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Umbrella Alpha Gameplay Discussion Thread

winnie

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Been playing the new patch for a while and I have to say, I love it. Umbrella's glaring weaknesses have been pretty much snuffed out and so far she doesn't seem to overpowered by any of the changes. She is no longer forced to approach thanks to the L bubble change to build hunger instead of go even and now that she can use special moves in starving she doesn't feel like the worst character in the game during that state. Having access to 2 bubbles at once makes her a threat at range and due to their weird angles they can be used to close in on zoners as well. Overall she feels like a real character now in all game states not just when you are hitting them and that's a good place to be.

Now for my thoughts on some of the things I have heard are too strong.

H bubble passing though other projectiles:
imo this should stay as is. Its a very powerful tool that basically says you have to deal with this if you're in range of the bubble but that being said the range isn't that far and is moves very slow giving you plenty of time to deal with it. I feel like there hasn't been a scenario presented where it truly feels like to much and it should remain this way until something presents itself.

Combo damage is really high:
From all of my combo testing I can say for sure this character has some of the highest damage in the game. Any time she can get full hits of salt grinder her damage skyrockets to well over 8k on her own. This allows her to get easy 2 touch kills on dhc in similar to Annie and Painwheel. Even when she cant get full hits of salt grinder she still has average to above average damage depending on how much hunger meter she is at. So far she doesn't do anything too crazy like 1 touch for 2 bars but its definitely something to keep in mind. I will try my best to find anything broken about her damage before release as I don't think anything needs to be changed yet but you never know with a character that has this much combo poetical.

To close this out I just want to say if this was the last patch before she released I would be happy with what she can and cant do as I feel she is in a really good spot right now.
 

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I've been playing Umbrella a lot in this week and I think she needs a small power shift, these are my suggestions:

Overstuffed Umbrella
- SMALL damage reduction overall
- Damage buff to Hungern Rush (to be more in line with Slurp 'n' Slide)
- small sHP hitstop increase

Puddles
- QoL request - Better usability against Big Band in corner.

fLP
- Small startup reduction
- On-hit send people more downwards
- Umbrella has a lot of problems to deal with people above her, fLP is too slow (even in Ravenous), and if it hits, she has problem to convert of.

fHP
- Uncharged hits overhead
- Please

cHP
- Small hitbox increase forward in the first hit
- To guarantee the hit after Salt Grinder, right now it whiffs against some characters.

Bobblin' Bubble
- I think it should change the startup/recovery across hungry.
- Also, the startup/recovery reduction in Satiated/Ravenous would help her to deal with space control characters.

Wish Maker
- Bugfix? Deals 0 damage but adds 20 undizzy.

Retina Reflector: Lens
- 236PP always shot at close range and let her choose the distance on the P held button, like the first version.
- OR keep as xP+xP, but I think LPMP = close range / MPHP = medium range / LPHP = long range should be better

Reversal Retina Reflector:
- Stay at 623PP OR move to 236KK (and move Under the Water to 214KK)

I think Umbrella is hella fun but she has a lot of problems to deal with the neutral game, she has some tools but some of them are way too predictable — but thats okay, if she manage to get the hit, she hits really hard.
 

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I have one small gripe with the consistent hunger on assist change:
While this has allowed Umbrella to have bubble assists become significantly more viable, especially since she can throw out overstuffed L and H bubbles, it also got rid of some gameplans that manipulate the hunger changes. With non-bubble assists like 6HP landing enough hits, even on block, reducing Umbrella's hunger people could take advantage and have her come in (DHC, incoming, tag) Ravenous, which also allowed cool setups like stagger -> Double Puddle -DHC> Feeding Time alongside the nice benefit of coming in in a more advantageous hunger state. In addition, the change to L bubble granting hunger on any usage would also allow this ramp towards overstuffed, letting Umbrella get more powerful bubbles as an assist with also the ability to DHC in Overstuffed.
I wish there was a way to allow people to manage Umbrella hunger as an assist without having to rely on changing it on DHC or after tag, but the current benefits of the assist change are hard to argue against, especially for making Wish Maker so viable as an assist.

Perhaps having punch moves still reduce hunger on hit and having hunger manipulating moves (butterfly from L) still activate, but not have it possible for pips to be lost through bubbles. This would allow hunger management gameplans to exist while teams who simply want normal assists (Wishmaker, Hungern Rush) can remain the way they are now.

It's still a minor gripe, so it'll be fine if it stays the way it is.
 

winnie

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I don't if this is better for general beta discussion as it involves both Umbrella and Double but ill post it here.

True quality of life change, make under the weather and cat heads spawn a consistent pattern when opponent is in hitstun. It is really annoying when comboing with these 2 supers because of the inconsistency of the spawn patterns. Some combos drop just because you got a bad spawn and there is no way to visually tell when this is going to happen. This has always been a problem with Double though she doesn't use cat heads for combos as much anymore but in Umbrella's case ending combos with under the weather is currently her best option and having the bubbles do random amounts of damage and hitstun is a problem.
 

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this may be a batshit crazy idea but it also may be galactic brain

You know how Umbrella can shoot out her own M bubbles and the point character can hit them to pop them?

hear me out

what if bella could reflect her own m bubble assist if she popped it with reflector

yes im feeling slightly evil today
 

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Double posting after playing more Umbrella:

I do think on a more serious note that her slide and her DP should be qcf motions. I think the one thing I found initially confusing playing her was that her specials seemed all over the place without there being like levels of power to them compared to almost everyone else.

I feel with salt grinder being qcf LP, slide could be QCF MP, and DP could be QCF HP. The charges and inputs just seem at the moment to not make too much sense, and The more I use her the more I feel she shouldn’t be a charge character? I’m not sure if others share this feeling.

I’d also be super curious on how powerful she would be in a build where command grab is also just a QCF/QCB input.
 

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Double posting after playing more Umbrella:

I do think on a more serious note that her slide and her DP should be qcf motions. I think the one thing I found initially confusing playing her was that her specials seemed all over the place without there being like levels of power to them compared to almost everyone else.

I feel with salt grinder being qcf LP, slide could be QCF MP, and DP could be QCF HP. The charges and inputs just seem at the moment to not make too much sense, and The more I use her the more I feel she shouldn’t be a charge character? I’m not sure if others share this feeling.

I’d also be super curious on how powerful she would be in a build where command grab is also just a QCF/QCB input.
was saying this from day one, it feels like the only reason she's a charge character is just because of the flavor behind her sister being a charge character aswell
 

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At sonic, more inter-activity between characters in general apart from usual stuff would be cool.

and yup gotta say the charge inputs feels a bit redundant w/Band, para and Bella already implementing them. genuinely want to try simple inputs. Her movement is kinda limited enough. Also can we make 6hp an overhead. It’s odd to me it’s not. And charged version? can it do something a bit more special like be more plus?

secondly I missed the simplicity of one button holds for retina reflector. If there’s a reason why that wasn’t feasible I missed it. (still think DP should just be DP motion to prevent overeasy mashing)

Lastly level 3…it’s already limited spacially…by your meter & for most part cannot DHC into (not to mention opponents gonna be looking for it). Would rather have any level 3 regardless of kill or not increase ravenous duration. After getting a big taste, lorewise, hungern would be more impatient to eat more. On kill just seems OD. We have such a dope character, don’t want to limit a tight mechanic like that — 3 bars is a lot. However On kill, if that had a small interesting bonus I could appreciate that.
 
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At sonic, more inter-activity between characters in general apart from usual stuff would be cool.

and yup gotta say the charge inputs feels a bit redundant w/Band, para and Bella already implementing them. genuinely want to try simple inputs. Her movement is kinda limited enough. Also can we make 6hp an overhead. It’s odd to me it’s not. And charged version? can it do something a bit more special like be more plus?

secondly I missed the simplicity of one button holds for retina reflector. If there’s a reason why that wasn’t feasible I missed it. (still think DP should just be DP motion to prevent overeasy mashing)

Lastly level 3…it’s already limited spacially…by your meter & for most part cannot DHC into. Would rather have any level 3 regardless of kill or not increase ravenous duration. After getting a big taste, lorewise, hungern would be more impatient to eat more. On kill just seems OD. We have such a dope character, don’t want to limit a tight mechanic like that — 3 bars is a lot. However On kill, if that had a small interesting bonus I could appreciate that.
Seconded on level 3 increasing ravenous. Its hardly noticeable and pretty difficult to kill straight up with it.

If you make me kill someone with level 3, highkey I’m trying to see half of my hunger meter instantly be ravenous lmaooo
 

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yeah

& at risk of reaching, feel like 2 extra pips would be fine seeing that doing two level 3's (6 bars) from Umbrella in one match seems like a tall order & all her eating moves needed in many combos move her into normal/overstuffed. At the very least I think it'd be healthy to try. Even having played triv here & there, i only remember seeing robo install once a match. Not twice...and w/as many resets as he does, id assume his meter gain would be more generous. Thats meter not used for DHCs, safety, alpha counters, etc. not to speak for anyone but myself -- let the level 3 be substantial
 
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Double posting after playing more Umbrella:

I do think on a more serious note that her slide and her DP should be qcf motions. I think the one thing I found initially confusing playing her was that her specials seemed all over the place without there being like levels of power to them compared to almost everyone else.

I feel with salt grinder being qcf LP, slide could be QCF MP, and DP could be QCF HP. The charges and inputs just seem at the moment to not make too much sense, and The more I use her the more I feel she shouldn’t be a charge character? I’m not sure if others share this feeling.

I’d also be super curious on how powerful she would be in a build where command grab is also just a QCF/QCB input.
I would also love to see her charged inputs changed to QC inputs with how her current build is set up. I feel Umbrella having to hold charge kinda trips her up in a lot of situations and makes playing her neutral against most characters feel really awkward and limiting in a not so fun way. I also feel it makes going for things like her 6LP and 6HP anti airs feel way riskier then they should be.
 

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Why is bubble super QCF KK but normal bubble specials QCB KK
can the bubble super go to QCB for consistency?
ps I'm all for removing her charges
 
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I feel as a QOL change aegis reflector should either keep the opponent in additional hitstun or have a slight pull in effect so that the hits while its traveling always works. Theres many instances where they get hit by the first 2 hits of the super and then just drop out while standing. It’s really weird.

The second QOL change would be make DHCing OUT of reflector a bit easier. Sometimes I think the timing is when you see the “FLASH” part of the super and it’s not. It’d be cool if once it got to that part, the dhc didnt just totally disappear if you dhc’d too early, because chances are if you did retina reflector instead of flash, you want the mirror out always.
 
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I feel as a QOL change aegis reflector should either keep the opponent in additional hitstun or have a slight pull in effect so that the hits while its traveling always works. Theres many instances where they get hit by the first 2 hits of the super and then just drop out while standing. It’s really weird.

The second QOL change would be make DHCing OUT of reflector a bit easier. Sometimes I think the timing is when you see the “FLASH” part of the super and it’s not. It’d be cool if once it got to that part, the dhc didnt just totally disappear if you dhc’d too early, because chances are if you did retina reflector instead of flash, you want the mirror out always.
also sidenote, similarly eliza LoS, making early DHC window right when she jumps out her chest but hasnt made contact yet a little easier. right now at least for myself it’s very Tough timing that visual cue, and only time I can dhc is after bouncing off the opponent. referring to being really close or right up on them. Not saying impossible but it’s incredibly easy to screw up.
 
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Finally got around to playing Umbrella after the latest patch.

Her voices are honestly amazing, but can be a bit hard to hear at times.

I'm late to the party on this - by like a week - but since I made this account specifically to weigh in on Umbrella's inputs, I feel kinda obligated to continue weighing in on it.

I agree that her punch specials being all different inputs feels a little... wack, but I disagree with the solution to fix that being removing her charge inputs. Instead, I suggest making all her punch specials charges, for the following reasons:

First off, I like charge characters.

Secondly, there's this certain... kinetic quality to Umbrella's moveset, and controlling it, that I don't think is quite matched by other characters in the game. You hit LP and LK to chomp the opponent like the buttons were teeth, you hit left and right to grind the opponent like your control stick is teeth, you hold the button on her jumping kicks to extend them and change her air momentum like the buttons were... something that isn't teeth. There's a lot of moves where the controls aren't just "hit the button and she does it", but instead the way in which you hit the button connects to how the move feels.

I think charge inputs gel with that kinetic feeling more than quarter-circles do. Because, well... quarter circles are the special move equivalent of "hit a button and she does it". Or maybe, to put it another way, holding her normals and then releasing them is the normal move equivalent of being a charge character, so she may as well actually be a charge character too?

Thirdly, while I might maybe see what you mean regarding Umbrella not feeling like a charge character - although, okay, I just spent two paragraphs explaining why her normals make her feel like a charge character, so maybe I don't - I definitely think her moves feel like charge moves. Salt Grinder screws me up already. Tongue Twister might be okay, but with how big it feels it being a charge move makes equal or greater sense to me. Her flash kick move seems a little too slow to feel right as a z-motion or qcb (and I know I've argued for it to be changed to a sonic boom, but it'd still be a charge move then). The real problem is her [4]6MP move; it definitely doesn't strike me as something that would feel right on qcf or even qcb. Heck, it's basically Totsugeki in aesthetics if not function, so it being anything else would be odd to me.
 

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Would it possible to add a feature where Umbrella doesn't eat the butterfly after using Cutie Ptooie by maybe holding down LP or something? I find my self not wanting to use the move that much because it fills up my hunger meter to high when I want it stay low or keep it in ravenous.
 

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Hello, I am back and just catching up on everything posted before the holidays.

I have one small gripe with the consistent hunger on assist change:
While this has allowed Umbrella to have bubble assists become significantly more viable, especially since she can throw out overstuffed L and H bubbles, it also got rid of some gameplans that manipulate the hunger changes.

Yeah, it's a double edged sword for some game plans, but I think it's easier to understand and use her assists using the new paradigm. I don't think there's a great way to get the best of both worlds without a ton of crazy exceptions, so I'm inclined to leave it as is for now.

Her voices are honestly amazing, but can be a bit hard to hear at times.
The current VO is a rough first pass, so this will be improved soon. We've been working on an audio balance pass and also adjusting her voice lines for some moves that we didn't have time to tune before.

Would it possible to add a feature where Umbrella doesn't eat the butterfly after using Cutie Ptooie by maybe holding down LP or something? I find my self not wanting to use the move that much because it fills up my hunger meter to high when I want it stay low or keep it in ravenous.
While I'm not necessarily opposed to this we don't have art for Umbrella standing up from that pose without eating the butterfly. I'd have to try to find frames from other animations that work, and I'm not sure if they will work or not.

///

I expect there will be damage tuning, and Salt Grinder is likely going to require more hunger to get higher damage.
Bubbles will also likely see some tweaking, I don't think it needs to phase through everything but the point character to be effective.

///

Back to the input conversation again... moving Slurp N Slide and Hungern Rush to QCF changes a lot. The flash kick is no longer a flash kick, for the pros and cons that come with it. Being able to unblockable-while-rising anyone who jumps near you after whiffing 5MP, or micro dashing into 2LK, is pretty dumb. The long distance high reward (in Ravenous certainly) sliding move no longer requiring thought or constraints that come with a charge motion is also pretty silly on paper.
 

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Can we have overstuffed sHP [4]6MP to not whiff into Parasoul in corner? Please
 

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Can we have overstuffed sHP [4]6MP to not whiff into Parasoul in corner? Please
this, lets just hope that umbrella doesn't get gutted like some other characters have been
 

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I know we need a little more time to let changes to roll out but I want to say my opinion:

1. THANK YOU FOR THE M BUBBLE STARTUP REDUCTION.

2. A "visual warning" when Hungern dont eat the butterfly in 214LK would help a lot, like a color flash (similar to Fukua when fireball returns to her);

3. 236PP feels really good to vacuum people in the ground, but I miss the Tongue Twister > Reflector > dash fHP conversion, can we have this back?
- She deserve that back tbh, the only way to convertmeterless is in the corner, she spends 1 meter and right now her damage is more fair than before.

4. I think the DP changes were way too harsh on her. Unlike Parasoul, her dp has a bigger dead zone, it's way more easy to punish and (imo, the most important thing) it doesn't hit both sides
- I think it use a better tunning here, for example, having full invul but low damage/high scaling;

5. Instead of using all puddles in sMK/cMK/jMK, maybe using only 1 puddle at once feels a better way to let her having high damage.

6. The lvl3 change feels really good, thanks again.

Small QoL request:
I know the eyes inside the bubbles make the character feels more cool, but some people feel way too much uncomfortable with this, can we have a launch option that disables the eyes?
 

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In terms of Umbrella, I have some serious mixed feelings.

On one hand, all of the quality of life as well as the ensuring proper function (not getting hit by projectiles out of Reflector) is quite nice, and Puddled Slurp as well as Bobblin being real quick to set up seem very interesting in terms of her routing and conversions. Overstuffed Under the Weather also looks to be really useful and might land some really cool conversions.

However, I have two main gripes:

Hunger Damage Change: I get what's being done here, Umbrella actually just deleted your health bar on mixup, poke, or a well timed Tongue Twister. However, by locking this damage behind Ravenous, its actually just forcing Umbrella into narrower gameplans by giving Umbrellas far less liberty in what hunger states they want to stay in in order to do well. Want to stay in Satiated in order to get into overstuffed for nice damage? That's gone. Want to stay in overstuffed in order to have access to better bubbles and serious Counterhit damage? The nerfs to wish maker and not having a decent Salt Grinder in the combo ensure that you're probably just better off building towards Ravenous. This change just makes Umbrella about building towards Ravenous, and while its nice its easier to do so, being funneled into it doesn't exactly allow for player creativity. I would've rather had greater scaling or damage reduction evenly across the board, because at least it would've meant I'm not being screamed at to just build toward Ravenous.

It also highlights Ravenous's main downside: combos after Tongue Twister (if stagger is used) and Salt Grinder prevents you from being in overstuffed to capitalize on cashing out. The idea of "cashing out" was best performed at around 4 pips in Satiated due to where Salt Grinder and Tongue Twister left you after 5 chomps.

Wish Maker - This projectile WAS a ridiculous option. It passed through all ways to block it (except Bella reflector), and essentially had no counterplay besides jumping over it or punishing Umbrella for throwing it out due to its extremely long startup/recovery. However, it was also a primary neutral tool, allowing Umbrella to make up for her sluggish movement and Satiated button frame data by giving her Peacock bomb insurance if she got hit. The idea was to set up WIsh Maker and another bubble, go in, lose wish maker, retreat, and set it up again. Given Umbrella's already mediocre pressure beyond strike throw, it was essential in making sure an enemy couldn't just roll over her by giving them something to constantly worry about.

However, by allowing it to be countered and blocked by pretty much everything AS WELL as popping it when Umbrella gets hit in neutral, now it has LITERALLY so niche a usage in neutral. It doesn't insure anything, it doesn't pressure well, and giving that "doesn't get removed on hit" to Ptooie doesn't solve the fact that Ptooie is easily avoidable and harder to convert off of as well. Now wish maker is just gonna be a routing tool, not even a viable assist, as just about anything can block and get rid of it. Having assists block it is fine, but I don't think just about any other projectile should pop it.
 
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I want the voices of "Retina Reflector" and "Contact Lens" to be easier to understand faster.
Currently, it can be determined at the same time as the launch, so I would like to know in advance like Bandwagon Rushdown.
 

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I'm not sure if its known but Umbrellas Slurp and Slide doesnt add undizzy to the opponent anymore. Not sure if thats intentional or not.
 

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I can't say much but this seems like a ridiculous option to even have for 1 bar + the bubbles have kd + assist protects you from most attempted escapes like gregor

I think maybe the best nerf to this kind of setup would maybe be removing mbobble being popped by utw if this gets popularized

this is just a theory so take things with grain of salt

 

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In terms of Umbrella, I have some serious mixed feelings.

On one hand, all of the quality of life as well as the ensuring proper function (not getting hit by projectiles out of Reflector) is quite nice, and Puddled Slurp as well as Bobblin being real quick to set up seem very interesting in terms of her routing and conversions. Overstuffed Under the Weather also looks to be really useful and might land some really cool conversions.

However, I have two main gripes:

Hunger Damage Change: I get what's being done here, Umbrella actually just deleted your health bar on mixup, poke, or a well timed Tongue Twister. However, by locking this damage behind Ravenous, its actually just forcing Umbrella into narrower gameplans by giving Umbrellas far less liberty in what hunger states they want to stay in in order to do well. Want to stay in Satiated in order to get into overstuffed for nice damage? That's gone. Want to stay in overstuffed in order to have access to better bubbles and serious Counterhit damage? The nerfs to wish maker and not having a decent Salt Grinder in the combo ensure that you're probably just better off building towards Ravenous. This change just makes Umbrella about building towards Ravenous, and while its nice its easier to do so, being funneled into it doesn't exactly allow for player creativity. I would've rather had greater scaling or damage reduction evenly across the board, because at least it would've meant I'm not being screamed at to just build toward Ravenous.

It also highlights Ravenous's main downside: combos after Tongue Twister (if stagger is used) and Salt Grinder prevents you from being in overstuffed to capitalize on cashing out. The idea of "cashing out" was best performed at around 4 pips in Satiated due to where Salt Grinder and Tongue Twister left you after 5 chomps.

Wish Maker - This projectile WAS a ridiculous option. It passed through all ways to block it (except Bella reflector), and essentially had no counterplay besides jumping over it or punishing Umbrella for throwing it out due to its extremely long startup/recovery. However, it was also a primary neutral tool, allowing Umbrella to make up for her sluggish movement and Satiated button frame data by giving her Peacock bomb insurance if she got hit. The idea was to set up WIsh Maker and another bubble, go in, lose wish maker, retreat, and set it up again. Given Umbrella's already mediocre pressure beyond strike throw, it was essential in making sure an enemy couldn't just roll over her by giving them something to constantly worry about.

However, by allowing it to be countered and blocked by pretty much everything AS WELL as popping it when Umbrella gets hit in neutral, now it has LITERALLY so niche a usage in neutral. It doesn't insure anything, it doesn't pressure well, and giving that "doesn't get removed on hit" to Ptooie doesn't solve the fact that Ptooie is easily avoidable and harder to convert off of as well. Now wish maker is just gonna be a routing tool, not even a viable assist, as just about anything can block and get rid of it. Having assists block it is fine, but I don't think just about any other projectile should pop it.
Played more, wanted to add on:

Still sticking with my opinions on both, but wish maker isn't entirely useless. Every one in a while (about 10% the rate as before) it lands on someone who does a falling button mistakenly. My opinion on having wish maker pop on hit now also extends to bobblin' too, because there were situations where that gave insurance that are gone too.

My confusion only grows, because these bubbles didn't even solve her neutral, and she still had heavy counterplay that made her the "damage specialist that sucks at opening people" character. She relies so heavily on strike-throw that its very easy to just get jumped out of half the time.
Now, that strike-throw is even worse, because she needs to be in ravenous for any cash out of hunger to mean anything.

Speaking of Ravenous, the hunger damage changes didn't even solve her stupid high damage issue, they only locked it behind a specific, restrictive gameplan that is just "get to ravenous, be in ravenous, cash out, get to ravenous again." It's only worth going for Tongue Twister resets during Ravenous, otherwise it takes a hell of a lot more to make up for the loss in damage. This Ravenous reliance is only made worse with the assist changes. Umbrella used to have great assists to make up for her clunky movement, weak mixups (that all boil down to strike-throw) and neutral, yet now most of them are ruled out because of yet ANOTHER gameplan restriction: "get to ravenous, tag out." Now, the only remaining viable assist is 6hp, as it doesn't rely on the same scaling issues or hunger changes as the other assists did. Gating Umbrella's playstyle and role seems to be a theme throughout this update.

Noticing more of the patch notes, even more odd things show up:
Why did the gap between Retina hits need to be reduced?
Why did the jHP timing get changed?
Why did Hungern Rush, still a relatively slow DP with heavy recovery, have its throw invuln removed?
Why did sHP get its projectile invuln removed, as if it was powerful in the first place?
Was delayed Grinder so bad that it NEEDED to be removed entirely?

These changes probably don't gut Umbrella (like she was as powerful as Double, Pea, or Annie to begin with), but they make her even more niche and far more unfun than she used to be. There's a specific gameplan you have to stick close to or fail miserably, hunger states besides Ravenous are now more or less irrelevant, she's harder to incorporate into a team without making it just about her, and her issues in neutral are even worse than before with how Ravenous reliant she is. Simply having pre-patch Umbrella with the new mechanics incorporated into this update (new UtW, puddled slurp, updated Retina) would've been the ideal version of her, allowing Ravenous to have better routes through new additions as well as Satiated and Overstuffed having their place through the way things (bubbles, damage, etc) were before.
 

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I'd like to add a few Umbrella related things to the pile here-

I enjoyed having both wishmaker and bobblin' both on the screen as a pressure tool, and having wishmaker pop bobblin' isn't something I'm a fan of.

5mp x2 would benefit greatly with a "vacuum" effect that guarantees a confirm if you hit someone with a short distance assist (L bomber), and have the very tail end of 5mp hit a little but then have 2hp whiff super sucks (this happened on sage's stream a ton and I can get evidence if need be).

The amount of active frames on salt grinder is quite a change, maybe 3f would be better so that you don't get punished for not following the grind rhythm exactly? (Comparing this to beat extend shake)

Echoing what nope.avi said earlier, it's a bit disappointing to see Umbrella's gameplan change to being in red mode is the most optimal. I found her previous iteration gave you the ability to express yourself as a player- yellow/ blue for heavier damage threat and more bubble play, red for really fast mixups and being reset to death.

Rush losing its full invuln isn't something I'm a fan of.

Wishmaker bubble going back to old properties but only as an assist could help her team building a lot.

Slurp getting a buff sliding across popped bubbles is an awesome idea and I'm jazzed it got added. :)
---

Going to play more before saying more!
 
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Bobbles Popped while in RAVENOUS should not knockdown, but leave the opponent rising up so that they uncombo, it would give the mode more expressive setplay and open up more reset routes and promote more of a "Mix Up Mode" for the character.

Edit: Instead of ravenous i said overstuffed lol sorry
 
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Bobbles Popped while in RAVENOUS should not knockdown, but leave the opponent rising up so that they uncombo, it would give the mode more expressive setplay and open up more reset routes and promote more of a "Mix Up Mode" for the character.

Edit: Instead of ravenous i said overstuffed lol sorry
It might lead to certain conversions no longer being possible, but I'm open to experimenting with it provided say more than one bobblin/same type bubble can be sent out at once so these sort of setups can be made. I never really understood the peacock bomb style lock on her bubbles anyway, given how long they take to set up.
 

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Heads up - I moved clearly Umbrella related posts to this thread so as to not derail Umbrella conversation with that other, conversation.

@Calexe, FYI I couldn't move your post because it combined Umbrella things with a bunch of non Umbrella things.
 

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Quick note - happy to have Cutie Ptooie and Wish Maker not pop Bobblin' Bubble - that change was just an artifact of bug fixing bubbles not going away on hit and not interacting with other projectiles and assists correctly. Please let me know how you folks prefer it.

Also, I see players talking about jHP as if something changed about it that impacts combos? The only thing that changed was the blockstun - everything else should be the same. If you see something else - that would be a bug.
 

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Sorry if this had already been addressed at some point, but I'm just wondering, from the 2021-09-01 beta patch note:

Temporarily disabled Umbrella's additional taunt effect that would adjust her Special Move A functionality. This will likely return later.

Which, iirc, was that Tongue Twister would become a hitgrab for one time after performing her taunt. Is this behaviour still slated to return or has the idea been scrapped?

(Cause I was thinking it would also be cool if her taunt also makes her Level 3 a hitgrab for one time)
 

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<message ahead>
I think it's unlikely she will receive an impactful taunt effect so late in her release. Perhaps something we can experiment with in the future, but for now, I don't think so.
 
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Umbrella had all her tools now so I want to update my thoughts on the character. There is a lot to talk about so I'll try to keep each point short.

I'll start with the negatives then move to the positives.



Damage change: Overall I think the lower damage she has now is fine except for in overstuffed. It feels like there is little reason to go for an overstuffed combo unless it finishes of a character and having relatively similar damage in overstuffed compared to other modes (except when you get full salt grinder hits) makes high hunger feel weak.


Overstuffed overall: Due to how slow normals become in overstuffed Umbrella becomes more reliant on special moves. This is fine except her DP is pretty bad, slide is only strong with a puddle and most of the time bubble zoning takes you out of overstuffed too quickly to really take advantage of lk bubble KD. Now all of this is actually fine and I kind of like the design personal but the thing I find most counter intuitive is how you get access to overstuffed to begin with. Currently the only way to get significant damage with OS is to get a sweet spot max salt grinder. Trying to go from Rav to OS just doesn't seem worth it and with how necessary Rav feels for her mix up potential OS gets left on the sidelines. What I would like to see is making it easier to get from Rav to OS so you don't have to choose between one or the other. Maybe making the hunger bar have one less pip of yellow would do it or make DP give 1.5 hunger instead of 1. I just think it would be cool to get reward for playing around 1.5 hunger by letting you go full overstuffed while juggling around Max Rav and Yellow.


Wishmaker changes: The changes to wishmaker to pop against assists and clash with projectiles is really bad for Umbrella. The old version gave her a tool that said "this is my zone now deal with it" and given the nature of the character's neutral and the low reward from hitting with it I felt like it was a pretty fair tool. With the way it works now it has very fringe uses and only feels useful in a 1v1 mu. If anyone want to complain about it where are a number of other characters who get the same zoning ability with faster moves. The only place this move becomes close to too strong is as an assist but due to the damage scaling, low blockstun and 0 damage hit I feel that having to adapt your gameplay to combat it is perfectly reasonable.


Set up assists: Currently I feel that the reward for setting hunger to a specific level to make an assist better is too low. I personally don't like having to set up an assist at all so I don't really have much to say about this. It just feels like currently with the wishmaker changes Umbrella doesn't have a strong assist and their is little reason to play her as a support even with her strong DHC synergy.



Now on to the positives.

Jump MP is great: Now with how far forward jMP can hit Umbrella has a strong gameplay against heavily airborne opponents. Before she had to commit to an anti air because of her weak air to air options but now she can consistently chase down flying characters. She also has interesting counter play to the button as well because she has no air special or super to fall back on if jMP whiffs. Overall I think it's in a really good spot now.


Puddle slide: This tool is so useful for her it's incredible. It can be a little hard to set up sometime but the reward is worth it and it really helps round out her kit.


Puddle kicks undizzy change: Is this is a bug? I didn't see any mention of it in the patch notes. So last I checked kicking a puddle with MK in a combo adds 20 undizzy where before it was adding 40. I like this change a lot because it lets Umbrella take full advantage of puddle kicking in combo where before it was mostly for adding damage at the beginning or end of a combo. If it gets changed back it's no big deal as it was fine before but I like the extra combo potential it brings and with the damage nurfs it doesn't seem too powerful so far.


Overall hunger management: Other than the OS problems I mentioned before I think hunger management is in a really good spot. The butterfly change help with the ability to juggle hunger levels the way you want to and it feels really well implemented from my perspective as someone who has been sticking with her since she first came to beta. Would be interested to hear how others feel about hunger manipulate especially from a newer players perspective.



The last thing I want to say for anyone who read through all my rambling is that I really feel like Umbrella is a complete character now. Sure there are a few things that could get tweaked here and there but overall she is very fun to play and I'm excited to see where she ends up on final release.
 
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Things that I want to add:

- Overstuffed M bubble should get a small damage increase, something around 700~750~800:
It's the most consistent and safe option to use hungry and do damage against all the cast, leaving the Slide loops to be a better option under Satiated and Ravenous.
That would also encourage people to go more Overstuffed over Ravenous.

- Salt Grinder assist needs a partial revert:
25% damage penalty for assist and active frames reduced really hurt Umbrella.
Overall, I think it's okay to let resource characters have another option to charge up what they need and finding a midterm for balance here is what most of people want for Salt Grinder.

- Tongue Twister, Salt Grinder and Hungern Rush didn't needed the "go to Ravenous" factor:
Umbrella neutral isnt that storng, she is very assist dependent and having this gameplan "go to Ravenous" was just a bad experience for me (and for other people too, I hope) overall.
This also affect her assists so much that is not even funny, please, get rid of this "go to Ravenous" wall

- Right now Wish Maker seems too niche to use
To me, personally, I don't mind WM having collision with other projectiles, but I do think it should trap assists that hit and only pop if Umbrella is throw (IMO it should be the same for M bubble);
It was her neutral tool and now people will call Brass or whatever and ignore the bubble.
A reminder that WM has a big recovery e deals no damage for 50% scaling, so we can't just compare it to L George.

- Retina Reflector should get bigger bounce vs air back
As I said earlier, I think it's okay to have resource options to convert of Tongue Twister/Throw (both Puddles and MPHP Retina)
Or, reducing recovery of this would be a better way to let her combos faster without touching conversions

- DP with full invul
Please

QoL stuff that I want:

- jLK
I would love to see more hitstun in the last jLK hit (precisely, the 9th jLK).
At least to link a light normal after, to help her optimize her routes with full undizzy

- Ravenous sMP and jHP building a bit more bar on hit

- Bigger puddles, for better interaction against Band and loops in midscreen

- Removing the option to not eat the butterfly if shes Starving with Cute Ptooie
Sometimes it happen, let the option be only under Ravenous/Satiated/Overstuffed

- fLP
Not a good anti-air due to startup and right now it's more a 'optimal button for routes' - I think it's okay to leave this way

- sHP
But I really want the reflect zone on her sHP to be a bit more taller and having the projectile invul back.
Also, some interactions with reflected projectiles are strange

- **edit** Small buffer normal after Slide
People still think I'm minus after this, let me punish better with a buffer
877670039099174963.webp

I think Umbrella right now is ok, but the previous one was perfect - I love the Slurp n' Slide change but I can't deny I'm pretty frustrated with Go To Ravenous wall right now
 

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Just to expand on earlier, I'm not sure what the right rhythm is for button grinding on salt grinder now and it's costing me some good damage since it ends prematurely.
 

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Something came to my attention while making a OS combo for Umbrella that I would love to see improved.

Slurp n Slide does not slide through the puddle if Umbrella is standing on the tip of he puddle even though she has both feet on the puddle. At first this doesn't seem super important except for the fact that 5MP and 5HP move her point super far forward and make it hard to use puddle slide in combos when canceling form these two buttons.

For example:
In this combo you have to fully back dash to make sure you don't move past the puddle before canceling into SnS which forces the use of OTG (which is fine) and make the combo really precise for no reason. It would be cool if the hitbox or whatever that triggers a puddle slide is expanded a little backwards so Umbrella can get a puddle slide as long as she has two feet on the puddle when she does the SnS.


The other thing I noticed is that [2]8Hp is kind of useless without a super cancel window and would be cool if it can cancel into super on hit or something. I used is as a finisher for this combo but there really isn't a reason to not just end the combo in 2Hk SnS instead. If its intended for her to have a bad reversal in OS that's fine but this move just doesn't do anything worth while in its current state. If its made this way so people can't delay a super cancel after it gets blocked for a revers frametrap then maybe we can change it so the super comes out pretty delayed or the move has low blockstun so the opponent can punish before she can hit the ground. There is also the ability to cut the super cancel window short like how Fortune DP cant be delay canceled while still giving plenty of time to punish when the reversal is blocked.
 

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Damage change: Overall I think the lower damage she has now is fine except for in overstuffed. It feels like there is little reason to go for an overstuffed
- Overstuffed M bubble should get a small damage increase, something around 700~750~800:
On the other Winnie just posted a combo doing 8K midscreen meterless from 2LK via Overstuffed damage. That's extremely high and it's EARLY days for her combo routing. I can't responsibly push Overstuffed damage further without her adjusting damage elsewhere. That could happen, but I'm not adding another 1K damage to her combos for no reason without doing anything else. (... and people may not like that "something else")

Puddle kicks undizzy change: Is this is a bug? I didn't see any mention of it in the patch notes. So last I checked kicking a puddle with MK in a combo adds 20 undizzy where before it was adding 40.
Ah good catch, this likely got adjusted in the refactor for removing puddle stacking - I'm cool with leaving it. Best place for 5MK puddle splash is early for a Tongue Twister combo usually where it wouldn't be adding Undizzy anyway.

most of the time bubble zoning takes you out of overstuffed too quickly to really take advantage of lk bubble KD
I don't fully agree, I think Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) should be enough to keep her in that state once you're already in it. I was planning on reducing the hunger build on Bobblin' (M Bubble) from 1 to 1/2 which will help.



Wish Maker

Wish Maker is not going to ignore projectiles and assist characters and stick around when Umbrella gets hit. I can see it doing one (1) of those things, but it's not going to do everything again. Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) is the insurance bubble while point now, they need different uses.

Bobblin'

People don't seem to like it being popped by Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) / Wish Maker (H Bubble), so I'm planning on removing that, I don't care either way. Is it fine to be popped by Under The Weather Bubbles? I think people got upset when that [UTW bubbles popping it] was adjusted last time. The simplest solution is to just make it projectile invincible.

Salt Grinder & Salt Grinder Assist


With a slight damage reduction, Satiated scaling penalty could stand to be removed and assist functionality could be closer to what it was before (Overstuffed scaling is staying). Such a damage change could make room for slight Overstuffed damage boosts, and I'm not concerned if Ravenous damage is lowered as a result since that state has enough going for it already. Satiated would also be more flexible for entering into Overstuffed without the damage penalty, which reduces the perceived feeling of being shoehorned into Ravenous.

...

Everything else, I'm pretty comfortable leaving in the "these are oddities and / or weaknesses that you need to play around or learn to adapt to" (at least for one patch) camp.



This would cause a desync between people who have eyes on and off. Currently those kind of launch options don't impact anything that would need to be synced via GGPO.
can we have a launch option that disables the eyes?



Good feedback! I'll see if I can do something.
Currently, it can be determined at the same time as the launch, so I would like to know in advance like Bandwagon Rushdown.



There may be misunderstanding about the change. The change was nerfing the actual active frames on the first bite that performs and starts the throw from 5F (oversight and insane for a hitgrab which cannot trade and is a giant ball of hitboxes) to, not that.
The amount of active frames on salt grinder is quite a change, maybe 3f would be better so that you don't get punished for not following the grind rhythm exactly? (Comparing this to beat extend shake)
 
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On the other Winnie just posted a combo doing 8K midscreen meterless from 2LK via Overstuffed damage. That's extremely high and it's EARLY days for her combo routing. I can't responsibly push Overstuffed damage further without her adjusting damage elsewhere. That could happen, but I'm not adding another 1K damage to her combos for no reason without doing anything else. (... and people may not like that "something else")


Ah good catch, this likely got adjusted in the refactor for removing puddle stacking - I'm cool with leaving it. Best place for 5MK puddle splash is early for a Tongue Twister combo usually where it wouldn't be adding Undizzy anyway.


I don't fully agree, I think Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) should be enough to keep her in that state once you're already in it. I was planning on reducing the hunger build on Bobblin' (M Bubble) from 1 to 1/2 which will help.



Wish Maker

Wish Maker is not going to ignore projectiles and assist characters and stick around when Umbrella gets hit. I can see it doing one (1) of those things, but it's not going to do everything again. Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) is the insurance bubble while point now, they need different uses.

Bobblin'

People don't seem to like it being popped by Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) / Wish Maker (H Bubble), so I'm planning on removing that, I don't care either way. Is it fine to be popped by Under The Weather Bubbles? I think people got upset when that [UTW bubbles popping it] was adjusted last time. The simplest solution is to just make it projectile invincible.

Salt Grinder & Salt Grinder Assist

With a slight damage reduction, Satiated scaling penalty could stand to be removed and assist functionality could be closer to what it was before (Overstuffed scaling is staying). Such a damage change could make room for slight Overstuffed damage boosts, and I'm not concerned if Ravenous damage is lowered as a result since that state has enough going for it already. Satiated would also be more flexible for entering into Overstuffed without the damage penalty, which reduces the perceived feeling of being shoehorned into Ravenous.

...

Everything else, I'm pretty comfortable leaving in the "these are oddities and / or weaknesses that you need to play around or learn to adapt to" (at least for one patch) camp.



This would cause a desync between people who have eyes on and off. Currently those kind of launch options don't impact anything that would need to be synced via GGPO.




Good feedback! I'll see if I can do something.




There may be misunderstanding about the change. The change was nerfing the actual active frames on the first bite that performs and starts the throw from 5F (oversight and insane for a hitgrab which cannot trade and is a giant ball of hitboxes) to, not that.
idk if you caught it on the discord but I'm for red damage grinder/twister reduction and keeping mbubble drain at 1 full pip, I enjoy dumping hunger very quickly in tandem with my assists to get to red then reset -> chew

also I very much pref bubbles being popped by utw for utw jail into drain to red
 
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Wish Maker

Wish Maker is not going to ignore projectiles and assist characters and stick around when Umbrella gets hit. I can see it doing one (1) of those things, but it's not going to do everything again. Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) is the insurance bubble while point now, they need different uses.


Bobblin'

People don't seem to like it being popped by Cutie Ptooie (L Bubble) / Wish Maker (H Bubble), so I'm planning on removing that, I don't care either way. Is it fine to be popped by Under The Weather Bubbles? I think people got upset when that [UTW bubbles popping it] was adjusted last time. The simplest solution is to just make it projectile invincible.
Having Wish Maker stay around when Umbrella's hit would be the way to go then, I think; projectiles and assists eating it would give opponents enough counterplay while still allowing her to have breathing room if you manage to get back to neutral. That would also discourage using it too heavily vs. zoners since obviously a satiated wish maker isn't reaching someone committed to zoning, and timing-dependent 5HP plus meter-locked anti-projectile tech give her a clear weakness/theme while still allowing her the tools to cover those weaknesses at a reasonable cost while solo.

and if Bobblin' becomes projectile invuln, UTW into Bubble Jump could give her a method of approach not gated by puddles and be a sort of panic-button "catch the zoner" tech if you can't get any ready or don't want to use the ones you prepped; while UTW would probably give her enough cover without disrupting the ability to spam Bobblin' for hunger management or UTW's defensive potency. Even though I'm a fan of having projectiles pop it atm (including by your own assists for funsies), it does feel a bit superfluous.


idk if you caught it on the discord but I'm for red damage grinder/twister reduction and keeping mbubble drain at 1 full pip, I enjoy dumping hunger very quickly in tandem with my assists to get to red then reset -> chew

Perhaps scaling hunger drain would help; 1.5 in overstuffed, 1 in satiated, 0.5 in ravenous maybe? using Bobblin' mid-combo keeps her locked at her current hunger state until the combo ends anyway so it shouldn't disrupt any existing tech. The extra drain from an overstuffed M-Bubble mirrors the extra gain from starving/ravenous L Bubble for consistency's sake and also hints at its use cases (hunger drain and/or extra damage).
UTW or Assist cover into Bobblin' exists if you absolutely need to drain hunger asap.

Slight Ravenous Grinder damage reduction could be fine, but doing it to Ravenous Tongue Twister as well feels a bit much, especially considering it's not feasible to confirm Full-screen Ravenous Grinder into Reflector into 6HP+Bobblin' loops anymore.
 
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