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This again? Blocking Supers Post Flash [Poll]

Block post flash as a beta change again?

  • YES

    Votes: 58 60.4%

  • NO

    Votes: 38 39.6%

  • YES, BUT... (Select Yes, but include a response) [DON'T CHOOSE THIS OPTION]

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    96
Dynamo or Gregor in their current states are really nothing like SSJ, which is pretty much the only super in the game (level 1s anyway) that is still freeze-unblockable out at long sweep ranges (edit: ground scalpels is close).
 
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I feel like after having thought about it that pretty much everything is fine. Dynamo and gregor do hit me at neutral, but nothing will change that cause i cant see their unblockable range being reduced.

As far as BB ssj goes, i feel like thats a character specific thing and that he deserves it because of his special, susceptible to fuzzy guard mixups all day, feature, which is compounded by doing the fuzzy guards behind lockdown assist cover. He should have something to kill the ranged offense that people put him through.

Then maybe im wrong. But i do like my mashed ssj especially since its such a contrast to what I'm used to as painwheel which is not having any kind of ground mashable to get you out stuff (deathcrawl will fail against good opponents 90% of the time becaus good opponents wont attack painwheel from the ground nearly as from the air via crossups and the like) but if ssj gets toned down, so be it i guess. Just let the flowcharts flow and people can have their spammy offense behind hornet bomber with few repercussions... I guess thats the game people want to be played. I'm kinda meh on that, but ive acclimated to whatever changes sg has gone through.
 
I think if SSJ is supposed to be a special case for BB that gives him a unique style, it'd be pretty cool if Mike just took the super freeze off of that super, and only that super, so people could get a better intuition for how fast it actually is so they know damn well they need to be buffering block the whole time they're in a few character widths of the guy.
 
Beamsprouts said:
  • Cerebella and Filia are putting in some hard neutral game work. The two stare at each other and Bella, sensing an imminent air dash, uses a max range Dynamo. Filia did not air dash, however, she was standing still and waiting to see what Bella would do. If this were October 10th, 2014 in the Eliza patch, Filia would get smacked since she cannot block from neutral out of hitstop. However, since this is the 2015 Beamsprouts Balance patch, she knows she's not in Bella's "hitstop box" and is able to simply block the random, max range Dynamo.
WTF, why is Filia not holding down-back in a staredown? She totally deserved that one.

Also, get hit by SSJ, eat 4K. Get hit by a normal poke that you wouldn't be able to react to out of startup anyways, eat 8K or 5K into a reset game. Not seeing the problem with Band choosing to make a high-risk low-reward read.

The place I've seen the hitstop come into play most is when the person mashing the super is on defense; either stuffing a jump-in early before the player doing the jump in moved the stick to back, even if they hadn't touched a button yet, or killing something like assist call -> dash in. If you don't need that invincibility, you might as well just poke for several thousand extra damage on hit, no meter spent, and better safety on block.
 
Cynical said:
WTF, why is Filia not holding down-back in a staredown? She totally deserved that one.

This is the only scenario I disagree with, although I think the idea is that he is out of Dyanmo's range (re: not point-blankish with his proposed changes) and therefore can act.

Other then that tidbit, I think everything Beamsprouts says makes sense.
 
I think hitstop the way it is is fine, but I think you should be able to block out of forward dash for Squigly's level 2 sing > Opera since you can block from forward dash anyway.
 
I voted yes, this made the game more frustrating and less enjoyable for me to be quite honest.

I mean.... Do supers even need this? I feel like they were good enough already for the various other options they provide.
 
Cynical said:
WTF, why is Filia not holding down-back in a staredown? She totally deserved that one.

Nice observation! You'll notice that this is a completely made up scenario that may or may not happen and is meant to demonstrate how you would be able to block in it. The scenario itself does not matter. The point is: she is neutral at more or less max range, she can block. She was not doing anything punishable, and she was not at a range that makes it reasonable to expect to be hit by a reversal.

Cynical said:
Also, get hit by SSJ, eat 4K ... Not seeing the problem with Band choosing to make a high-risk low-reward read.

Don't act like 3.8k damage, in addition to a positional advantage by putting the opponent fullscreen where Big Band can use his long range tools, isn't a good reward. Also note that Dynamo is also very unsafe on block, and it was nerfed because "safe DHC's made it too strong because it has lots of range and is safe". How is Big Band second, using a super with twice the threat range as Dynamo, any different?

Cynical said:
Get hit by a normal poke that you wouldn't be able to react to out of startup anyways, eat 8K or 5K into a reset game.

Please tell me which poke tools in this game have utility comparable to an invincible, good ranged super and reward me with 8k on hit as well as being safe. I'll start playing that character.

Cynical said:
The place I've seen the hitstop come into play most is when the person mashing the super is on defense; either stuffing a jump-in early before the player doing the jump in moved the stick to back, even if they hadn't touched a button yet, or killing something like assist call -> dash in. If you don't need that invincibility, you might as well just poke for several thousand extra damage on hit, no meter spent, and better safety on block.

Again, I'm not sure how a scenario where you want to use an invincible super to deny aggression is comparable to a situation where you feel safe using a poke. When I see your Lock n' Load come out I'm sure as HELL not going to go for a poke.
 
Beamsprouts said:
Also note that Dynamo is also very unsafe on block, and it was nerfed because "safe DHC's made it too strong because it has lots of range and is safe". How is Big Band second, using a super with twice the threat range as Dynamo, any different?

I guess we really can't go a single thread without comparing one character to an entirely different character and demanding changes based on their differences. Big Band is not Cerebella.

How come Filia can't have armored moves like Big Band? It's not fair how Big Band is allowed to have FIVE different armored moves AND an invincible reversal and Filia has NO armored moves!
 
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Beamsprouts said:
Nice observation! You'll notice that this is a completely made up scenario that may or may not happen and is meant to demonstrate how you would be able to block in it. The scenario itself does not matter. The point is: she is neutral at more or less max range, she can block. She was not doing anything punishable, and she was not at a range that makes it reasonable to expect to be hit by a reversal.
Maybe she should change her expectations if she wasn't expecting to get hit by a super.

Don't act like 3.8k damage, in addition to a positional advantage by putting the opponent fullscreen where Big Band can use his long range tools, isn't a good reward. Also note that Dynamo is also very unsafe on block, and it was nerfed because "safe DHC's made it too strong because it has lots of range and is safe". How is Big Band second, using a super with twice the threat range as Dynamo, any different?



Please tell me which poke tools in this game have utility comparable to an invincible, good ranged super and reward me with 8k on hit as well as being safe. I'll start playing that character.
An opponent dashing at Band at midrange can be stuffed with c.hp. You can't react to the startup of that move (20f is faster than you can recognize a move at all, much less move the stick in the opposite direction), it has good range, and it leads to a lot more than 3.8k on hit.

Again, I'm not sure how a scenario where you want to use an invincible super to deny aggression is comparable to a situation where you feel safe using a poke. When I see your Lock n' Load come out I'm sure as HELL not going to go for a poke.
A situation where your opponent is in a "forced block or reversal" is exactly the kind of situation we DON'T want to make more favorable to the attacker. SG's offense is good enough kthx.
 
2f move that you must block at half screen IS nuts... But if it gets blocked, big band dies. Blocking against big band is really strong. Just tread SSJ like heaps of other shit that big band has where if it whiffs or is blocked, he dies. If you're paranoid of SSJ and want to attack SSJ safely, then get into in position to make him block an assist THEN go in or bait pbgc things.

I mean honestly, if you've played Big Band even once, an are even half-thinking while playing Big Band then you should KNOW that doing lots of Big Band's large good shit is actually risky as all fuck, and raw SSJ without a read or a reaction is the stupidest possible thing you can do. You are doing a raw, completely heavy counterhit punishable super at neutral.

3.8k damage + fullscreen position for a meter... and possible HK Giant step followup into another SSJ for another meter. compared to at least 10k for a decent heavy counter hit combo solo, and ~11.2k for a decent DHC. Taking random pokes into account or big band coming in with red health, big band dies. Or, you could reset big band if he has done full health SSJ for some suicidal reason. Big Band gets blocked, Big Band gets dead.

Y'all complainers about hitstop on supers just need to git gud.
 
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Flotilla said:
I guess we really can't go a single thread without comparing one character to an entirely different character and demanding changes based on their differences. Big Band is not Cerebella.

I do not buy the argument that "Big Band is low tier so you're not allowed to nerf something powerful he does", which I believe is what you're implying. You're saying that Big Band is all around worse than Cerebella, or at least needs this kind of super power to stay relevant and Bella doesn't, and therefore should keep a more powerful super reach.
I'm a Big Band player, too. I would not be saying this if I didn't think people getting hit by some of my SSJ's was not my skill, but an enourmous "first frame". I do not think me being able to guess "you're going to jump now" is a valid reason to get hit by something that's two frames. A Train and "they wouldn't be blocking your reversal!" do not apply, since neither of those things are 2 frames or have as large a "first frame" reach.
I do not think Big Band is overpowered. I think he has an inelegant super that feels bad to all parties involved with some of the hits it gets.

Cynical said:
Maybe she should change her expectations if she wasn't expecting to get hit by a super.

Did you miss the part where I explained it was a totally made up scenario? THE POINT IS: someone is at neutral at a range that is unreasonable to expect to be "reversal'd". You're right, she is not expecting to get supered, but I don't think that it's fair for people to be more than about half a square on the grid and think "I have to constantly expect to block something unreactable that beats all my options". If she is up close and personal, it's perfectly fair for her to get hit. When she is only 1 pixel in range, it's absurd and defies common sense that, "this has no travel time, you're getting hit".

I don't really think that hitstop as it is now is unhealthy for balance. But I do think it consistently defies common sense about where you can expect to be hit, and feels bad to play as or against. Note that my proposed change would actually keep most supers pretty close to what they are now. I'm not proposing we make the "first frame" jab range on every character, just tone down the very edges where you sincerely feel like you should NOT have been in range. There would literally only be a one or two frame difference between retail and what I'm proposing.

Cynical said:
An opponent dashing at Band at midrange can be stuffed with c.hp. You can't react to the startup of that move (20f is faster than you can recognize a move at all, much less move the stick in the opposite direction), it has good range, and it leads to a lot more than 3.8k on hit.

Dying over here. 20 frames is not unreactable and good players do not hold forward for 20 frames in neutral unless it's fullscreen. Fuck Parasoul's unreactable 20 frame f.LP overhead! Mike you gotta nerf this shit I can't believe it it's literally unblockable

People jump/dash/whatever and it takes at least a few frames to move your stick or finger back afterwards. 20 frames cannot punish that. 2 frames can.

Cynical said:
A situation where your opponent is in a "forced block or reversal" is exactly the kind of situation we DON'T want to make more favorable to the attacker. SG's offense is good enough kthx.

Up close I totally agree with you. If you call Pillar right next to me I want to be able to punish you. I like Skarmand's idea that PBGC will always provide hitstop for this reason. But, when I call out Bomber or Lock n' Load and don't feel comfortable even moving forward because I know I'm at max range of SSJ hitstop and that could get me hit, I think that's an oppressive defense.


yo clarence I feel it I feel it
 
Beamsprouts said:
Dying over here. 20 frames is not unreactable
http://labzerogames.com/iheartteyah/MilliaBlocker_v0.3.swf

Oh, BTW, Skullgirls has frameskip, GGXX doesn't, so Skullgirls 20 frames is equivalent to 17 frames in that test. You're not reacting to that.
Fuck Parasoul's unreactable 20 frame f.LP overhead! Mike you gotta nerf this shit I can't believe it it's literally unblockable
Parasouls 6lp isn't blocked on reaction; you're able to block it because there's other signs that she's doing it than the animation (the timing is a bit different than on her lows, the spacing is closer and you're subconsciously taking that into account when you see her dash forward and then there's a pause, etc).
 
Beamsprouts said:
I do not buy the argument that "Big Band is low tier so you're not allowed to nerf something powerful he does"

Wow, what? Don't put words in my mouth, dude. I said Big Band is not Cerebella, and that is true.

Big Band is a character that is designed to have good reversals and moves with very large coverage. Bella is not, she's a grappler with a fundamentally different moveset and gameplan. As such, Mike may have thought it detrimental to the integrity of her gameplan that Dynamo be as powerful a reversal super that it is. On the other hand, SSJ is *MADE* to be a powerful reversal, likely compensation for the fact that BB can otherwise be instant overheaded by any other character in the game. Not even Beat Extend reliably prevents this, since its invuln ends on the frames where the tambourine is still on the ground and not in the air. This is not a problem that Cerebella has to deal with.

Again, comparing one character to another character when examining Skullgirls' balance is dumb because no two characters in Skullgirls share the exact same gameplan, strengths, or weaknesses.

Cynical said:
Millia blocker

As Millia Blocker itself says, "this is not a reaction test". It gauges the average amount of frames it takes for you to react to a specific set of stimuli (Millia's overheads) in a pool of several other "incorrect" stimuli (Millia's not-overheads). Raw reaction and reacting to one of multiple different things are not the same.

A 20 frame startup move is very much reactable in either case, but it becomes trivial if you have no other options to worry about.
 
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Flotilla said:
Don't put words in my mouth, dude. I said Big Band is not Cerebella, and that is true.
You know what yeah, that was unreasonable of me. Sorry, man. I should have taken that out.
The second thing I said I feel like is still relevant, "You're saying that Big Band is all around worse than Cerebella, or at least needs this kind of super power to stay relevant and Bella doesn't, and therefore should keep a more powerful super reach."

What you're saying about SSJ being MADE to be a powerful and intimidating reversal is true. Again, I'm not saying it's range should be nerfed to Dynamo range or something. But it's max range, currently, is far from instant overhead height (Parsoul forward jump j.lp takes reactable travel time before hitting), and is not in MGR range. What is it's current range reversing, exactly, other than like Titan Knuckle?

Again, if I were to propose something that hurt Big Band's ability to use SSJ as a reversal I would be upset with myself, but I don't think toning down the range (what exactly are you "reversal-ing?), and it's offensive threat, is unreasonable.
 
Beamsprouts said:
But it's max range, currently, is far from instant overhead height (Parsoul forward jump j.lp takes reactable travel time before hitting), and is not in MGR range.


That pic you posted, BB is totally in mgr range. Though i dont know how relevant that is since mgr grabs BB out of ssj if the mgr is in active frames as the super flash goes off.


Seriously though, on a different matter, is this thread REALLY complaining about hitstop... Or is it complaining about SSJ? Because besides dekillsage, everyone seems more or less happy with the unblockable range on DD, but the one that seems to get people is SSJ.


Its like the thread needs to be renamed:


Nerf hitstop range on ssj pls (and we wouldnt mind a change to DD and gregor either, but mostly, nerf SSJ pls)


The thread.

If it were system wide high range unblockable supers, then i would understand. But, its mostly SSJ. I think people that just learned how to fuzzy and use lockdown assists are just autopiloting fuzzy against BB and getting destroyed for it and being mad. And i also think that it has to do with SSJ ability to easily punish damn near anything on block. People probably get punished by it on block and just go "fucking ssj masher scrub" etc etc

I could be wrong, but that is at least how it feels when i hear that people want to nerf SSJ... Specifically.
 
Dime_x said:
That pic you posted, BB is totally in mgr range.
Then: SSJ is being specifically asked to be nerfed.

He's not in MGR range. I tested it.


When I have the time (probably tomorrow) I'm planning on taking screenshots of all the hitstop ranges on every relevant super (including things like Scalpels and Death Crawl). I'm talking about SSJ a lot since it's the most obvious example, and Dynamo is the second, not because I think they're the only thing that is relevant. When I have all the ranges recorded and screencapped, I'm going to look at them all critically, ask myself "Is this range reasonable?", make my own decisions and recommendations, and then share it here so that you can all look at them. My guess is that a decent number would be unchanged in my proposed hitstop formula, but yes, supers I think are a problem (like SSJ and Dynamo and honestly Fenrir Drive) will be noted and I'll explain specifically why for each one.

Again, I'm complaining about the range hitstop lends some supers, and I will look at all of them. I am not only focusing on SSJ, though I will use it since it's the most blatant example.

I guess you have no proof that I'm not a scrub that wants to nerf Big Band until I can link it to you guys, though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Dime_x said:
Seriously though, on a different matter, is this thread REALLY complaining about hitstop... Or is it complaining about SSJ? Because besides dekillsage, everyone seems more or less happy with the unblockable range on DD, but the one that seems to get people is SSJ.
dekillsage wasn't even complaining about the new range : it simply made possible to do super easy safe jumps by calling your assist so it eats the first hit, while the point character could do a meaty jump attack. The point character wasn't at range for the first frame with small hitbox, so only the assist gets hit, and then the point can had until the next rotation of fists to land and block, then HCH punish.
Mikez had to fix this issue by making the first 5 frames or so active even if the first frame hit, thing that wasn't the case before (active until there is a hit, then not active until next rotation of fists, then unactive again as soon as it hits again, etc). That way the first frame hits the assist, and the following frames with big hitboxes hit the point char before he has time to land.

tl;dr : nobody complained about the range reduction.
 
Beamsprouts said:
He's not in MGR range. I tested it.


When I have the time (probably tomorrow) I'm planning on taking screenshots of all the hitstop ranges on every relevant super (including things like Scalpels and Death Crawl). I'm talking about SSJ a lot since it's the most obvious example, and Dynamo is the second, not because I think they're the only thing that is relevant. When I have all the ranges recorded and screencapped, I'm going to look at them all critically, ask myself "Is this range reasonable?", make my own decisions and recommendations, and then share it here so that you can all look at them. My guess is that a decent number would be unchanged in my proposed hitstop formula, but yes, supers I think are a problem (like SSJ and Dynamo and honestly Fenrir Drive) will be noted and I'll explain specifically why for each one.

Again, I'm complaining about the range hitstop lends some supers, and I will look at all of them. I am not only focusing on SSJ, though I will use it since it's the most blatant example.

I guess you have no proof that I'm not a scrub that wants to nerf Big Band until I can link it to you guys, though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Ok, i just tested it to. And you are right.

They ARE comparable however. Ssj range is like 2 7/8 squares, bella mgr range is like 2 1/4 squares.


Comparable, but yeah ssj has has definitively more range.

Ssj however isnt an unblockable unless you hold forward or neutral whereas mgr always forces either a jump or a reversal if you are in its range. I dont really find them comparable on those points. On the unblockable range i found them comparable, but the unblockables being completely different properties, to me is like comparing a high attack, to a low attack. Both beat a certain kind of block, but thats it.
 
Cynical said:
Parasouls 6lp isn't blocked on reaction

I don't have a problem doing this.


it's always the 4HK that bops me ;_;
Beamsprouts said:
Up close I totally agree with you. If you call Pillar right next to me I want to be able to punish you. I like Skarmand's idea that PBGC will always provide hitstop for this reason. But, when I call out Bomber or Lock n' Load and don't feel comfortable even moving forward because I know I'm at max range of SSJ hitstop and that could get me hit, I think that's an oppressive defense.

And this is pretty much where me (and a couple others I've talked to) have a problem. There's a certain amount of respect that needs to go to the opponents ability to reversal, but I feel that it's too much right now. Being on the offensive almost feels like you're in a disadvantageous position at times.

But, like Uzu and a couple others mentioned earlier, there's so much crazy offense in this game that I think powerful defensive options need to exist. The PBGC idea is something I really hope we get a shot at it in the beta.
 
The problem with the pbgc idea on paper is, if you make it a green pbgc, then its kinda random whether you get the crazy hitstop ssj, or you get a toned down version on a non green one, and the difference is losing a character. Right now there are 2 types of pbgc. The green ones that designate when blockstun was reduced, and the other ones that simply come about after the pushblock has ended. Both are pbgc but the latter is so frequent that giving it a green graphic means the characters light up all day.


But the former, is so rare that it doesnt happen that much and, more to the point, doesnt occur many times one is doing pbgc ssj or deathcrawl or whatever.

This would only really affect ssj and gregor since most other things either dont have a whole lot of invincibility to use or have much smaller unblockable ranges.

Seriously, this is much more just an anti ssj thing.

And as ive already said, the problem is less the ssj/gregor/whatever. The problem at the end of the day is cats. If i or anyone else mashes ssj as the anchor character on the team... ALL you have to do is block and get a full counterhit combo.


Even dhcing into "safe" dhcs like pw install or parasoul bikes or peacock Lenny arent that big of problem because all the defender gets is neutral. THE PROBLEM, is when we bait ssj/DD/gregor / whatever... And then our opponent gets to not only break out of pressure. But also gets to put us under pressure that is the problem.

I block reversals all day. But cats invariably follows them up which is the real problem. Watch how much a BB reversals with ssj when he has cats behind him versus when he's solo or last man standing... That alone should show what the real culprit is.
 
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Dolfinh said:
I don't have a problem doing this.


it's always the 4HK that bops me ;_;
Fun fact: 4hk is actually slower than 6lp.

As I said, you're not reacting to the animation. You're reacting to the dash -> pause and rhythm-blocking, and the spacing is giving it away. You don't have those tells on 4hk, since its range is a little longer and it's usually chained into.
 
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To clarify this a bit - I still don't like even this change, and supers at neutral will not be getting worse.
Should supers be reaction blockable up close when you are standing around? IMO, no. Should you be standing around without trying to block? No, not really.
 
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But at least now you won't "mix yourself up" when trying a left-right reset or things like that.
 
Kawalorn said:
But at least now you won't "mix yourself up" when trying a left-right reset or things like that.
When doing that you're generally in the middle of an action that won't allow you to block, even with this...
 
- Ground techs remove half your undizzy, not all of it
...Ewww.

What prompted this experiment?
 
Mike_Z said:
To clarify this a bit - I still don't like even this change, and supers at neutral will not be getting worse.
Should supers be reaction blockable up close when you are standing around? IMO, no. Should you be standing around without trying to block? No, not really.
What about supers being reaction blockable when we're not at very close range? Because some of them definitely feel like they reach a bit further with the hitstop then they should. SSJ and Dynamo being prime examples (lets pretend that ssj isn't attached to a character that a lot of people consider to be on the weaker end)
 
dekillsage said:
Not to be mean but this means you don't actually know how to play this game correctly.

Could you elaborate because I still have no clue what I'm doing.
 
Dolfinh said:
What about supers being reaction blockable when we're not at very close range? Because some of them definitely feel like they reach a bit further with the hitstop then they should. SSJ and Dynamo being prime examples (lets pretend that ssj isn't attached to a character that a lot of people consider to be on the weaker end)

Dynamo is really not too far anymore since it got nerfed. You can bait it at far c.lk ranges now and get out reaction supers and so on.
 
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