• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

The Power of One.

Should solo characters have a function that teams don't?

  • Yes

    Votes: 34 49.3%

  • No

    Votes: 35 50.7%
  • Total voters
    69
Same could be said about a team because of resets and DHCs for days.
 
YOLO supers are also limited by meter. And since when is anything in a fighting game guaranteed to work?

I think we're getting off topic, though.
 
Pretty sure most solos can take out a character on a team with 2 meters, for free with 1 good reset. God forbid that solo actually hit the point and assist character at the same time as well.

EDIT: Maybe not most. I know Peacock and Cerebella can for sure though, probably Fortune as well.
 
Last edited:
shoryusatsu999 said:
Same could be said about a team because of resets and DHCs for days.
Resets != One mistake

Shit, even a single reset isn't equivalent to one mistake because it implies they were already comboing you.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Solo alpha counter would be far too strong at 1 meter. I would not spend meter on ANYTHING else if I could get out of pressure/get the momentum/fraud my way into a combo starter by spending one meter with a solo. If it was 2 meters, it might be fair since it sacrifices super enders for the damage, and once you start the combo from just two meters you won't gain enough to do it again when your combo's over.
Think about it this way: one of a solo's most damaging features is the ability to kill off of one good or two sloppy hits. If you aren't spending meter and saving it all for these counters, it's suddenly going to take you 3 to 6 hits to kill a character. On top of this, say you try and solo alpha counter a move like Filia's c.mk, a multi hitting move. Your options for buttons to hit are suddenly very limited. Many characters would be limited to flat out having to do a fully invincible special into super. And I'm pretty sure, just like there are baits for people who mash and people who pushblock, there'd be specialized baits for things like this. I mean, you are bringing yourself out of blockstun, and can then be grabbed. Something like MGR/Diamond Drop/VA's grab move assist would eat you up.
IsaVulpes said:
Yeah, and then you lose 66% life by being a Trio and getting hit by a single Bella Lv3.. or 60% life by being a Duo, calling assist in the corner and getting hit..
Well, if you're a trio (or duo) and you get hit by solo Bella's lvl 3
images
 
I think using MF as proof of solo viability is part of the problem. She has a built in assist and is largely considered to be the only viable solo.

And while most of us agree that solos can win, I'd still argue that it is 4-6 in the best case ie MF (and maybe Bella?) and 3-7 in average cases.

PW
Bella

I looked for solo Filia players vs top tier, but it looks like Wingzero (the only good solo Filia I know of) chooses a team at that level.

I don't really know many other top tier solo players to fill up the other characters.
 
So if I dig out 5000 matches of Duckator stomping Trios, does that mean Trio vs Trio is 7-3
Are you REALLY assigning matchup numbers to team sizes
Are you being serious

And if Fortune is the only viable Solo, and you want to play Solo, why don't you play Fortune?
I want to zone and I don't really enjoy Peacock, I'm eating the sour apple of zoning Parasoul, .. the end.

For the umpteenth time, what is someone who only enjoys Valentine and Peacock going to do?
Option A: Put in the effort to make Val/Pea or Pea/Val somewhat work, it'll be suboptimal always but uh, if there are people who can win with Anakaris, you should be able to do well anyways
Option B: Accept that you don't live in dreamland where everything is perfect and add Filia (or Double or Bella or maybe even Parasoul..) to the back, as Val/Pea/Fil is quite a viable team
Option C: Whine to Mike that Val and/or Peacock when played as anchor should get something like a defensive burst as their defensive options are too bad
Option D: Drop a character because Mike added some arbitrary buff to Solos that makes it the million times better choice to play Solo Val than a bad team
 
Last edited:
And the argument is that Peacock/Val is still a better team (given reasonable assists) then solo as the strength given to solo is ultimately weakened by the teams access to DHC et al... making it at best... at best... as good as solos, and I would think still a little better. If that's the case, then you haven't shown at all why we shouldn't be talking about solo buffs. You've just given an example of a less than stellar team.

And why don't I play MF? For the same reason I don't play a team. I don't want to. I have little interest in anyone other than PW.

Again, no one is asking for solo to get some arbitrary buff such that they become better than teams, but rather that if it is possible to raise their viability, then we should do so.

That's it. If solo is weaker than teams and can be buffed to be more viable... then we should. The end.

It is almost unanimously agreed upon that solo is weaker than teams (even by you it seems), so the only real question buying into the above is can solos be buffed to be more viable?

And I just picked Duck games because they are the easiest to find, and you can guarantee a relatively consistent skill level as opposed to *random team* vs *random solo*.
 
IsaVulpes said:
And if Fortune is the only viable Solo, and you want to play Solo, why don't you play Fortune?
I want to zone and I don't really enjoy Peacock, I'm eating the sour apple of zoning Parasoul, .. the end.

For the umpteenth time, what is someone who only enjoys Valentine and Peacock going to do?

You know when I put Valentine as my team's anchor I do so in full knowledge that she has sub-optimal assists. But I don't want to risk losing access to her 5 meter because I'm one of the few people crazy enough to value that super. Then again that only works with my friends irl because we are all around the same skill level.

And going back to only having 2-3 viable solo characters, that is the whole point of trying to give solos some sort of mediating mechanic to help make the team concept overall more viable. I shouldn't have to wait for characters like Taliesin, Scythana, and Adam so I can have characters with specific mechanics that aid them against teams.

IMO the lack of mechanics that support solo teams compared to the available suite of mechanics for larger teams is what makes them less viable. When I play SG 1v1 it's a different game than 1v2+, what I would hope is something to make this less the case. Again, I don't need mechanics to make solo valentine comparable to Fortune/Fillia/Double; just an overall system change to give solos some sort of even playing field when compared to all the tools and options that teams get. I've seen defensive bursts, alpha counters, and vampire snapbacks (I'm assuming you get health back from those) all pitched within the thread. None of those ideas are so great a change where you would be forcing the community to un-learn the entire game.
 
Zidiane said:
If you aren't spending meter and saving it all for these counters, it's suddenly going to take you 3 to 6 hits to kill a character. On top of this, say you try and solo alpha counter a move like Filia's c.mk

The trade-off between potential damage via meter use and transforming "I am blocking and being mixed up" situation into "I am now hitting you and converting into a combo" is so ridiculously skewed towards the latter that I am amazed that you think it's even a choice.

In KoF, it's worth spending a meter on guard cancel blowback just to get the momentum back in, even if you'll forfeit the meter necessary for a touch of death because the opportunity to mix your opponent up is crucial. Momentum is ridiculously more crucial in Skullgirls because of the difficulty of blocking high-low and the addition of assists to extend blockstun. The opportunity to turn momentum into a conversion in SKULLGIRLS? Not even remotely a question. Just do it every time.

Let's imagine Ms Fortune had the ability to alpha counter into whatever. I can guarantee you every single time you're put in the situation where you're blocking, and aren't immediately going to land from an air attack afterwards, or be hit with an invul assist, just HK Fiber Upper and take your combo
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
ClarenceMage said:
Let's imagine Ms Fortune had the ability to alpha counter into whatever. I can guarantee you every single time you're put in the situation where you're blocking, and aren't immediately going to land from an air attack afterwards, or be hit with an invul assist, just HK Fiber Upper and take your combo
I can't get the dummy to Alpha Counter, I've never need to before, but trying to get it as evenly starting as possible, I was able to counter hk fiber with mp bang, Merry-Go-Rilla, Devil Horns, Fiber Upper, Head roll, and anything with armor. If I was poking at Fortune with say Cerebella's c.lk, c.mp, and instead of puushing me away to get herself a breath she gambles it all on a Fiber Upper, she's eating a Devil Horns. Fiber Upper is so hard for people to deal with because there isn't a big super flash letting people know their opponent is probably going to try a reversal. On a team, if you were against a solo fortune who was just going for AC reversals so obviously and saving all their meter for it, there are situations you can easily setup to beat it out, and then their out on that meter that if they had used in combo would have killed your character. Alpha Counters aren't even that strong in this game. They can be powerful, but you can't just throw it out every opportunity you get, otherwise your opponent will easily get around it.
 
Spencer said:
And the argument is that Peacock/Val is still a better team (given reasonable assists) then solo as the strength given to solo is ultimately weakened by the teams access to DHC et al... making it at best... at best... as good as solos, and I would think still a little better. If that's the case, then you haven't shown at all why we shouldn't be talking about solo buffs. You've just given an example of a less than stellar team.

Jesus Christ.

Even if we move the goalposts by picking Spencer Approved Assists for the comparison, there is no configuration of Val/Cock (or Ani-Medic, or Hellooo Nurse, or whatever) that would make a viable team. By claiming this, you have also demonstrated that you don't know the fundamentals of what makes specific teams viable, and you have also demonstrated that you aren't qualified to make any statements on the game's balance.

We're not even talking about top tier solos, here. Solo Val, solo Filia, solo Peacock, solo Painwheel, solo Double, characters who need support of some kind to be 100% effective, shit all over Pc+Vl in different exciting ways. Even solo Peacock has an advantage because it's effectively a solo Peacock mirror but one side does double damage. Bella and Fortune? Not even a contest. Nothing the duo has even remotely takes advantage of the additional team mechanics with the lone exception of Val being able to resurrect Peacock after she gets brutally murdered.

If you pick a Solo, you have already selected the most efficient team for that configuration. If you pick a Duo or Trio, your ability to use the additional mechanics rides on intelligent decisions made at the character select screen. Not every Alpha Counter is good, not every DHC will even connect, and not every assist is useful. Until you understand the comparison of "there are at least dozens of teams that are worse than the worst solo, assists be damned," you won't be able to contribute positively to a balance discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ClarenceMage, dekillsage, PaperBag_Sniper and 1 other person
Until you understand that without taking into account any of the benefits of assists, solo only has an 11% health/damage advantage relative to a team of 3, and said advantage actually gets worse with every second of red health, you won't be able to contribute positively to a balance discussion.

Watch a video in which 11 seconds of red health regenerated and you've just watched the entire solo advantage get removed... all of it... giving the team a better effective health/damage gain.

That's without counting on the extra damage or safety net gained by DHC. That's without counting the extra damage or safety net gained by an assist (which is admittedly hard to quantify... but I imagine never of negative value).

Now admittedly those 11 seconds don't always exist in which case solo keeps its advantage, but red health generally comes into play to some extent meaning the solo advantage is never what it seems at round's start.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cynical
IsaVulpes said:
I don't think you understand how red life works Spencer
And you are pretty hung up on silly math experiments
Have you tried playing a team like, ever

Then explain it to me.

The direct bit red life affects is (obviously) health. It never minimizes damage directly.

Solo has 30300 life. Team has 14300 (x3) = 42900 total life. Recoverable health is .5% per 1/2 second (60 frames). I do admit that I don't know if that is additive or multiplicative.

When damage is normalized, health becomes
solo: 30030
3: 26812

Which is an 11% difference. That's where I get my numbers.

And two things about the math. Sure it is incomplete, but it does provide an "at a glance" that is something that hsould at least be considered. And it is rich that you criticize it given your monster post a page or two back using combinations to show what subset solos made up.

Finally, if I pick up a team and learn it to some reasonable extent... would that carry water with you? Would it change your mind if my view point doesn't change? Because I swear to Christ, I'll do it so people will shut the fuck up about my playing a team.
 
Spencer said:
Until you understand that without taking into account any of the benefits of assists, solo only has an 11% health/damage advantage relative to a team of 3, and said advantage actually gets worse with every second of red health, you won't be able to contribute positively to a balance discussion.

Watch a video in which 11 seconds of red health regenerated and you've just watched the entire solo advantage get removed... all of it... giving the team a better effective health/damage gain.

That's without counting on the extra damage or safety net gained by DHC. That's without counting the extra damage or safety net gained by an assist (which is admittedly hard to quantify... but I imagine never of negative value).

Now admittedly those 11 seconds don't always exist in which case solo keeps its advantage, but red health generally comes into play to some extent meaning the solo advantage is never what it seems at round's start.
Okay, so what DHC can Peacock do into Valentine? What DHC can Valentine do into Peacock? Given that there's no safe DHC and they all cover the same angles, where's the safety net?

What about the assist? What assist is Peacock going to use? What assist is Valentine going to use? What's keeping them from not being a pair of solos?

I'd like to stick to this hypothetical example because it's pretty indicative of the greater point, and a particular team you claimed was better than any solos.
IsaVulpes said:
I agree with your general post, but I still think it's a bit weird to read something like this

from a guy who thinks Filia is bad
The difference is that I'm more practical about what counts for what in my discussions, and ultimately I'm capable of changing my position. I still believe Filia is overrated and nowhere near the best in the game (even at the things she supposedly specializes at), but I don't believe she's shit butt ass entirely anymore.

Spencer said:
Finally, if I pick up a team and learn it to some reasonable extent... would that carry water with you? Would it change your mind if my view point doesn't change? Because I swear to Christ, I'll do it so people will shut the fuck up about my playing a team.

Only if you pick a terrible team. In fact, Peacock + Valentine as a duo would fit fine for this. Pick a really awful team and stare down the barrel of any random super or mashed hit resulting in a lost character.
 
Isa, will it convince you if someone who plays a trio says that teams are better than solos based on red life and DHC alone?

Spencer is right as far as that goes. It may be true that some crap like ValCock is worse than solo Peacock (although I kind of doubt it; ValCock certainly wins that matchup, at the very least), but that's an issue of "Val without proper support is worse than Cock without proper support", not an issue of "solos have a real life advantage".

I disagree that solos should be as good, though. SG is better with larger teams; encouraging larger teams is always a positive because of that, IMO.
 
This is fun guys, I love reading the same thing over and over again :D

Anyways, I'm going to try to stay on topic. While I personally believe that solos are fine as they are and that nothing really needs to be changed, it's interesting to hear ideas for how solos could be changed. Of all the ideas I've seen so far I think that @Zidiane has the most interesting, though I personally don't think it would work if implemented exactly as stated.

I find the idea of giving solos alpha counters interesting because it doesn't add an entirely new mechanic to the game, rather it simply re-interprets an existing mechanic under a different situation. But I don't think giving the solo player free range to combo directly out of blockstun at the measly cost of 1 meter is fair, so how about this:

Solos can alpha counter, but they can only follow it up with a super.

Just an idea. I'm not going to explain this in detail because you guys should be able to figure it out for yourselves.
 
@KhaosMuffins

You're right, 90 frames, right? 12.5 seconds total?

@Broken Loose

Look I'm not saying it is ideal by any means, but a walking george can fuck up someone's game pretty solid (knocks people out of combos) and DHC options are super limited, but the ability to all but tag in Peacock at her desired range off of a confirm is not too shabby of a deal, right? In any case, even if the team is so bad that the assist renders the game effectively neutral... my point is that solo has a minor health/damage advantage which can be minimized given time.
 
It's not a free combo for one meter, though ;_;
 
Zidiane said:
It's not a free combo for one meter, though ;_;

Then I must be misunderstanding something about your idea., or perhaps I'm just being stupid :P

Do you mean to say that it's not "free" because it costs one meter, or are you implying that you wouldn't necessarily be able to combo off of it? Either way, I believe that if you could input any move out of an alpha counter it would give way too much power to the defending player, regardless of the fact that they spent a meter to do so. That's why I suggested allowing solos to perform alpha counters, but limiting them to following them up with supers rather than any move of their choice.
 
Skullmageddon said:
Then I must be misunderstanding something about your idea., or perhaps I'm just being stupid :P

Do you mean to say that it's not "free" because it costs one meter, or are you implying that you wouldn't necessarily be able to combo off of it? Either way, I believe that if you could input any move out of an alpha counter it would give way too much power to the defending player, regardless of the fact that they spent a meter to do so. That's why I suggested allowing solos to perform alpha counters, but limiting them to following them up with supers rather than any move of their choice.

except for filia. she can only do her DP super, because fuck filia.
 
PandaGirlBingo said:
What if we add the ability to pick the same character more than once like in xmen vs sf.
Can't wait to see Filia backed by hairball and updo assists.

I like the way you think.

I'm going to Hatred Install into Hatred Install. Best 3 meters I'd ever spend.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Broseidon Rex
Skullmageddon said:
Then I must be misunderstanding something about your idea, or perhaps I'm just being stupid :P
I must have phrased it wrongly, that's my bad. But, it'll basically be like Alpha Counters are now. Try and use c.lk as an assist for the sole purpose of Alpha Countering into it, see how many times it connects. It's not going to be often (if ever). As the game is now, alphaing into any multi hit move will get you stuffed unless you do a special. Even ACing non-multi hit moves, unless you wait till the very last button in their chain then you're getting hit by the move they chained to. If they call an assist before you AC or if you try and AC an assist like Cerecopter, you get beat.

For the vast majority of situations, your only viable option would be a special or super. If you do a special, though, it can be countered. I can Merry Go Rilla Ms. Fortune's HK fiber on reaction on Alpha Counter. This would be a tool you would need to use very carefully, and the safest times to use it would already be if you countered into a super. Countering into a special would be risky, but with the potential to pay off. Countering into a normal would be super hard to pull off, because if the opponent does anything except not block you get beat.

Hopefully, I explained it properly. Even more hopefully, it's a good idea.
 
Zidiane said:
Try and use c.lk as an assist for the sole purpose of Alpha Countering into it, see how many times it connects.

I actually just went into training mode a little while ago and did exactly that to help me think about how this might work for a solo character :P

My view on it is that many of the options that a solo character would have aren't as risky and/or situational as you seem to be implying. I did in fact experiment around with alpha countering into things like Filia's c.lk and I wasn't having any trouble or qualms with regards to converting off of the AC by using c.lk as my combo starter. Keep in mind that this is under the assumption that the solo player only AC's when c.lk would connect.

Yes, AC into c.lk will get beat in most possible situations. How would a player get around this? Simple, they only use it in situations where it won't get beat, a situation that comes up somewhat often and isn't too hard to capitalize off of. I personally feel that if solos could AC into any move, moves like Filia's c.lk would be some of the best options. Yes it requires the solo player to AC perfectly and only under certain situations, but I'm discussing the viability of this mechanic with the assumption that the solo player only AC's when it's optimal. Keep in mind that giving solo players this mechanic would drastically change the optimal play-style of solo characters in general. If I can convert off of blockstun for full solo damage at the cost of an additional meter, then I'm always going to be looking for those situations.

But then again it's difficult to really say anything without being able to directly experiment or play-test anything. I could be completely wrong and I'm probably not considering a number of things in this argument, but I still think that being able to AC into any move is a little too powerful for solo characters. That being said, I think it could be a really interesting thing for solos and it would be neat to see some experimentation in the beta :)
 
Skullmageddon said:
This is fun guys, I love reading the same thing over and over again :D

Anyways, I'm going to try to stay on topic. While I personally believe that solos are fine as they are and that nothing really needs to be changed, it's interesting to hear ideas for how solos could be changed. Of all the ideas I've seen so far I think that @Zidiane has the most interesting, though I personally don't think it would work if implemented exactly as stated.

I find the idea of giving solos alpha counters interesting because it doesn't add an entirely new mechanic to the game, rather it simply re-interprets an existing mechanic under a different situation. But I don't think giving the solo player free range to combo directly out of blockstun at the measly cost of 1 meter is fair, so how about this:

Solos can alpha counter, but they can only follow it up with a super.

Just an idea. I'm not going to explain this in detail because you guys should be able to figure it out for yourselves.
That idea reminds me of Val's counter, and to be honest, I'd rather take every character having a version of that (even though it's a gigantic risk for two bars) over a super-only alpha counter. It wouldn't change any opinions of which solos are "viable," as both Bella and Fortune (the only two considered viable) have invincible-startup level 1s with large horizontal range (vertical range is also large in Bella's case) that can be comboed after and some of the most powerful single moves in the game. The others?

  • Filia: Gregor's always dangerous, but it's been severely nerfed since the days of SDE, and doesn't have much invincibility. Fenrir's more invincible and does more damage, but it won't do much against the like of other DPs (except maybe Squigly's) or disjointed attacks. It's also likely to get an effective damage nerf when BB drops. Level 3? Waste of meter. Wouldn't do anything against most grounded assaults, and the characters that mainly attack from the air are more likely to attempt crossups, which level 3 does nothing against.
  • Peacock: Lenny's out, as you'd only get blown up by him once the opponent realizes what's happening. Goodfellas is also out, as it has to be done from a grab. And Argus? Not invincible through early active frames, reflectable by Bella and simultaneously uncomboable from and easily stuffed from the air unless covered by a SoID, and if they're that close, calling SoID will only get you counterhit.
  • Parasoul: Bikes can be destroyed and reflected, don't cover the air, and has little invincibility. Sniper's even more highly telegraphed than most other supers, is also reflectable and is liable to be blocked and punished. Level 3 is vulnerable to crossups, and it can't be RC'd until after you lose the invincibility.
  • Painwheel: Air super's out, as alpha counters are normally ground-only. Death Crawl is easily jumpable and can be grabbed before active frames begin. Install would only get you counterhit. Level 3? Hatred Guard doesn't help against grabs, and it's likely to be jumped over.
  • Double: Car is as telegraphed as sniper, jumpable and if it misses, you're pretty much dead. Catheads is a similar deal, only even worse as you're not invulnerable when attacking with catheads. Level 3 is also jumpable and does nothing against crossups. Level 5 is right out, assuming that the alpha itself uses one meter and the DHC mechanic of supers past level one using one less meter isn't used.
  • Valentine: Scalpels are reflectable, don't cover the air, and are beaten by crossups. EKG shares most of these problems, though it is more invincible than scalpels. Counter is counter, so I'm not even going to go into its problems. Level 3 is similar to EKG, but is even more risky if whiffed. Level 5 is out for similar reasons to Double's.
  • Squigly: For every position one SBO covers, there are two more that Squigly's vulnerable from. Daisy Pusher can be jumped over and is highly vulnerable if whiffed. Her level 3, though, is one of the better "non-viable" supers to use from a theoretical alpha counter, if only for its homing ability. However, it also shares some of the problems of Filia's level 3, mainly that it doesn't affect most grounded opponents until it comes back for another pass. It's also reflectable (even worse, it can be reflected multiple times if the Bella's lucky).
  • Big Band: I'll need more info before I can write up much on him, but SSJ only benefits from good invincibility when tauntboosted, Timpani Drive is out because it's air-only, and Satchmo's also out, not only for it being a level 5, but because BB has to start with a MP in order to use it.
Also...
PandaGirlBingo said:
What if we add the ability to pick the same character more than once like in xmen vs sf.
Can't wait to see Filia backed by hairball and updo assists.
There's a reason why later games prevented this from happening. Three Cables, anyone?
 
Skullmageddon said:
Yes, AC into c.lk will get beat in most possible situations. How would a player get around this? Simple, they only use it in situations where it won't get beat, a situation that comes up somewhat often and isn't too hard to capitalize off of.
Yeah, but then you have to remember that the opponent, when they're putting pressure on you, has complete control over how they pressure. Kind of like how "Only use Cerebella's lvl 3 in situations where you can" runs into problems when the opponent does nothing but air resets. The Skullgirls skill level isn't at peak levels, but it's certainly capable of making sure their opponent couldn't AC whenever they want into c.lk.

But yeah, it's hard to really and truly know without being able to test it. Maybe one day it'll show in the beta.
 
Agreed. The more I think about it the more your original idea sounds relatively fair, but it's just too hard to say one way or another. Regardless, I still think it's an interesting idea that would be worth testing in beta. I'll just leave things at that :P
 
PandaGirlBingo said:
What if we add the ability to pick the same character more than once like in xmen vs sf.
Can't wait to see Filia backed by hairball and updo assists.

You have no idea how much I would actually want to play this
 
ARGUS AGONY ARGUS AGONY ARGUS AGONY
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back