Umbrella Alpha Gameplay Discussion Thread

[sheep]

really don't agree with 6lp getting buffs when its near impossible to use it on demand when it overlaps with salt grinder, I've barely seen any use of it because of charging, so 6lp getting a strong buff is a bit shortsighted

is there a problem with changing 6lp to 4lp input?

 

[Golbat]

Finally got around to playing Umbrella some more after her new stuff was added, and I've adjusted to the new layout for her hunger meter. Ideally I'd like to try a version like the original where it filled up left to right, but I found myself watching the left side of the bar easy enough.

As for feedback on other stuff, I'm curious if the art team has considered adjusting the size of Hungern's tongue for Umbrella's ground/air throws and Level 3. I realize the exaggerated tongue length is to help sell the impact of the motion, but I am wondering if it's possible to reduce the size somewhat to be a little more consistent with the grab box for those moves. Level 3's whiff animation being mostly outside of the grab box seems like a little much. To be clear, by "adjusting the size" I mean reducing/scaling down the element for the tongue if it's a separate layer or something, not redrawing the animation. If that's not possible at this stage in development then that's fine.

 

[acfan]

Umbrella 5mp x2 not having a similar hitbox to x1 doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering how often the player wants to use x2; I'm wondering if we could get a hitbox change on the x2, or make it so the 11 frame gap between x1 and x2 have an active hitbox?

EDIT: Thought of an idea; to prevent the x2 hitbox from being open, only after a transition hitbox if 5mp x1 hits? Could be neat!

I've caught a lot of players with 5mp x1, only to lose because of the transition to x2.

Also I'm wondering if we could make the initial jump onto M Bubble be a lot smoother after putting the bubble out? Like if you hold "up" after M Bubble, Umbrella automatically jumps onto the bubble and you get to go from there. Having to awkwardly plan your jump after the bubble gets out seems unnecessary.

 

[Liam]

Here comes some words!

Also I'm wondering if we could make the initial jump onto M Bubble be a lot smoother after putting the bubble out?

With the introduction of the 214 bubble jump, I think the bubble spawned should be either a bit closer to brella to let her jump instantly after spawning it, or Brella should be able to jump on it instantly after spawning, something that lets her jump without running after the bubble a little, it'd give her access to the mechanic much easier.

Lastly the bobblin bubble, can the bubble actually start closer to umbrella; she has to do an awkward run up jump or double jump. Can’t super jump on it either right after. Jumping on it straight out would be nice!

She's at the perfect spacing to dash jump right onto it after releasing it, it shouldn't be difficult to line it up from spawn. Can people try 214MP, Dash Jump, and let me know if that's not working for some reason? It feels very consistent on my end! If you don't want to line up a jump, then you can just dash normally and hit the jump input twice to perform it from the underside easily without lining up the arcs.

I could perhaps give her a dash buffer afterwards to make instant dash easier. I may also slightly tweak the jump range height at some point. If up → up is too difficult on stick I have more ideas but I can dive into those later.

Not being able to do it instantly as soon as the bubble has been created is intentional, she has to arrive at it.

I've caught a lot of players with 5mp x1, only to lose because of the transition to x2.

I'll see what I can do about that.

is there a problem with changing 6lp to 4lp input?

Yes, you have to commit to not blocking when you want to brace yourself to anti-air.
I'm looking at reworking the Salt Grinder / Slurp N Slide / Hungern Rush series inputs. They may all end up different inputs since they're not functionally related to each other outside of scaling effectiveness based on making Hungern hungry. Salt Grinder might be 623LP in the future, or something else.

I think Umbrella's 5mp assist should be the x2 button press version

I think breaking the glass on the "normals as an assist do extra stuff" functionality would be better saved for a full pass on existing characters, potentially? I think character select would need a bunch of changes to support holding buttons to activate different versions of assist moves. It's a whole thing but I don't think we're going to commit to anything like that right now.

I mentioned this in the maincord yesterday but I think it's worth bringing up here:

There's a lot to cover here but I don't think I have time to go into everything. I appreciate the feedback and will be open to discussing more once she's "kit complete", I think.

Quickly though, complexity from a single cohesive mechanic [ignoring hunger] (like a Blazblue "drive" button, or a something overarching like Parasoul's tears or Venom's pool balls) wasn't the intent that we ended up at Umbrella, at least not right now. She has a plethora of separate tools that sometimes can be used in more than one way, and obviously combined together to create various gameplans - Retina Reflector and Bobblin' Bubble being pretty good examples, with potentially more uses to for existing things to be added in the future if we have time.

Fully understand where you're coming from though! The elegance of Parasoul's tear mechanic is simple but has a lot of depth, but then she also has three different summon moves (also hello to Eliza's servants) that feel like their own unrelated thing.

A minor nitpick and possibly something the devs are considering already? But I'd like to see a more distinctive visual cue to differentiate between the big bubble from Bobbin' and the small bubble from Ptooie and her super. The smaller bubble doing damage while the bigger bubble not directly interacting with the opponent seems counter-intuitive.

Trying to work with the art we have to use size as an immediate and obvious differentiation between how bubbles work, but I get that it's imperfect. I personally have no trouble distinguishing Bobblin in a sea of smaller bubbles from 214LP / 236KK. Bobblin Bubble's lack of hitbox until popped might create a bit of confusion at first until you learn how it works - if they were all "danger, do not touch!" then it's less of a big deal.

by "adjusting the size" I mean reducing/scaling down the element for the tongue if it's a separate layer or something, not redrawing the animation. If that's not possible at this stage in development then that's fine.

This leads to the shading looking incorrect usually so it would need to be touched up by clean up. It's not impossible at this stage but we have a lot of other art needs for the Season Pass, so we have to be selective. Air Throw & Ground Throw have been on my mind recently though, it's good feedback.

So I'm not sure if Liam already talked about this but I feel like either Hunger should be visible even when benched or Umbrella's assists should be less impacted by it, ideally the former. Its kinda hard to know if, for example, you will be able to use your hungern rush assist when the Hunger gauge is visible only on point.

I think I'd like to try freezing Hunger on the bench to allow you to more reliably "lock in" a specific Hunger strength of an assist if you go through the effort of aligning it as such before she tags in, which also removes the need for any HUD elements like that. I'm open to thoughts on this but I think it would make her benched team options more consistent and easier to build around.

still hoping fullness meter doesn’t drain ASAP after throw & rather right after they get up

I can lock it for the entire throw animation until it ends, but Hunger drain won't be "frozen" during neutral.

 

[Golbat]

This leads to the shading looking incorrect usually so it would need to be touched up by clean up. It's not impossible at this stage but we have a lot of other art needs for the Season Pass, so we have to be selective. Air Throw & Ground Throw have been on my mind recently though, it's good feedback.

Thanks for the clarification, I'm pretty out of the loop on SG art process stuff so wasn't sure how much work was needed for something like that.

 

[fayestra]

Quickly though, complexity from a single cohesive mechanic [...] wasn't the intent that we ended up at Umbrella, at least not right now. She has a plethora of separate tools that sometimes can be used in more than one way, and obviously combined together to create various gameplans - Retina Reflector and Bobblin' Bubble being pretty good examples, with potentially more uses to for existing things to be added in the future if we have time.

Fully understand where you're coming from though! The elegance of Parasoul's tear mechanic is simple but has a lot of depth, but then she also has three different summon moves (also hello to Eliza's servants) that feel like their own unrelated thing.

Yeah, of course, I didn't mean to imply that it should be a single finely honed mechanic, just a more general "doing more with less" approach, mainly since there seems to be way more unique interactable objects/mechanics being created for her compared to most other characters.

 

[tristePinguino]

Regarding Cutie Ptooie, I can't help but wonder if things would be clearer if the projectile it produced was something other than a bubble? It being a bubble is justified by it's relatively slow travel speed, but if it was something more visually distinct (like a food item from Umbrella's intro animation), it would be clear that it is an immediately dangerous projectile (compared to Bobblin' Bubble). It would be cool if Ptooie bubbles produced while Overstuffed at least stood out, given their different hit properties.

On another note, I just realized today that small bubbles (produced by Cutie Ptooie and Under the Weather) do not mutually cancel-out all opposing projectiles on collision. For example, small bubbles will nullify Crescent Cut, Headrone RAM, Napalm Shots, and any Georges. However, small bubbles will not affect (but will be destroyed by) Love Dart, Headrone Salvo, Luger Replica, and Shadow of Impending Doom items.
Is this the way it's meant to stay?

 

[Chrono_Tata]

Maybe a small thing but are there any other command grab supers in the game apart from Umbrella's Level 3 that don't use the LP+LK input? I can't recall any and having hers being a P+P input feels a bit inconsistent to the game's design.

 

[Lex]

There's Squig lvl 5 (and I guess Pea's lvl 3 on DHC is a QCBPP input even though it's a throw, though that's a weird one). Every character has a level 3 with the QCBPP input though, so unless Umbrella got a 2nd lvl 3, I think it makes sense that it follows the QCBPP input standard instead of LP+LK.

 

[Chrono_Tata]

There's Squig lvl 5 (and I guess Pea's lvl 3 on DHC is a QCBPP input even though it's a throw, though that's a weird one). Every character has a level 3 with the QCBPP input though, so unless Umbrella got a 2nd lvl 3, I think it makes sense that it follows the QCBPP input standard instead of LP+LK.

Right yeah everyone having a Level 3 on QCB.PP makes sense. I was thinking Beo's level 3 was on 360.LPLK but I forgot he had 2 Level 3s.

 

[Nuuance]

Finally got around to playing Umbrella some more after her new stuff was added, and I've adjusted to the new layout for her hunger meter. Ideally I'd like to try a version like the original where it filled up left to right, but I found myself watching the left side of the bar easy enough.

As for feedback on other stuff, I'm curious if the art team has considered adjusting the size of Hungern's tongue for Umbrella's ground/air throws and Level 3. I realize the exaggerated tongue length is to help sell the impact of the motion, but I am wondering if it's possible to reduce the size somewhat to be a little more consistent with the grab box for those moves. Level 3's whiff animation being mostly outside of the grab box seems like a little much. To be clear, by "adjusting the size" I mean reducing/scaling down the element for the tongue if it's a separate layer or something, not redrawing the animation. If that's not possible at this stage in development then that's fine.

100% on the tongue length…maybe might be a nitpick for some but this really got me the most. I understand it happens though like Annies grab comes to mind. for umbrella though it feels way more…I don’t wanna say frustrating, but just fairly different compared to hitbox

also thanks for all the work Liam

 

[sheep]

could we get an inch more range for hungern rush for the people who stick their lows in your face

 

[acfan]

She's at the perfect spacing to dash jump right onto it after releasing it, it shouldn't be difficult to line it up from spawn. Can people try 214MP, Dash Jump, and let me know if that's not working for some reason? It feels very consistent on my end! If you don't want to line up a jump, then you can just dash normally and hit the jump input twice to perform it from the underside easily without lining up the arcs.

I could perhaps give her a dash buffer afterwards to make instant dash easier. I may also slightly tweak the jump range height at some point. If up → up is too difficult on stick I have more ideas but I can dive into those later.

Not being able to do it instantly as soon as the bubble has been created is intentional, she has to arrive at it.

After playing more with this in mind, the timing feels good- thanks for the clarification. Wouldn't mind some QOL once her kit is done.

I have a bunch of QOL and hitbox quirks to post, but will wait until her moveset is fully released!

 

[Triviality]

In Umbrella's current state in the alpha she feels weak and limited in a lot of areas, especially mobility. However, I can see mobility being a characteristic weakness of her kit, so I'd rather than her other issues were resolved to make up for it:

TL;DR: Umbrella needs buffs to her tools to make up for her shortcomings in mobility and pressure.

ANTI-AIR NORMAL INPUT CONFLICT:
With Umbrella being a charge character, most of her specials involve her starting by holding back, especially from block. However, in neutral, she is unable to use her 6LP because [4]6LP Hitgrab (Salt Grinder) has priority. Rather than anti-airing, Umbrella would go into this hitgrab without first taking some time to unblock and likely get punished for it. This could be alleviated by either not having 6LP as a forward input, making Salt Grinder not a charge input, or changing Salt Grinder to use a different button (HP for example might work, but then now she conflicts with 6HP and DP (Hungern Rush)).

BUBBLE LIMITATIONS:
At the moment, Umbrella is only allowed to have one bubble on screen with this pool being shared between Bobblin' Bubble (big) and Cutie Ptooie (small). This means not only that at Ravenous/near Starving she can't regain her hunger with small bubble while another is out, but she is limited also in her ability to control the screen, manage high hunger more effectively, and create pressure with small bubble (small bubble gets counter as soon as they run up+ upback, which can't be easily punished or capitalized upon).
With the high incentive to stay in Ravenous

(She needs meter to convert off Hungern Rush, Slurp n Slide, Tongue Twister when she isn't in Ravenous. Most normals are extremely sluggish when not in Ravenous, but that's intended. Hungern Rush is incredibly slow, taking 21 frames, (longer than H Drill) in startup when not in Ravenous),

removing the limit or raising the limit of bubbles (like around 3, shared or not shared) would allow Umbrella to more easily bring her hunger down to counteract how most of her moves bring it up. In addition, more bubbles would let Umbrella have more screen control and generate more pressure, which is especially pertinent in the next issue.

ZONERS:
Despite supposedly having many tools against zoners (Retina Reflector, projectile destruction with Tongue Twister), these tools end up failing in practice and especially make for her poor mobility. This mobility isn't solved by the bubble jump, setting up Bobblin' Bubble takes too long in between the onslaught of projectiles. Bobblin' Bubble even takes too long to setup even against non-zoners for the meager benefit it offers on its own.

sHP: Doesn't have Projectile Invuln on startup, and reflects projectiles DIRECTLY, meaning it's unlike for you to convert, unlike Bella's reflector.

Retina Reflector: Forces Umbrella to use a bar to give herself breathing room against Peacock and Robo. Robo can simply superjump laser stall until she gets past the reflector, and Peacock can H Teleport if the Umbrella tries jumping in. Even if this option worked 100% of the time, it make Umbrella extremely meter hungry on top of her meter requirement to convert off most specials when not in Ravenous.

Tongue Twister: This special is supposed to (to some extent) a counter against Peacock's zoning, yet in practice the ability to destroy low to the ground projectiles doesn't help if the peacock uses h item, h bomb, or sHP, meaning that Umbrella gets hit by projectiles midstartup in most cases (was it mentioned that this option is only viable in Ravenous due to the tongue speed?). By simply having Tongue Twister be projectile invuln, giving it super armor, or granting projectile invuln to something like Slurp-n-Slide (this choice would let her make up for being far away as well), Umbrella would be able to more consistently punish mindless zoning.

UNDER THE WEATHER:
Under the Weather is a LVL 2 upward super that sends out a lot of small bubbles (when not starving). As a damage super, it barely passes Retina Reflector in damage (when all bubbles hit) and is hard to continue a combo with when not in the corner, as the bubbles leaves the opponent in a standing state (as well as massive scaling). This leads to it being a poor DHC over Retina Reflector as well. As an upward reversal, this standing state as well as the launch trajectory midscreen makes it extremely unfeasible to convert off of. As a control super, like Catheads, it does grant a lot of air-control. However, unlike Catheads, it cannot be lead into via blockstring without being punished (though its unlikely they can do a very long combo depending on character), and cannot be easily converted off of if any of the bubbles hit. Altogether, these make it so I find myself rarely ever using this super. Increasing the damage and making the small bubbles do what they do in Overstuffed (that is, cause knockdown), they might be significantly more viable.

PRESSURE/MIXUPS
As it stands, Umbrella has very mediocre pressure against grounded opponents. Neither bubbles nor puddles allow for any sort of lockdown. She lacks a standing overhead, IAD, or a rising air move that hits most crouched opponents (that hits high). jMP, which might seem like this option without being ridiculous (jLP would be overpowered if it was rising high), doesn't work. This makes her pressure incredibly predictable, placing most of her mixup game to be founded mostly in low-throw. One might think that Tongue Twister, being a command grab, would make up for this, but its often slow startup, large punish window, and its 1 meter requirement to convert makes it very unappealing over normal throw besides for damage. Additionally, even her lows rely on her normals, when Slurp-n-Slide could easily be a low and help with this pressure. Slurp-n-Slide seems like a pressure tool, as it's safe and keeps Umbrella out of poking distance, yet its status as a mid combined with its poor frame data (-4 is hard to keep the pressure going with) keep it from living up to its full potential.
Even against up-backing opponents, she relies mostly on jHK, a very good air-to-air option, yet incredibly short ranged. jMP has a desirable hitbox as an air button, yet with how it sends airborne opponents downward AND forward making it so it is extremely difficult to convert off of without jHP, which either scales the combo or takes too long and drops it.
Umbrella's mixup game has also otherwise been neutered, as the recent nerf to sHK to make it significantly less safe (-11 to -19 depending on distance) make it extremely easy to punish without an assist. Combined with a 30+ frame startup it is effectively out of the question as a mixup in most situations.
These elements combine to make for a character with pressure that's hard to keep up on and relatively easily to block.

DEFENSE
Umbrella has some very mediocre tools for getting the opponent off her. Her anti-air has the aforementioned input issue. Her DP (Hungern Rush) is either slow on startup, needs meter to convert off of, has a small hitbox, and is exorbitantly minus. Being in Ravenous might solve the poor frame data and the conversion, but it also means that the Umbrella is likely to fall into Starving (which nulls pretty much all her specials and punch moves) if she gets hit again or long enough while in Ravenous.
Retina Reflector would seem like the ideal reversal option, as its hitstop and invuln allow her to effectively decide mid-superflash whether to send out a Projection Lens or not. However, in the situations where she is forced to not use the Lens, she gets no conversion, and if she tries, all (or a significant amount, not sure) hitstop gets removed such that she gets hit mid-super and the lens is stuffed. Projection Lens would probably be better off staying without hitstop (it would be ridiculous otherwise), so there seems to be no solution with keeping Reflector as the ideal reversal; it makes Umbrella meter-hungry enough as is.

If these issues were fixed, I feel Umbrella would be a lot more capable in handling the rest of the cast.

If I were to suggest fixes directly, it would be:
-Salt Grinder is now [4]6HP (or 214LP, but that would go against the charge char theming)
-Slurp-n-Slide hits Low instead of Mid (maybe even making it neutral/less minus on block)
-The Limits on Bobblin' Bobble and Cutie Ptooie raised to 2, not shared between them.
-Under the Weather has increased damage, and the bubbles cause knockdown/are the Overstuffed bubbles.
-Tongue Twister is now Projectile Invulnerable on startup (until the tongue stops having a hitbox) | OR | Slurp-n-Slide is now Projectile Invulnerable until the end of its active frames | OR | Slurp-n-Slide now has 3 hits of super armor
-Hungern Rush has a larger hitbox. Has a 17 frame startup in Satisfied, Has 21 frame startup in Overstuffed.
-sHP is now projectile invulnerable on startup (The window for reflecting projectiles is still the same, though!).
-sHK is -9 on block.
-jMP has a slightly larger hitbox. It now sends the opponent more directly downward.
-6HP now hits high.

There may be more to add, and more issues to address, but I believe these to be the most agreeable(?) changes and the most important issues at the moment.

 

[Triviality]

In Umbrella's current state in the alpha she feels weak and limited in a lot of areas, especially mobility. However, I can see mobility being a characteristic weakness of her kit, so I'd rather than her other issues were resolved to make up for it:

TL;DR: Umbrella needs buffs to her tools to make up for her shortcomings in mobility and pressure.

ANTI-AIR NORMAL INPUT CONFLICT:
With Umbrella being a charge character, most of her specials involve her starting by holding back, especially from block. However, in neutral, she is unable to use her 6LP because [4]6LP Hitgrab (Salt Grinder) has priority. Rather than anti-airing, Umbrella would go into this hitgrab without first taking some time to unblock and likely get punished for it. This could be alleviated by either not having 6LP as a forward input, making Salt Grinder not a charge input, or changing Salt Grinder to use a different button (HP for example might work, but then now she conflicts with 6HP and DP (Hungern Rush)).

BUBBLE LIMITATIONS:
At the moment, Umbrella is only allowed to have one bubble on screen with this pool being shared between Bobblin' Bubble (big) and Cutie Ptooie (small). This means not only that at Ravenous/near Starving she can't regain her hunger with small bubble while another is out, but she is limited also in her ability to control the screen, manage high hunger more effectively, and create pressure with small bubble (small bubble gets counter as soon as they run up+ upback, which can't be easily punished or capitalized upon).
With the high incentive to stay in Ravenous

(She needs meter to convert off Hungern Rush, Slurp n Slide, Tongue Twister when she isn't in Ravenous. Most normals are extremely sluggish when not in Ravenous, but that's intended. Hungern Rush is incredibly slow, taking 21 frames, (longer than H Drill) in startup when not in Ravenous),

removing the limit or raising the limit of bubbles (like around 3, shared or not shared) would allow Umbrella to more easily bring her hunger down to counteract how most of her moves bring it up. In addition, more bubbles would let Umbrella have more screen control and generate more pressure, which is especially pertinent in the next issue.

ZONERS:
Despite supposedly having many tools against zoners (Retina Reflector, projectile destruction with Tongue Twister), these tools end up failing in practice and especially make for her poor mobility. This mobility isn't solved by the bubble jump, setting up Bobblin' Bubble takes too long in between the onslaught of projectiles. Bobblin' Bubble even takes too long to setup even against non-zoners for the meager benefit it offers on its own.

sHP: Doesn't have Projectile Invuln on startup, and reflects projectiles DIRECTLY, meaning it's unlike for you to convert, unlike Bella's reflector.

Retina Reflector: Forces Umbrella to use a bar to give herself breathing room against Peacock and Robo. Robo can simply superjump laser stall until she gets past the reflector, and Peacock can H Teleport if the Umbrella tries jumping in. Even if this option worked 100% of the time, it make Umbrella extremely meter hungry on top of her meter requirement to convert off most specials when not in Ravenous.

Tongue Twister: This special is supposed to (to some extent) a counter against Peacock's zoning, yet in practice the ability to destroy low to the ground projectiles doesn't help if the peacock uses h item, h bomb, or sHP, meaning that Umbrella gets hit by projectiles midstartup in most cases (was it mentioned that this option is only viable in Ravenous due to the tongue speed?). By simply having Tongue Twister be projectile invuln, giving it super armor, or granting projectile invuln to something like Slurp-n-Slide (this choice would let her make up for being far away as well), Umbrella would be able to more consistently punish mindless zoning.

UNDER THE WEATHER:
Under the Weather is a LVL 2 upward super that sends out a lot of small bubbles (when not starving). As a damage super, it barely passes Retina Reflector in damage (when all bubbles hit) and is hard to continue a combo with when not in the corner, as the bubbles leaves the opponent in a standing state (as well as massive scaling). This leads to it being a poor DHC over Retina Reflector as well. As an upward reversal, this standing state as well as the launch trajectory midscreen makes it extremely unfeasible to convert off of. As a control super, like Catheads, it does grant a lot of air-control. However, unlike Catheads, it cannot be lead into via blockstring without being punished (though its unlikely they can do a very long combo depending on character), and cannot be easily converted off of if any of the bubbles hit. Altogether, these make it so I find myself rarely ever using this super. Increasing the damage and making the small bubbles do what they do in Overstuffed (that is, cause knockdown), they might be significantly more viable.

PRESSURE/MIXUPS
As it stands, Umbrella has very mediocre pressure against grounded opponents. Neither bubbles nor puddles allow for any sort of lockdown. She lacks a standing overhead, IAD, or a rising air move that hits most crouched opponents (that hits high). jMP, which might seem like this option without being ridiculous (jLP would be overpowered if it was rising high), doesn't work. This makes her pressure incredibly predictable, placing most of her mixup game to be founded mostly in low-throw. One might think that Tongue Twister, being a command grab, would make up for this, but its often slow startup, large punish window, and its 1 meter requirement to convert makes it very unappealing over normal throw besides for damage. Additionally, even her lows rely on her normals, when Slurp-n-Slide could easily be a low and help with this pressure. Slurp-n-Slide seems like a pressure tool, as it's safe and keeps Umbrella out of poking distance, yet its status as a mid combined with its poor frame data (-4 is hard to keep the pressure going with) keep it from living up to its full potential.
Even against up-backing opponents, she relies mostly on jHK, a very good air-to-air option, yet incredibly short ranged. jMP has a desirable hitbox as an air button, yet with how it sends airborne opponents downward AND forward making it so it is extremely difficult to convert off of without jHP, which either scales the combo or takes too long and drops it.
Umbrella's mixup game has also otherwise been neutered, as the recent nerf to sHK to make it significantly less safe (-11 to -19 depending on distance) make it extremely easy to punish without an assist. Combined with a 30+ frame startup it is effectively out of the question as a mixup in most situations.
These elements combine to make for a character with pressure that's hard to keep up on and relatively easily to block.

DEFENSE
Umbrella has some very mediocre tools for getting the opponent off her. Her anti-air has the aforementioned input issue. Her DP (Hungern Rush) is either slow on startup, needs meter to convert off of, has a small hitbox, and is exorbitantly minus. Being in Ravenous might solve the poor frame data and the conversion, but it also means that the Umbrella is likely to fall into Starving (which nulls pretty much all her specials and punch moves) if she gets hit again or long enough while in Ravenous.
Retina Reflector would seem like the ideal reversal option, as its hitstop and invuln allow her to effectively decide mid-superflash whether to send out a Projection Lens or not. However, in the situations where she is forced to not use the Lens, she gets no conversion, and if she tries, all (or a significant amount, not sure) hitstop gets removed such that she gets hit mid-super and the lens is stuffed. Projection Lens would probably be better off staying without hitstop (it would be ridiculous otherwise), so there seems to be no solution with keeping Reflector as the ideal reversal; it makes Umbrella meter-hungry enough as is.

If these issues were fixed, I feel Umbrella would be a lot more capable in handling the rest of the cast.

If I were to suggest fixes directly, it would be:
-Salt Grinder is now [4]6HP (or 214LP, but that would go against the charge char theming)
-Slurp-n-Slide hits Low instead of Mid (maybe even making it neutral/less minus on block)
-The Limits on Bobblin' Bobble and Cutie Ptooie raised to 2, not shared between them.
-Under the Weather has increased damage, and the bubbles cause knockdown/are the Overstuffed bubbles.
-Tongue Twister is now Projectile Invulnerable on startup (until the tongue stops having a hitbox) | OR | Slurp-n-Slide is now Projectile Invulnerable until the end of its active frames | OR | Slurp-n-Slide now has 3 hits of super armor
-Hungern Rush has a larger hitbox. Has a 17 frame startup in Satisfied, Has 21 frame startup in Overstuffed.
-sHP is now projectile invulnerable on startup (The window for reflecting projectiles is still the same, though!).
-sHK is -9 on block.
-jMP has a slightly larger hitbox. It now sends the opponent more directly downward.
-6HP now hits high.

There may be more to add, and more issues to address, but I believe these to be the most agreeable(?) changes and the most important issues at the moment.

It's a text dump but its the organized thoughts of nope.avi (Little Brother) and me after using umbrella and playing a crap ton of games with her, hope its worth something.

 

[fayestra]

for the 6lp charge issue, imo some specials could be remapped to be Kick specials since they feel a lil cramped all being on punches. parasoul has several krieg specials be kicks (214K and [2]8K) so some hungern specials could be fine there too.

another thing i'd think would be nice: be able to grab after salt grinder again, with hunger meter per "chew" reduced on applicable moves so you can have the max damage on one individual grab without it shooting up as high, while still being able to get up to overstuffed by using two in one combo

 

[Liam]

@Triviality, thanks for the feedback! I actually had a lot of the same things already written down. There's been so much going on I haven't had time to hit up that kind of tuning yet but I will be looking at that kind of thing after she gets her final Bubble Special Move.

I'm also planning on trying a bit of an input refactor:

Salt Grinder → 623LP or 236LP ... With Slurp N Slide and Hungern Rush already using different inputs, the LP "hungry special" also being a different input is something I'd like to try. 6LP won't overlap after this change.

as its hitstop and invuln allow her to effectively decide mid-superflash whether to send out a Projection Lens or not

Yeah I really don't like this and don't think she should be able to change her mind mid super flash. Next experiment will likely be closer to SBO.

236LPMP (Close Projectile)
236LPHP (Med Projectile)
236MPHP (Far Projectile)
623PP (Physical Version)

Her QCB series may also be moving to K from P.

UNDER THE WEATHER:

Full disclosure, this was a level 1 up until the last second before it shipped. The bubbles can effectively lock people down or provide a threat of attack for way longer than something like Cat Heads if you can set it up correctly. If the strength is much closer to a level 1 compared to 2 I'm not opposed to going back to that for testing.

 

[Ranger]

Full disclosure, this was a level 1 up until the last second before it shipped. The bubbles can effectively lock people down or provide a threat of attack for way longer than something like Cat Heads if you can set it up correctly. If the strength is much closer to a level 1 compared to 2 I'm not opposed to going back to that for testing.

What if you could tweak amount of bubbles/pressure needed for amount of meter spent by holding buttons down a bit, kinda like R Fortune lvl3/lvl5? So if you want it to just create some space you can just tap it, spend a bar for it, or hold it for more offensive use but waste more? Also it goes pretty well with her current input theme with reflector super already.

Or alternatively, it can always be tied to hunger as it is now: hungry - bad bubbles/not hungry - regular bubbles, but with extra power;slower/faster fall speed depending on hunger level?

I assume this super is "go child, hold down the neutral" type, so it shouldn't be used for pure damage? If that's the case, my suggested approaches can work to level its utility to make it worth its cost.

In any case, I believe there is a lot of approaches you can take besides the ones I mentioned and I wish you to find one that is good for the character.

 

[nope.avi]

@Liam thanks for reading it! As for Under the Weather, I think it seems more like level 1 strength in its current state, but if it were given overstuffed (KD) bubbles I feel it would be justifiably level 2.
I'm excited to see the tuning that comes in the future, but I think it was important to outline these problems in the meantime.

 

[acfan]

Gonna add some thoughts

Umbrella JHK is super dependent on height in regards to the hitbox starting and ending, making for pretty difficult ground conversions, depending on Umbrella's position on the screen- Was wondering if it's possible to have a clear "final hitbox" for this move so we can get consistent ground followups?

Overstuffed JHP and overstuffed 6HP bounce not being consistent/ clear on when it will bounce makes for difficulty knowing if harder combos will bounce. (Maybe some "spark" for when we know 6HP will bounce, or make Hungern louder?)

Going to echo what people have said regarding 6lp input overlap, when I'm trying to use it in its intended purpose I continue getting salt grinder- not even because of habit blocking, but being crossed up!

I have written up a lot of hitbox inconsistencies- mainly in regards to SHK link not working after overstuffed SMPx2 with certain heights on certain characters, and 6lp -> 6hp not being consistent on all weights makes for really awkward corner combos, but not sure if they should be posted here or in the appropriately named channel.

The rest of my current concerns were also said by Triv. Looking forward to her last move and/ or beta!

edit: Puddles lasting a little bit longer when popped would go a lot farther for Umbrella pressure!

 

[Liam]

(Maybe some "spark" for when we know 6HP will bounce, or make Hungern louder?)

We have two new VFX for when you reach partial charge (SG eyes turn on and pulse) and full charge (Hungern generates lightning and electrifies people on hit).

Going to echo what people have said regarding 6lp input overlap

Changing next update!

edit: Puddles lasting a little bit longer when popped would go a lot farther for Umbrella pressure!

Puddles, at some point, will last longer at some point and be a bit more generous with their spawning and hit locations (especially in the corner) to make them a little easier to use.

 

[Liam]

Was wondering if it's possible to have a clear "final hitbox" for this move so we can get consistent ground followups?

Final hitbox or more clear final hit? It's already +25 ish when you land it correctly so I'm not sure about buffing it even further, without nerfing the hits that come prior.

 

[KassRigaya]

In my opinion the problem with puddles, at least mid-combo, isn't the time they last but rather they way it launches the opponent after you pop it. Since it launches them backwards the opponent usually gets out of puddle range which hinders the potential of bubbles imo. I think that changing bubble pops to giving increased stun and maybe restanding instead of launching them would make using them in combos more useful.

 

[Calexe]

Umbrella small suggestions and feedback.
Warning of bad english.
I do know, must of the stuff here will be adjusted with the Beta cycle and maybe this isn't the feedback needed for now.

• Ground Bounces
s.HK -> A bigger ground bounce against heavy/mediumweights OR a recovery reduction on-hit
- This could help her to confirm with sMK without OTG and lead into decent damage in any form against everyone.
jHP >> fHP -> Usable anywhere in lightweights, corner only to everyone else (due to her slow dash startup), no problems here too IMO
fHP2x (Half Charged) - The ground bounce on the second hit feels so AWKWARD to use into non-light characteres.
- I don't really have a suggestion here, I just wanted to point it out - Sorry.
Overstuffed jHP -> Requires you to spend OTG against heavyweights (Band/Double) to convert it. (Example: cHP > jMP > jHP > sMP2x)
- IMO the groundbounce here should be more high and let her use sMP without spending OTG against everyone.
- The other option here is the reduction of the slam recovery - But Im not really sure about this

• Bubbles
I know Umbrella isn't suppost to have a lot of mobility and need to use the bubbles to move around and stuff but:
- The 214MP bubble takes too long to spawn, 21F to spawn and it becomes "active" after 38F, which is too much for her, specially if she's fullscreen
- The bubble jump is kinda hard to use, not for execute the jump but you doesn't have too much time to do it.
- As Triviality said, she should be able to spawn more than 1 bubble, I just second the idea, at least for testing.
- And a small question, the bubbles are supposed to go offscreen? Like, if you use in the corner you cannot interact with them or spawn another.

• Small stuff
j[LK] - She can repeat the kick up to 9 times, a small increase on hitstun in the last hit should help her to guarantee the fLP link afterwards.
jMK - A small hitbox increase forward so she can opt more for it after jMP.
cHP(1) - The first hit of her cHP in OTG State can destroy the consistency of her jHK/jMP>jMK/jLP follow-up.
- If the first hit freeze the opponent in the OTG State, just like Squigly's H Dive, the consistency would stay intact.
cMK - A small hitbox increase upwards OR a bit more of active frames should help her restand to lead into more hitconfirms or resets.
Slurp 'n' Slide - It should be a low tbh OR a bit more of + frames on block, to let her continue her pressure.
Hungern Rush - I second the hitbox increase and startup reduction suggestion from Triviality.

 

[Liam]

- And a small question, the bubbles are supposed to go offscreen? Like, if you use in the corner you cannot interact with them or spawn another.

This will be adjusted eventually, it's more of a bug. Sending a bubble off screen then locking you out of bubbles until it pops isn't intended.

- As Triviality said, she should be able to spawn more than 1 bubble, I just second the idea, at least for testing.

We will experiment with a 2 bubble limit in the future, I think. =)

 

[winnie]

With all of Umbrella's tools in the beta I can finally give my thoughts on the character. Overall I really like her design and hunger mechanic. It allows for interesting gameplay both in on the fly combo routing and interactive resource control. That being said there are some overarching issues with her kit that leave her in positions where she only has one or no options at her disposal. The rest of this post is going to be focused on her issues and anything I don't mention is either fine or still to fresh to need discussion.

Ill get into specific problems later bit I would like to start with talking about starving as a whole. The current version of starving not only removes access to all of her specials but slows down her punch normals so much that they become a risk to even use. I was hoping she would have a way to get out of starving with a special like GGXrd Sin eat but all she has is the butterfly on 214Lk and that only give 6 seconds of non-starving time. This time is cut even shorter than 6 seconds if she uses any bubble special or connects a punch normal (on block or hit) putting her in a situation where she gets one chance to land a hit or she is back to boing the worst character in the game. The time it takes to drain the hunger bar also makes red hunger mode a huge risk as one mistake can lead to getting put in a mix up without access to her meatless reversal not to mention her lack of air reversal plus non heavy weights leaving her vulnerable to every 5 way air reset imaginable. But I digress, starving feels like a punishment for using over tuned tools on a character that has no over tuned tools.

This leads me to her next issue lying in her neutral game. While having some of the worst movement options in the game Umbrella suffers from stubby normals, weak special moves, and almost no consistent defensive options giving you a character that is extremely resource dependent with no way of manipulating the resource until she lands a hit. As I write this I struggle to find a way for this character to keep away as it feels like she is always on a clock to get the next hit before starving puts her at a disadvantage. The only solution I can think of to help her is to give her a way out of starving or make hunger drain slower overtime.

Now I'll start getting into specific tools that feel underwhelming or even useless that I would like to see changed to either bring them in line with other similar moves or help push her into having a solid offensive presence out side of retina reflector > pressure.

214Mk: the bubble moves just a tad to fast and I feel holding 9 after using it should allow a bubble jump so she doesn't have to spend so much time and effort to bubble jump that her opponent can just see the bubble and dash jump forward to challenger her from anywhere on screen.

4-6lp+lk: I don't understand why this is the only command throw in the game that can be jumped last second and full jump in punished while not even giving a combo without meter investment or corner positioning. I feel this move is to much of a risk for how punishing it is to get hit out of and find myself never using it without excessive set up.

J.lk: this move has a really bad hitbox and the movement change doesn't really do much besides cause SG scrabbles. Given that she has no fast rising button if becomes hard to challenge jumping opponents maybe letting her do the hold version on whiff would help idk.

Air to Airs in general: thanks to having no fast rising buttons trying to fight in the air is very difficult and it feels like all of her anti air normals are a commitment leading to a high risk high reward character that has great reward but devastating negative outcomes.

Forced to approach: I mentioned this already but this character suffers from the same fate as Bella where if they just run away she has to approach and cant force the opponent to chase her. This weakness itself isn't a problem the problem is if they keep away long enough Umbrella goes into starving and has no way to get out of starving.

She is and isn't a small character in the worst way: when you look at her hurtbox you find that Umbrella isn't small at all she has a very average size compared to the rest of the cast. Then you look at her hurtboxes and find that she is really small all of a sudden. This plays to her disadvantage in most cases making it difficult to challenge other character buttons and difficult to dodge them at the same time.

Repressure: This may have been fixed with the j.mp change but if this character gets push blocked you better have an assist locking them down or you don't really have a way to get back in and mix them up. It doesn't help that Umbrella's on block mix is pretty weak without taking a risk on command throw or 2lk 2mk gimmick.

To close this post I just want to say that not all of these things need to be changed or addressed. Part of the fun of playing a team game is finding a way around a characters weaknesses and forming a solid game plan. That being said Umbrella feels like a character that gets punished to heavily for not winning while having very little to make up for that weakness. It's like trying to play Filia without airdashing and every 60 seconds your punch normals stop working unless you land a hit but if you land a hit you do Big Band levels of damage from anywhere.

Also also I'm not proofreading this so if it feels like I'm rambling I am. Thank you for reading.

 

[CullenA]

Can Bobblin' Bobble bubble function like Under The Weather where if we hold back it stays in the spot of creation, neutral position is I guess mid-screen, and forward is at the end of the screen. Like Peacocks shadow of Impending doom.
having the up-close position could help people not wanting to dash jump and keep the bubble from going off-screen in the corner

and this is just a "me" thing, Can we have rising J.mK off of bobblin' bubble launch Umbrella like how Parasoul's j.mK launches her with her tears?
the thought of umbrella ZOOMING across the sky so proud like only to fall to the ground brings hilarious thoughts to me.

 

[ahemtoday]

Hi, I joined these forums specifically because I wanted to weigh in on this!

...I must say that while I love Umbrella generally, I'm not really a fan of the way her inputs are assigned. I've held off 'til now because I figured it might just be due to the character being in development, but I think now is the time to say something.

One of the things I really like about inputs in Skullgirls is how they always come in sets of three - if there's a special, either it's on every strength of punch or every strength of kick; or there are specials with the same input on the other button strengths. It seems like an odd thing to appreciate, but I've been trying to get into BlazBlue and picking up characters in that really makes me miss the concrete structure of where specials are.

What I'm specifically not a fan of about Umbrella is how she... doesn't do that. Salt Grinder, Slurp 'n Slide, and Hungern Rush are all on one specific button and all different inputs, and that feels... a bit gross to me. I think them all being different strengths of punch is intended to be a version of that sort of structure, but... I think that only accomplishes the concept's aesthetic aspects and not its practical ones - a player still has to remember that she has a qcf, a sonic boom, and a flash kick, and all on only these buttons.

Now that you've said you're not adding any more specials to her, and I'm going to assume that also precludes light/medium/heavy variants of existing specials. Even with that in mind, I think you can rejigger her moveset to make it a bit easier to remember.

My first idea is that you move Salt Grinder back to sonicboom-LP, move Hungern Rush to sbHP, and then move →LP to ←LP. Since Hungern Rush goes at a diagonal angle now, i don't think it would be completely nuts to make it a horizontal charge instead of a vertical one. The change to →LP is to keep its charge interference gone.

Another idea: like the above, but instead of moving Hungern Rush to sbHP, you move Tongue Twister to sbHP. Then, you make Hungern Rush work with any punch button. I freely admit Hungern Rush makes more sense as a vertical charge, but if we need another sonic boom to complete the trio, we have one that's currently on the grab input. Hungern Rush wouldn't need to change for the different punches - I just think in this situation it might as well work with all three.

...That gives me another idea. You could just make all three of her punch specials work with any punch button even if there's no actual difference in the move. I don't think many people will be doing qcfs and flash kicks on accident, so I don't see a reason to limit them to one specific button. I think this might be my least favorite of the three (if only because I like charge inputs and doing Salt Grinder and I would prefer those two together), but I could get down with this.

Really, though, I recognize this might be somewhat... what's the word, needy? Demanding? "Go and overhaul this character's controls because I say so"-y? I don't want it to come across like that. I just wanted to voice that I found Umbrella's specials somewhat unwieldy to remember.

 

[MachiTheFool]

Hey! First time posting here but I wanted to say my piece. I'll try and keep it brief.

So, I feel like Umbrella should get more reward for carrying a combo in Ravenous. Right now, her primary state for carrying a combo is Overstuffed, due to its high damage output. Overstuffed being a high damage state isn't a bad thing, but I feel like it takes away from the appeal of Ravenous, which is only really good during neutral. I understand that some of the design principles may have changed since her initial pitch, but part of the appeal of Umbrella before she launched was the idea of trying to carry unimaginably long combos and keep the Ravenous state going for as long as possible with creative uses of specials. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like she has much reason to do this when she can just Salt Grinder into Overstuffed and deal way more damage overall without running the risk of Starving. Ravenous combos are more interesting to pull off due to the variety of tools that being Ravenous opens up, but ultimately, in terms of damage, you get less payout for performing more work, which I feel goes against the theming of Ravenous being Umbrella's most dangerous state.

I think that Ravenous could maybe stand to benefit from some sort of damage increase (maybe lessening the damage scaling she experiences from her many multi-hits while she's in this state, an issue many people have noticed and a weakness that the Overstuffed state lacks), or better pressure in general.

Since Starving is so punishing and Ravenous is such a small window, I think it'd be entertaining to encourage Umbrella to stay in this state for longer and reward her for more resourceful play.

Other than that, Umbrella's full kit seems really interesting and I'm excited to see her further flourish in the future!

 

[MachiTheFool]

Another post, but I wanted to weigh in on Umbrella's special move inputs with my own ideas.

This is how I'd do Umbrella's Specials:

-> Tongue Twister: [4]6 LPLK
-> Salt Grinder: 214 LP
-> Slurp N' Slide: 236 P (maybe add different versions on different strengths? something with Armor vs startup time/distance traveled? Idk, we're not talking about slurp buffs right now)
-> Hungern Rush: Can either keep [2]8HP or make it a DP, but I'd like it to potentially use the other strengths. they don't even need to have extra effects it'd just feel better
-> Bubble Trouble: [4]6 K (Bubbles may need some changes to be more effective neutral tools if made charges)
-> Cutie P'tooie: [4]6 LK
-> Wish Maker: [4]6 MK
-> Bobblin' Bubble: [4]6 HK (moved to HK because it's the largest and slowest Bubble move)

-> Retina Reflector (Projection Lens): 236 PP
-> Retina Reflector (Reversal): 214 PP (I opted for QCB because it's like "close range vs long range" so the backwards input is like you're holding back, in a way? Almost like stifling a belch, as gross yet thematically appropriate of an analogy as that is.)
-> Under the Weather: 236 KK
-> Feeding Time: 214 LPLK (Command grabs using the grab input? Unheard of!)

Obviously overhauling the inputs AGAIN would be a lot of work on what is surely already a massive workload, and there are probably a lot of issues with this input system, but I like throwing these ideas out.

 

[ahemtoday]

Another post, but I wanted to weigh in on Umbrella's special move inputs with my own ideas.

This is how I'd do Umbrella's Specials:

-> Tongue Twister: [4]6 LPLK
-> Salt Grinder: 214 LP
-> Slurp N' Slide: 236 P (maybe add different versions on different strengths? something with Armor vs startup time/distance traveled? Idk, we're not talking about slurp buffs right now)
-> Hungern Rush: Can either keep [2]8HP or make it a DP, but I'd like it to potentially use the other strengths. they don't even need to have extra effects it'd just feel better
-> Bubble Trouble: [4]6 K (Bubbles may need some changes to be more effective neutral tools if made charges)
-> Cutie P'tooie: [4]6 LK
-> Wish Maker: [4]6 MK
-> Bobblin' Bubble: [4]6 HK (moved to HK because it's the largest and slowest Bubble move)

-> Retina Reflector (Projection Lens): 236 PP
-> Retina Reflector (Reversal): 214 PP (I opted for QCB because it's like "close range vs long range" so the backwards input is like you're holding back, in a way? Almost like stifling a belch, as gross yet thematically appropriate of an analogy as that is.)
-> Under the Weather: 236 KK
-> Feeding Time: 214 LPLK (Command grabs using the grab input? Unheard of!)

Obviously overhauling the inputs AGAIN would be a lot of work on what is surely already a massive workload, and there are probably a lot of issues with this input system, but I like throwing these ideas out.

The bubble moves being charges instead of the... what's the word, tongue moves? Mouth moves? You know what I mean - the bubbles being charges and them not would be a bit odd, in my opinion. The Salt Grinder change is messing me up, but I didn't even notice the bubble moves changing to 214K. (Nor do I even remember whether they used to be 236P or 214P.) It might just be that switching a move from punch to kick and flipping the quarter circle around is a less major change than going between quarter-circles and charge motions, but the bubble moves don't feel like charge moves to me, while the tongue moves do.

...I still wouldn't be a fan of Salt Grinder being one button only. (I mean, honestly, I'm finding my fingers really want it to be a charge input still, but I'd probably adjust with time.) It seems like an odd thing to do considering you change all the other one-strength specials.

Slurp 'n Slide on a 236 would feel especially weird to me, but you're right that this does seem like something that would have multiple strengths.

I am glad to see someone agrees with me about moves feeling better if they're on multiple buttons even if those other buttons don't do anything different.

I've messed up Retina Reflector enough times that I wouldn't be opposed to having them be entirely separate inputs, though that would make them separate supers and it would be a little odd to have two different supers have such similar animations.

214LP+LK feels more like a standard command grab input than a super command grab input, at least on a character with [4]6LP+LK as a standard command grab. I don't think anyone would hit it on accident except maybe Cerebella mains, but it doesn't seem like the type of input that would cost three bars of meter.

 

[acfan]

Hello! I made a video documenting the inconsistencies of Umbrella's Retina Reflector after Tongue Twister. I feel it's important to put this out so Umbrella can have consistent conversions.

The biggest part is the eyeball rotation causing certain characters to fall out when grabbing them in the corner.

I will be making more videos on characters falling out of Umbrella's kit once I dig through all my replays and am able to properly replicate them in training mode.

 

[sheep]

I think stronger reward on reflecting with lens or 5hp should be stronger since some projectiles just don't work in umbrellas context too favorably without meter to convert

I propose that her reflects on lens and 5hp are turned into the eyeball projectiles that are spawned from lens, this would give her much higher presence in zoning MUs where she currently suffers the most by giving her breathing room, and will let her set up a bubble of her choosing, especially bobblin for the bubblejump

 

[Liam]

Hello,

Now that Umbrella has all of her moves I'll be working through them all again with a second pass. Expect a lot of moves to get tuning! I'd like to get some portion of the beta balance changes unrelated to Umbrella in a build before the end of the year, so there's a lot to do before Hidden Variable closes for the holidays soon.

---

RE: Special move inputs, P specials are pretty intentionally different inputs for each move at this point. Making everything [4],6+P again I agree works a bit better because of Hungern Rush's new angle, but then 6LP becomes 4LP, which means you can block before attempting it, which isn't my favorite. Then again, SG has a ton of AAs on 1LP!

[2],8+HP for Hungern Rush on flash kick also doesn't get your input crossed up currently, so moving it to [4],6HP would be a bit of a nerf in some areas just for something that everyone's muscle memory would adjust to in the future.

Lastly, reordering Bubble specials in the order of the Bubble size makes sense, but HK is the biggest bubble on contact which is why Wish Maker is there. Wish Maker / Ptooie / Bobblin would have been fine too I suppose, but I'm hoping to not change it every update!

---

@winnie, a lot of good thoughts here that are still on my list to tune. For example changing the momentum of jLK on the way up so it's a better A2A, stopping Bobblin from getting stuck in the corner and adjusting its speed, a total overhaul of Hunger building rate, and possibly locking Hunger mechanics on the bench as I spoke about before, for consistent assist usage, etc. Will probably just try and get more changes out rather than talk about them first here on Skullheart!

Hello! I made a video documenting the inconsistencies of Umbrella's Retina Reflector after Tongue Twister.

Thanks! I'll see what I can do about this.

I think stronger reward on reflecting with lens or 5hp should be stronger since some projectiles just don't work in umbrellas context too favorably without meter to convert

Reflection is intentionally sort of niche and match up dependent. It's not supposed to be Diamond Deflector 2 or something like that, and sHP is as good as it is supposed to be at the moment. I expect it to shine more smacking SBO / Inferno Of Leviathan back at Squigly, hitting Crescent Cut where the tall hitbox will still reach Annie where an eyeball projectile would miss, sending Napalm Shot at Parasoul and having the tear left behind be on Umbrella's team, etc...

But I don't expect her to be standing her ground waiting for Peacock or Robo-Fortune to do anything so she can counter with sHP, like Cerebella does already, as that is Cerebella's thing and not Umbrella's.

 

[sheep]

Hello,

Now that Umbrella has all of her moves I'll be working through them all again with a second pass. Expect a lot of moves to get tuning! I'd like to get some portion of the beta balance changes unrelated to Umbrella in a build before the end of the year, so there's a lot to do before Hidden Variable closes for the holidays soon.

---

RE: Special move inputs, P specials are pretty intentionally different inputs for each move at this point. Making everything [4],6+P again I agree works a bit better because of Hungern Rush's new angle, but then 6LP becomes 4LP, which means you can block before attempting it, which isn't my favorite. Then again, SG has a ton of AAs on 1LP!

[2],8+HP for Hungern Rush on flash kick also doesn't get your input crossed up currently, so moving it to [4],6HP would be a bit of a nerf in some areas just for something that everyone's muscle memory would adjust to in the future.

Lastly, reordering Bubble specials in the order of the Bubble size makes sense, but HK is the biggest bubble on contact which is why Wish Maker is there. Wish Maker / Ptooie / Bobblin would have been fine too I suppose, but I'm hoping to not change it every update!

---

@winnie, a lot of good thoughts here that are still on my list to tune. For example changing the momentum of jLK on the way up so it's a better A2A, stopping Bobblin from getting stuck in the corner and adjusting its speed, a total overhaul of Hunger building rate, and possibly locking Hunger mechanics on the bench as I spoke about before, for consistent assist usage, etc. Will probably just try and get more changes out rather than talk about them first here on Skullheart!


Thanks! I'll see what I can do about this.


Reflection is intentionally sort of niche and match up dependent. It's not supposed to be Diamond Deflector 2 or something like that, and sHP is as good as it is supposed to be at the moment. I expect it to shine more smacking SBO / Inferno Of Leviathan back at Squigly, hitting Crescent Cut where the tall hitbox will still reach Annie where an eyeball projectile would miss, sending Napalm Shot at Parasoul and having the tear left behind be on Umbrella's team, etc...

But I don't expect her to be standing her ground waiting for Peacock or Robo-Fortune to do anything so she can counter with sHP, like Cerebella does already, as that is Cerebella's thing and not Umbrella's.

that being said, would you like to try anything else to help her poor zoning MU's? I think people were talking about how a hit of armor to slurp n slide but making it more unsafe would be worth testing

 

[MadWolfDead]

I'm just gonna post a compiled list of suggestions for Umbrella, they might be good, might be bad, I just want to get these out there just in case

- The hitbox of Tongue Twister should extend to the entire tongue, and act as a snare while it's out. It'd give it a really cool use as an assist and as a point move would let her catch mobility characters much easier like Robo by setting out a 'no land zone'.

- Bubbles should go back to punches while Grinder, Slurp and Rush go to kick, this allows grinder to go back on charge (where I believe it fit/felt much better) while not overlapping with 6lp.

- I know this is a popular suggestion, but the two reflects (Retina and 5HP) should turn their projectiles into eyes, which lets the eye mechanic become a bigger part of Umbrella's kit rather than only part of a super.

- Bobble jump should be able to be done on puddles, right now only having it on bobble makes it feel to awkward to use properly and stops it from being a really useful part of her kit. Either that or make it so you can jump off Wish Maker / Airthrow bubbles that hard knockdowns the opponent for some cool Oki? Just something to give the jump a practical use.

- Give Ravenous less damage scaling to make it worth using instead of cashing out with Grinder, I know this one was said before but I wanna keep bringing it up cuz it sounds dope.

And now some things I haven't thought though as much
- Starving turns Level 3 into a hit grab or reversal, maybe even both to let it be both a true combo tool and way to get out of starving
- Bobble absorbing projectiles (not reflecting)
- Introduce SG's first charge super and make fireball Retina [4]6 PP and make reversal QCF PP, or reversal on QCF KK fireball on QCF PP

- put the nuisgwbirwhgwa meme into the game officially

 

[iControl]

Could the input for the dp super be changed for more consistency? I think a lot of sg characters have their main reversal super qcf/qcb. The only character I can think of that might use a reversal dp input super is Filia. Most Filia players reversal with Gregor so I don't think sg players would mind it being qcf +kk even tho it doesn't visually match with the lens input.

 

[acfan]

I made another video documenting certain characters not being hit by 5lk after a 5hk route (or being overtly difficult), and a few other things!

And I do agree with iControl's take on the SRK input for Retina; making it a 236kk would be a neat idea.

edit: excuse the typo with painwheel's section, 5lk not 2lk!

edit 2: depending on the height of when you press it, the low hitstun of 5lk can cause slower 5mp to drop when in overstuffed, could the hitstun of 5lk be looked at when you're in overstuffed mode? some characters you need to do it asap or they drop out, so it's a lose-lose kind of situation right now.

 

[Liam]

Hello, outside of a few bug fixes, the currently released version of Umbrella is likely what people will be playing with over the holidays until HVS is back in the office. Please feel free to leave feedback and such, and I'll read things when I'm back.

 

[Nuuance]

does tag-in still not work with squgly chord on certain characters? be dope to see compatibility. Also off throw they fall to the ground first then get bounced last time i saw w/retina reflector. if it's not supposed to save otg i can get that. But at least when i tried i couldn't.

Admittedly havent tested, but is retina reflector version f1 invincible to projectiles? if not, totally should. i get its not strike invincible for that version, makes sense. But yeah i think reward should be significant too as i dont see it being falled for much under normal circumstances. oh & shouldnt j.hp set off puddles or no?