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Sorry for panicking and mashing raw super like a scrub. Here's what advice I gathered.
DON'T MASH RAW SUPER
Learn to block on wakeup/incoming/during resets
In the eventuality I deal with people who actually air reset me, really learn to block on resets.
Don't tech backwards into the corner.
Anything else? :^(
I think it was 28-50 in the end (me - fenster)
also hi @fenster any advice? Thanks for the advice on cymbal clash. Pasting that here now.
<gllt> fenster what does anyone do about cymbal clash anyways
<gllt> i cant figure it out.
<fenster_> you have to not push buttons and be pateint
<gllt> be patient and do what.
<fenster_> you have to corner me or find a higher angle
<gllt> jump forward and block and?
<gllt> ah
<fenster_> and that
<gllt> so other than getting higher than it
<fenster_> jump forward block, you'll land before me and can pressure me
<gllt> theres nothing else i can do?
<gllt> oh, free pressure
<gllt> ok
Alright, my knees are KILLING ME from sitting on my bed. Later.
@Mike_Z
Sorry for panicking and mashing raw super like a scrub. Here's what advice I gathered.
DON'T MASH RAW SUPER
Learn to block on wakeup/incoming/during resets
In the eventuality I deal with people who actually air reset me, really learn to block on resets.
Don't tech backwards into the corner.
More like, reversal super is a good tool, which is why people use it all the time. But like any tool if you overuse it and become predictable your opponent will kill you for it. Default to blocking, and decide if you want to super or not.
Same on incoming / etc, EVERY TIME you got frametrapped you got counterhit. To the point where after about 5 games I don't think I'd counted a single non-CH.
And yeah, don't tech backward in the corner. In the event you tech forward and get pressured, you are in the same situation as teching backward but you're NOT IN THE CORNER ANYMORE.
Is teching backwards really not ever recommended? I feel like it's a defensive option sometimes worth considering since the only mixups you really need to worry about are high/low/throw. If you tech away, you put yourself into a possibly ambiguous left/right mixup along with all the other options.
I personally won't tech backward if I'm cornered, I'd rather not tech and keep my undizzy full. There's no other difference besides timing.
Teching backwards can be fine, I suppose, but only if you are actually doing both. As it is, most people acquire the "tech backward!" instinct and forget to take position into account.
As an alternate example, people also make the same mistake in Guilty Gear. I had to train myself not to, and I get out of hella things as a result. :^)
also hi @fenster any advice? Thanks for the advice on cymbal clash. Pasting that here now.
Let me talk a little about dealing with cymbals.
First off, there's always the assist counterpick option. I haven't looked through all the footage but from what I remember you played either Filia or Parasoul on point, when either assists work wonders in shutting down the space that BB wants to occupy for Cymbals. Parasoul Napalm shot assist works too though you may not be as familiar with using that assist. Either of these things would've helped a lot.
Secondly, you can even see this in the footage, but there's also character MUs that make Cymbals not as much of a threat either. Once your Double and Parasoul came onto the stage, you should see me do a lot less Cymbals from safe ranges because both of these characters can challenge Cymbals very well (with fireballs and their air buttons). Of course there's still the rest of the MU to play out, but if it was just cymbals giving you trouble then those characters would be good picks as long as you stay cool.
The last thing is just to clarify what I meant in IRC. More or less, I mean to say that Cymbals is great for its obvious range but what it lacks is good startup, not much followup on the way down and the fact that it has a huge tell when used offensively (since I have to jump forward and wait slightly for a position for you to get into the Cymbal range). What all that means is that it is a giant reactable move when used on offense, and that is why it is more typically used from other BB's as a defensive move. When an opponent isn't able to challenge the above reasons, either due to match up or just lack of awareness, that leads way towards Cymbals being a safe-ish offensive approach like what I did a lot in the set.
Your options are to either stuff it out completely (the assist counterpick options I said, or the character MUs I pointed out), or what I suggested in the IRC was to wait it out defensively, the latter of which you didn't do super well most of the time. For example, a lot of times when you called double in response to my cymbals, it was always super pre-emptive and a lot of times you ended up just running into cymbals which killed double too. If you had waited for after I called cymbals to call double, especially if I whiffed the cymbals, that's when I'd be in trouble. Double would catch me trying to jump or move forward, and any assist call I did afterwards, and my only option to not be in block would be to mash brass/DP/SSJ. All of those mash options would lose to you just walking forward and reacting to what I did (like teching or stuffing my throw if you didn't already call double, blocking if I mashed SSJ). I usually deal with BBs by just walking forward and blocking since I know that I can react to what they try and I slowly pressure them until they are in the corner, where usually BB's kill themselves tying to reversal out. Like any advice, it won't work everytime, especially if I learn to adapt mid-set, but I definitely felt that you weren't pressuring BB well enough.
The summary is basically what I said in IRC; be patient, walk forward and get ready to react to what I try since a lot of BB's easy/normal approach options without assist are reactable in their own way. Once you walk me into the corner realize that I'm out of space and catch me in the corner with grabs/air grabs which BB already has trouble dealing with.
Another thing is that, when you played bella, against BB, I saw a lot of jLP. In my experience, BB has way more trouble dealing with jLK and jMP and jHK when trying for normal Cymbal pressure. Maybe it was only for the part of video I saw, but definitely use those moves more and don't give up if they don't work out sometimes because they really can wreck BB.
For General Play, not sure what else to add that Mike didn't other than pay attention to my play and see what/when I mash out, as a part of the whole "bait your opponents" advice. I think as BB I mashed Timpani like 75% more than I usually do in that set? But I felt like you never blocked or tried for any anti-mash setups or anything, those which all work on BB's timpani very well. The incoming mixup is one of those easy "key moments" that you can see and remember mid-match about what your opponent does, so you should see that I mashed timpani a lot on incoming and reacted accordingly.
I also want to point out this match here which I almost won when I very much shouldn't of been close to. BB was getting wrecked, but once you were under pressure against Eliza you immediately stopped trying to block when you had the life lead and just kept mashing super and tag. Instead of trying to just run to my face for dynamo + catheads when you had way more life than me, it would've been a lot different if you just played it out longer and kept cool. Ideally, if you had blocked, countered, and snapped in BB while he was bleeding it probably wouldn't have been as close. If there was a match that was "Stop panicking under pressure", this would be one of tose matches I think. It's also noteworthy because hey look, I mashed SSJ and you blocked! And almost killed BB! Now do that more.
As for how to block, that's more complicated and isn't easy and never gets easier especially with how strong the offensive tools are in this game. One tip I'll tell you though is to pay attention to what hit you in a match and always keep it in mind. If you are getting hit by my eliza, how did I open you up? If I hit you with IAD jLK or sekmet, it's probably because you were blocking too much low. If I hit you with cLK...delay cLK or some low string like that, you need to note down that you are not blocking lows enough. No one can ever be expected to have perfect defense but what you can control is to see your own tendencies like that and try to tone them down to be more unpredictable.
tfw you write more for other people's diaries than your own :'(
Is teching backwards really not ever recommended? I feel like it's a defensive option sometimes worth considering since the only mixups you really need to worry about are high/low/throw. If you tech away, you put yourself into a possibly ambiguous left/right mixup along with all the other options.
Consider the character's options on oki though.
Undizzy puts a wrench in Filia's damage so maybe don't tech unless they know you know this etc.
Peacock with meter couldn't give a shit less about Undizzy to deal damage to you, and has to have a lot of time to set up her left/rights, usually with tells. Might as well tech away and put yourself in the best position and her in her worst position unless you know they know etc.
It's kind of weird playing a game like VSav where tech chases and mixups can be horrifying and then moving to Skullgirls where people pretty much just auto-pilot backwards tech. Even outside the Undizzy or left/right considerations, I'm always amazed at how much not teching or forward teching messes with people, and it's pretty rare that someone adjusts for it offensively. I've seen very few people consider it defensively.
Parasoul (Napalm Pillar) / Filia (HHairball) / Painwheel (???)
I looked at HPinion. I like the damage. Utility in theory is nice, in general, with Para/Filia, I draw a blank. I didn't look at other pinions.
I don't want cMP because I'm using hairball.
I do want a combo extender, really. Pinion just doesn't feel right.
HBuer is actually an anti air grab now. I'm going to test this later when I get in.
LBuer is probably fine.
MBuer has range.
All three of them, though, I imagine, are a bit tough to convert from. With Parasoul, MU dependent, I don't care about converting if I can pester from fullscreen.
Everyone is digging LShot assist and with things like Filia. I like it, sure.
I like Parasoul with Peacock bombs.
I like Filia with SOIDs.
It occurs to me, I like projectile assists.
So, I'm going to test her darts, and see if
para/hairball/dart
filia/pillar/dart
painwheel/pillar/hairball
etc in varying orders, because the point of this team is, unless the MU would be better with point filia/painwheel to, by default, play point para. I choose mid filia by default because the DHC to gregor brings filia in and lets me start that, which is what I want to do with her if she's on my team. painwheel can do that in mid spot if hatred install instead of gregor would be smarter in the MU for the actually not that safe anymore DHC but probably better than gregor. Definitely. But by default I'd rather turn sniper shots into gregor from fullscreen. I think HI can lead to that too, but, w/e. I want this team to be half-ass swap around-able so that things usually work.
Anchor para if I feel like WOW I NEED DP AND MY POINT IS THE DP SO NOW SHE NEEDS TO BE THE ANCHOR
because anchor para is actually the best out of all those options up there to me
i should be running filia/pw/para
but the whole point is i want to run para/hairball and i want pw on the team and i like the way the team works the other way around so nyeh
and if i can, ill actually just be doing tag to pw combos from all my para hits instead of spending meter to dhc to filia unless i just have to, i like consistent tag out combos (why i play double and eliza together) as they provide a meterless emergency escape if you did land a hit
soo damn. what assist. selling myself on trying dart, filia going in behind projectiles and with pillar doesnt sound bad, but i dont know what i think filia needs. or what my filia needs. (to hit people)
my parasoul needs hairball or drill or etc. we're pretending hairball atm because i think playing filia is fun once i have hit people. my parasoul will be missing: bypass assist. she wont be missing cerebella assists. she never made much of them in real matches. val/bella is great, para/bypass is one of my favorite things, can buer be my bypass. do i even care about having a bypass if i can just bring in the painwheel and do the real pain or bring in the filia and bring the underheads? so doing high damage parasoul isnt the point anymore but getting the confirms with her is and then bringing in filia and painwheel to do the dirty. i get two shots at the dirty and they both get pillar behind them. and then i guess im left with 'my main' if they die.
so yeah
pillar/hairball/pw(?)
also i have no idea how to use throw assist but lets put it out there
and sMK
sMK is fucking dope ftr and I guess you can add sHP, cHP, etc since i said I was looking for combo extenders, but like, HBuer is one, and its anti air grab, so 2 benefits vs cHP does a cool ground bounce and some damage and doesn't scale my combo maybe but could do 30 undizzy later in combos instead of 20 since its not a special and aLL THESE OPTIONS AND THINGS TO WEIGH MAKE IT STOP MAN
oh and the double/squigly/eliza flavor of the week is
I feel like I understand how he is supposed to open people up and his tools are appealing. I'm also willing to deal with the chair on/off mode dilemma, unlike Fortune's head on/off situation. I don't know if I suck at him yet. He's fun to play.
Big Band No (I suck and he's not fun for me.)
This character is stressful. I just get wrecked and make terrible reads. I'd have to have a mentor or something to open my eyes, but I think he's just not for me anyways. I don't think that's how he PLAYS, that's just what I do because.. this character stresses me out.
Cerebella Yes (I'm good with her in some way?)
I liked Bella, then hated her, and honestly now she is fun again. I can suddenly 360 pretty well on hitbox which makes me feel like I'm not leaving out an important part of her toolset anymore. That also applies to playing Beo, which bumped him into Maybe status. I still need to work on not autopiloting something repeatedly just because it hit someone the first time. I mostly do this with approaches rather than resets. My approach is liner. However, I still manage to stay in better with Bella than with Filia or Parasoul. Thanks for having good buttons.
Double Yes (^)
I will always like this character. Even if it sucks to get hit sometimes. Even if I feel cool, and people like my resets, and then people press buttons and I die anyways until I snap out of it way too late in the set. I need to wake up when I play this character. I still feel in some way she's a weak link and I want to blame it on her toolset on defense but part of me says that's the scrub in me not accepting that I'm just not doing a good job of playing her consistently and that I need to wake up and think when I play her or admit that she is too much work for me, and I think the latter is bullshit because I say that about any character that I get pushblocked out with or can't even approach someone with. There is no magic character that just gets a hit for free any time they want it. But I would rather work for this character than Valentine or whatever. I don't know. I feel like I'm rewarded for thinking when I actually do. But I think that just means that I somehow 'get' this character better.
Eliza Maybe (AXE and she's okay I guess.)
I hit people with this character a lot but they might just be bad. Bella/Axe and Double/Axe are really good and I could see copter/slide/axe or something honestly. Blocking with her does suck. I don't know how to properly utilize all of her tools yet. Etc. Not sure I have the potential to utilize this character properly. I just know sometimes I hit people and they die. And I've almost made some runbacks with her. She scares people. Axe assist is really good.
Filia Barely Maybe (I suck at her?)
I like having a real DP, I like having gregor, fenrir, etc. I like her corner carry, I like her resets, I like her combos. I like doing her things. I think I even mix up my options well. I also missed every crossunder I tried on QM earlier today vs tall characters even after delaying the jHK as much as possible and launching from otg. Even though I never have before. Why. It's shit like that. That and I don't know how to approach with her properly, I've learned to go in on the ground and mix that up with air approach and it's helped me out a bit but I'm pretty sure I'm a scrub at Filia and I'm not sure if putting in work would make a difference or not because I'm not sure if she's for me. Updo assist is cool I guess. All in all I like the idea of Filia, so there's that. I like hitting people with her. I tell myself what I do with her is good enough, but when I realize some of my stuff is tight or inconsistent among diff weights/characters I realize I'm not as familiar with her stuff as I am with, say, Double or Valentine, and that I need to lab her hard, but honestly I find labbing Filia hard. She was never straightforward to me, I used to hate her combos too. Oh well.
Fukua No (I suck at her.)
I just get pushblocked out and the zoning is boring. jLP hits people. I'm bad at the MClone mixups. Eh.
Honestly this is just Filia for me (I'm not saying she's Filia at all. Okay? Okay.) but I think I suck at her less and I like her buttons but I drop shit and I will never be good at headless and I think she's not worth it at all but whatever she gets a pass.
Painwheel Maybe? (I think I suck, but she's still interesting..)
This character is cool and she makes sense in a lot of ways and am I good enough to play this character. Yeah that's it. Can I armor properly, can I safe jump, etc. Am I smart enough to play this character. I don't know. I don't think so, but I'm willing to try. PW/HChair(Beo) is really really really nice. I'm into that. I like PW Double. I dunno about Bella and PW. She's low priority because bella/double is appealing and other chars seem more appealing right now (Beowulf) but if I give up on them then she's in the mix.
Parasoul No (I give up. Seriously. Please no.)
Peacock Probably Not (I think I suck at zoning and mixing up with her tools.)
Not much else to say than that. Maybe means I could work on her? She's not not fun. She's cool I guess. Not sure I'm cut out for her.
Robo Barely Maybe (I don't know what to think.)
Lumping her in the pile I put Fukua in where I don't understand how to open people up without getting pushed out. Not sure I'm smart enough for this char.
Squigly Really Unsure (I think I suck honestly. Pretty sure I don't really get this char.)
I don't know how to make people try to block the gross things she can do and I'm not always sure how to get a hit in a lot of matchups. I'm just going to get pushblocked out, ran away from, and reversal'd.
Valentine Barely Barely Maybe (Not confident I know what I'm doing with her either.)
Like her, I think I'm good at combos, conversions, resets, setups, even some proper spacing and proper usage of her normals. I even feel like I know what I'm doing in some matchups. I die to mashed reversals. I block and I get thrown and everything else. I don't know what I'm doing with this character against people who don't try to block me and just press buttons or mash things. This is just showing how little I understand about opening people up, honestly. I think I get all of my hits from absurdity at this point vs people who either have good defense or mash things all the time. I don't open those people up. I only open up people who try to block me. I have no idea how to give the other people a reason to block me. I suck at fighting games, basically.
Random tech thing from watching a bit of the fenster matches: Double can instant overhead BB up close with j.lp j.hp instead of having to commit to j.lp xx teacup.
Random tech thing from watching a bit of the fenster matches: Double can instant overhead BB up close with j.lp j.hp instead of having to commit to j.lp xx teacup.
advice on neutral and tactics? dunno lol
I was actually trying to combo it a lot of times and do funny stuff off the stagger (because I think I'm nice) but I wouldn't doubt if I tried to overhead with it because I felt even more nice. (I'm not nice.) Thanks though, I'll play with that.
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