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Umbrella hitbox interaction inconsistencies

Ranger

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(ty for the thumbnail YT!)
So yeah, the topic is inconsistencies in bella vs brella MU.
Here's a quick made video of most common ones I've found. Some footage sometimes overlap so I'll provide a bit of commentary in order:

1) First one is crLP whiffing on Brella otg; happens mostly in the corner, seen some instances of whiffing otg crLP crMP midscreen (couldnt replicate on camera, sorry). The temporary solution is to delay crLP just a tiny bit.

2) This one is two in one problem, or even three - depends on how you route the crLK crMK rs part. So, what I've noticed is that in the corner doing otg crLK crMK rs airthrow mixup puts umbrella out of the corner. While it adds up to the mix by providing sideswitch its something I wouldnt like when it happens not on my accord. You could try and alter the timing of actual airthrow but we'll come to that later. After that there's some trouble of actually picking up Umbrella from the ground - as you see sLK crMK whiffs. crLK crMK also likes to whiff unless you're very concsious about it and input with no delay. crLP crMK works fine but I've used other chains because I know its the way how some players confirm the airthrow.

3) Corner DH routes with Titan Knuckle in it doesnt work on Umbrella at all. To date thats the only light character in the game Bella cant do it on. I've tried different starters such as kanchou, DH, TK/crHP jHP microdash TK DH/MGR crLK crMP TK DH/JHK crMK TK DH - none of them work.

4) I guess its an ongoing Umbrella in the corner issue or crLK crMK issue at this point - spacing jHP for slightly out of corner mixup/route stabilisation. Like, say I wanna prevent air throw reset sidewitch to stop happening - I space the jHP out of corner to gain space. But I cant pick her up again! This works on other light characters (even painwheel) no biggie, but not on her.

5) This is the continuation of crLK crMK rs problem - delayed airthrow whiffs on Umbrella. Heck, the regularly timed airthrow whiffs occasionally. Not consistent overall.

6) crLK crMK whiffing primer example, but affecting of the bnb's this time (requires micro dash to work). Pain runs deep.

7) See №3, recorded this for visual example of DHs whiffing.

8) The most "consistent" DH routes I've found involves using microdashes on otg sweep and followups. Devil Horns still neatly whiff because boxes nicely evade each other as you can see it on 0:58 in the video.

9) Just a sample combo with typical crMK TK Excellabella ender midscreen. It works, but sometimes. crLP starter of the last chain is NOT advised (unless you microdash), crLK is much stable in that regard.

10) Example of crLK crMK rs crossunder low resets whiffing on Umbrella. Fixed by not dashing but slowly walking underneath her (or you can stop dash early but bella has explosive range on it depending on the timing so the thing you see in the video will happen most of the time). Sorta kills the side uncertainty for me but we can work with that.

11) j2MP conversions. I wont go over here why I still find them janky and inconsistent, but Umbrella is the worst offender right now with crMK whiffing. You kinda forced to go into (microdash preferred, but optional) crLP crMP (did I mention crLP otg sometimes whiffs on Umbrella?) crHP route, but depending on spacing - going for it from MGR for example - leaves jLP gatling barely connected. I can imagine it whiff or drop partially in tight situations.

So yeah, thats pretty much what I've found so far about Bella vs Brella inconsistencies. Fellow Bella mains feel free to provide more situations you found, and god I hope Liam at least glances over this.
 

Liam

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@Ranger , I'm going to just rename this thread of "Umbrella HItbox Interaction Inconsistencies". Anyone is welcome to post stuff not working on her and I'll go through the examples.

I know someone also posted some weirdness with Filia's OTG Ringlet confrim after Ground Throw for example, that can go here.

Thanks for the thread!
 

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@Ranger , I'm going to just rename this thread of "Umbrella HItbox Interaction Inconsistencies". Anyone is welcome to post stuff not working on her and I'll go through the examples.

I know someone also posted some weirdness with Filia's OTG Ringlet confrim after Ground Throw for example, that can go here.

Thanks for the thread!
Shouldn't it go somewhere else from Cerebella subforum then? I can imagine people missing this thread out.
 

Liam

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Yes! Good call, I'm moving this to the Umbrella section. Thanks. :)
 
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I'll edit this post to include any others I find but just from preliminary testing the only interactions I've found for my characters (Fortune, Val and Double) are:
- Fortune: sHP L Fiber doesn't work point blank vs standing Umbrella (it does work vs airborne Umbrella though)
- Val: for the M Bomber midscreen assist route (crHP M Bomber assist~Vial load), the M Bomber assist whiffs. This does happen vs Val and Squigly though so it's not a particularly high priority or anything but I just thought I'd mention it (can use sHP M Bomber instead, which is just harder).
- Double: during standard barrel loops, the jLK jMK jHK Barrel section is more finicky than usual vs Umbrella. It still works but Umbrella falls out of the barrel portion more often than other characters.
 
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236LK 214K 3 jLP 5MP whiffs if you don't hold forward midscreen
Umbrella seems really inconsistent for her midscreen combo (5MP jMP jHP 214K 9 jMK jHP jHK)
236LK 214K 9 jLP jLK 214K 1 jLK doesn't work (it's a reset)
5MP j236LK 214K 8 jMP can be a little awkward? I can't seem to get all 4 hits of jMP consistently. Might just be me though but it feels harder to time to me
 
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I would really want to ask @Liam if he doesnt mind, what are intended hitbox/hurtbox properties of Umbrella command throw are? So I could stop question what is intended and what is not. In the meantime I'll leave myself to linger in situations like this:
No counter hit on both sides btw
(Since spoilers seem to be not working with Imgur I'll link album instead: https: //imgur.com/a/TF2LQde
No idea how to make link not embed so I left space in it)

Although it did trade in closer situations by reasons unknown

Bonus Parasoul BnB vs Umbrella
 

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Umbrella falls out of everything that ends with eliza 2lp x2 2mk x2. This is problematic especially when wanting to end a combo
 
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Liam

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what are intended hitbox/hurtbox properties of Umbrella command throw are?

Due to the Skullgirls update order, command grab style attacks that deliver the grab from a hit that is not the point character CAN trade, this is a historical precedent from Squigly's Silver Chord. The point character should go invincible one frame after the hit has been confirmed.

If you see something that is not that, let me know, and I can take a look.

Also, all your embeds and spoilers seem broken for me, can you just hyperlink to them or something, like this?

Cerebella dynamo-mbeat extend conversion doesn't work on umbrella

Does this work on every other character in the game?
 

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Also, all your embeds and spoilers seem broken for me, can you just hyperlink to them or something, like this?
Forum has some issues capturing embedded pictures from imgur under spoiler for some reason. Anyway, here's the album.

Also for people that are posting here, please please try and include at least a screenshot with the hitboxes of the interaction that are you talking about! Its most likely more simple to point out the problem that way instead of saying "N thing doesn't work", thanks.
 

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hitboxes of the interaction that are you talking about
Thank you for saying so. When I am back home i'll include all the eliza stuff that misses on umbrella.
 
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Liam

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f5o2.gif


I've made some changes locally that will be the next build that has Umbrella changes. That's PROBABLY 3.3.5, but we're also working on some code only bug fixes which don't have character changes. When you see the Steam build that has character changes and mentions hurtbox changes, please test your stuff again!

Until then, I'll list out what I changed which will be in said build:














1) First one is crLP whiffing on Brella otg; happens mostly in the corner, seen some instances of whiffing otg crLP crMP midscreen (couldnt replicate on camera, sorry). The temporary solution is to delay crLP just a tiny bit.
I'm pulling her floor bounce hurtbox up a bit to prevent this. [CHANGED]

as you see sLK crMK whiffs. crLK crMK also likes to whiff unless you're very concsious about it and input with no delay. crLP crMK works fine but I've used other chains because I know its the way how some players confirm the airthrow.
I use jLK cLP cMK myself, sLK cMK doesn't feel as unstable? At the very least, hitting the sLK will connect now because of...

Cerebella dynamo-mbeat extend conversion doesn't work on umbrella
3) Corner DH routes with Titan Knuckle in it doesnt work on Umbrella at all.
4) I guess its an ongoing Umbrella in the corner issue or crLK crMK issue at this point
6) crLK crMK whiffing primer example
7) See №3, recorded this for visual example of DHs whiffing.
I've extended her hurtbox on her back further towards the attacker on OTG to allow these to work. [CHANGED]

Devil Horns still neatly whiff because boxes nicely evade each other as you can see it on 0:58 in the video.
Yeah Umbrella doesn't use the standard banana shaped hitstun because her legs aren't flying out as far. I'm adjusting her air hitstun shape to be a little more in line with other characters. [CHANGED]

9) Just a sample combo with typical crMK TK Excellabella ender midscreen. It works, but sometimes. crLP starter of the last chain is NOT advised (unless you microdash), crLK is much stable in that regard.
Knockback air hitstun has more hurtbox on Hungern stretching out for her to grab on to, but she still might be finicky. [CHANGED]

10) Example of crLK crMK rs crossunder low resets whiffing on Umbrella.
Record it on Umbrella using P2 as Cerebella, then play that back but after switching to Squigly point, and the whiffs seem to line up on both of them. This isn't unique to Umbrella, she's just thin. [HOLD THAT]

11) j2MP conversions. I wont go over here why I still find them janky and inconsistent,
Same as her on back OTG hitstun, I've pulled her hurtbox towards the victim for the space that Hungern occupies when he flips in front of her head. [CHANGED]

- Fortune: sHP L Fiber doesn't work point blank vs standing Umbrella (it does work vs airborne Umbrella though)
Idle hurtbox can be extended a few pixels to account for this, then that was propagated through all of the states that use it. [CHANGED]

- Val: for the M Bomber midscreen assist route (crHP M Bomber assist~Vial load), the M Bomber assist whiffs. This does happen vs Val and Squigly though so it's not a particularly high priority or anything but I just thought I'd mention it (can use sHP M Bomber instead, which is just harder).
- Double: during standard barrel loops, the jLK jMK jHK Barrel section is more finicky than usual vs Umbrella. It still works but Umbrella falls out of the barrel portion more often than other characters.
I have a feeling the air hitstun adjustment will make these more consistent. Try again?

236LK 214K 3 jLP 5MP whiffs if you don't hold forward midscreen
I don't want to make her any thicker than she already is at the moment, but I might revisit it in the fuutre. I think she will have to do a different route. [HOLD THAT]

236LK 214K 9 jLP jLK 214K 1 jLK doesn't work (it's a reset)
When performed tightly this whiffs on Squigly too yeah? [HOLD THAT]

5MP j236LK 214K 8 jMP can be a little awkward? I can't seem to get all 4 hits of jMP consistently. Might just be me though but it feels harder to time to me
Needs a video. Try again also post air hitstun hurtbox extension.

@Ranger , "no bike fail safe confirmed" video, I don't know what I'm looking at here? Command grabs are invincible, the bike can't hit her out of it.
@Ranger , "parasoul bnb whiff" needs more context.

Umbrella falls out of everything that ends with eliza 2lp x2 2mk x2
Needs video post hurtbox changes if it's still going on.
 

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@Liam, I realize it may have been confusing the way I described it last time so I'm bringing it up again in video format.
Important for optimal air toss combos
Gonna post video this time, also said jHP last time by mistake, oops.
Also yeah, I stand corrected about the bike vs cmd interaction now so nevermind that.
 

Liam

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@Liam, I realize it may have been confusing the way I described it last time so I'm bringing it up again in video format.


1631562810230.png


This is pretty finicky on other characters (Painwheel for example), and if youre about to do the route I think you're about to do, cMK is universal and does way more damage than sMK. Prooobably leaving this as is for now.
 

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This is pretty finicky on other characters (Painwheel for example), and if youre about to do the route I think you're about to do, cMK is universal and does way more damage than sMK. Prooobably leaving this as is for now.
Thanks, I just didnt know.
 

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I'll edit this post to include any others I find but just from preliminary testing the only interactions I've found for my characters (Fortune, Val and Double) are:
- Fortune: sHP L Fiber doesn't work point blank vs standing Umbrella (it does work vs airborne Umbrella though)
- Val: for the M Bomber midscreen assist route (crHP M Bomber assist~Vial load), the M Bomber assist whiffs. This does happen vs Val and Squigly though so it's not a particularly high priority or anything but I just thought I'd mention it (can use sHP M Bomber instead, which is just harder).
- Double: during standard barrel loops, the jLK jMK jHK Barrel section is more finicky than usual vs Umbrella. It still works but Umbrella falls out of the barrel portion more often than other characters.
Update on these w/new patch: Fortune sHP L Fiber works now (woooo!) and Double barrel loops feel more consistent (they can still drop but they feel pretty in line with the rest of the cast now). The Val crHP M Bomber thing still doesn't work but that's not a particularly high priority.

I also haven't found anything else weird dropping vs Umbrella with Val/MF/DB fwiw. Maybe I'll spot stuff when I play some matches vs her but just from the occasional labbing I've been doing since making my previous post, I haven't found anything noteworthy. It seems my team got pretty lucky with Umbrella combos haha.
 
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