lockout timer during superflashes.
--- Something's always rubbed me the wrong way this specific situation and others like it:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1361411825603014661
--- I don't have any gameplay/technical reasons that this should be implemented, but man does it feel like *garbage* to suddenly lose all your momentum and have to play the clown's game for the cost of one dynamo because hurtboxes weren't playing nice. If this gets added and it at least costs a DHC to combo after, I think I'd probably be satisfied.
--- This would affect post-super combo routing as well anywhere there's an assist getting hit and being locked out, but I'm willing to experiment with that too.

- Remove right-stick assist inputs because pad players have had it too good for too long and WHY CAN'T MY HITBOX DO IT TOO.
--- (This one is a joke.)

Double:
- Seems mostly fine, tbh? Her toolkit seems mostly balanced and useful with very little outside of some feedback about supers.

- Change *something* about level 5.
--- Restore (all or some of) level 5's old damage so it can at least keep pace with the current set of damage-centric level 5's in the game, OR, reduce the damage on *every other* level 5.

- Re: "Shorter catheads timer on DHC"
--- Sure, for a get out of jail free card, I'd be willing to experiment with this (maybe make timer 50%/67% the normal length when coming out of a DHC?).
--- This doesn't really change how teams with AC options interact with it, but I don't really have an issue with that as a Double player.
--- RIP to bomber loops tho, pour one out for the theoretical best meter usage that no one could actually do.

Bella:
- Eh, she seems fine? I have no outstanding complaints to improve her QoL, since she's already got it pretty good.

Band:
- Needs a couple of tweaks for bringing him in line, imo, but is otherwise fine. No QoL buffs needed here, but some of his options just ended up being *way* too good in the long run.

- Cloud mentioned Beat Extend > SSJ frame traps being super unfun, and I think I agree. Extend > SSJ should *only* be able to be a blockstring on block, it just feels bad as an interaction to start your punish too early and get SSJ'd, or start your punish too late because you were worried about SSJ and then getting DP'd again.

- Nerf Level 5, lmao.
--- This shit is way too good and we all know it now.
--- The blocking indicator is fine, leave it in.
--- Some kind of shortcut to come out of level 5 timestop early may be cool? But this maybe introduces a new toy for Big Band to play with in terms of mixups coming out of level 5 so I'm not sure.
--- No wallbounce of any kind on hit, assist or point, so that there can be zero chance of combo follow ups.
----- This also removes Level 5's "utility" of nuking assists when they're on screen and abusing the assist's wallbounce back to avoid punishment.
--- Have Level 5 hard knockdown/sliding knockdown on hit, regardless of OTG status.
----- It's still a level 5, after all. Gotta have something.
----- Big Band can recover in a position where he can dash up and still have approximately the same frame advantage as an A-Train sliding knockdown.

- Taking another Cloud point, give A-Train the Excellebella treatment and neuter the scaling as an assist.
--- An eye for an eye. :)
--- We nerfed Excella for giving too much damage and resources to characters that benefit from resource stocks, I don't see why it doesn't also apply here.

Fukua:
- Feels pretty fine, tbh? She seems extremely solid at the moment with no outstanding issues that need to immediately be addressed, imo.

- Possibly introduce more practical ways for her to recover her shadow life drain pool?
--- It's currently only taunt, armored grab, and level 3 that recover this in various amounts, iirc.
--- You'd need more experienced Fukua player feedback on exact practical cases, this is above my paygrade.

Peacock:
- Probably the best character in the game on the current patch. Needs some nerfs to fall more in line with everyone else.

- More recovery on M Bang.
--- Make it -13 or -14 on block and add a slight vacuuming effect toward Peacock, everyone should be able to block this and punish with their cLK, at a minimum. No more getting hit by M Bang after missing the M Bang punish, please.

- Nerf meter gain when Lenny is out.
--- It's kind of ridiculous that Peacock currently builds like 70% meter after putting a Lenny out before the opponent has a chance to jump forward after Lenny explodes.
--- Set her meter gain to the game's minimum, like when Undizzy is maxed out.
--- I do not want to this bomb torment 7 times a game.

- Remove/adjust the SOID level 2 reset loop.
--- An absurdly powerful reset tool that ended up being too strong in the long run.
--- Finding a sweet spot where it's still nice to use and also not the obvious best option to go for every time is ideal, but I don't know how possible that is.
--- If we're just looking for ways to completely kill it, make level 2 SOID soft knockdown on air hit like L Bang.
--- Fix the air vacuuming on block so that if we successfully block the item, we're not also taking another left/right about which side of Peacock we're landing on before they hit us with cLK.

- All Georges are removed from the screen the frame after Peacock is hit.
--- Sure, I'll trade with bombs if they hit me the same frame as I hit Peacock, that's fine.
--- Just let me do a combo on her without doing differential equations about how to not get hit by L George and die.
--- Please.

Painwheel:
- A very good character with some very painful corner cases. Would benefit greatly from some QoL love to normalize her hit confirms in scrambles.

- Boost her meter gain a bit.
--- I know this is a function of Buer scaling, but being able to build at least 80% of a bar doing a BnB like everyone else when she's down toward 70% (iirc) would be helpful.
--- Would further reward players who know how to route around Buer and help them build some meter on point.

- Add a downward vacuum to cMP (ala Para sHP/Double jHP).
--- Possibly turn this into a hatred guard normal? It'd be neat to try out, imo.
--- God, if I had a dollar for every time I've seen this button spit someone out the wrong way in a match and then PW dies, I could have my very own Skullhouse by now.
--- Helps with the previously mentioned hit confirms in scrambles.

Ms. Fortune:
- Seems to mostly be fine aside from her meter gain bug, but she's probably the character closest to falling out of this category and into the one below for me.

- Remove the meter gain bug on her Rekka chains.
--- This was confirmed to be a bug during prior development but was left in as a "feature". Nah, no more. Goodbye, 1.5 meter for breathing.

- Get rid of her LP > LK gatling.
--- Quit breaking my armor with the best sLP in the game followed up into one of the best cLKs. So there!
--- Commit to a medium for your hit confirms, nerd.

Squigly:
+1 LOUUUUUUUDKING, already articulated anything I had thought of.
- Re-emphasizing that figuring out a way to make Daisy Pusher DHC work would be SICK.

Eliza:
+1 LOUUUUUUUDKING, these seem fine.
- Helping her not bleed out so much meter in the recovery/unsummon of Sekhmet where possible can't hurt, imo.
- Probably needs additional help, but I'm not the person to give more feedback about it.

Filia:
- Seems fine on the surface, no comment.

Valentine:
- If I could tell the game "Have her normals combo properly in more situations so we can stop having a meme about it" and the game would know what I mean, that'd be my buff. But that's not how games work, obviously.
- No other comments.

Parasoul:
- I got nothing, she seems extremely solid and may actually not need anything.
- Fix up the framedata of sLP so it's not so atrocious, maybe? That's about it.

Beowulf:
- He needs *something* where he can actually feel like a complete character when he's on his own, but I couldn't even start to tell you what that is.
- If A-Train gets brought in line with Excella with no buffs for the chair man, chair man is in for an extremely bad rest of his lifetime.

Robo:
- Seems fine on the surface, nothing outstanding worth giving a significant buff/nerf.
- Re: Level 3, some kind of explosion shortcut that costs 0 meter would be neat.

"OH WAIT I FORGOT ONE" edit:
Peacock:
- Take Road Roller out of the level 3 item drop cycle, no one's ever happy to see it when they're playing the game, even if it is hype for bracket streams/commentary lmao.
- Since Tenraiha already has the "1 taunt stored" slot, lock it behind having 2 taunts stored and then it can be guaranteed to be the next level 3 item someone puts out, if it's really gotta stay in.
 
Last edited:
Fosh said:
Hey, it's late and I'm tired, so I care less about worrying if my post is complete or well-thought out enough to post.

Here you go.

- 3rd IPS/Undizzy indicator color for "it has been longer than 90f and you now have a guaranteed gold burst"
--- This seems like it's already being addressed, but I'll list it anyway since it *is* on my list.

- 1f buffer on button dash inputs.
--- See above. Already being workshopped, but included anyway.

- Reduction in DHC unscaling when undizzy isn't maxed (currently 70% when under max undizzy).
--- Maybe starting at 50% as an experiment? idk, the power of stacking two fat damage DHCs together at the start of a combo to front load damage then just doing the DHC'd chars BnB feels moderately dissatisfying. Level 5's can be exempt at still start at x0.55 because it's 5 meter, sure.

- Freeze assist lockout timer during superflashes.
--- Something's always rubbed me the wrong way this specific situation and others like it:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1361411825603014661
--- I don't have any gameplay/technical reasons that this should be implemented, but man does it feel like *garbage* to suddenly lose all your momentum and have to play the clown's game for the cost of one dynamo because hurtboxes weren't playing nice. If this gets added and it at least costs a DHC to combo after, I think I'd probably be satisfied.
--- This would affect post-super combo routing as well anywhere there's an assist getting hit and being locked out, but I'm willing to experiment with that too.

- Remove right-stick assist inputs because pad players have had it too good for too long and WHY CAN'T MY HITBOX DO IT TOO.
--- (This one is a joke.)

Double:
- Seems mostly fine, tbh? Her toolkit seems mostly balanced and useful with very little outside of some feedback about supers.

- Change *something* about level 5.
--- Restore (all or some of) level 5's old damage so it can at least keep pace with the current set of damage-centric level 5's in the game, OR, reduce the damage on *every other* level 5.

- Re: "Shorter catheads timer on DHC"
--- Sure, for a get out of jail free card, I'd be willing to experiment with this (maybe make timer 50%/67% the normal length when coming out of a DHC?).
--- This doesn't really change how teams with AC options interact with it, but I don't really have an issue with that as a Double player.
--- RIP to bomber loops tho, pour one out for the theoretical best meter usage that no one could actually do.

Bella:
- Eh, she seems fine? I have no outstanding complaints to improve her QoL, since she's already got it pretty good.

Band:
- Needs a couple of tweaks for bringing him in line, imo, but is otherwise fine. No QoL buffs needed here, but some of his options just ended up being *way* too good in the long run.

- Cloud mentioned Beat Extend > SSJ frame traps being super unfun, and I think I agree. Extend > SSJ should *only* be able to be a blockstring on block, it just feels bad as an interaction to start your punish too early and get SSJ'd, or start your punish too late because you were worried about SSJ and then getting DP'd again.

- Nerf Level 5, lmao.
--- This shit is way too good and we all know it now.
--- The blocking indicator is fine, leave it in.
--- Some kind of shortcut to come out of level 5 timestop early may be cool? But this maybe introduces a new toy for Big Band to play with in terms of mixups coming out of level 5 so I'm not sure.
--- No wallbounce of any kind on hit, assist or point, so that there can be zero chance of combo follow ups.
----- This also removes Level 5's "utility" of nuking assists when they're on screen and abusing the assist's wallbounce back to avoid punishment.
--- Have Level 5 hard knockdown/sliding knockdown on hit, regardless of OTG status.
----- It's still a level 5, after all. Gotta have something.
----- Big Band can recover in a position where he can dash up and still have approximately the same frame advantage as an A-Train sliding knockdown.

- Taking another Cloud point, give A-Train the Excellebella treatment and neuter the scaling as an assist.
--- An eye for an eye. :)
--- We nerfed Excella for giving too much damage and resources to characters that benefit from resource stocks, I don't see why it doesn't also apply here.

Fukua:
- Feels pretty fine, tbh? She seems extremely solid at the moment with no outstanding issues that need to immediately be addressed, imo.

- Possibly introduce more practical ways for her to recover her shadow life drain pool?
--- It's currently only taunt, armored grab, and level 3 that recover this in various amounts, iirc.
--- You'd need more experienced Fukua player feedback on exact practical cases, this is above my paygrade.

Peacock:
- Probably the best character in the game on the current patch. Needs some nerfs to fall more in line with everyone else.

- More recovery on M Bang.
--- Make it -13 or -14 on block and add a slight vacuuming effect toward Peacock, everyone should be able to block this and punish with their cLK, at a minimum. No more getting hit by M Bang after missing the M Bang punish, please.

- Nerf meter gain when Lenny is out.
--- It's kind of ridiculous that Peacock currently builds like 70% meter after putting a Lenny out before the opponent has a chance to jump forward after Lenny explodes.
--- Set her meter gain to the game's minimum, like when Undizzy is maxed out.
--- I do not want to this bomb torment 7 times a game.

- Remove/adjust the SOID level 2 reset loop.
--- An absurdly powerful reset tool that ended up being too strong in the long run.
--- Finding a sweet spot where it's still nice to use and also not the obvious best option to go for every time is ideal, but I don't know how possible that is.
--- If we're just looking for ways to completely kill it, make level 2 SOID soft knockdown on air hit like L Bang.
--- Fix the air vacuuming on block so that if we successfully block the item, we're not also taking another left/right about which side of Peacock we're landing on before they hit us with cLK.

- All Georges are removed from the screen the frame after Peacock is hit.
--- Sure, I'll trade with bombs if they hit me the same frame as I hit Peacock, that's fine.
--- Just let me do a combo on her without doing differential equations about how to not get hit by L George and die.
--- Please.

Painwheel:
- A very good character with some very painful corner cases. Would benefit greatly from some QoL love to normalize her hit confirms in scrambles.

- Boost her meter gain a bit.
--- I know this is a function of Buer scaling, but being able to build at least 80% of a bar doing a BnB like everyone else when she's down toward 70% (iirc) would be helpful.
--- Would further reward players who know how to route around Buer and help them build some meter on point.

- Add a downward vacuum to cMP (ala Para sHP/Double jHP).
--- Possibly turn this into a hatred guard normal? It'd be neat to try out, imo.
--- God, if I had a dollar for every time I've seen this button spit someone out the wrong way in a match and then PW dies, I could have my very own Skullhouse by now.
--- Helps with the previously mentioned hit confirms in scrambles.

Ms. Fortune:
- Seems to mostly be fine aside from her meter gain bug, but she's probably the character closest to falling out of this category and into the one below for me.

- Remove the meter gain bug on her Rekka chains.
--- This was confirmed to be a bug during prior development but was left in as a "feature". Nah, no more. Goodbye, 1.5 meter for breathing.

- Get rid of her LP > LK gatling.
--- Quit breaking my armor with the best sLP in the game followed up into one of the best cLKs. So there!
--- Commit to a medium for your hit confirms, nerd.

Squigly:
+1 LOUUUUUUUDKING, already articulated anything I had thought of.
- Re-emphasizing that figuring out a way to make Daisy Pusher DHC work would be SICK.

Eliza:
+1 LOUUUUUUUDKING, these seem fine.
- Helping her not bleed out so much meter in the recovery/unsummon of Sekhmet where possible can't hurt, imo.
- Probably needs additional help, but I'm not the person to give more feedback about it.

Filia:
- Seems fine on the surface, no comment.

Valentine:
- If I could tell the game "Have her normals combo properly in more situations so we can stop having a meme about it" and the game would know what I mean, that'd be my buff. But that's not how games work, obviously.
- No other comments.

Parasoul:
- I got nothing, she seems extremely solid and may actually not need anything.
- Fix up the framedata of sLP so it's not so atrocious, maybe? That's about it.

Beowulf:
- He needs *something* where he can actually feel like a complete character when he's on his own, but I couldn't even start to tell you what that is.
- If A-Train gets brought in line with Excella with no buffs for the chair man, chair man is in for an extremely bad rest of his lifetime.

Robo:
- Seems fine on the surface, nothing outstanding worth giving a significant buff/nerf.
- Re: Level 3, some kind of explosion shortcut that costs 0 meter would be neat.
re fukua and pw

fukua hitconfirming into lvl 3 is most practical way to Regen health but people get hit by armored grab all the time so idk

pw 2mp already has armor, honestly I have not had a weird cross over under on pw normal string interaction in years I don't see it as an actual problem. for consistency sake drag down on 2mp could be fine but it would also hit some of my corner routing not being able to do 2mp hbuer
I don't think it's a problem that ever comes up for me but I also never do like, 2hp l pin dash under left rights so idk. maybe low to ground jmp air hits? I just fly jmk confirm there in almost every situation so I'm not sure
if someone can show me a common situation with weird auto correct stuff I'm totally down to change it but it's definitely an avoidable situation
 
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LazyBakemono said:
Fortune:
Head spike assigned to j.214HP only. This one prevent a lot of misinputs and makes it inline with other head moves
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE THIS

If Fortune gets any QoL changes AT ALL, it should be this one. Just completely remove being able to head toss with LP and MP, and only let her do it with HP. Please! I'm actually begging

-If Painwheel's point gets "normalized," won't that also get rid of a lot of the mixups she gets? If it gets changed to be "normal," definitely do it for Bella's sLK and her falling-in-hitstun point.
-Painwheel's H Buer should be disjointed up until the active frames end. Right now, using it to antiair (or reading jumps) causes it to lose in most cases. Reading a jump in, going for the H Buer callout, and then getting hit anyway feels terrible on a move that is only active for 2 frames, and doesn't give any reward midscreen without spending meter.
-I'm also echoing the issue with getting Buer inputs while only wanting to a K button (or refly) when getting crossundered loses the Painwheel player the game usually. I definitely want to experiment with P input for at least the air Buers and see how it goes.
-Also giving the obligatory "L Buer's hitbox should be higher" remark here

Ditto on letting Robo use only 1 or 2 of her heads for missiles instead of all of them by default, would let them be more flexible. She absolutely does not need better tracking on lv1 and 2 missiles though, they are completely fine as is

Also, I agree with Kenin on changing recommended assists on Character Select. We can choose based on a poll or something

How do people feel about the scribble cat though? Personally, I don't think I want it in the game anymore for obvious reasons, but wondering how others felt about it?
 
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small thought thats echoing things i've heard from others: it would be really cool if UD drained slower on resets

as is it drains 4-5UDish every frame which is nutty when most resets will have a few frames gap
even mash tight air resets can drain 30-40 UD which can translate to 2k+ more damage depending on resources available
 
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Liam said:
Hello all, I am present.
Thanks for your thoughts so far. :)

Except stuff like this, which is not helpful at all, and should be kept on Twitter:

it was not a joke though. Ive been asking for that super for a long time as an option for zoning and a finisher.

sorry i did not make it clear.
 
i do am thinking of peacock as a solo, so maybe the super opticblast might be too much of a tool for a team peacock
 
Triviality said:
Please give peacock a way to do her Tag-In move as a dedicated special

i always loved that one in the beta bit i think it was too good for her, so it was changed to back teleport
 
I want to ask what exactly are y'all doing that cat spike gets in the way of anything? I do cat spike with MP and I've just never had any problem with cat spike being on all three punches, I'd prefer it stay the same as it is because MP is much easier and nicer on my hands.
 
Stuff said:
I want to ask what exactly are y'all doing that cat spike gets in the way of anything?
Happens the most with airdash jLP stuff, and during scrambles. So if you want it to stay on MP, that's fine too, I just really don't want it to come out from LP at the least.

---Current thoughts on Robo changes---

IDJ overheads being gone hurts, but now she has better tools overall to help her zoning, which should be her priority anyway, specifically the beam changes

Magnet hitstop change: Thank you

L Danger change: THANK you

M Danger changes: new routes are cool, need more time on this one. Without otg, there was no ender that comboed into cannon on an assist without Mine due to hitstop, so the M Danger changes are hugely appreciated.

---Robo Install Changes---

Airdash: MIGHT be too strong in tandem with air beams being plus, we need more time on this one. But on that note...

Air beams: At least one of them should still be able to sliding knockdown, but probably taken away due to airdash. That said, not sure how to feel on air L Beam just yet? It ground bounces, but it bounces so low that you can easily mistake it for a soft knockdown. That, together with it dragging down on air hit makes it a little less intuitive to use during combos. Air M Beam is really good for corner combos, but not much else outside of that. A knockdown at all is still better than no knockdown during neutral tags though, so it's fine.

Magnet + Timer Half speed: Magnet ground bouncing during install... need more time on this I think. The countdown slowing down to half speed is good if you want to stay in install. HOWEVER, both of these together creates a situation of "So when can I blow up safely really?"
With the timer slowdown, it became increasingly difficult to make the combo as long as possible to blow up somewhere in the middle of it safely since the counter will usually outlast it. The answer to controlling her explosion before was to Magnet (or alpha counter/tag), which was fair since she was spending 4 bars altogether. But now, it bounces, which is fine for new things. But I'd suggest being able to cancel directly into 214P even if it means losing a followup in order to have a bit more control on her timer. That, or being able to hold a button to blow up. Either Magnet or the timer slowing down should be adjusted.

The timer HUD: A few have expressed that it's a bit too big and distracting during matches, perhaps making it a bit smaller would be better?

Head usage to increase timer: In neutral, it's currently really risky, which is fine, it's inline with what she's about in install. But giving her at least one way to do it safely if she DOES get the hit would help a bit. Maybe a cancel from sHK/cHK/Magnet?
 
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Stuff said:
I want to ask what exactly are y'all doing that cat spike gets in the way of anything? I do cat spike with MP and I've just never had any problem with cat spike being on all three punches, I'd prefer it stay the same as it is because MP is much easier and nicer on my hands.
i'd like this change so that it would let me do gato+assist with the same button press
 
Stuff said:
I want to ask what exactly are y'all doing that cat spike gets in the way of anything? I do cat spike with MP and I've just never had any problem with cat spike being on all three punches, I'd prefer it stay the same as it is because MP is much easier and nicer on my hands.
As a Fortune player I'm ambivalent to changing Head Toss' input. I don't get it accidentally very often (and when I do it's never that big a deal) and I find inputting Head Toss with LP the most comfortable personally. But the only reason against changing it just seems to be muscle memory which is a rather flimsy reason imo. We can always change our muscle memory after all.
 
Annie's meter drains when she wins a round as a solo during the transition to the next round if she was in her install. Should this get fixed?

Is it also possible to have QM queueing as an option in Training Mode?
 
Eliza rework thoughts so far
New Super (++)
The ability to convert previously awkward sekhmet hits is fantastic, the crumple is a nice touch. This would be worth it even without the ability to recall and continue a combo.
M spiral(?)
This still doesn't exist to me. The Meter gain seems no stronger than a khat X3 route, the damage is better on a H spiral route, so unless there is a specific Meter breakpoint to hit I don't see this being used. My suggestion would be to either give it a once per combo long hitstun like L spiral which would give you a boring ground loop option, or make it a nice reset point somehow. Very low priority to me, m hairball has similar issues.
Blood mechanic (+)
The most interesting parts of this are the positional minigames that could develop around preventing healing, and the comeback and timerscam potential.
The less exciting parts are that butchers blade is exponentially more rewarding than other sekhmet moves. The timer scam strategies could potentially become extremely frustrating for people to deal with. The process of healing is not very tactile(can't think of a better word). This makes sense since she's kinda just slurping up health, but you don't get a lot of feedback while playing which makes tracking your health pretty tough. Healing between rounds in 1v1 needs to go.
Taunt(-)
Unfortunately since Blood drops in pretty convenient places to begin with, I don't think bringing it closer to your feet is enough of an incentive to use this. The biggest disappointment is that taunt assist recovers before it can get any healing. Perhaps making them fly directly into you would be better, or maybe do something else neat with the drops?
Sekhmet assists (?)
This is a tough one, since meterless butchers is a pretty big deal. I don't like that axe is so much worse than butchers now as the health cost offset isn't much. The global assist lockout on use is also a bit confusing to deal with. The ability to call Eliza onto some Blood drops and heal her is one of the cooler things mechanically

A training mode request since I am gonna need to lab health gain would be to separate the health % from the infinite/normal setting like with meter or maybe add some red health options.
 
Is Annie's Star Power supposed to cost 1 bar on DHC? It's kinda pointless to do as a DHC when you only have 2 bars 'cause you spend one to super then the next to DHC to Star Power and then you have 0 meter to spend it with. If it's supposed to cost 1 bar that's okay, I just want to make sure so I stop being dumb and input as a dhc when I only have 2 bars. That way I'll do pillar of creation or something.

EDIT: Also idk if I'm going crazy or not but inputs seem to not work sometimes in both retail and annie beta but again idk if I'm just going insane or not but I swear it's harder to input things now/things seem to drop more.

EDIT 2: I'm going to shoot my shot, I'm sorry HVS and Future Club..

Some suggestions on character changes
https://pastebin.com/Ge3XtrZf

Better to have tried and lost than never tried and lost.
 
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Stuff said:
Is Annie's Star Power supposed to cost 1 bar on DHC? It's kinda pointless to do as a DHC when you only have 2 bars 'cause you spend one to super then the next to DHC to Star Power and then you have 0 meter to spend it with. If it's supposed to cost 1 bar that's okay, I just want to make sure so I stop being dumb and input as a dhc when I only have 2 bars. That way I'll do pillar of creation or something.

EDIT: Also idk if I'm going crazy or not but inputs seem to not work sometimes in both retail and annie beta but again idk if I'm just going insane or not but I swear it's harder to input things now/things seem to drop more.

EDIT 2: I'm going to shoot my shot, I'm sorry HVS and Future Club..

Some suggestions on character changes
https://pastebin.com/Ge3XtrZf
https://pastebin.com/Ge3XtrZf
Better to have tried and lost than never tried and lost.

Just fyi, Charged silver chord is just faster, and longer reach. Damage is the same. maybe slightly longer stagger with the charged version
 
Thank you for adding the new indicator for unfly guard cancel.
I was wondering if it could be more visible because it's a little hard to see currently 'cause the block animation makes it a little hard to see and in darker stages it's harder to see. Maybe I'm just blind idk

I think this is a great change 'cause it's easier to see when I can get an even nicer punish.
 
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Not sure if this is known or if it's a feature but I would like if Annie's second hit of North Knuckle didn't build extra undizzy (it specifically impacts her optimal routes in the corner). Not sure if it's counted as a separate special move but I think it should act similar to Fortune's Rekas where all three hits are considered the same special move. If it's intended to work that way that's cool just thought I'd ask.

Also just wondering and this can be ignored if no one thinks it's a good idea but I would like if Annie could IAD at point blank range and hit overhead similar to fortune/filia. I'm thinking having j.lks hit box extend down a little more to act similar to Filia's j.lk. Annie can already overhead from a small distance away with IAD j.mp so I don't think it's that big of a deal to give her the option for when she's close up as well. Please ignore this if no one likes it.

-Thanks!
 
Parasoul suggestion.
Instant air toss is currently subject to two separate and redundant nerfs. The first is that instant air tosses are made smaller and weaker for a short time. The second is that j.lp will always cause a small explosion when triggering tears. I propose that one of these is removed. The first one seems like the most obvious candidate for removal since it's, as I see it, an unintuitive and very specific exception to how tears work otherwise. The second nerf alone accomplishes the objective of making instant air toss slower and more risky.
 
So in regards to Annie, I've been playing her almost exclusively since she was added and I've been enjoying her a lot! I'm pretty happy with her kit for the most part, I don't think she has anything crazy crazy strong but she's really well rounded and very versatile in any position in a team, with strong assists and DHCs. She feels good to play right now, but here are the things I'd still like to see adjusted:

jMK- I don't get the point of making the jMK always come out after the float, I feel like empty float would be more of a QoL change than anything.

cHP- Still feels kinda bad to use as an anti-air, hurtbox is kinda high, hitbox is kinda low. It's fine if it stays mediocre but I could see it getting a minor improvement.

North knuckle- Probably the biggest gripe I have with her right now, L(1) being +4 is really nice, but it's the only one that has any use right now, M(1) leaving you close to the opponent midscreen was really nice and I don't understand why that was removed, especially now that you can always confirm from throw (which is great), and H(2) is really low damage for 40 ud and not super cancellable, so it's just pretty much never worth using (ok assist I guess?).

Pillar of creation (lv2)- It's a great dhc super, but pretty underwhelming on point for the 2 bars, if it had some extra hitstun or restored otg to allow for more consistent and fullscreen conversions it would get a lot more use. Also, having people just super/armor/anything invul through it and blowing you up really sucks, so it'd be nice to have it be like supers when you have undizzy where you can block on reaction but not cancel out of moves, could be kinda busted but looking at other lv2s I think it's ok.

Gravity slingshot (lv3)- It's really just bad in general. Doesn't have hitstop, has 7 vulnerable frames on start-up, very easy to beat with invul ACs, low damage, low chip damage (beam does almost the same)... I feel like it's intentionally bad because she has a million supers, but I think it's bit much.

Star Power- Admittedly, I haven't been using this a lot outside of instant install>lv3 so I can't really comment on much, but the dhc recovery is haaaaarsh... so I would just like for it to not be there if you're DHCing midcombo, especially since you use an extra bar compared to using it on point (could be weird tho idk).

Photo bop (install lv3)- Honestly don't know if this is just a meme super, but the damage is really low for the meter you spend.

Also, Annie is like a combination of squigly and bella in terms of dropping out of stuff. I'd very much appreciate her hurtboxes being looked at.
 
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I was wondering if it would be possible to make an assist like say, M pinion into something similar like hairball? And while I'm at it, can Painwheel's nails do 100 more chip per nail? currently the chip value is really low and I think this would up pw's pestering ability if the chip was much higher. pw chip in general is very low and I think she should be more chippy. chip in sg is generally low and while strategies for it exist, they're not that great or could use more help.
 
So L fiber is supposed to hit annie and bella now but it still doesn't if you do 2LK 5MK 5HP 623LK but this string doesn't work on 3 characters, those being bella, annie and squigly. I think it's more of a width issue than a height issue
 
Stuff said:
So L fiber is supposed to hit annie and bella now but it still doesn't if you do 2LK 5MK 5HP 623LK but this string doesn't work on 3 characters, those being bella, annie and squigly. I think it's more of a width issue than a height issue
This string doesn't hit most crouching characters either so it's not a big deal imo (you shouldn't be using it as a hitconfirm string because of how spacing and character dependent it is anyway). Though fyi, you can get that string to work vs those characters (and all crouchers sans Annie, Val and Squig) by doing sMK(1) instead of sMK(2). The only instance of sHP L Fiber whiffing in the current build that makes me sad is that L Fiber whiffs in the sequence Rekka+H Bypass sHP L Fiber vs Bella only, which is kinda weird given sHP L Fiber hits airborne Bella now from my testing (eg from burst baits). But this is prob not going to be resolved since only applies to a couple assists (H Bypass and L Chair from my testing) that aren't very common pairings for Fortune.

I think the main issues with sHP L Fiber have been resolved (thanks a bunch HV/Liam!) since it was mainly important for punishes on reversals and airborne burst baits vs Bella (since you had to use sHK before which was slower and did less damage), both of which work fine now.
 
idk I'd rather edge cases not be edge cases but if people are fine with that then I don't think I have much of a bearing in the discussion.

I came here to ask if PW 2MK to 5HP could pretty please pretty pretty please be a blockstring, as a bug fix, it's her main blockstring but it has a gap people can super through

granted, you can just stop at 2MK, it's visually possible but a lot of characters have LMH blockstrings that actually work and the only one that works with PW is 2HP iirc but that's kind of defeating the purpose of her much longer normals. idk I can't help but feel like even this will get some type of argument.

But I did say pretty please so pretty please?
 
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