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Under Night In-Birth

Ruin said:
8-2 match ups are gord v akatsuki
aka "this is just sad and not very fun to watch"
I just had this match-up for the first time today (with myself as the Akastruggle). Gord turned me into a mop to wipe the my scrub away... I forgot how big of a range Mortal Slide was (and also not parrying). Back to the lab.
 
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theonlypie314 said:
BrkrDave is a really good US Chaos player and I wish I could find stream archives of his matches to link here.
There was that 7v7 at UGC where he and the whole SoCal group got blown up. Much as I like him, BrkrDave is a local maximum, sadly.
 
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Squire Grooktook said:
Picked this up yesterday. I kinda like how it's a little more slanted towards oldschool fighters then pure air-dashiness. Might try to learn Seth, or Linne and Hyde.

Yeah, the footsie game is amazing. That's why I have such a dislike for the top 3 as they effectively take the most interesting part of the game and shit on it. The game goes from this great poke and position game to this kind of meh "dash > block [repeat]" type of game.
 
The game has a lot of unique characters. It's great that they have this old school feeling while still retaining a lot more free elements that make Airdash fighters so open ended. Its a great balance.
 
If the game isn't as balanced as you like at a higher level, either play a more balanced game or play a better character.
 
I hardly think that is a great solution.

If you love a game despite its imbalances or quirks, it seems reasonable to hope (and fight) for those to change.

You know... like assist calls during double jumps by way of example?

UNIEL is fantastic in a ton of ways, and if it doesn't get balanced ever again... so be it. Doesn't mean that people can't/won't/shouldn't hope for it to get more balanced.
 
If Skullgirls had that development philosophy then we would be stuck with a very different and arguably inferior game. Not to mention telling x to leave y fight community isn't exactly beneficial for the longevity of the scene.
 
But.... this is the UNIEL thread? Not a SG thread?

If you don't like playing against Gord/Merk in this game, you don't (wont) like this game competitively.
 
Squire Grooktook: a fighting game can't even begin to be considered mature or explored till like...3 years in IMO
Squire Grooktook: And that's for fighters that everyone plays and dissects like sf4 or mvc3
Squire Grooktook: I don't consider a game old or near fully explored til it's like 8+ at least
Squire Grooktook: which is why I have to laugh at people on forums whining about how they can't beat Merk with their Akatsuki
Kubla Conversation: patched happen before 8 years
Kubla Conversation: you calling those choices premature?
Kubla Conversation: liek
Squire Grooktook: Not nessicarily
Kubla Conversation: deal with this for 8 years
Kubla Conversation: then we'll patch
Squire Grooktook: Arcade version added more stuff, and rebalanced stuff
Kubla Conversation: we dont know how to change until then
Squire Grooktook: might as well while their technically on a new game
Squire Grooktook: not saying sequels shouldn't come out in under 8 years
Squire Grooktook: BUT
Squire Grooktook: I don't think statements about balance and whatnot are reliable a year or two in
Squire Grooktook: Games can and have changed completely radically 2 or 3 years in
Squire Grooktook: top tier characters can become mid or low when new stuff gets discovered and vice versa
Squire Grooktook: rare for something as extreme as that but still
 
Tomo009 said:
If you don't like playing against Gord/Merk in this game, you don't (wont) like this game competitively.

Now this is a true statement.

I'll go one further and say you won't like this game period. Gord (though not Merk it seems) is dramatically over-represented online.
 
I dun like fighting Merk, he agravates me, but I like this game online. Getting to stomp on Gords with Vatista is so satisfying! >:D
 
my first netplay victory (after like 20 losses straight because I decided to jump in without trying stuff out for more than half an hour) was a result of me doing run up DP three times in a row.

my winrate is probably less than 10% rofl

I also haven't played this game in a while D:
 
Number 13 said:
If Skullgirls had that development philosophy then we would be stuck with a very different and arguably inferior game..

You are absolutely correct!

However, every single non-skullgirls game doesn't really crowdsource their balance suggestions to any serious degree, talk with the players of the game at length, or have truly high-level considerations when balancing their games. This is actually one of my reasons for staying with the game for so long, because it's been quickly and continually improving as a game. It went from vanilla kusoge to pretty fkn legit game pretty damn quickly.

In every single other fighting game pretty much you're going to get glaring horrible balance errors that are not going to be fixed any time soon, and even if the game does get an update chances are there will be lots of horrible flaws still present. See: SF4.

Now, what are your options for playing a game that doesn't get sufficiently fixed over time, retains balance problems, and your favourite character is shit tier, and the devs don't give enough of a shit to fix the problems? Your options are remain a low tier hero(and lose more), pick a better character or play a more balanced game/game with a top tier character you actually do like playing.

Spencer said:
I hardly think that is a great solution..

Too bad. Welcome to non-Skullgirls fighting games.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Too bad. Welcome to non-Skullgirls fighting games.

Maybe that's the case, but it seems pretty natural to me that people will come and vent out frustration. Merk and Gord are not fun match-ups, and they are doubly so for new players as the deck starts stacked pretty hard against you until you start learning it more.

I don't think people are coming to SH in the hopes that some UNIEL dev is going to alter the game.

So telling people to move on just reminds me of the funny because it is annoying "If you don't like it, move to Russia".

 
There's a Soviet Announcer joke to be made here...
Merk and Gord bathe in the tears of scrubs? Nah...
eh, whatever, I tried.
As far as balance go, I'd wager Merk is the bigger threat, as Gord plays closer to the game's style. In order to beat Gord, you have to know Gord. I don't have as much trouble with him as I used to cause I play more defensively. Gord leaves himself WIDE open after most of his scythe attacks, while Merkava just generally NEVER STOPS BEING A PAIN.
 
I swear I only play Merk because he's my husbando
 
ClarenceMage said:
Now, what are your options for playing a game that doesn't get sufficiently fixed over time, retains balance problems, and your favourite character is shit tier, and the devs don't give enough of a shit to fix the problems? Your options are remain a low tier hero(and lose more), pick a better character or play a more balanced game/game with a top tier character you actually do like playing.

Too bad. Welcome to non-Skullgirls fighting games.

This may seem like a really weird concept but there are some players who want to play their favourite character REGARDLESS of what tier they are. They LEARN their character and how to deal with their character's faults. Taking SFIV for example, a lower tier character won EVO last year and it just goes to show you that lower tier characters CAN win. Or Blazblue's Kokonoe, known for being a higher tier character, did not make it to the top 8 at EVO. I find it incredibly demeaning to tell the community for loves the game or those who may play a lower tier character that "Hey, because of certain characters you are going to lose all the time so you might as well get out" or just to pick someone else. Sure, it may seem a lot easier to just pick someone high tier and I am well aware that some players will pick their character based on their tier.

As an example, I main Aka and I've seen several posts in this thread how terrible he is. I've played a few online matches with the guy and I know first hand just how bad match ups can get for him. I've lost a lot and I know I need to spend a lot of time training to get better. I am very aware of how much of an uphill battle this is going to be if I continue to main him. Before suggesting I play a higher tier character, I've tried the cast out and I do like Eltnum and Seth but I ENJOY playing Aka and he's fun. It feels very rewarding to learn to play him despite how much of a terrible decision this may seem to anyone else. This may also apply to anyone else who plays a lower tier character but I'm very prepared for the struggle; I WANT to learn how to deal with his faults, the infamously bad MUs with Gord and Merk, and I want to get better from it.
 
theonlypie314 said:
I WANT to learn how to deal with his faults, the infamously bad MUs with Gord and Merk, and I want to get better from it.

That's good!

I hope you're also not saying stuff like "The game would be better without Merk/Gord, I wish they weren't in the game" because that's just complaining and has nothing to do with overcoming Akatsuki's faults, or calling people who play those characters scumbags, or other methods of complaining about your character/the game, since those actively hamper process of gitting gud.

I remember playing Akatsuki as my attempted main when the game released. As far as gameplan goes with Akatsuki vs GURIM RIIPA and Wiggly arms, it seems to be like the best thing to do is shield EVERYTHING to gain enough GRD to fireball->Chain shift and get in that ass, also see if you can parry supers post-flash. I don't remember if it works but I'm pretty sure Akatsuki should be able to do it.

Merk's 214A doesn't have a hurtbox on it (WHY) so you can't get anything from reflecting it, but you can shield it on reaction(offline anyway). Especially look for any moves you can get guaranteed Sheild off of so you can sap their GRD to prepare for fireball->Chain shift. For zoning them you can cancel fireball into EX Fireball/EX DP as well after your fireball comes out. Get in on either of those characters and you better have amazing stagger, reverse beat and tick throw pressure to fuck them up. Akatsuki's close 5C is +0 on block so that can be a good pressure reset point. You might already know this stuff but I may as well post it.

theonlypie314 said:
"Hey, because of certain characters you are going to lose all the time so you might as well get out" or just to pick someone else.

I didn't mean to imply "might as well get out", but I'm just saying that you are going to lose all the time because of character select with a low tier character select choice and you should either be okay with that OR play a different game. You're going to fight bad matchups where a player who is like 2x a worse player than you but you lose because the risk/reward is so heavily in their favour.
 
ClarenceMage said:
I didn't mean to imply "might as well get out", but I'm just saying that you are going to lose all the time because of character select with a low tier character select choice and you should either be okay with that OR play a different game. You're going to fight bad matchups where a player who is like 2x a worse player than you but you lose because the risk/reward is so heavily in their favour.

I think I misunderstood you then, so sorry if I was unduly rude.
 
theonlypie314 said:
This may seem like a really weird concept but there are some players who want to play their favourite character REGARDLESS of what tier they are. They LEARN their character and how to deal with their character's faults. Taking SFIV for example, a lower tier character won EVO last year and it just goes to show you that lower tier characters CAN win.
Actually, that just shows that the current interpretation of the tier list was wrong at that point. Rose is now definitely not considered lower tier.

Also, the tier gap matters, i.e. the difference between top and bottom tier. There are some games in which you can't really "learn to deal with a character's faults" because you'll just lose anyway to any half competent player. Tager vs V-13 in BBCT, Hayato/Jill/etc in MvC2, 3s, and on. The tier gap in GGAC is pretty small, comparatively.

You don't have to listen, but as someone who was a low tier hero in basically every game except Third Strike, to me the tier gap between Merk/Gord and Aka is gigantic.
 
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Not sure why people are making such a big deal about Aka anyway, he looks like kind of a boring character gameplay wise IMO.

ClarenceMage said:
Wiggly arms

Canon name from now on
 
Spencer said:
Yeah, the footsie game is amazing.

..

The game goes from this great poke and position game to this kind of meh "dash > block [repeat]" type of game.

wut
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Not sure why people are making such a big deal about Aka anyway, he looks like kind of a boring character gameplay wise IMO.
Aka is a character with good fundamental design and a satisfying feel to his combos and even single attacks. His moves just have a nice bite to them. Like you're really cracking someone in the jaw with lightning fists.
He just suffers from being in the wrong goddamn game.
Like the system and other characters are just not nice to him at all. AT ALL. The dude's longest normal is, like, a character and a half away, at most. Compared to Mr. 3/4 screen Merk over there.
I love playing Aka but man
fuck
 
Ruin said:
...good fundamental design...
Ruin said:
...He just suffers from being in the wrong goddamn game...
Sounds like a bit of a contradiction.

I can empathize with the punching feels good. Does he feel as good in his home game? IMO probably better off playing him there if so. *edit* (or alternatively just play him in mirror matches only)

Otherwise I don't see the point of playing a bad character with no range and no fun gimmicks in a game full of people with good range and fun gimmicks. It's like complaining that Ryu is bad in Mvc2. Why would you want to play freaking Ryu in Marvel?
 
Squire Grooktook said:
Ruin said:
...good fundamental design...
Ruin said:
...He just suffers from being in the wrong goddamn game...
Sounds like a bit of a contradiction.

I can empathize with the punching feels good. Does he feel as good in his home game? IMO probably better off playing him there if so. *edit* (or alternatively just play him in mirror matches only)

Otherwise I don't see the point of playing a bad character with no range and no fun gimmicks in a game full of people with good range and fun gimmicks. It's like complaining that Ryu is bad in Mvc2. Why would you want to play freaking Ryu in Marvel?
I dunno, I thought he was pretty clear. If Aka were in a game with character abilities more in line with his, he could work well, but as it stands, he's outclassed despite being satisfying to play as a singular entity. I think it's perfectly fair to lament the fact that characters like MvC2 Ryu or UNIEL Aka are ass. Some tuning could keep their basic design intact while bringing them in-line with other characters. So, "why didn't they do that?" is a valid gripe, imo.
 
Night Phyre said:
I dunno, I thought he was pretty clear. If Aka were in a game with character abilities more in line with his, he could work well, but as it stands, he's outclassed despite being satisfying to play as a singular entity.

Yeah but that's still not "good fundamental design" imo. If something doesn't work well in the context of the game or system it's in, then it's not very well designed imo. The platforming controls in Mega Man are pretty well designed, but they wouldn't be if you just copy and pasted Mega Man into say, Super Mario Bros. For one thing, he wouldn't be able jump over longer gaps without Mario's momentum. On the other hand, goombas and most enemies would now be trivial and pointless with a rapid fire buster always on hand. You could probably say almost anything game related could be "good" if you just imagined it being lifted into a more fitting setting.

I get what he meant, but I don't think I would say Aka has good fundamentals from what I understand. At least not in this game.

Actually come to think of it, this reminds me of a game I played recently called Insanity's Blade. Some neat mechanics on the main character that felt pretty good, but damn if almost everything around him wasn't fucked up.

Night Phyre said:
I think it's perfectly fair to lament the fact that characters like MvC2 Ryu or UNIEL Aka are ass. Some tuning could keep their basic design intact while bringing them in-line with other characters. So, "why didn't they do that?" is a valid gripe, imo.
I suppose, I just still can't understand wanting to play a character like Ryu in Marvel (who gets joked on for being boring in his home game at times) in a game full of wacky flying/tri-jumping/projectile spewing murder machines.
 
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TLDR with regards to tiers

Git gud (EDIT: or pick a top tier) and don't complain.

But really, don't complain because no one likes complainers.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
The platforming controls in Mega Man are pretty well designed, but they wouldn't be if you just copy and pasted Mega Man into say, Super Mario Bros.

http://explodingrabbit.com/pages/super-mario-bros-crossover/

Enjoy!

Damn I wish UNIEL had rollback netcode fuck I wish everything was on PC and had rollback netcode japan pls french bread pls arcsys pls there are no local players and I want time spent online to actually mean something. I'm getting depressed about how I can only play a few games from home that have actually meaningful gameplay, when meets aren't frequent enough at my location.
 
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Ruin said:
Aka is a character with good fundamental design and a satisfying feel to his combos and even single attacks. His moves just have a nice bite to them. Like you're really cracking someone in the jaw with lightning fists.
He just suffers from being in the wrong goddamn game.
Like the system and other characters are just not nice to him at all. AT ALL. The dude's longest normal is, like, a character and a half away, at most. Compared to Mr. 3/4 screen Merk over there.
I love playing Aka but man
fuck
Well, he is a guest character (from Akatsuki Blitzkampf, to be specific). Maybe he's better there.
 
ClarenceMage said:
That's good!

I hope you're also not saying stuff like "The game would be better without Merk/Gord, I wish they weren't in the game" because that's just complaining and has nothing to do with overcoming Akatsuki's faults, or calling people who play those characters scumbags, or other methods of complaining about your character/the game, since those actively hamper process of gitting gud.

Nah, that wasn't what I was implying or complaining. As I said, I know and read what I am getting into and I have experienced how bad his Gord MU is too (never played against a Merk yet). I am also trying to defer complainers about bad MUs because there are options against those infamously bad ones. That's why I posted the Anti-Gord video awhile ago so anyone having problems with Gord can see what to do against him.

ClarenceMage said:
That's good!
I remember playing Akatsuki as my attempted main when the game released. As far as gameplan goes with Akatsuki vs GURIM RIIPA and Wiggly arms, it seems to be like the best thing to do is shield EVERYTHING to gain enough GRD to fireball->Chain shift and get in that ass, also see if you can parry supers post-flash. I don't remember if it works but I'm pretty sure Akatsuki should be able to do it.

Merk's 214A doesn't have a hurtbox on it (WHY) so you can't get anything from reflecting it, but you can shield it on reaction(offline anyway). Especially look for any moves you can get guaranteed Sheild off of so you can sap their GRD to prepare for fireball->Chain shift. For zoning them you can cancel fireball into EX Fireball/EX DP as well after your fireball comes out. Get in on either of those characters and you better have amazing stagger, reverse beat and tick throw pressure to fuck them up. Akatsuki's close 5C is +0 on block so that can be a good pressure reset point. You might already know this stuff but I may as well post it.

Thanks for the advice! I just found that the A version of Volt Bullet is good for GRD and I can get anyone jumping in with 22B. Also learning options from 6C too.

Mike_Z said:
Actually, that just shows that the current interpretation of the tier list was wrong at that point. Rose is now definitely not considered lower tier.

Also, the tier gap matters, i.e. the difference between top and bottom tier. There are some games in which you can't really "learn to deal with a character's faults" because you'll just lose anyway to any half competent player. Tager vs V-13 in BBCT, Hayato/Jill/etc in MvC2, 3s, and on. The tier gap in GGAC is pretty small, comparatively.

You don't have to listen, but as someone who was a low tier hero in basically every game except Third Strike, to me the tier gap between Merk/Gord and Aka is gigantic.

I thought Rose was low tier before EVO? I might have been mistaken, and I apologize if she wasn't.

I also know that tier gap does matter and there are very viable reasons how each character got to where they are on the tier list. I didn't mean that the tier gap doesn't matter, just that I personally enjoy playing the character I like whatever their tier may be and I want to learn them despite how hard it might be. As I mentioned, I fought against Gord as Aka the other day and got stomped on by Gord. Hard. And yeah, that MU is as bad as everyone says it is.. but when you learn what you can do against those characters to get better, I think it makes it all worth while. It might be a bit naive but that's what makes it fun and an enjoyable experience for me is that I get to learn from it.
 
^^^ thing is, you don't want to do that when it legitimately becomes unwinnable or near unwinnable at a certain point for some games. A bit too early to tell if that's the case for UNIEL imo, but sometimes there's really nothing that can be done. I can think of a few match ups in Mvc2 at least that are capital u Unwinnable if the opponent knows what they are doing.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
^^^ thing is, you don't want to do that when it legitimately becomes unwinnable or near unwinnable at a certain point for some games. A bit too early to tell if that's the case for UNIEL imo, but sometimes there's really nothing that can be done. I can think of a few match ups in Mvc2 at least that are capital u Unwinnable if the opponent knows what they are doing.
Merk vs Akat seems pretty unwinnable as long as merkava is playing the MU correctly.
 
Ruin said:
8-2 match ups are gord v akatsuki
aka "this is just sad and not very fun to watch"
Even then that's not an 8-2.

An 8-2 is something like Super Chun Li vs. 2012 Zangief.
 
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Blaise said:
Most matchups are even. Judging the games matchups with Hilda is like judging SF4 with Dhalsim matchups :p. Even then her worse matchup is prob Linne with it being 6.5 Linnes favor. Orie and Seth also give her trouble.
and I don't think you know what a 8-2 matchup looks like haha

I played a solo parasoul at one point and i've dealt with peacock with brass knuckles, i know what a bad mu is ty

Watch a hilda/ata fight and you'll see why i say that. Akataski can't do anything to her in neutral. His only option is qcf+c which loses to hilda's 22c/22b, hcf+c(air and ground), j.[c] or the only answer he has against her is yolo hcf+D

Once he's in he can pressure her but if he screws up on a read i can Gatling him back into neutral. So basically qcb+b, karate chop and even dive if they're done incorrectly he literally lost his chance. If he doesn't have chainshift...he has to commit.

The only way he can stop her in neutral is the player needs to be godly with his parry. which even then lynchpin is -3 and he doesn't have tools which Hilda needs to stuff with 623a. So i can literally do whatever i want, whenever i want and he just has to deal with it. Just go look up videos if you can find any. You'll see what i mean.
 
I have a question for @Blaise or anyone else who plays at a higher level.

I've watched a few matches and noticed that some players seem to chain shift randomly without going into another move or making the move safe on block. Is there a reason for this? Is it for meter gain?

Examples:
In case the time stamp doesn't work.. start at 53 seconds for this video

42s

27s
 
agent13 said:
I played a solo parasoul at one point and i've dealt with peacock with brass knuckles, i know what a bad mu is ty

Watch a hilda/ata fight and you'll see why i say that. Akataski can't do anything to her in neutral. His only option is qcf+c which loses to hilda's 22c/22b, hcf+c(air and ground), j.[c] or the only answer he has against her is yolo hcf+D

Once he's in he can pressure her but if he screws up on a read i can Gatling him back into neutral. So basically qcb+b, karate chop and even dive if they're done incorrectly he literally lost his chance. If he doesn't have chainshift...he has to commit.

The only way he can stop her in neutral is the player needs to be godly with his parry. which even then lynchpin is -3 and he doesn't have tools which Hilda needs to stuff with 623a. So i can literally do whatever i want, whenever i want and he just has to deal with it. Just go look up videos if you can find any. You'll see what i mean.
I can tell you never actually fought an experienced Akatsuki, which is fine. Discussing it with a good Akatsuki player friend of mine, the matchup is slightly in Akatsuki's favor. Akatsuki has good answers to Hilda strings with parry and once Akatsuki gets in she is done. Parry allows Akatsuki to call out alot of her strings, as well as just plain punish something like 5[c] on reaction. The only problem Akatsuki has is lynchpin and 623B, which are both plus even if Akatsuki parrys them. As for neutral, Akatsuki can just keep blocking and gain grd then get it with a parry. Once Akatsuki knocks her down, she has no effective way to stop him outside of a risky VO. She lacks a fast, good hitbox normal to poke him out, so his pressure keeps on going for days.
 
theonlypie314 said:
I have a question for @Blaise or anyone else who plays at a higher level.

I've watched a few matches and noticed that some players seem to chain shift randomly without going into another move or making the move safe on block. Is there a reason for this? Is it for meter gain?
  • CS in neutral generates 20 meter per grd block
  • CS in neutral while the opponent is in hitstun generates 16 meter per grd block
  • CS cancelling a move on hit or block generates 12 meter per grd block
  • CS cancelling a special on whiff generates 8 meter per grd block
So pretty much people will CS in neutral if they want more meter, as they gain more. A more common situation however is people will just CS to freeze the screen and get a grasp on what their next move should be.
 
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