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Umbrella Alpha Gameplay Discussion Thread

winnie

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Been playing the new patch for a while and I have to say, I love it. Umbrella's glaring weaknesses have been pretty much snuffed out and so far she doesn't seem to overpowered by any of the changes. She is no longer forced to approach thanks to the L bubble change to build hunger instead of go even and now that she can use special moves in starving she doesn't feel like the worst character in the game during that state. Having access to 2 bubbles at once makes her a threat at range and due to their weird angles they can be used to close in on zoners as well. Overall she feels like a real character now in all game states not just when you are hitting them and that's a good place to be.

Now for my thoughts on some of the things I have heard are too strong.

H bubble passing though other projectiles:
imo this should stay as is. Its a very powerful tool that basically says you have to deal with this if you're in range of the bubble but that being said the range isn't that far and is moves very slow giving you plenty of time to deal with it. I feel like there hasn't been a scenario presented where it truly feels like to much and it should remain this way until something presents itself.

Combo damage is really high:
From all of my combo testing I can say for sure this character has some of the highest damage in the game. Any time she can get full hits of salt grinder her damage skyrockets to well over 8k on her own. This allows her to get easy 2 touch kills on dhc in similar to Annie and Painwheel. Even when she cant get full hits of salt grinder she still has average to above average damage depending on how much hunger meter she is at. So far she doesn't do anything too crazy like 1 touch for 2 bars but its definitely something to keep in mind. I will try my best to find anything broken about her damage before release as I don't think anything needs to be changed yet but you never know with a character that has this much combo poetical.

To close this out I just want to say if this was the last patch before she released I would be happy with what she can and cant do as I feel she is in a really good spot right now.
 

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I've been playing Umbrella a lot in this week and I think she needs a small power shift, these are my suggestions:

Overstuffed Umbrella
- SMALL damage reduction overall
- Damage buff to Hungern Rush (to be more in line with Slurp 'n' Slide)
- small sHP hitstop increase

Puddles
- QoL request - Better usability against Big Band in corner.

fLP
- Small startup reduction
- On-hit send people more downwards
- Umbrella has a lot of problems to deal with people above her, fLP is too slow (even in Ravenous), and if it hits, she has problem to convert of.

fHP
- Uncharged hits overhead
- Please

cHP
- Small hitbox increase forward in the first hit
- To guarantee the hit after Salt Grinder, right now it whiffs against some characters.

Bobblin' Bubble
- I think it should change the startup/recovery across hungry.
- Also, the startup/recovery reduction in Satiated/Ravenous would help her to deal with space control characters.

Wish Maker
- Bugfix? Deals 0 damage but adds 20 undizzy.

Retina Reflector: Lens
- 236PP always shot at close range and let her choose the distance on the P held button, like the first version.
- OR keep as xP+xP, but I think LPMP = close range / MPHP = medium range / LPHP = long range should be better

Reversal Retina Reflector:
- Stay at 623PP OR move to 236KK (and move Under the Water to 214KK)

I think Umbrella is hella fun but she has a lot of problems to deal with the neutral game, she has some tools but some of them are way too predictable — but thats okay, if she manage to get the hit, she hits really hard.
 

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I have one small gripe with the consistent hunger on assist change:
While this has allowed Umbrella to have bubble assists become significantly more viable, especially since she can throw out overstuffed L and H bubbles, it also got rid of some gameplans that manipulate the hunger changes. With non-bubble assists like 6HP landing enough hits, even on block, reducing Umbrella's hunger people could take advantage and have her come in (DHC, incoming, tag) Ravenous, which also allowed cool setups like stagger -> Double Puddle -DHC> Feeding Time alongside the nice benefit of coming in in a more advantageous hunger state. In addition, the change to L bubble granting hunger on any usage would also allow this ramp towards overstuffed, letting Umbrella get more powerful bubbles as an assist with also the ability to DHC in Overstuffed.
I wish there was a way to allow people to manage Umbrella hunger as an assist without having to rely on changing it on DHC or after tag, but the current benefits of the assist change are hard to argue against, especially for making Wish Maker so viable as an assist.

Perhaps having punch moves still reduce hunger on hit and having hunger manipulating moves (butterfly from L) still activate, but not have it possible for pips to be lost through bubbles. This would allow hunger management gameplans to exist while teams who simply want normal assists (Wishmaker, Hungern Rush) can remain the way they are now.

It's still a minor gripe, so it'll be fine if it stays the way it is.
 

winnie

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I don't if this is better for general beta discussion as it involves both Umbrella and Double but ill post it here.

True quality of life change, make under the weather and cat heads spawn a consistent pattern when opponent is in hitstun. It is really annoying when comboing with these 2 supers because of the inconsistency of the spawn patterns. Some combos drop just because you got a bad spawn and there is no way to visually tell when this is going to happen. This has always been a problem with Double though she doesn't use cat heads for combos as much anymore but in Umbrella's case ending combos with under the weather is currently her best option and having the bubbles do random amounts of damage and hitstun is a problem.
 

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this may be a batshit crazy idea but it also may be galactic brain

You know how Umbrella can shoot out her own M bubbles and the point character can hit them to pop them?

hear me out

what if bella could reflect her own m bubble assist if she popped it with reflector

yes im feeling slightly evil today
 

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Double posting after playing more Umbrella:

I do think on a more serious note that her slide and her DP should be qcf motions. I think the one thing I found initially confusing playing her was that her specials seemed all over the place without there being like levels of power to them compared to almost everyone else.

I feel with salt grinder being qcf LP, slide could be QCF MP, and DP could be QCF HP. The charges and inputs just seem at the moment to not make too much sense, and The more I use her the more I feel she shouldn’t be a charge character? I’m not sure if others share this feeling.

I’d also be super curious on how powerful she would be in a build where command grab is also just a QCF/QCB input.
 

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Double posting after playing more Umbrella:

I do think on a more serious note that her slide and her DP should be qcf motions. I think the one thing I found initially confusing playing her was that her specials seemed all over the place without there being like levels of power to them compared to almost everyone else.

I feel with salt grinder being qcf LP, slide could be QCF MP, and DP could be QCF HP. The charges and inputs just seem at the moment to not make too much sense, and The more I use her the more I feel she shouldn’t be a charge character? I’m not sure if others share this feeling.

I’d also be super curious on how powerful she would be in a build where command grab is also just a QCF/QCB input.
was saying this from day one, it feels like the only reason she's a charge character is just because of the flavor behind her sister being a charge character aswell
 

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At sonic, more inter-activity between characters in general apart from usual stuff would be cool.

and yup gotta say the charge inputs feels a bit redundant w/Band, para and Bella already implementing them. genuinely want to try simple inputs. Her movement is kinda limited enough. Also can we make 6hp an overhead. It’s odd to me it’s not. And charged version? can it do something a bit more special like be more plus?

secondly I missed the simplicity of one button holds for retina reflector. If there’s a reason why that wasn’t feasible I missed it. (still think DP should just be DP motion to prevent overeasy mashing)

Lastly level 3…it’s already limited spacially…by your meter & for most part cannot DHC into (not to mention opponents gonna be looking for it). Would rather have any level 3 regardless of kill or not increase ravenous duration. After getting a big taste, lorewise, hungern would be more impatient to eat more. On kill just seems OD. We have such a dope character, don’t want to limit a tight mechanic like that — 3 bars is a lot. However On kill, if that had a small interesting bonus I could appreciate that.
 
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SonicFox

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At sonic, more inter-activity between characters in general apart from usual stuff would be cool.

and yup gotta say the charge inputs feels a bit redundant w/Band, para and Bella already implementing them. genuinely want to try simple inputs. Her movement is kinda limited enough. Also can we make 6hp an overhead. It’s odd to me it’s not. And charged version? can it do something a bit more special like be more plus?

secondly I missed the simplicity of one button holds for retina reflector. If there’s a reason why that wasn’t feasible I missed it. (still think DP should just be DP motion to prevent overeasy mashing)

Lastly level 3…it’s already limited spacially…by your meter & for most part cannot DHC into. Would rather have any level 3 regardless of kill or not increase ravenous duration. After getting a big taste, lorewise, hungern would be more impatient to eat more. On kill just seems OD. We have such a dope character, don’t want to limit a tight mechanic like that — 3 bars is a lot. However On kill, if that had a small interesting bonus I could appreciate that.
Seconded on level 3 increasing ravenous. Its hardly noticeable and pretty difficult to kill straight up with it.

If you make me kill someone with level 3, highkey I’m trying to see half of my hunger meter instantly be ravenous lmaooo
 

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yeah

& at risk of reaching, feel like 2 extra pips would be fine seeing that doing two level 3's (6 bars) from Umbrella in one match seems like a tall order & all her eating moves needed in many combos move her into normal/overstuffed. At the very least I think it'd be healthy to try. Even having played triv here & there, i only remember seeing robo install once a match. Not twice...and w/as many resets as he does, id assume his meter gain would be more generous. Thats meter not used for DHCs, safety, alpha counters, etc. not to speak for anyone but myself -- let the level 3 be substantial
 
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Double posting after playing more Umbrella:

I do think on a more serious note that her slide and her DP should be qcf motions. I think the one thing I found initially confusing playing her was that her specials seemed all over the place without there being like levels of power to them compared to almost everyone else.

I feel with salt grinder being qcf LP, slide could be QCF MP, and DP could be QCF HP. The charges and inputs just seem at the moment to not make too much sense, and The more I use her the more I feel she shouldn’t be a charge character? I’m not sure if others share this feeling.

I’d also be super curious on how powerful she would be in a build where command grab is also just a QCF/QCB input.
I would also love to see her charged inputs changed to QC inputs with how her current build is set up. I feel Umbrella having to hold charge kinda trips her up in a lot of situations and makes playing her neutral against most characters feel really awkward and limiting in a not so fun way. I also feel it makes going for things like her 6LP and 6HP anti airs feel way riskier then they should be.
 

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Why is bubble super QCF KK but normal bubble specials QCB KK
can the bubble super go to QCB for consistency?
ps I'm all for removing her charges
 
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SonicFox

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I feel as a QOL change aegis reflector should either keep the opponent in additional hitstun or have a slight pull in effect so that the hits while its traveling always works. Theres many instances where they get hit by the first 2 hits of the super and then just drop out while standing. It’s really weird.

The second QOL change would be make DHCing OUT of reflector a bit easier. Sometimes I think the timing is when you see the “FLASH” part of the super and it’s not. It’d be cool if once it got to that part, the dhc didnt just totally disappear if you dhc’d too early, because chances are if you did retina reflector instead of flash, you want the mirror out always.
 
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I feel as a QOL change aegis reflector should either keep the opponent in additional hitstun or have a slight pull in effect so that the hits while its traveling always works. Theres many instances where they get hit by the first 2 hits of the super and then just drop out while standing. It’s really weird.

The second QOL change would be make DHCing OUT of reflector a bit easier. Sometimes I think the timing is when you see the “FLASH” part of the super and it’s not. It’d be cool if once it got to that part, the dhc didnt just totally disappear if you dhc’d too early, because chances are if you did retina reflector instead of flash, you want the mirror out always.
also sidenote, similarly eliza LoS, making early DHC window right when she jumps out her chest but hasnt made contact yet a little easier. right now at least for myself it’s very Tough timing that visual cue, and only time I can dhc is after bouncing off the opponent. referring to being really close or right up on them. Not saying impossible but it’s incredibly easy to screw up.
 
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Finally got around to playing Umbrella after the latest patch.

Her voices are honestly amazing, but can be a bit hard to hear at times.

I'm late to the party on this - by like a week - but since I made this account specifically to weigh in on Umbrella's inputs, I feel kinda obligated to continue weighing in on it.

I agree that her punch specials being all different inputs feels a little... wack, but I disagree with the solution to fix that being removing her charge inputs. Instead, I suggest making all her punch specials charges, for the following reasons:

First off, I like charge characters.

Secondly, there's this certain... kinetic quality to Umbrella's moveset, and controlling it, that I don't think is quite matched by other characters in the game. You hit LP and LK to chomp the opponent like the buttons were teeth, you hit left and right to grind the opponent like your control stick is teeth, you hold the button on her jumping kicks to extend them and change her air momentum like the buttons were... something that isn't teeth. There's a lot of moves where the controls aren't just "hit the button and she does it", but instead the way in which you hit the button connects to how the move feels.

I think charge inputs gel with that kinetic feeling more than quarter-circles do. Because, well... quarter circles are the special move equivalent of "hit a button and she does it". Or maybe, to put it another way, holding her normals and then releasing them is the normal move equivalent of being a charge character, so she may as well actually be a charge character too?

Thirdly, while I might maybe see what you mean regarding Umbrella not feeling like a charge character - although, okay, I just spent two paragraphs explaining why her normals make her feel like a charge character, so maybe I don't - I definitely think her moves feel like charge moves. Salt Grinder screws me up already. Tongue Twister might be okay, but with how big it feels it being a charge move makes equal or greater sense to me. Her flash kick move seems a little too slow to feel right as a z-motion or qcb (and I know I've argued for it to be changed to a sonic boom, but it'd still be a charge move then). The real problem is her [4]6MP move; it definitely doesn't strike me as something that would feel right on qcf or even qcb. Heck, it's basically Totsugeki in aesthetics if not function, so it being anything else would be odd to me.
 

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Would it possible to add a feature where Umbrella doesn't eat the butterfly after using Cutie Ptooie by maybe holding down LP or something? I find my self not wanting to use the move that much because it fills up my hunger meter to high when I want it stay low or keep it in ravenous.