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I don't understand the rationale behind "I wasn't blocking at neutral against their pointblank super, why should I have gotten hit"
It's a little different than that. If you're even on block, and you try and neutral/forward jump and block what they do, you get hit by reversal supers where you wouldn't by a DP. In this situation I'm safe and attempt to bait, but I get hit out of jump startup even though my very next action was "block".
Also, some of these supers aren't "Point Blank". You can be hit by Gregor Samson outside of Cerebella's c.lk range (which people complain about being too big).
Why is it okay to get hit by a 7f DP in this manner, but not an 8f super?
With supers, you have to be blocking before the active frames, with regular reversals you can block the frame of or the frame after the active frames (since regular reversals don't have hitstop, you are allowed to move away from them during their active frames).
And as Dime pointed out above, this change would kill stuff like SSJ autocorrect mixups.
I would personally be fine with 1 frame ambiguous crossup supers backed by safe DHC's that can also lead to combos being gone.
Just a beta experiment, guys. What about testing it before, and if we don't like, we take it out, instead of theorizing something we still don't know how it'll work?
Any experience is worth the try.
I would personally be fine with 1 frame ambiguous crossup supers backed by safe DHC's that can also lead to combos being gone.
Big Band's SSJ crossups are unsafe on block and require additional meter to make safe, afterwhich which you only have a small frame advantage. It also demands specific team composition. It's easy to say that you wouldn't mind tech going away if it's not tech YOU use, but I wouldn't like it one bit, especially if it's being sacrificed for a problem as minor as "I wasn't blocking their reversal".
You won't react to Updo's startup, so why should you be allowed to react to SSJ's? You say that the issue is that you're caught neutral/forward jumping during the superflash and you have no window to block, but the same thing can happen with any other special reversal in the game; they just don't have a superflash highlighting your mistake. If you think they are going to reversal, then wouldn't blocking a few frames earlier work just fine against specials and supers?
@Zidiane there are pre-jump frames you cant block during, a super just needs to be 4 frames or less to catch you so you'd still be caught in that situation.
You can only block after an active frame if that frame whiffed. You can block supers on the first active frame, it would still be before seeing the super flash beginning.
You guys are again wanting to block 1f attacks because you want to change direction during the super flash. The super flash is the first active frame for most. The super flash is cosmetic, the game is paused.
Maybe do super flashes like vsav so people can stop thinking they are blocking in time. Then probably read threads saying moves that fast should be slower tired of failed frame traps.
I liked it more when people couldn't reversal super out of anything. You could just counter-super. Now the whole metagame is all about reversals and baiting reversals, it's gotten more boring imo. I feel like im punished for playing correctly. I land a hit or a block string and i cant do anything besides bait reversals.
Not to be mean but this means you don't actually know how to play this game correctly.
Just a beta experiment, guys. What about testing it before, and if we don't like, we take it out, instead of theorizing something we still don't know how it'll work?
Any experience is worth the try.
Because we already tested this exact change in the beta before Big Bands release and it didnt stick.
So Zidiane hit the nail on some of the things I wanted to post about, but there's a couple more things I want to address.
Why is it okay to get hit by a 7f DP in this manner, but not an 8f super?
The fastest updo is an 8-frame startup, and Updo is an EXCEPTIONALLY FAST DP and honestly is a poor example of comparing DP startup to a super. It's similar to saying all DP's in this game are Horizontal because that's how Peacock (and I guess Eliza's) DP operate.
Devil Horns have 17 frames of startup, MP Bang has 20, Napalm Pillar is 17, Fiber (HK) has 15, All versions of Hornet Bomber are 17, Squigly's DP (lol) is 16. Being able to react to some of these isn't out of the question, especially since we're only given a 13 frame window to tech a throw (iirc it's 19 or 20 if you count startup). I remember mike mentioning during EVO 2013 commentary and SCR 2014 commentary that he was dissapointed in people's ability to tech throws, so unless something's changed since then we "should" be able to react to these. c Let's compare this to some of the common reversal supers in this game, only counting pre-flash startup since it's what you can react to. Supersonic Jazz has a 2 frame startup, Diamond Dynamo has 6 frames of startup, Gregor is 4, and both versions of Catscratch Fever have 4. Even Death crawl gives you 6 frames to react to. The startup difference between these is HUGE. Supers also have way more forgiving hitboxes (Gregor hits surpsiingly high)
Truth be told? I agree that in general it isn't elegant nor does it make sense to have reversal supers be blockable post flash. However, in the context of Skullgirls I (and many others) feel that this is a COMPLETELY seperate case due to the reset based nature of the game. There is a huge momentum shift that doesn't feel good to play: it makes you feel uncomfortable on the advantageous/offense position. While there should be some respect, I feel that this is a little too much. This is an extreme/offbeat example, but it's sort of like how you can be in a very advantageous position in Marvel 3 despite being behind because of how X-factor works.
Like Uzu mentioned earlier, we don't want to remove all defensive options because there is some incredibly nasty offense in this game. I think supers are still a good reversal options with blocking post flash. In fact, I would love to test the PBGC > super change that skarmand brought up earlier.
On the subject of elegance, we already have enough specific interactions in this game that make it not all that elegant at first. If anything standardizing supers to be this way would make it slightly more elegant than they are now, especially since air gregor and feral edge are blockable post flash while other supers aren't. There's also the whole SBO fiasco.
Nah supers are literally only unblockable post flash if youre right up at point blank range.
Like Dekillsage mentioned earlier, You can get hit by most of these even if you aren't at point blank range. I'm sure I've had it happen in my streams several times and I'll look up some footage tomorrow and update this post.
Can we go more than a few months without changing a fundamental game mechanic, or more specifically without regressing said mechanic to a point in time where people wanted it changed to how it is now?
The game isn't finished yet. I would much, much rather we give things a shot while we know for sure things can be changed. Playerbase changes, game changes, meta changes, so it isn't unnatural if a community consensus on a mechanic changes (the vocal participants also fluctuate).
Because we already tested this exact change in the beta before Big Bands release and it didnt stick.
I dont know why it would change this time around.
I could see mike shooting down putting it back on the beta simply because he got the data he felt he needed las time, but I think that putting it back up and then comparing our thoughts back to the first time this was an experiment to now might be interesting and give us a more clear idea of where to take the game.
Also from what I remember in the old thread, there was a lot of support for the change from higher level players (minus I think Guitalex and Mike).
My frame data was taken from the SRK wiki, which I've been told might be out of date/inaccurate, but last I heard pizzarino was all over the wiki trying to make sure everything was correct. Let me know if something is wrong.
My frame data was taken from the SRK wiki, which I've been told might be out of date/inaccurate, but last I heard pizzarino was all over the wiki trying to make sure everything was correct. Let me know if something is wrong.
I've personally noticed things on the Wiki that were out of date, but I didn't know how to edit it. I always fact check everything I see up there.
So what? You guys think the super flash is supposed to be a QTE?
DBZ games so fun, though. It was even better when we had counter supers, it was like teleporting behind the guy who ported behind you who ported behind him who ported behind you who ported behind him and then decking him in the shnoz. And I love strafing lazily to the left to dodge Kamehameha's.
I've personally noticed things on the Wiki that were out of date, but I didn't know how to edit it. I always fact check everything I see up there.
The only thing it seems to be missing is fukua/eliza's stuff, but other then that I believe mike confirmed that pizzarino's data was correct. I'll see if I can find the post though.
The only thing it seems to be missing is fukua/eliza's stuff, but other then that I believe mike confirmed that pizzarino's data was correct. I'll see if I can find the post though.
Cerebella's s.lk isn't 17 frames, though. And I doubt her j.hp has 7 frame startup. There's also the fact that all of Cerebella's command grabs have randomly varying startup frames according to the frame display (sometimes MGR is 10 frames, sometimes it's 12), but that's a different thing all together.
Cerebella's s.lk isn't 17 frames, though. And I doubt her j.hp has 7 frame startup. There's also the fact that all of Cerebella's command grabs have randomly varying startup frames according to the frame display (sometimes MGR is 10 frames, sometimes it's 12), but that's a different thing all together.
The MGR thing is you hitting the LK and LP buttons a couple frames apart and the resulting kara cancel time gets added to the startup
Cerebella's s.lk isn't 17 frames, though. And I doubt her j.hp has 7 frame startup. There's also the fact that all of Cerebella's command grabs have randomly varying startup frames according to the frame display (sometimes MGR is 10 frames, sometimes it's 12), but that's a different thing all together.
The way pizza does the data is weird cause there is no explanation but moves like:
7 (25) 8
Or some such as in cerebellas j.hp case, means that its 7 frames of startup to start gliding then 25 frames of glide, then another 8 frames of startup after glide for a total of 15 frames of startup if you didnt glide at all.
I only know this because thats how painwheels hatred guard moves work as well.
Pws j.hp is something like 2 (30) 21
Which means 2 frames of startup before armor goes active, then 30 frames of armor, then an additional 21 frames of startup...
This is inaccurate on my part as I'm just plucking these numbers out of thin air and the armor has most likely changed now that the armor frames have been changed to be active all the way into the first active frame.
For those comparing blocking a Pillar, MPBang or HK Drillationship etc which has no flash to Big Banks 2F SSJ:
Meterless reversals very rarely hit as a non counter hit. Either you block them or they counter hit you (As a reversal should.)
People get hit by SSJ as a non CH more than as an actual reversal.
It's such a risk to let go of block a split second and try and approach or keep pressure even with staggered hits against people with meter. In 2-4F when you go for that jump, walk forwards, backdash etc you might get hit with a super. And it's actually a pretty good option to try and catch them just moving or doing anything but block, because everyone has two meters to safe DHC anyways.
And no the super flash is not a QTE to press block. The flash is really damn long you can't fuck it up and that's not the point of it at all. It's just like every other reversal in other FG's(?),
Cinematic pause > If they aren't doing shit they block > If it was a clean reversal and a good read they get counter hit.
(Minus the counter super in games where it applies.)
Also it's a beta experiment, Mike says he wants to change the game a lot before Robo because he wants it to playable and fun for years to come without needing changes.
Lots of higher level players are fed up with the game and think it's silly and the biggest complaint is the supers.
The best overall option in my mind is to do it on a case by case basis.
I like BB having ssj do what it does because it kills much of the absolutely mindless offense that is in the game. Yes i said mindless. Offense in this game is crazy good so there should be some crazy good defense mechanics inherent as well. If every character had good non metered reversals then there would be no point being made... But not every character does. And some, such as painwheel DONT have good reversals at all.... Even deathcrawl isnt invincible to throws and thats on top of also having the wackest hitbox of any attack invincible move in the game... It literally misses 95% of the time because characters are above her head. And unlike peacock who can zone to make sure that her reversal is spaced right... Pw cant even do that... Adequately.
Then add on the fact that its got terrible range and yeah its a rather serious problem to take away hitstop from the super when it REALLY needs it.
In the end i just want:
You are attacking and i super? Your moves are locked out or whatever and i hit you. You arent attacking but you were in a neutral state? You get to block, or counter super i guess. As long as YOU CANT COUNTER SUPER IF YOU HAD AN OUTSTRETCHED ATTACK. One of the things that annoys me to no end is people countering my reversal non hitstop super that SHOULD have hit.
Perfect example is double at fullscreen, we shoot stuff, i counter super and guess right, double is stuck in her gun animation.... But NO, double can reactively counter super. So i cant just ssj through the gunshot.
None of these are deal breakers of course but they do make me facepalm.
The best overall option in my mind is to do it on a case by case basis.
I like BB having ssj do what it does because it kills much of the absolutely mindless offense that is in the game. Yes i said mindless. Offense in this game is crazy good so there should be some crazy good defense mechanics inherent as well.
-PW Deathcrawl things-
Well yeah but you should be using a reversal to stop a reset and reversal a move for a counter. Not reversal someone just trying to move.
It would still be fine on defense and stop all the really scary mixups. Just less silly.
Also fwiw I think Deathcrawl is a fine reversal, I use it all the time into a safe DHC.
This change doesn't touch Hitstop though so I don't know what you're on about there. You just have to 'reversal' a move instead of someone walking or jumping, or else they get to block so you DHC into Catheads.
Don't forget it hits you when you're at a neutral position too. Question though, would hitstop supers hit you out of prejump? I feel they should but I don't know
Don't forget it hits you when you're at a neutral position too. Question though, would hitstop supers hit you out of prejump? I feel they should but I don't know
I feel like if you tried to 'reversal' in a situation where they are jumping that probably wasn't a good read for the person who popped their super? Maybe I'm missing some Yomi layers there.
Most times people are jumping and not up back it's because they're trying to get above you for positioning while they have the momentum since the air is where you wanna be. So I don't know if that deserves to be punished or not.
Supers beat a lot of shit though so I would be fine with them not working on jump startup. Also as it stands preblock cancels jump startup so it would probably let you block unless there was an exception.
I guess for the first round I would vote let me block during prejump because that's how everything else works.
The best overall option in my mind is to do it on a case by case basis.
I like BB having ssj do what it does because it kills much of the absolutely mindless offense that is in the game. Yes i said mindless. Offense in this game is crazy good so there should be some crazy good defense mechanics inherent as well. If every character had good non metered reversals then there would be no point being made... But not every character does. And some, such as painwheel DONT have good reversals at all.... Even deathcrawl isnt invincible to throws and thats on top of also having the wackest hitbox of any attack invincible move in the game... It literally misses 95% of the time because characters are above her head. And unlike peacock who can zone to make sure that her reversal is spaced right... Pw cant even do that... Adequately.
SSJ should hit people doing janky unsafe block strings, going for bad reversals, or doing an IAD or airdash attack right at your face, because they were being careless in their offense. SSJ should not hit somebody that was jumping forward and blocking, which is the problem here.
Furthermore, I don't at all think that making supers blockable post flash would hurt Big Band's that know when they actually should be doing SSJ as a reversal.
Knowing that the opponent CAN reversal like this AND hit you besides you hitting nothing forces the player to respect reversals for dumb reasons, and give up their offensive momentum for no real reason other than "my opponent can do a thing".
Its a pretty glaring flaw on a game that's otherwise exceptionally well made. Skullgirls is a really honest game that actually rewards footsies/reads, and this issue is kind of the one thing that's in contrast to that. In general I hate the term "mashing" because most people deserve to get hit by reversals for dropping combos, doing bad careless offense, or doing stupid obvious resets, which is where 90% of the bitching about mashing comes from, but this is the one case where you can say "mashing" and be justified because the way it works currently is really silly.
I feel like if you tried to 'reversal' in a situation where they are jumping that probably wasn't a good read for the person who popped their super? Maybe I'm missing some Yomi layers there.
Most times people are jumping and not up back it's because they're trying to get above you for positioning while they have the momentum since the air is where you wanna be. So I don't know if that deserves to be punished or not.
Supers beat a lot of shit though so I would be fine with them not working on jump startup. Also as it stands preblock cancels jump startup so it would probably let you block unless there was an exception.
I guess for the first round I would vote let me block during prejump because that's how everything else works.
I count jump back and neutral jump as none offensive jumps. If someone jumps forward they should be hit imo
Also I swear preblock canceling jump never actually happens you always get hit anyways.
Knowing that the opponent CAN reversal like this AND hit you besides you hitting nothing forces the player to respect reversals for dumb reasons, and give up their offensive momentum for no real reason other than "my opponent can do a thing".
Sounds like you have a problem with reversals in general, and not just hitstop. It's not like this change would stop you from having to respect every NON-SUPER reversal in the game that requires you to... be blocking during a jump. Again, if this is only a problem that occurs because you started blocking too late, then block earlier on their wakeup next time and don't assume that they'll always use a meterless reversal.
Also I swear preblock canceling jump never actually happens you always get hit anyways.
But that's the reason why 2LK hits up back :P
Jump startup
2LK Starts
Jump startup canceled into block from 2LK's startup frames
Player is still holding back but up is ignored now
Becomes standing block
2LK hits low against standing block
"A-Ah!! Ohh!!~"
I brought this up to Mike at Evo 2013. Lenny Showstopper being unjumpable, for example, was brought up very early. Good luck getting it patched.
i played against girlystyle a long while ago now and he did this to me....
fullscreen double swag car (backwards version) > USS. a full screen 360 that is completely unjumpable even if you are holding up after the first super. if you are on the ground during the freeze, it WILL get you.
Not that I'm suggesting it either way, though not like I'm not suggesting it either, but with bomber being such a good assist as it is, would be a good workaround to make it a true blockstring so that upbacking the last hit doesnt get people opened up for free? As it is hornet bomber lockdown mixups are extremely ridiculous to block cause of this feature and yet, you cant reversal through the gap because you will get a pushblock instead.
Unless your super was with kicks... Like gregor.
Or if not a true blockstring, then maybe doing a metered punch reversal with lp and hp causes no pushblock. Pushblock only comes from lp and mp or mp and hp...
Idk just random thoughts but i hate getting opened by hornet bomber when I'm trying to block forward>Back>downback>back
But get an upback on accident. It is sloppy inputs, but when trying to block all kinds of directions its an easy mistake to make and i personally find it frustrating.
Sounds like you have a problem with reversals in general, and not just hitstop. It's not like this change would stop you from having to respect every NON-SUPER reversal in the game that requires you to... be blocking during a jump. Again, if this is only a problem that occurs because you started blocking too late, then block earlier on their wakeup next time and don't assume that they'll always use a meterless reversal.
That's not the case at all. Please look at the other stuff I said in my post. In general I'd actually agree with you, like I said most bitching about reversals/mashing in Skullgirls comes from people that have an absolute refusal to block or bait things on wakeup. Its not like Street Fighter 4 where reversals are basically non committal if you have meter, in Skullgirls if your opponent knows you're going to reversal they can block/bait it and punish you. That being said there are situations in this game where you can't block supers at all when you should be able too, and many players feel its an issue, which is why this thread exists.
For technical reasons I'm not sure an elegant solution exists, but I'd really like to see what @Skarmand suggested in the OP as a beta experiment.
Its a pretty glaring flaw on a game that's otherwise exceptionally well made. Skullgirls is a really honest game that actually rewards footsies/reads, and this issue is kind of the one thing that's in contrast to that.
How on earth is making the vortex game stronger and reducing the amount of time spent in neutral going to make Skullgirls reward footies more?!?!?! That's like saying Vanilla rewards footsies more than Encore...
Let me try and summarize my thoughts, there is a tl;dr at the bottom if that's your thing.
When I read this thread, I see contrasting opinions on what supers are supposed to accomplish. Do we want them to be OFFENSIVE, with super cool crossunder + hitstop setups and consistent neutral game threats, or do we want them to be DEFENSIVE, where they're mainly for reversals, utility, and good combo enders?
The people I see wanting hitstop to stay value it's unique offensive power and are quite vocal about it. People say, "If you didn't block the right way when I did a hitstop reset, how should that be any different than a Filia slide xx Updo crossunder?"
And you know what? You're absolutely correct. That MAKES SENSE. Hitstop is not a move's start-up, it's just a cinematic effect to make the game look pretty as the move becomes active. When hitstop has locked the game, the move is already active. Offensively, being unable to block this makes complete sense.
The problem is when you look at the game DEFENSIVELY. The fact is, supers are almost always used defensively in Skullgirls because they are the single best way to deal with the otherwise insane offense. Most supers are powerful, invincible moves with good range and fast, usually invincible start-up. That sounds like a great reversal! That range and invincibility makes moves like SSJ, Dynamo, and Fenrir or Gregor great reversals.
However, let's look at this.
That is how far SSJ hits through hitstop. Where Filia's hand is, about a block and a half from Big Band. If she is neutral here, she can not block a SSJ.
Opinion time!: This is way to fucking large. Don't try to defend it. When I approach you I should NOT have to expect to block any 2 frames from now. Having what is essentially a 2 frame invincible titan knuckle that does 4k and is UNREACTABLE (in case two frames didn't make it obvious) is absurd. It's a completely absurd amount of OFFENSIVE pressure from a super that was designed to be used DEFENSIVELY as a reversal and combo finisher.
I know SSJ is an extreme case, but that doesn't mean we should underestimate Dynamo, Scalpels, Cat Scratch Fever, etc.
And so, the question the Skullgirls community need to answer for itself is whether the game is more balanced around supers being OFFENSIVE or DEFENSIVE. You can decide for yourself what you want, but I'm leaning towards toning down offensive supers some more.
Judging by history (Sing xx SBO is always blockable, Air Gregor and Feral Edge blockable during flash), the community does not want oppressively offensive supers. It's not fun. It's not interesting. Because let's face it, using SSJ at this range/old sing>SBO was not a calculated decision by me to catch you out for doing something stupid. It's me KNOWING that if you are doing ANYTHING that is not holding back I will hit you and it will hurt a lot. Big Band or Bella coming in with 2 or 3 invincible, long range jabs that will beat all my options is not interesting to play against.
This is what makes people gripe about safe DHC's. The DHC's in and of themselves are not a toxic strategy by any means. You base a team around it, you use two meter to keep yourself safe, that's fair. HOWEVER, being able to safely gamble for very high reward and very low risk at this kind of range? Forcing me to respect it every second you're mid range of me? Makes no sense, that is not balanced gameplay where I can counter your strategy. You are allowed to use a 2 frame invincible move that beats everything that's not blocking at THIS range? That should NEVER be safe. That is just too much safe pressure. I can't start a decent offense because I have to sit around and bait you for as long as you have 2 meter.
I have a problem with the RANGE hitstop has. I'm complaining about RANGE, specifically the ranges at which I cannot block or respond to some supers during hitstop. I am going to finally say it clearly, I am completely against the removal of hitstop/allowing blocking during super flash. Frankly, hitstop has served the game well. It did what it meant to: stopped unreasonable countersupers and DHC wars. Cross + Hitstop resets are cool things that should be encouraged, and if you use a super to escape pressure you should always be guaranteed that your opponent will not be able to counter super you. Hitstop guarantees these things. However, I DO think supers (some more than others... lookin' at you SSJ) need serious revision to tone down their power in lieu of hitstop.
Essentially, my proposition is that the insanely large "first frame" hitstop gives problem supers needs to be brought down to a more reasonable size. Their offensive power needs to be reduced, but we don't want them to lose their power as a reversal if someone is pressuring you. Therefore, each character has a horizontal "hitstop box": if you are close enough to them on the X axis when they super, hitstop applies normally. If you are outside of this "box", there is no hitstop and you can counter super/block/whatever action you want. This "box" would need to be specific for each individual super or character. As such, hitstop should function in the following way:
Cerebella is under heavy pressure from Filia. Bella senses an attack coming and mashes out a Dynamo. Sure enough, that dastardly Filia is in the middle of IAD j.HK! Because Filia is close to Bella and in her "hitstop box", hitstop works as normal and Filia has no chance to counter super, or take any action for that matter. Filia is hit by Dynamo.
Cerebella and Filia are putting in some hard neutral game work. The two stare at each other and Bella, sensing an imminent air dash, uses a max range Dynamo. Filia did not air dash, however, she was standing still and waiting to see what Bella would do. If this were October 10th, 2014 in the Eliza patch, Filia would get smacked since she cannot block from neutral out of hitstop. However, since this is the 2015 Beamsprouts Balance patch, she knows she's not in Bella's "hitstop box" and is able to simply block the random, max range Dynamo.
Double is at Titan Knuckle range and plans to Fugazi the heck out of Big Band. He uses SSJ from that same range. Double is way outside Big Band's "hitstop box" so she cancels the s.HP windup into Swag Wagon and wins the trade. Too bad, too! If Big Band had gotten closer first, Double would have been in his "hitstop box". She would have been forced to either block SSJ or get hit by it, and Big Band could have DHC'd safely.
Filia is comboing the heck out of Painwheel, but knows she cannot kill. Thinking quickly, Filia uses her launcher on Painwheel and cancels into HK Hairball. Once she has crossed under Painwheel she cancels into Fenrir Drive. Painwheel is, horizontally, very close to Filia and therefore inside the "hitstop box". Unfortunately, Painwheel is not blocking the crossunder so, when Fenrir activates, hitstop applies normally and Painwheel is hit.
For the record, regardless of this change I think the "first active frame" of SSJ is way too large. I just want that to be a little smaller.
It's a little inelegant, and the concept needs some fine tuning, but this is the only way I've been able to think about balancing the unfair and unique offensive advantage hitstop can offer without completely removing it, while also keeping supers as powerful and reliable reversals. I think the application of a hitstop system like or similar to this would more or less make everyone happy. People would still be able to do hitstop reset setups, they would all function the same as reversals/counter hits, but when you are midscreen/footsies range they would be far less oppressive for your opponent.
tl;dr
Max range supers with hitstop are dumb.
SSJ is the dumbest, just look at that image, if 2 frames from that moment Filia is not blocking she will get hit.
Problem supers are not a problem because of hitstop, it's because of the range their first frame has.
Max range supers should not have hitstop and should leave room for counter play.
Close range reversal supers should always have hitstop to prevent countersupers/reversal shenanigans.
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