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The Solo Discussion Thread

Zidiane

Zidiane

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Cerebella
Discuss solo stuffs here.

Topics you could discuss:
Solo v Duo/Trio; how difficult/easy it is in certain matchups, how many touches/resets it takes to kill a character.

Undizzy; how it may affect the balance between Solos and Teams.

Meter management; since you don't DHC/Alpha Counter you should have more meter, so what do you do with it (and how that changes the game, if it does).

Important tools that help a character survive solo (maybe through getting the first hit or making an opening, these can be character tools or system tools).

Dealing with certain assists without your own to counter it/make an opening.

The advantage of not having to deal with incoming mixups after losing a character, psychological or tactical.

The psychological advantage of your opponent knowing one mistake could equal a dead character.

Anything else you can think of. While it's not the most popular choice, it has overlooked benefits imho.
 
Since I caught your attention, Zid; What's your opinion on Solo Parasoul vs Cerebella or Peacock?
 
Uzumakihero said:
Since I caught your attention, Zid; What's your opinion on Solo Parasoul vs Cerebella or Peacock?
Well, I don't play Parasoul, but Icky does. And from watching him...

Parasoul v Cerebella: Her air resets are probably some of the strongest tools she has against Bella. Bella can't mash anything like she can with grounded stuff. There's no real safe way to deal with it, so you have to accurately guess what's what, and if you don't then you eat a combo that leaves you if not dead, at death's door. That aside, a lot of her air normals beat Bella's flat out, so she can outpoke her with the right positioning. As for Parasoul's other stuff... I don't think any of it Cerebella has trouble with. It can't be Bella specific, but doing Pillar into bikes on wakeup isn't safe (Bella's j.hk beats it). As for Parasoul dealing with Bella stuff... I don't think she has exceptional trouble with anything in particular. As long as she keeps proper range with air normals, Bella's stuck trying less safe stuff. Basically, the way it seems at least, it feels like it's up to Parasoul whether or not she wins.

Parasoul v Peacock: I actually think she has more tools than people use. Mk soldier I think helps a lot. Waiting for gaps in projectile pressure and than PBGCing into Bike seems like it should work. You can probably catch a Peacock trying to back airdash -> j.hk with Sniper shot, and you could probably do mk soldier into sniper shot when you see her commit to a special (Bang bang bang, any bomb (though maybe not lk, that has shorter active frames)) because at that point she can only do Argus which gets soaked by soldier. I'm not sure, but after any sniper shot you could probably get off a Bike before Peacock can really do anything, so extra pressure. Shots don't seem like such a good idea, especially since Peacock can Argus (though you can sniper shot on reaction and trade I'm pretty sure) and Bang bang bang! beats shot clean most of the time. And then the rest is regular Peacock stuff, not letting her teleport safely, keep her in the corner, etc.

Edit: Also, remember that many Peacock's do jump back, dash back, j.hk at the start of the match. Best time to catch her with Sniper shot.

That was more Parasoul knowledge than I thought I had.
 
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Did Mike change Parasol bike to go away on hit?

Also, Fortune and Filia are easily the best solo characters imo. Puppet character and high mobility character with decent anti-zoning tools (Spire xx Gregor) and the necessary solo pressure/reversal options to get her through without assists. I don't think Bella is a very good solo character, all she really has is damage but that's true for every solo character. Her reversals are iffy and she has a hard time getting in vs zoning teams alone.
 
View619 said:
Did Mike change Parasol bike to go away on hit?

Also, Fortune and Filia are easily the best solo characters imo. Puppet character and high mobility character with decent anti-zoning tools (Spire xx Gregor) and the necessary solo pressure/reversal options to get her through without assists. I don't think Bella is a very good solo character, all she really has is damage but that's true for every solo character. Her reversals are iffy and she has a hard time getting in vs zoning teams alone.
Bike does go away on hit now.

And I don't know much about Filia's situation. I don't catch enough Filia play to really have any judgement. But, yeah, Bella has to roll the dice on a lot on stuff she does. If you know what your opponent is doing she can be scarier than other solos, but it's hard and not consistent (obviously).
 
Zidiane said:
Parasoul v Peacock: I actually think she has more tools than people use. Mk soldier I think helps a lot. Waiting for gaps in projectile pressure and than PBGCing into Bike seems like it should work. You can probably catch a Peacock trying to back airdash -> j.hk with Sniper shot, and you could probably do mk soldier into sniper shot when you see her commit to a special (Bang bang bang, any bomb (though maybe not lk, that has shorter active frames)) because at that point she can only do Argus which gets soaked by soldier. I'm not sure, but after any sniper shot you could probably get off a Bike before Peacock can really do anything, so extra pressure. Shots don't seem like such a good idea, especially since Peacock can Argus (though you can sniper shot on reaction and trade I'm pretty sure) and Bang bang bang! beats shot clean most of the time. And then the rest is regular Peacock stuff, not letting her teleport safely, keep her in the corner, etc.
MK egret should be used with caution, it's definitely good but it doesn't block item drop, air george or her assist so you can't really use it to put much pressure on peacock, it's definitely good for blocking georges and stuff but I've been able to hit parasouls off-guard while they're trying to advance using MK egret when all it really does is reduce chip damage.
I think her best bet is a long-range punish with sniper shot, though. Argus isn't entirely taken by the soldier since the laser pierces him, so I'm not sure that you can sniper shot on reaction to argus. If the peacock is bad, you can super jump and whip out your Marie Poppins glide, but that isn't going to work if they have an AA assist or they can remember that item drop exists. You might be able to get some napalm tosses on her, which would force her closer or force her to block which should give you an opening to advance. She just lacks good tools to keep pressure on peacock, which gives her a really bad match-up against a well assisted peacock.
 
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Horseman said:
MK egret should be used with caution, it's definitely good but it doesn't block item drop, air george or her assist so you can't really use it to put much pressure on peacock, it's definitely good for blocking georges and stuff but I've been able to hit parasouls off-guard while they're trying to advance using MK egret when all it really does is reduce chip damage.
I think her best bet is a long-range punish with sniper shot, though. Argus isn't entirely taken by the soldier since the laser pierces him, so I'm not sure that you can sniper shot on reaction to argus. If the peacock is bad, you can super jump and whip out your Marie Poppins glide, but that isn't going to work if they have an AA assist or they can remember that item drop exists. You might be able to get some napalm tosses on her, which would force her closer or force her to block which should give you an opening to advance. She just lacks good tools to keep pressure on peacock, which gives her a really bad match-up against a well assisted peacock.
Soldier really doesn't protect against the whole Beam...? That seems shitty. Especially since you sniping her should stop it. And as long as you wait to see her doing a special (bangs or bombs) you should be able to use soldier. Yeah, just throwing it out probably leaves you open,. Soldier comes out fast enough to block stuff on reaction though, right? And you can cancel startup into sniper shot? Also, blocking the beam you can then do mk soldier into sniper shot.
 
Zidiane said:
Soldier really doesn't protect against the whole Beam...? That seems shitty. Especially since you sniping her should stop it. And as long as you wait to see her doing a special (bangs or bombs) you should be able to use soldier. Yeah, just throwing it out probably leaves you open,. Soldier comes out fast enough to block stuff on reaction though, right? And you can cancel startup into sniper shot? Also, blocking the beam you can then do mk soldier into sniper shot.
You could still stop her if you had MK egret out before she does it. Block the first beam, then sniper shot. If you sniper shot on reaction it will probably whiff. In fact, there's a decent gap between the first beam and the projectiles, so you might be able to do that without the egret if you time it right (this definitely needs testing.)

MK egret is definitely still good, but there are 2 things you need to keep in mind:
He isn't going to help you advance and actually hit peacock.
Peacock can still hit you.

Conversely, he's useful for:
Punishing the opponent, since if she commits to one of her specials while the egret is out you should be able to hit them with sniper or at least get some napalm tosses out.
Covering an assist that works at long range and eats her projectiles, like hornet bomber or battle butt. Not really relevant to a solo thread, but I threw it in anyway.
Just generally taking less chip damage, all of her really good chip damage moves can't hit you while he's out.
 
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with parasoul you can block first part of beam and then sniper second part. you take a few hits of the second part of the beam, and still get full OTG combo on cock. no MK egret required
 
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GirlyStyle said:
with parasoul you can block first part of beam and then sniper second part. you take a few hits of the second part of the beam, and still get full OTG combo on cock. no MK egret required
Yeah, I figured you would be able to do that. I know some characters can hit her right there, like another peacock can tp behind her, Double can bandwagon, etc.
 
i actually don't mind fighting peacock as parasoul solo.

its when there is an assist in the mix that makes that matchup really hard.
 
Solo Painwheel.

From my experiences:
+ crazy damage against trios' point character is a very slippery slope. if you kill their point character without spending much meter, you have pocket air-supers at your disposal in the late game when they're really pressured to reset you.
+ air-to-air buers catch a lot of overconfident people trying to follow their assist in, and you're safe from the assist while locked in the buer animation with their point.
+ Painwheel's very well equipped punish sloppy enemy assists.

- Difficult to break out of pressure if they have a lockdown assist
- Difficult to approach if they have an AA assist and decent keep-away (Parasoul + Filia:Updo being the worst, but some smarter Peacocks Fortune:Fibers too)
- Extremely difficult against trios if they combine the above two and use them judiciously/intelligently.
- You'll never get the DHC discount for your Hatred Installs. ;_;
 
hlvn said:
- Difficult to break out of pressure if they have a lockdown assist
- Difficult to approach if they have an AA assist and decent keep-away (Parasoul + Filia:Updo being the worst, but some smarter Peacocks Fortune:Fibers too)
- Extremely difficult against trios if they combine the above two and use them judiciously/intelligently.

My hell as a solo PW was me in a corner vs a Filia with a Cere-copter lockdown and Napalm Pillar for the occasions that I managed to escape.
 
Solo Filia here.

Just about everything hlvn says is as true for Filia as it is for Painwheel. I would also add that since the distance for ringlet spikes are fixed, I haven't found them to be overly useful anti-zoning tools (especially against a full-screen Peacock). As for spike xx gregor, that only works if they don't have projectiles on-screen at the time you spike, or else you run face first into one and your super's wasted. That and my reactions aren't good enough to hit confirm that spike before inputting the super, so I just avoid it altogether.

Since I main Filia I will of course think she's a good solo option, but with the matches I've been playing lately, I'm feeling the drawbacks of not having an assist. I also find it harder (and slower) to do an Updo with Filia on point. This is probably just my execution being bad, but having to DP takes a little more work than just hitting the buttons to call an assist. Thus a lot of things which an assist Filia can stuff on reaction ends up not getting punished when point Filia is running.

All this makes me think that while a solo character is still viable, we have to play harder and smarter than duos or trios in order to win our games. Mind you, I'm not exactly good at this game, so I don't know what higher levels of play is like..... but this is what things look like to me as a semi-beginner player.

As an end to this post, can you guys share how you get out of pressure situations against good duos / trios? I've been in matches where players would end their blockstrings with Cerecoptor, and while I'm blocking the coptor, they get to start another blockstring. This ends up happening the entire round until I guess wrong. Push-blocking doesn't seem to work so well for me, as they would call the assist when they are pushed too far away.... and then I'll have to block the coptor again while they get to run in and start their guessing game. Updo doesn't seem to work either, as they would be able to get a hit on me before I can get my updo out. Random gregor samson SOMETIMES work, but that's not really a solution to the problem. Any ideas?
 
Solos MUST learn how to Pushblock Guard Cancel, or they get locked down like it's Vanilla. It's a tactic that allows you to leave block stun and attack, so you can use it with a good reversal option (Fenrir, Updo) and have a chance to reversal in lock down situations. I feel like this was made mainly for solos, since teams have access to Alpha Counter.

As far as Filia is concerned, I feel like Spike is good enough because it can clear the screen of projectiles by absorbing them all, and can counter Peacock in the middle of setting one up and convert into Gregor. It's a tool that allows Filia to play on the ground and not be forced to escape to the air and try to approach, which is very easy to deal with as a Peacock player with the use of LP Shadow and J.HK and can easily lead to Peacock going for air-to-air with items behind her (really easy for me, at least).

In terms of easiest to hardest, it's trio, duo, solo. People may state that having an assist + more damage/health makes duos the easiest but I disagree. Duos still get one assist, so you get a point with lockdown or a point with a reversal, not both. Once you lose a character, you have a weak solo, vs losing a character on a trio means you still have a team; most trios are/should be sub-team, assist character or battery (for meter gain), sub-team.

Trios can have both, which is huge since it pretty much means all bases are covered for the first character (e.g. a good reversal + lock down assist for Bella effectively removes her defensive and offensive weaknesses). Even if you can't use the third, you can still just run it for the assist. And trios have a natural advantage over duos in terms of life, where having an extra character means you have more health, thus you are winning at the start of the match (check the leader prompt above the health bars).

What makes trios weak in comparison is when you lose a character, you lose what made you better than duo/solo but by then you should have gained meter and done damage with the first character. Also, from a player perspective, your third is a liability if you don't know how to use it and it gets snapped in, but this seems like an mvc2 thing where people would play their first two characters as a team and have a really good assist in the back that was never meant to see point play anyway.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
*pokes head into topic*
Don't play solo, it's bad for you.
*slowly peaces out*

@KhaosMuffins I've seen you say that several times before. Could you please explain your viewpoint as to why? Especially seeing you take top 8 at EVO using a solo character, it's strange that you of all people would advocate NOT going solo. Why is it so bad to play solo if you and Zidiane both made it so far playing it?

And yes, as I mentioned earlier, I still feel solos need to work harder than duos and trios to win. But I'm still interested in your reason as to why people shouldn't play solo...unless this is some reverse psychology thing and I just missed the joke entirely....
 
Money said:
@KhaosMuffins I've seen you say that several times before. Could you please explain your viewpoint as to why? Especially seeing you take top 8 at EVO using a solo character, it's strange that you of all people would advocate NOT going solo. Why is it so bad to play solo if you and Zidiane both made it so far playing it?

And yes, as I mentioned earlier, I still feel solos need to work harder than duos and trios to win. But I'm still interested in your reason as to why people shouldn't play solo...unless this is some reverse psychology thing and I just missed the joke entirely....
Well... few solo's are viable. And even then, there are situations where you need to work much harder than a team, and you need to be lucky sometimes. You need to be able to capitalize off of a single instant and avoid ending up in situations that you can't get out of (which is hard to do). There's also the lack of the pressure and lockdown and coverage. It's more risky. But play it right and it can work, imo.
 
@Money
Advantages:
More damage on hits
Simple

Disadvantages:
Less total health
No assists to help extend combos
No DHCs to help extend combos
None of the safety assists provide
None of the pressure assists provide

The only reason to play solo is if you have 1 character that you're much better with than any others, there are just too many disadvantages and
 
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solo requires a lot more luck imo. much harder to land that one hit you need
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Advantages:
More damage on hits
Simple

Disadvantages:
Less total health
No assists to help extend combos
No DHCs to help extend combos
None of the safety assists provide
None of the pressure assists provide

The only reason to play solo is if you have 1 character that you're much better with than any others, there are just too many disadvantages and
There are more advantages and disadvantages than that, though. Some of which I put in the OP as discussion topics. And some of those disadvantages aren't strictly negative.

No DHC or alpha counters/More meter (Cerebella's lvl3, for example, is much more accessible solo and completely changes the way you must approach her because it kills v3 assists almost instantly, and getting happy birthday'd with it means two dead characters basically)
Less health and no assists from safety/No risk of getting Happy Birthday'd or Double Snap'd for massive damage
No assist pressure/Does not become less potent as the match goes on

I think of them as tradeoffs, honestly.

Another advantage could be this:
Let's say your Cerebella has a bad time of dealing with Double, but an easy time of dealing with Parasoul. So it's Cerebella vs Double/Parasoul. You know if you can last long enough to get the hit on Double, Parasoul will be no trouble. This means, essentially, it's only Cerebella v Double+assist (if Parasoul is as easy to deal with as you think she is). And if their team is Parasoul/Double instead, than it's essentially Cerebella v Double.

However, if you had, say, Cerebella/Filia v Double/Parasoul, the game changes significantly. Assume your Filia has an easy time against Double but a hard time against Parasoul. Assuming things go the right way for you, you take down Double with Filia then switch to Cerebella to deal with Parasoul. However, you could also get Parasoul to wall your Filia, and then Double+assist along with Parasoul (bare minimum for chip damage) is left against your Cerebella.

You can get just as screwed playing a team as you can playing Solo, but there's less of a chance that the opponent has one character that can wall everyone you have. The best way to really play teams is by learning every character to their fullest and building custom teams for the opponent you're facing. You also need matchup info for every character against every character, and there are more things weighing on your mind through the match. The more things you think about while you play, the more likely the opponent is to slip something by you that you would have caught otherwise (you can only pay attention to so much).

Well... that's all my take. Have fun aggreing or disagreeing.
 
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if a single charcater gets stuck in the corner she might be fucked. she may have to guess on an unsafe reversal mash where a team can mash almost safely due to being able to dhc
 
Money said:
@KhaosMuffins I've seen you say that several times before. Could you please explain your viewpoint as to why? Especially seeing you take top 8 at EVO using a solo character, it's strange that you of all people would advocate NOT going solo. Why is it so bad to play solo if you and Zidiane both made it so far playing it?

And yes, as I mentioned earlier, I still feel solos need to work harder than duos and trios to win. But I'm still interested in your reason as to why people shouldn't play solo...unless this is some reverse psychology thing and I just missed the joke entirely....
Basically what everyone else has already said and...
Fortune (or any other character) with an assist > Fortune (or any other character) without an assist. This game is so momentum heavy that anything that will help you start or get out of pressure will take you very far. If you play solo, you either have to go balls out and hope that you land that one stray hit or play extremely defensively. It's just unnecessary work, really. Yeah, I got top 4 playing solo but... if only you guys saw the matches where I got backed up into a corner and could not do a thing (just watch my match vs Severin).
 
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DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
@Money
Advantages:
More damage on hits
Simple

Disadvantages:
Less total health
No assists to help extend combos
No DHCs to help extend combos
None of the safety assists provide
None of the pressure assists provide

The only reason to play solo is if you have 1 character that you're much better with than any others, there are just too many disadvantages and

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.
 
I keep trying to have this thread be about the option itself, not whether or not it's the superior option to another choice. But I guess it's whatever.
 
Zidiane said:
I keep trying to have this thread be about the option itself, not whether or not it's the superior option to another choice. But I guess it's whatever.
My bad. D: I just felt the need to stick my head in here for a sec.
 
KhaosMuffins said:
My bad. D: I just felt the need to stick my head in here for a sec.
It was gonna happen eventually. It happened on the last Skullheart too.
 
Solo is fun when you're in a match against another solo (as rare as that is), and if you start whupping a team really hard it feels great. Fortune's probably the best solo character due to her head, followed by Cerebella (at least in SDE, dunno about now with the damage nerfs) and then probably Filia.
 
Damage nerfs don't really affect anything with Cerebella. I haven't noticed it at all, one reset is still enough to kill a v2.
 
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Zidiane said:
Damage nerfs don't really affect anything with Cerebella. I haven't noticed it at all, one reset is still enough to kill a v2.
Or zero resets if you're fighting a big character.



:(
 
I like playing Solo Filia against worldjem's Peacock team. He doesn't use hornet bomber, so Filia can abuse Peacock's weaker angles and use the solo vs triple damage to erase her pretty easily if she gets in. I have an okay-ish success rate at doing that.

and then the rest of his team messes me up
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
@Money

The only reason to play solo is if you have 1 character that you're much better with than any others, there are just too many disadvantages and

Or if you only love one character. I like the whole cast, but my heart belongs to Carol.
 
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Shnarfl said:
I like playing Solo Filia against worldjem's Peacock team. He doesn't use hornet bomber, so Filia can abuse Peacock's weaker angles and use the solo vs triple damage to erase her pretty easily if she gets in. I have an okay-ish success rate at doing that.

and then the rest of his team messes me up

My victory moment is I killed his Peacock once...
 
mcpeanuts said:
Or zero resets if you're fighting a big character.

:(
Semantics... and it isn't only big characters.
 
A few things I haven't seen mentioned here yet:

= Your ToD combos are easier. Since you deal more damage, they die faster, meaning you won't have to finish a normal 1:1 ratio ToD combo before the duo or trio character dies. Also, some combos that are not ToD with 1:1 ratios become ToD when you are faced with duos and trios

= You are more resistant to ToD combos. Since you have more health, a trio will have to have a 300% combo to ToD you, not a 100% combo

Zidiane said:
I keep trying to have this thread be about the option itself, not whether or not it's the superior option to another choice. But I guess it's whatever.
Hmm... I'm not sure what you mean here. We're discussing the advantages and disadvantages of solo characters right now, which I assume is what this whole thing was about in the first place. Was there a different intended direction you wanted to take it?
 
Talk about solo characters and how great they are? The only way to talk about the option at all is to compare it to teams, it's inevitable. Only beginners are going to stick to solos at this point.
 
Solo Painwheel may be fun and all (for the innumerable reasons previously stated), but it often seems like of all the characters she has it worst when backed into a corner.
 
cody316 said:
Solo Painwheel may be fun and all (for the innumerable reasons previously stated), but it often seems like of all the characters she has it worst when backed into a corner.

I feel that Painwheel's one of the few viable solos, and really enjoy playing her solo more than I do on a team.

+ Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight
+ Throws/Buers give you a lot of invuln time if you latch on to their point
+ Very large multi-hit hitboxes; PW happy birthdays and assist stuffs can be ridiculous.
+ Flight Flight Flight Flight FlightFlight Flight Flight Flight
+ Ability to cancel any normal and move (8-way no less) is truly exceptional for assist dodging, baiting, and punishing.
+ Ability to HG charge certain normals to ignore hitstun/blockstun
+ Hatred Guard can provide unorthodox openings and force surprises/adjustments.
+ Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight Flight

- No meterless reversal. Cannot be understated.
- Painwheel meter generation is awful, and deathcrawl is pretty mediocre way to spend it. Hatred Install is hard to use without the DHC discount. Most of the time I feel like I shouldn't even spend meter unless it's on a happy birthday level-3.
 
Well I use solo to learn new characters. I figure if I learn their neutral game without assists, when I add more team members, I can only get better. But after playing for a little bit it seems pretty fair for some characters.

Firstly you do a lot more damage, so a simple mistake from your opponent leaves them bleeding. You save meter without dhc and alpha counters so you have more chances for a double snap combo. So while on paper it seems bad, or worse than teams, your opponents fear of getting tod may lead them to making mistakes.
 
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