• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

Timid Training Transcript

Having played you in a lobby a couple nights ago, I'd say right now it doesn't matter what character you use, because the biggest hole I saw in your game was defense (or lack thereof).

I don't remember you even getting to do a single move against me; you got hit after every combo, and never got out of my Val rushdown. It wasn't that I was doing tricky resets; simple "run up, s.lp" or "call assist, j.mp" after finishing combos lead to hits every time. When you're under pressure, you need to hold back on the stick; I don't know if you were just pushing buttons at bad times, or if you were just keeping the stick in neutral or something, but blocking, getting some space, and getting back to neutral is similar for every character, and it's probably the biggest thing you need to work on right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DanTheMeek
Cynical said:
Having played you in a lobby a couple nights ago, I'd say right now it doesn't matter what character you use, because the biggest hole I saw in your game was defense (or lack thereof).

I don't remember you even getting to do a single move against me; you got hit after every combo, and never got out of my Val rushdown. It wasn't that I was doing tricky resets; simple "run up, s.lp" or "call assist, j.mp" after finishing combos lead to hits every time. When you're under pressure, you need to hold back on the stick; I don't know if you were just pushing buttons at bad times, or if you were just keeping the stick in neutral or something, but blocking, getting some space, and getting back to neutral is similar for every character, and it's probably the biggest thing you need to work on right now.



That's good info and the exact kind of info that he needs. Block more, get back to neutral.


So since he's being rushed down... Do you think it's more pertinent for him to have updo as an assist or like:


Drag n bite/some weirdo squigly assist that a beginner won't be able to comprehend?
 
Cynical said:
Having played you in a lobby a couple nights ago, I'd say right now it doesn't matter what character you use, because the biggest hole I saw in your game was defense (or lack thereof).

I don't remember you even getting to do a single move against me; you got hit after every combo, and never got out of my Val rushdown. It wasn't that I was doing tricky resets; simple "run up, s.lp" or "call assist, j.mp" after finishing combos lead to hits every time. When you're under pressure, you need to hold back on the stick; I don't know if you were just pushing buttons at bad times, or if you were just keeping the stick in neutral or something, but blocking, getting some space, and getting back to neutral is similar for every character, and it's probably the biggest thing you need to work on right now.

Yeah, you definitely completely outclassed me, but I expected it, there were no beginner or casual lobbys, and no one joined the beginner lobby I opened and sat around alone in for about 20 minutes, so when I went into you're intermediate one I knew coming in that the result was likely going to be what it was. I was actually pretty shocked you friended me after beating me so badly. Its funny that you mention I didn't block enough as chris has told me before that my problem is I block too much, I play to aggressive characters but I'm always sitting back on the defensive blocking instead of being the aggressor. I think in you're case it was probably a combination of guessing wrong with my blocks (blocking high when you went low, low when you went high) but maybe I did try to attack and got beat as well, I admit the whole match was over so quick I don't remember the details.

As Chris can also probably confirm, once a player scores a single combo on me, the match is pretty much over 9 times out of 10, I just can't get people off me once there on top of me, its just one combo to another to another to death. One of the tricks he advised me was using cere's super throw when I'm being pressured to try to break out of it, not sure if that match against you was before or after Chris' advice, but if it was after, I probably just forgot about trying to do that under the heat of the moment.

Regardless thank you very much for the advisement, truly good and useful insights I shall take to heart. Unfortunately its hard to practice breaking out of pressure in the training room so if it looks like I'm completely cluesless as to what to do in those situations, its because I really am.
 
DanTheMeek said:
Its funny that you mention I didn't block enough as chris has told me before that my problem is I block too much, I play to aggressive characters but I'm always sitting back on the defensive blocking instead of being the aggressor.
I haven't seen your neutral game, but I'm guessing he means that you block too much when at neutral. When you're at neutral, you want to be moving around and hitting buttons, yes. But, once someone has gotten that hit or forced you to block, you don't have nearly as much freedom to attack; at that point you want to block, push block, and return things to neutral before you start hitting buttons, unless you've got a really good reversal (Squigly doesn't have one, Filia has a couple of them) *and* have a good idea of where gaps are.

DimeX: Updo or Pillar are probably more useful assists for him, but more because of their neutral game implications than their defensive applications. Beginner players tend to get happy birthday'd a lot when they try to call assists to get them out of pressure (I know because I've happy birthday'd a bunch of bad assists, and because I've been happy birthday'd a bunch of times trying to get out of pressure with HP LnL assist). Honestly, for someone with a Street Fighter background like Dan has according to this thread, I'd guess that Parasoul or Double would be the easiest choices to learn (ground-oriented game, not a lot of reliance on using air mobility tricks, high priority normals), and both of them have strong defensive options anyways - but, honestly, I don't see character choice as making a huge difference in this case.
 
Dime_x said:
That's good info and the exact kind of info that he needs. Block more, get back to neutral.


So since he's being rushed down... Do you think it's more pertinent for him to have updo as an assist or like:


Drag n bite/some weirdo squigly assist that a beginner won't be able to comprehend?
It'd be better that he learned how to play neutral instead of relying on assists to play it for him.
 
And Dan, if you want to play sometime I can help you out and give you some advice
 
Icky said:
It'd be better that he learned how to play neutral instead of relying on assists to play it for him.


You mean like duckator. Oh wait...

Dude. Using assists to neutral IS PLAYING NEUTRAL.


I like don't really get what you mean by playing neutral while not relying on... Insert move. Everyone has pokes that they use and assist are certainly pokes. I don't know of any good players that are playing this game at a particularly high level without some form of invulnerable assist/move on their team, and if there are some... They aren't beginners I can tell you that much.


The fact that you seem to think that using invincible assists at neutral is a crutch... Says alot actually.
 
From reading the last couple posts I feel this should be said:

Defense =/= Blocking

There's a lot more to it, and it's really one of the most important aspects for proper footsies.

Check out Worldjem's guide.
 
There's a difference between using assists in neutral and relying on them. You really should be able to play without some invincible assist, especially since you can't always have them (if you're down to your last character, assist lockout, ect. ect.)

And relying on assists to not get rushed down? if you're a beginner you're just going to get happy birthday'd every time.
 
I have to ask, what does "happy birthday'd" mean? I admit I don't currently use assists at all, I don't really have any background with games that have assists so while I know from watching videos that they can be useful, I've just been ignoring them for the time being assuming when I reach a level where I should learn what they are and how to use them Dime would give me some sort of assist training.
 
It's when two or more of your characters are being hit at the same time.
 
Icky said:
There's a difference between using assists in neutral and relying on them. You really should be able to play without some invincible assist, especially since you can't always have them (if you're down to your last character, assist lockout, ect. ect.)

And relying on assists to not get rushed down? if you're a beginner you're just going to get happy birthday'd every time.


Nope sorry, we have a fundamental disagreement here. I personally CAN play without assists with all my characters. But I've never seen any reason to know how to play without assists on an assist team. Also, I would be lying if I said that my off assist play was as good as on assist. As far as anchor goes, that's why we put characters that are good without assists... At anchor. The caveat that they have good assists to use as well.

I really don't get why so many people say that one needs to learn how to play without assists... It's like some super theory fighter stuff imho.

Cause when I learned how to play my character WITH assists I learned how to play WITHOUT assists at the same time... Ie I could use my character solo pretty well. Whereas were I to use a character solo and then try to play with assists... There would be a lot of learning involved. It certainly wouldn't pick up quickly.


As far as assist getting happen birthdayed... That's just getting countered. That can happen to anything. Your cr.lk can be countered, your jumpin can be countered, anything you do predictably can be countered. However the power of invincible assists is that they counter rote things that normal wouldn't be easy to counter and finally, invincible assist are many times, the STARTERS of happy birthdays themselves (all assists are). So yeah I really don't see your point about learning to play without assists... On an assist team.


If he were playing solo... Ok yes, that makes sense, but assisted? Nope doesn't make much sense. You of course have to make good decisions... But making bad decisions and learning from them is how good decisions are eventually made...the caveat that invincible assists make good decisions quite often.
 
There's a difference between having your c.lk countered and losing one character as opposed to having your updo assist countered and losing two characters. Look man, Dan should play whoever the fuck he wants to play.

I am very peeved how you're his "coach" yet your telling him to ignore my advice. He should listen to everyone's advice and use his own head to decide what's good advice and bad advice. He needs different view points from different people and make his own decisions.
 
Icky said:
There's a difference between having your c.lk countered and losing one character as opposed to having your updo assist countered and losing two characters. Look man, Dan should play whoever the fuck he wants to play.

I am very peeved how you're his "coach" yet your telling him to ignore my advice. He should listen to everyone's advice and use his own head to decide what's good advice and bad advice. He needs different view points from different people and make his own decisions.


I didn't tell him to ignore your advice I said I wouldn't take it and that he should do whatever he thinks best. I've never said that I'm the only person to gve him advice... Ask him yourself... But your "advice" is dubious at best and mainly aims at some sort of theory whereas I'm telling him what WORKS...

So yeah. And we an agree to disagree.
 
Icky said:
I'm telling him what works too.
Then pls show the vids og high level players beating other high level players where one isn't using an invulnerable assist and is winning the majority of the games.

The furthest you would get would be hk hairball, cerecopter and maybe plane. Squigly has non of those but she dp does have dnb which is good, but trying to teach a beginner the ins and outs of lockdown assist play when they can barely get the ins and outs of gtfo assist play is dubious. Like I said updo is EASIER to use. What about that don't you get? It's also in most situations BETTER. It ain't rocket science.

New bs get rushed down so add defense. The best sg player has 2 invulnerable assists. And like the top 20-50 or whatever are all using invulnerables on their teams... Few teams if any are being anchored by squigly... And the ones that are... Aren't doing well... So I don't know what you mean by saying that you are telling him what works... Also.

You got any vids? I don't need any vids to prove my point cause.... Updo.
 
I'm with Dime on this; I don't see how learning to "play neutral without assists" won't happen naturally just by playing. Assists are a part of neutral. Learn to use them.

I'm just saying that having a DP assist isn't an instant panacea on defense. There's differences between a DP assist and a real reversal.

EDIT: The only place I will disagree a bit is that I'll say that armored assists, such as Battletoads or Lock 'n Load are also pretty solid choices.
 

Here's one.

Look man, the point is that he can play whoever the fuck he wants and he can do well playing whoever the fuck he wants if he puts in the time.
 
Icky said:
Here's one.

Look man, the point is that he can play whoever the fuck he wants and he can do well playing whoever the fuck he wants if he puts in the time.


... This is why I dont like to argue over the internet.
I don't know what that video is trying to prove... But I saw mk bomber. Which is an invulnerable assist... Zid is solo and has no assist... So obviously zid don't count (since he has no assists). Also, the only solos that are considered highly viable... Are the ones with the best reversals (fortune,Bella,filia) coincidence?

Lol and yes dan can play whoever the fuck he wants. I don't know why you are riding that point so harshly.

He asked for advice TO WIN and I gave it to him:

Drop squigly and make a choice between filia or dubs with updo or bomber respectively. HE PICKED FILIA.


I don't know what more to say man. You seem to be losing your shit cause you think picking ironman, raccoon, hsien-ko is the way to go for a beginner... Cause that's what squigly anchor is... For a beginner... You are stacking the cards in the opponents favor at the character select. Dp screen... And I'm sorry, but any good coach is going to teach there players not to make that all to easy to make mistake.

Once dan figuepres out how to play using filias updo assist I actually hope he does branch off to other things. But now certainly ain't the time. Anywho I'm done with this argument. I'll let you get the last word.
 
How the fuck doesn't that count?! HOW IS THAT NOT PROVING THAT YOU DON'T NEED AN INVINCIBLE ASSIST TO WIN?! ARE YOU SERIOUS. HE DOESN'T EVEN HAVE AN ASSIST, LET ALONE AN INVINCIBLE ONE.

Advice to win: spend time playing and learning the game. Done. End of fucking story. I'm done here.
 
Dime_x said:
And this ggpo fix is the bomb. Actually I wouldn't mind trying a few matches out against you with this new ggpo fix that mike put in.

By the way Dime, I don't mind losing (for a purpose) so feel free to add me on steam any time you're available and I'd be happy to see how much GGPO can over come the lag and let us actually hook up in a match.
 
Unfortunately after a day of owning just about everyone I played... My home internet has crapped out... Maybe it will be back up later... Idk (this device is hooked to a different internet than my home that's why I can still post) but yeah, once is learn how to add friends on steam I'll definitely play you. But I'm starting to think quick match is really bad though... I never have to do mixups... People fall for the level 1 reset mixup like every time.. So it's getting super flowchart....

I don't know why I mention it here... Just yeah, idk how far quick match would get you dan cause you need to be able to play against the same opponent multiple times so that you can start to have a feel for there rhythm and mixups and make reads accordingly.


Anywho when I get back on I will try and teach you these kinds of things :)
 
Dime_x said:
But I'm starting to think quick match is really bad though... I never have to do mixups... People fall for the level 1 reset mixup like every time.. So it's getting super flowchart....
As a super-baddie who got slaughtered by you twice, all I can say is :(
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
Cynical said:
As a super-baddie who got slaughtered by you twice, all I can say is :(

Oh you were the one with pbac something the super scrub or whatever... Ggs man. I thought you weren't to bad at all... You certainly got your shots in. I thought our games were fun :)
 
I stopped using quick match after my original controversial thread on the forum about people taunting beginners, as I learned there that quick match no longer has any skill based match making, its literally just putting you with first available, so vets are getting matched against beginners like me which is probably why you were seeing what you were seeing. After another hour or two training room session though I did make a lobby and finally got some people to join, Skarmand and ... dang, why is the other guys name blanking on me, either way they both took turns perfecting me for a while before, largely do to a crazy lag spike I managed to steal a win from the guy whose name I can't remember, and later managed to take out one of Skarmands two characters, which was progress after the series of perfects at the beginning (for the record I did get in damage in all the matches, they just switched back and healed back to full before the match ended). Not really sure I learned anything other then that if you play the same person enough times to see their tendencies, combined with lag, even a scrub like me can score a few hits. Still, was nice to get some one to join one of my lobbies for once, even if they were way out of my league.

Note: Its worth noting that in the round I won, the guy switched his Squigly Cere team to Squigly Val, so its possible he was just messing around with a character he didn't know well too that helped me steal the win.
 
Training Day 1 + 2 + ??? = Profit

So I took the day off from work today, I'd originally requested it months ago because my wife was supposed to come in town to visit, but she rescheduled on me so now its just a errand and relax day. I don't know if I'm just a better player in the morning or what but been off to a really good start in my training room work this morning, including just now breaking my previous all time highest damage combo total, reaching 8694 on my last combo. I actually think I can do even better then that though so gonna keep at it and we'll see if I'm not updating this later with an even higher score.

Still doing pretty unimpressive damage with my filia combos even when I don't drop them, my best combo requires 3 super bars (it's basically the combo Dime had me focus on except from the gregor I link to fenrir then DHC dynamo) and doesn't do nearly enough damage to justify all the meter burn. Not really sure what my best combo off a gregor is, especially if I don't have meter.

Its worth nothing the cerebella combo that just got me 8694 damage also is using 3 meters so not really viable in a real match most of the time unless its to finish their last guy, but the combo is the same one I've been doing, just with a different finisher (after the dynamo at the end DHCing into Filia's level 3 instead of fenrir), so I don't think I'm messing my muscle memory too bad having a little fun with it.
 
DanTheMeek said:
later managed to take out one of Skarmands two characters, which was progress after the series of perfects at the beginning (for the record I did get in damage in all the matches, they just switched back and healed back to full before the match ended).

Hm, I'm curious, did my name change go through? I changed my name from "Skarmand" to "Hold up to escape Daisy Pusher" then picked Squiggly and made sure I set it up so you could jump, because I was noticing you weren't doing that when I was spectating you vs that Squiggly. Sorry if I seemed mean! I was trying to quickly teach you something important vs Squiggly in case you didn't know it, you did jump it eventually though and I was displayed my hype through tapping down a few times for a second though! :D

Also I would use your air grab a bit more, you were sticking to ground grabs so much that I could just up+back out of your pressure to avoid the throw each time.
 
Training - Day 9169

That didn't take long, just hit 9169. I think that's the extent I can push this current combo to, but it feels pretty nice to break the 9k mark. 3 meters is a lot, so again, not sure how often the combo would even see play, but not that long ago I couldn't even imagine numbers that high being displayed after a combo I executed so I choose to take it as a sign of improvement.
 
Skarmand said:
Hm, I'm curious, did my name change go through? I changed my name from "Skarmand" to "Hold up to escape Daisy Pusher" then picked Squiggly and made sure I set it up so you could jump, because I was noticing you weren't doing that when I was spectating you vs that Squiggly. Sorry if I seemed mean! I was trying to quickly teach you something important vs Squiggly in case you didn't know it, you did jump it eventually though and I was displayed my hype through tapping down a few times for a second though! :D

Also I would use your air grab a bit more, you were sticking to ground grabs so much that I could just up+back out of your pressure to avoid the throw each time.

I admit I didn't notice the name change, but I appreciate the attempt to help! Rest assured my inability to escape Daisy Pusher was something I became painfully aware of during that set of matches, and I did feel really good when I finally jumped out of one lol. You didn't seem mean at all, I was just happy to have people to play some matches against.

As cerebella I pretty much have no answer to people who take to the air, I try to air grab occasionally but usually get beat out by attacks and don't know how to combo out of any of her air grabs either so it feels like an awful lot of risk for not much gain. Thats probably an area I've really been concerned with, I have no good tools to make opponents respect the air space in front of me, but most of my best attack options require they be grounded. I'm sure Cerebella has tools, I just haven't learned them yet. When you say air throws, do you mean Excellabella, or literally my jumping in response to your jumping and then doing the hat grab or even just a normal grab? Can you combo out of any of the air grabs?
 
You can combo from excelebella with dynamo, and from her normal air throw you can do j.2MP xx dynamo.

There's also a way to start a combo from air throw with a falling j.lp, c.mk but it's very hard(everybody has problems with and most ignore it, but it's a really strong tool since people don't expect air resets from bella) so you can leave that aside for now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DanTheMeek
Alternatively, just use grab bag instead of air throw, since it does good damage on its own.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DanTheMeek
DanTheMeek said:
When you say air throws, do you mean Excellabella, or literally my jumping in response to your jumping and then doing the hat grab or even just a normal grab? Can you combo out of any of the air grabs?

Excellabella is really good when they try and upback is what I meant but you can also follow for an air throw > elbow > dynamo, as for when they're actually in the air though I'm not sure I don't play Bella :P.
Bella has deadly mixup though and a lot of times they'll have to guess the mixup if they want to get away. If you think they're going to up back because you have been ground throwing for resets or pressure, c.LK will catch them during the start up of a jump even when blocking. Just make sure you're timing c.LK as they leave blockstun so they don't jump over your foot!
Practicing tight block strings in the training room and then adding small gaps in strings and putting some mixup in will improve your game for sure. You can easily punish people who don't push block your ground strings by canceling into a throw just as they leave block stun, also making your heavy attacks safer.
Ex: Your combo starts with a launcher string: c.LK, MP, c.HP
c.HP is blocked and ENEMY DOESNT PUSHBLOCK, so you pause until the enemy leaves blockstun, now you're currently vulnerable, so you cancel into 236LK+LP. They will lose everytime unless they are holding up or they mash a reversal like Updo. After they learn to hold up, then you're just setting them up for excellabella!
 
  • Like
Reactions: DanTheMeek
Thanks for all the answers and advice everyone.

So not that beating random player in lobbies is a meaningful measure of ones growth or ability... but today I was actually beating people in lobbies! One lobby after I beat everyone in it quite handily (an unnamed lobby) everyone left, which I'm not sure if I should feel good or bad about that but I'm choosing to feel good that it seems some people felt I was too good to play with. I also went through a series in a beginners lobby full of people where I didn't lose a single match, my final match being against the guy who also hadn't lost a single match so I was assuming he was the ringer of the 6 of us, but while the match was close, I beat him too!

Again, I understand that wins and losses don't mean a darn thing as far as my actual improvement goes, but after doing primarily nothing but losing for so long, I'd be lying if I didn't admit to all this winning feeling pretty satisfying. I'm still dropping my filia combos like crazy, but I even landed my full 7k+ damage cerebella combo against some one in a match, I kind of felt guilty afterward cause it felt like those sort of things shouldn't be getting tossed around in a casual - beginner lobby but once I got the combo started my fingers just did the rest on their own and the new netcode is so amazing that the lag let me pull it off with out a hitch.

So to summarize, I'm certain I still suck overall, but I think I may be entering this stage I keep hearing about in-between beginner and intermediate.

Or maybe it was just a lucky series of matches, who knows, either way I'm definitely feeling pumped right now ^_^
 
Training - Day #

Just a quick update, last night got to play with Dime_X for the first time, albeit briefly, he schooled me once, then did a quick over view of how to use assists when poking to make the approach safer and the attacks harder to block. Definitely some good stuff. Then this morning just grinding away in the training lab I broke the 9k mark with a filia combo, 9005 to be precise. The combo did require 4 meters though so not something I'd probably even want to attempt in a real match, let a lone would have many opportunities to go for, but it was quite literally the first time I've done anything even close to meaningful damage with filia at point. The majority of the damage comes from a block buster sequel into Diamonds Are Forever, so it also requires Crebella still be a live and kicking.

Still not really sure what the best follow up to a gregor is, I've been trying to do forward dash into c.lk -> c.mk -> s.hp but even when I managed to land it then pretty much anything I do to them in the air results in a burst so I'm not sure its even worth the trouble to go for another launch.

Regardless, progress still feels like its being made, which is always a nice feeling and motivator compared to a few weeks there where it felt like I was just spinning my tires.
 
Training - Day X

Better execution on the Filia max damage combo boosted it to 9253 damage today in the training room. Other then that just training room grinding the usual combos, but since I upped the damage on the combo figured I'd note it so I can keep coming back and comparing. Basically just trying to add in an extra light attack here or there as my execution and speed improves on the core combo. Would be nice to figure out a way to continue or improve that cerebella combo but I guess that would probably require learning restands so probably still better to focus on refining the basic combos since I still drop them like crazy.
 
Last edited:
DanTheMeek said:
Would be nice to figure out a way to continue or improve that cerebella combo but I guess that would probably require learning restands so probably still better to focus on refining the basic combos since I still drop them like crazy.

This video is very very helpful once you get it down if you haven't seen it, I nail it like 98% of the time online it's pretty hard to drop it once you get used to it, but getting it down at first is a bit tricky.
Sorry if you've already seen it:

 
  • Like
Reactions: DanTheMeek
I did see it a long time ago, but I think I got scared away when I heard plinking as I could never pull off plinking more the once like every 10th try when I used to play SF4 so I think I tried it like once or twice and then just moved on to more beginner combos. I'll give it a real shot though in between my regular training sessions and see what comes of it, couldn't hurt right? Thank you for the link and support Skarmand!
 
DanTheMeek said:
Thank you for the link and support Skarmand!
Yeah if you ever want to play some practice rounds or ask for help feel free to hit me up on Steam!
 
Hate to post again so soon but... just hit 10108 damage on a filia combo. Just broke my 10k cherry, felt like that deserved another post. Almost makes me feel dumb for posting the other amount earlier. I tried calling an assist in the middle of the combo and it didn't break up my combo like it usually does (trying out Cerebella's LnL for my Bella assist), just purely added on an extra 500 damage to the total damage. Who knew training mode practice could actually be fun, never happened in any other games I've training mode trained in, but the fact I'm not attempting any Just Frames or 1-frame links is probably making things considerably less frustrating.

Edit: Make that 10597 now using the same trick and seeing if I could squeeze in a few more jump attacks before the hair ball -> gregor in the aerial portion of the combo.

No successes yet on cerebella restands though....
 
Last edited:
I recommend playing people on a regular basis on top of training mode grind. You should also go around and add different people because everybody has different playstyles and characters so it would be good to get used to those things. Skarmand however.... He made me take a break for an entire day with the beating I got from him...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Cynical, DanTheMeek and skull person
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back