Umbrella Alpha Gameplay Discussion Thread

[Bookworm]

Having the whole bar flash purple for starving doesn't make much sense. It should probably stay empty with some other graphical effect that exaggerates that.

 

[Chrono_Tata]

The whole bar flashing would make a lot more sense when the bar was the other way around, but now that empty bar means starving it is certainly weird.

Apart from that the new bar is looking a lot better. The pips always showing and the notches for the thresholds are very nice.

 

[Nuuance]

Yeah, the edges of the bar glowing red or that nice pink colour would be nice instead.

also when bar goes to full/overstuffed (or any status), can it not decrease before the opponent gets up from knockdown/bubble? Almost 1/3 is gone just before you can start fighting again. For ravenous/overstuffed feels a bit frustrating.

and when her meter drops is she still gonna have health drain or something?

Extra stuff noticed:
- chord > umbrella raw tag doesn’t work on everyone. Maybe adjust hitboxes?
- super > lens doesn’t hit everyone close up under certain circumstances & just misses squigly. Not sure if intended.
- It’d be specific to umbrella but keeping in step with ability to do multiple puddles, could she do multiple lens supers that stay onscreen?

 

[Liam]

New update is live, pretty small here just focusing on Umbrella HUD adjustments.

Skullgirls 2nd Encore - Beta Mode Update [2021-09-20] - Steam News

Hello, Liam here. Today's update is mostly focused on bug fixing and tweaks to Umbrella's latest HUD updates. UMBRELLA HUD - Adjusted Starving glow animation. HUD - Fixed numerous issues with Umbrella's HUD on Player 2 side. HUD - Adjusted transition animation when Ravenous becomes Starving...

store.steampowered.com

 

[acfan]

Retina Reflector is interacting with Painwheel H pinion hitbox in a way that uses the H pinion hitbox; not sure if this is correct for the person using this?

 

[Nuuance]

like to see retina reflector work directly off grab rather of sending them directly to the ground, seems fair & Scaling still applies. just phases through atm & saving otg would be nice like how others can off throw if super doesnt over or undershoot with timing.

also WOWWW this is literally one of the dopest supers ever. wish more supers reflected such utility :) hopefully more do in the future. Great work. Wasnt really a big fan at first but looking forward to updates. sidenote: will fullness meter drain an eensy bit slower?

 

[Liam]

Retina Reflector is interacting with Painwheel H pinion hitbox in a way that uses the H pinion hitbox; not sure if this is correct for the person using this?

Yeah I think I'll make assist hits ignore it since they don't set off the eyeballs.

like to see retina reflector work directly off grab rather of sending them directly to the ground, seems fair & Scaling still applies.

I think I'll have time to look into this soon. You mean Normal Throw → Retina Reflector (Contact Lens) → Combo, yes?

 

[Nuuance]

Yeah I think I'll make assist hits ignore it since they don't set off the eyeballs.


I think I'll have time to look into this soon. You mean Normal Throw → Retina Reflector (Contact Lens) → Combo, yes?

Definitely that’s it.

lastly, next to opponent using retina reflector, it goes through majority of the cast even backed up a bit. I’m assuming when holding a button its Supposed to combo/juggle on contact normally with whatever strength (closest I got is like livermortis > SBO) keeping otg.

Can see in clip

edit: ahh i see now how it's intended & helps much better with dhcs

 

[Liam]

next to opponent using retina reflector, it goes through majority of the cast even backed up a bit

The further you place Contact Lens from Umbrella, the more start up the projectile has before it gets to active frames and can be interacted with. This is working as intended.

 

[Liam]

Next update is coming along nicely. It will have two new moves for her, and Contact Lens will be able to reflect projectiles against one character (guess who!) to test that functionality before we roll it out for all projectiles.

There's still a lot of fine tuning to do on these last two moves though so I'm unsure it will be done in time for me to push an update today, it may arrive on Monday instead.

 

[Liam]

3.3.7 is now live

Skullgirls 2nd Encore - Beta Mode Update [2021-10-04] - Steam News

Hello, Liam here. Today's update adds two new moves to Umbrella's moveset. Slurp 'n' Slide Bobblin' Bubble GENERAL Fixed some issues with the back stage banners on NMO arena not being properly aligned with some characters. In training mode, health settings have been split into "Health Level"...

store.steampowered.com

 

[Chrono_Tata]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1445120128769671170

The most important feature.

 

[Nuuance]

so i played an umbrella/parasol duo earlier & it occured to me...what if they both could interact each others puddles/bubbles & tears after a tag or dhc? As sisters :D

apart from just normal synergy teams have, it'd just be really damn cool imo flavourwise too adding another level of depth. or even the whole cast having moves to splash the puddle/pop the ubble as teammates after tagging (if not just para at least)?

definitely some combo vids id love to see

 

[Liam]

'Nother random update on things we're working on!

HUNGERN STATE CHANGE EFFECTS

These should make it crystal clear when you went from Satiated to Overstuffed, Starving to Ravenous, etc. They'll likely launch without sound effects, but that will be coming after!

SUPERS

We're working on her Level 3, and her other Level 1. Both are coming along, with her level 3 being more complete of the two. Here's an early look at one of Hungern's more terrifying forms...

SPECIAL MOVES

You've probably seen the special move on the left being animated in the recent Future Club streams already, but here's another look at another special move on the right. "Is this a pigeon?" - Umbrella

 

[acfan]

Question about input overlap concerns; would it be possible to look at changing bubble input (214mp) be changed to 236mp, or another input?
I find myself getting Slurp 'n Slide when I want Bubble quite more than I'd like. Thanks!

 

[Liam]

Question about input overlap concerns; would it be possible to look at changing bubble input (214mp) be changed to 236mp, or another input?
I find myself getting Slurp 'n Slide when I want Bubble quite more than I'd like. Thanks!

I think that would lead to even more misinputs. Stick players sometimes roll through down when they do charge motions, so [4], 236MP would be both Slurp N Slide and Bobblin.

214MP doesn't have a forward input, which is required for Slurp N Slide - how are you getting a forward? Is this when dealing with cross ups?

 

[acfan]

I think that would lead to even more misinputs. Stick players sometimes roll through down when they do charge motions, so [4], 236MP would be both Slurp N Slide and Bobblin.

214MP doesn't have a forward input, which is required for Slurp N Slide - how are you getting a forward? Is this when dealing with cross ups?

I'm going to take another look at my replays and get back to you!

 

[Liam]

I'm going to take another look at my replays and get back to you!

No problem, take your time. =)

 

[Nuuance]

LOVE the state change effects. i hope ravenous & overstuffed wont drain so fast tho for the future!
edit: dont think its fair umbrellas fullness drains during combos.
2nd edit: i think snacklive mentioned an offhanded comment about spending meter to stay in a certain section of fullness (like a pseudo install). loved that

 

[Chrono_Tata]

edit: dont think its fair umbrellas fullness drains during combos.

The hunger state is locked during a combo even if hunger changes over the threshold, so personally I think it's fine. It's similar to PW's install.

 

[Nuuance]

The hunger state is locked during a combo even if hunger changes over the threshold, so personally I think it's fine. It's similar to PW's install.

agreed. meant being combo'd by opponent*

 

[Chrono_Tata]

agreed. meant being combo'd by opponent*

Ooh right that makes more sense.

 

[Liam]

An update (3.3.8.1) is live:

Skullgirls 2nd Encore - Beta (+ Retail!) Mode Update [2021-10-20] - Steam News

Hello, Liam here. This update includes 2 new moves for Umbrella, and includes all of her remaining sound effects! RETAIL MODE Fixed an issue where Peacock's frame data on Lonesome Lenny was not consistent between P1 and P2 side. In order to adjust this as safely as possible, the recovery of...

store.steampowered.com

 

[PaperBag_Sniper]

Technically this counts as interacting with a dead body making this the 2nd character to do so. Bring on the bone maid and my Gigan Goddess my body is ready.

 

[tristePinguino]

There's something I'd like to shed some light on, 'cuz I'm not certain that it's intentional.
I do not have footage to provide, so please bear with me.

When you hit an opponent with Umbrella's c.HK, they are thrown towards you in a "trip" state (if you will), yeah? Well, you can combo c.HK into Hungern Rush! If you do, upon colliding with the ground, the opponent will fall TOWARDS Umbrella in a "trip" state, as if they were hit with c.HK again. As far as I'm aware, this only occurs while Hungern is Satiated. You can even follow-up on it, which makes for a fun combo!

Here's an image that I hope will be of some use. In said image, the attacker is facing RIGHT.

Spoiler: See You Next Fall + Hungern Rush

TL;DR: If you combo c.HK into Hungern Rush, you can "naturally" follow-up with normals (if you haven't already used OTG).

 

[Liam]

There's something I'd like to shed some light on, 'cuz I'm not certain that it's intentional.
I do not have footage to provide, so please bear with me.

TL;DR: If you combo c.HK into Hungern Rush, you can "naturally" follow-up with normals (if you haven't already used OTG).

It's not intentional, and will be fixed in the next build. Thank you though!

I forgot to force the opponents facing direction to match Umbrella's when the throw is finished, whoops.

 

[LeviathanS]

pagThey could give Umbrella a 4th Blockbusters, she needs it, there were good ideas in her concept art, three Blockbusters will be limiting herThey could give Umbrella a 4th Blockbusters, she needs it, there were good ideas in her concept art, three Blockbusters will be limiting her

 

[missingno]

There are 5 other characters who have only three supers. They're fine, no reason to prematurely assume Umbrella can't be.

 

[SonicFox]

I’d love to see St.MP have the hitbox extended all the way to the handle for… reasons…

More seriously, I would still love to see her bubbles linger in the corner for a bit and to be able to either purposely fast fall st.MK or be able to reverse beat it like parasoul. Feel’s like soooo much cool stuff could happen from it if it lingered there.

 

[acfan]

A few things I'd like to discuss regarding Umbrella

--Slurp 'n' Slide feels really underwhelming right now and I'm curious if there are any plans for it to have more "oomph"? I was thinking if it slides across a popped bubble it gains some form of damage/ speed/ safety.

--With Retina Reflector, is it possible for Umbrella to hit the eyeballs the other way of the reflector?

--Umbrella's JHP on crossup is really bad, -17+ bad; there's a lack of hitbox at the end that discourages this type of play and I'm wondering if it's intentional to leave this kind of mixup out of Umbrella's kit?

--Would it be possible to hold down Umbrella 6hp assist to gain the overhead + bounce + damage increase? Similar to Peacock item drop assist, with the same risk and reward; I think it would give her more assist utility.

Looking forward to seeing the rest of her moves!!

edit- Found 2 more things to talk about

--I want to be able to manage my hunger better in the corner, and using bubble to maintain pressure but the bubble just goes off-screen and doesn't stay in corner? Is it possible to keep it floating at the corner?

--I found this bug while playing vs Squigly, Tongue Twister vs Silver Chord results in a tech-like instance

 

[cloudKing211]

So I think umbrella "Frame Data is different in different levels of hunger" and "Almost no access to specials in starving" is kinda wild.

The character goes from slow neutral child with big normals and control to practically not playable real quick.

Maybe explore a smaller range of frame data changes, and make their specials faster yet with massive frame data penalties (think DP is HCH punishable in starving, yet lch/mch punishable in other modes, etc)

I think a skullgirls character having access to little to none of their specials, in a state that their opponent can all but guarantee in certain situations is wack

 

[Liam]

@cloudKing211 ,
Starving punishment could stand to be lower if it needs to be, but she's missing her main special that is used to bail her out of that state quickly and go back to Ravenous. We can revisit the conversation once that's added.

Bubbles are likely not going to be usable in Starving, but Slurp N Slide and Hungern Rush could be.

--I found this bug while playing vs Squigly, Tongue Twister vs Silver Chord results in a tech-like instance

What did you expect to happen here out of curiosity? This feels like an okay resolution to me and is working as intended, since "grab from a projectile" style moves can trade.

--Slurp 'n' Slide feels really underwhelming right now and I'm curious if there are any plans for it to have more "oomph"?

It's one of the few moves that moves forward with a hitbox (Hairball, Cilia Clide, Bomber, Bypass, H Knuckle, etc) that is safe on block, where most of those other ones are pretty all-in. If it gets a bunch of other benefits it may not stay safe, but we can play with it later.

Actually, I'm going to not respond to too much balance stuff just yet because she's still incomplete and I've had very little time to tune and balance her. I'll circle back to this stuff later! Home stretch on her remaining moves...

 

[acfan]

What did you expect to happen here out of curiosity? This feels like an okay resolution to me and is working as intended, since "grab from a projectile" style moves can trade.

I had no idea what would happen so that's why I put it here, glad it wasn't a bug!

It's one of the few moves that moves forward with a hitbox (Hairball, Cilia Clide, Bomber, Bypass, H Knuckle, etc) that is safe on block, where most of those other ones are pretty all-in. If it gets a bunch of other benefits it may not stay safe, but we can play with it later.

I don't normally think about using it when playing compared to her other specials, but I can look at it for an assist! Time will tell.

Actually, I'm going to not respond to too much balance stuff just yet because she's still incomplete and I've had very little time to tune and balance her. I'll circle back to this stuff later! Home stretch on her remaining moves...

Sounds good, I'll wait until she has all her moves before I put out balance questions. :)

 

[rooby50]

So I'm not sure if Liam already talked about this but I feel like either Hunger should be visible even when benched or Umbrella's assists should be less impacted by it, ideally the former. Its kinda hard to know if, for example, you will be able to use your hungern rush assist when the Hunger gauge is visible only on point.

 

[acfan]

I think it would be very important for Umbrella's hunger state to be displayed while benched, in a simpler flat color over the pips.
Having both the player and the opponent know what state she's in helps both players!

It can transition from color to color when an assist is used, or when it naturally depletes at the slower rate.

Also, can we talk about possibly freezing Umbrella's hunger state when she's doing a happy birthday? She has different routes depending on her state, and that switching mid-birthday combo along with grab specials not working on assists means she'll almost always be starving after doing a full happy birthday combo.

Edit: It seems that the hunger level doesn't drop to starving during the combo, but will after finishing it in ravenous!

Edit 2: Okay I might just be wrong in my posting, it seems that hunger state combo stays during the doublesnap while the meter drains overall. My bad.

 

[Gurgerant]

View attachment 15918

I think it would be very important for Umbrella's hunger state to be displayed while benched, in a simpler flat color over the pips.
Having both the player and the opponent know what state she's in helps both players!

It can transition from color to color when an assist is used, or when it naturally depletes at the slower rate.

Also, can we talk about possibly freezing Umbrella's hunger state when she's doing a happy birthday? She has different routes depending on her state, and that switching mid-birthday combo along with grab specials not working on assists means she'll almost always be starving after doing a full happy birthday combo.

i feel like it would be worth mentioning that having a flat color would make life a lot easier for hearing impaired players such as myself who can't neccesarily pick up on sound cues when skullgirls is being as hectic as it is. listening for audio cues can be super difficult when noises are already getting jumbled. i imagine it's only worse for players with cochlear implants. a visual cue would be a lot more effective in almost every circumstance.

 

[Nuuance]

still hoping fullness meter doesn’t drain ASAP after throw & rather right after they get up. Still 1/3 is basically gone by wake up. And lastly option to keep ‘chewing‘ when grabbing finishes a character. Right now it can’t. Lastly the bobblin bubble, can the bubble actually start closer to umbrella; she has to do an awkward run up jump or double jump. Can’t super jump on it either right after. Jumping on it straight out would be nice!

extra: if throw ends up tossing someone *onto* a puddle, can it stun as well?

(and thanks for mini-pump on ravenous, very helpful)

 

[Chrono_Tata]

A minor nitpick and possibly something the devs are considering already? But I'd like to see a more distinctive visual cue to differentiate between the big bubble from Bobbin' and the small bubble from Ptooie and her super. The smaller bubble doing damage while the bigger bubble not directly interacting with the opponent seems counter-intuitive.

Maybe some kind of energy glow on the smaller bubble that communicates the fact that it is a damaging projectile would help? (With the narrative reason being that it's imbued with Umbrella's Skullgirl energy or something, to explain why a water bubble can do damage.)

It's not super important since both types of bubbles can be differentiated from their sizes, but a clear visual cue regarding their properties would be helpful to new players and casual viewers I believe.

 

[fayestra]

I mentioned this in the maincord yesterday but I think it's worth bringing up here: Umbrella's moves and mechanics are getting to feel bloated and disjointed with how many new types of objects are getting added (from bubbles, to eyes to puddles and more) and how some moves are having to awkwardly juggle multiple of them at once. It feels silly that there's a new type of bubble for the two moves in this update instead of expanding more on the many other mechanics Umbrella already has. It feels like she's being pulled in too many directions at once without much cohesion between them.

Right now her Level 1 has two different objects exclusive to it, the eyes and aegis, her puddles don't have much use outside of being a combo tool, and her new 214LP feels like it's trying to be two moves at once with spending hunger but also eating without needing contact and spawning a projectile but if that projectile's active you can't eat, and it all feels really messy. Like trying to go for a "two birds with one stone" approach but with too many birds and too few stones.

I feel like Umbrella could benefit from just shelving some of these ideas and focus on developing and refining others. Like if you compare someone like Venom in GG, he's a very complicated and technical character, but you can summarize his pool ball mechanic with the different ways of setting up projectiles and the different ways to interact with them after they've been set up. The complicated, technical part comes from the depth and flexibility of this single mechanic, whereas Umbrella has a giant pile of less developed mechanics. There's been plenty of good changes to add more to already existing abilities (I love the new bubble jump, and the 5hp reflect is a really fun idea) but I can't help but feel that a lot of potential is at risk if further updates aren't focused on pulling things together with clearer goals on where to end up.

Personally, I think that Aegis is fine and can be kept as is, small bubbles and puddles could get axed, and then have the focus be on the large Bubbles, Eyes and Hunger meter, with new ways to set up and interact with these three elements being able to fill the gaps of the 2 removed elements. Eyes could replace the small bubbles as a projectile, potentially working like a Napalm Shot where it has a projectile hit that then spawns an eye on contact. I also heard a suggestion on acfan's stream earlier today where someone said that she could get a move to spawn a Bubble in mid air like Dizzy can, as a way to either get a quick pop on the way down or as a slower, telegraphed double jump. The butterfly slurp could be repurposed into purely an eating move, which could give some more room to get the food bar needed to spawn a bubble or projectile without having to be limited by the bubble like before. Streamline her mechanics and cut some out so that what's left over has more room to breathe and more time to be given depth and flexibility.

 

[MadWolfDead]

I've been loving Umbrella and the beta so far, I have a few suggestions though
I think Umbrella's 5mp assist should be the x2 button press version, it'd provide characters with some cool routes and utility, being a lockdown assist or an attack with a lot of hit stun, depending on the hunger level. The lunge forward added in the past update would make it even better. Even if it doesn't end up being an amazing assist, it's nice to have. We got Annie Knuckle x2, can we get this?

With the introduction of the 214 bubble jump, I think the bubble spawned should be either a bit closer to brella to let her jump instantly after spawning it, or Brella should be able to jump on it instantly after spawning, something that lets her jump without running after the bubble a little, it'd give her access to the mechanic much easier.

Last one is to make the puddles visually bigger and to make the hit detection for the modified moves bigger, they feel quite awkward to use right now because positioning has to be super precise, though I haven't really messed around with puddles tooooo much so maybe this isn't that good of a change.

Brella's shaping up to be a really fun character, love Hungern man, good job dev team