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@gllt Will do it. This is gonna help a lot with unstanced combo development and corner experiments outside of the formulas you guys provide here.
Btw, I saw someone saying that they use Battle Opera a lot to do resets. Any optimal or tip on using it? (not sure if this is the right thread for this kind of doubt but since we're /back to squigs) Edit: NVM, found the Tech Thread
@gllt i REALLY don't like that...w/eliza...it's actually been on my mind today lol. And I rarely get hung up like that...but it really irritates me. I don't see the point
Anyways just my 2 cents, using SBO for resets is dumb Imo. Aside from Charged DP, meter use is squigs only way to escape pressure or instantly react/confirm. There are plenty of other ways to continue damage...especially for squigs.
I mainly think it should be used for Anti-airs for characters out of air-super range or who don't have supers who've committed to a move (parasol as a prime example & Painwheel as one of the worst for Mk+Hk SBO)
Also great for safe tags (double especially) or safe DHCs...or DHCs for supers you can't usually pickup. I typically wouldn't post this but as you're a new player I think it might offer some inspiration. About 3 mins or so but check out the whole vid ;) For example you can now pickup Robo-fortunes magnet super with it and in some instances beowulfs air super
P.S. Don't bother posting it now, but for later stuff feel free
Hey all, new to both the forum and the game. Forgive me if this is repeating other stuff from the thread--it's a lot to take in! But I wanna talk about a reset I found real quick.
I noticed just now that air throw into MK divekick leads into an OTG combo. Forum's search function shows that I'm not the first person to do this, unsurprisingly, but it hasn't been discussed in like a year, so maybe something's changed in the meantime.
Anyway, I'm naturally wondering two things: when's an appropriate time to reset into this, and how do I follow it up?
The best time I can think to reset into this is after jHP rejump in combos that involve that maneuver; it seems to be the least telegraphed time to do it since you're usually following with LP or LK. Are there any other appropriate times to do it? Maybe after SBO in certain combos? And say your opponent starts catching wise and teching the throw--what's the next option to defeat that? I'm thinking the answer is to punish the whiffed throw animation (that's how tech throws work, right?) but I'm not sure with what. Chord looks like it could work if charged; cHK might barely snag them, but doesn't seem to combo well; everything else looks either too slow or not rangey enough. The most promising mixup here seems to be dash into either LP or grab. Those two lose to throwing out an attack, but given your frame advantage you could have just air thrown. Mashing out a move with invincible startup would defeat both the air throw and the dash options, but that would lose to just blocking--are there any moves in the game with both invincible startup and safety on block? Is my summary of the situation complete, or is there more to do with this?
As for followups: I'm in combo stage 3 after the divekick, so everything from that point on counts towards IPS. The best followup I can figure is cLK sMK sHK into more air chains, which is nice because it lets you carry them most of the way across the stage with Squigly's air chains into another opportunity at the same reset except now they're in the corner, or at least pretty close. Is there something better, though?
@Life hey there! welcome to the forums. Looks like youve jumped into squigs quite a bit ;) definitely check out "mountlover's ultimate squigly guide" (on youtube) for now until I make my own updated and fully-scripted one. Anyways to answer your questions:
Forum's search function shows that I'm not the first person to do this, unsurprisingly, but it hasn't been discussed in like a year, so maybe something's changed in the meantime.
Typically when it comes to info, it's usually brought up once if we can help it. The way info's just randomly all over the place really annoys me and i wish there was a simpler way to aggregate everything (i might discuss this with other mods later on) but stuff's rarely brought back up unless...updates or something that builds upon it.
The best time I can think to reset into this is after jHP rejump in combos that involve that maneuver; it seems to be the least telegraphed time to do it since you're usually following with LP or LK.
Lol these days this is a plain giveaway. It does have quit a few options so it's a good 50/50 for opponents who don't have air supers or dont mash much, but to be honest, these days you just gotta learn which air resets are popular (painwheel especially) and just go from there. Squigly's resets have been done to death so don't count on really catching people habitually. But feel free to experiment :) Whatever seems to work for you, try it out and dont be afraid to build on it or try different things completely.
I'm thinking the answer is to punish the whiffed throw animation (that's how tech throws work, right?)
The best way in my opinion is to punish (whiffed air throw assumedly) is with a late jump normal like j.lk. This has the best range and damage is literally only a teensy weensy bit lower than j.lp. Anytime you jump with squigs, use j.lk to make you more safe. You'll learn to love it :) In regards to squigs, she has an invincible dp under special circumstances but it's not really the move you wanna use. Also....punishing with meter is a choice, but id advise against it so you can save your meter for defensive options. However, if you're not entirely confident with your punish or they have an air super (excluding painwheel's, it beats everything) then for sure use it.
As for followups:
the first and biggest mistake everyone makes with squigly is to go for air chains directly off the bat and i cannot express how much this pisses me off and grates. Squigly in terms of corner pressure is almost non-existant. Her pressure is the same anywhere on screen. In fact squigs damage is among the best in the game and can do 7k combos comfortably with no charge. 7.4-5k w/charge VERY easily and 8k incredibly easy with charge....you don't need the corner at all. if you wanna DHC...then maybe...but still. get as many seria canceled ground chains off as possible, then work the middle of the combo with air chains, then finish typically with another ground chain
Hope this helps.
P.S. It's typically better with squigs to go for straight resets. air grabs are indeed good, but you're still gonna have to reset after them to get back to normal damage. Might as well just skip the middle-man and go for the normal non-throw reset, you know. but naturally throw resets are for sure necessary
Thanks for the tips! I actually just found Mountlover's guide a few hours ago, I found it pretty helpful despite its age and look forward to your updated version.
I guess just delaying the LK should really have occurred to me hehehe. So from delayed LK I could go MK HK divekick into more Seria shenanigans on the ground, and if they block it would still be pretty much entirely safe, especially if I have charge. I go for the air throw if they're used to blocking the late-LK reset; if they start teching the throw I can go back to LK.
Anything else I should know about that I wouldn't have already encountered?
HK Divekick cant be made safe with charge or anything in the air for that matter....so yeah.
and yeah just switch everything up and slightly delay the j.lk so you don't actually get thrown. in regards to stuff you might have missed I'll direct you over to the tech thread, but since again...so messy, i'll slightly detail this and post this vid since it has to do with combo potential.
Eh, the 8.4k combo is only easy if you go for the c.hp burst bait one. The one I use is harder, but leaves you at better advantage if the combo doesn't kill.
Not that you should do a full combo without killing or DHCing anyways.
Eh, the 8.4k combo is only easy if you go for the c.hp burst bait one. The one I use is harder, but leaves you at better advantage if the combo doesn't kill.
Not that you should do a full combo without killing or DHCing anyways.
"only easy?" there's only 1 combo I personally know that actually gets 8.4k from anywhere w/the burst bait. Whatever combo you're referring to i'd love to see if you get similar damage
And better advantage how so? You mean frame advantage or subjectively speaking...? Would love to see
ohhh i see now...*sigh* dubble s.hp. no thanks :p controller over here. But super hella cool. in regards to advantage though i still think in this case its pretty subjective but i see what you mean. nice combo man :)
I was actually having trouble getting the timing down for sHPx2->sHP (I'm on keyboard for the moment). That's, what, a 2-frame trick? sHP comes out frame 17 and has 18 frames of advantage after a charged stance cancel.
I then realized I was mashing my sHP to get the second hit as fast as possible when there's basically no benefit to doing so, as there's plenty of leeway to get the second one out (you can practically hitconfirm it). A 2-frame window is not consistently mashable; that would involve mashing out 30 inputs per second to get 100% of the time. Not only that, but it's my laptop keyboard, so I should probably be going gentle on it anyway.
It's much easier with discipline, which really seems to be the story of fighting games in general.
Unfortunately, I realized I mash a bunch during my combos in general. There's enough leeway to allow for that a lot of the time, but not always. Best to get back in the lab and fix that...
You can't really mash to get the HP - HP link. Appropriately enough for Squigly though, there's a real rhythm to her stancel combos. Oddly, it's more of a vivace or allegro than a grave. Seriously, set a metronome around 150 BPM and it'll sync up with your stancels
Yeah when it comes to certain moves, you can't just mash. The only mashing that really works (for me) with squigs is s.hp > uncharged stancel > s.lp. Everything else you gotta get timing Down
What's Squigly's best punish combo off a burst bait? I've been experimenting with (baited burst > silver chord > fluff) but I can't help but feel Squig has some better options for burst punishing.
What's Squigly's best punish combo off a burst bait? I've been experimenting with (baited burst > silver chord > fluff) but I can't help but feel Squig has some better options for burst punishing.
Not entirely sure how long vulnerability is after a burst (and it depends where they are after the burst) but couldn't seria cancel->dash forward->cLK or sLP->do the combo over again work?
That said, I have a hard time getting in with s.hp after a burst bait for a true counterhit. Would need better set ups than I currently do most likely.
Does anyone actually get successful burst baits anymore? As far as reversals go, I'm extraordinarily jealous of your 4 frame heavies. The only realistic reversals I can think of that allow heavy punishes are Dynamo, SSJ, Car, BFF, and some tags, depending on your character. Seriously. Bang! is -9. Updo xx Gregor is -14 if you stand block. DP xx SBO is -5. L bomber xx Catellites is +40 or so.
This is not a direct reply to anyone in the thread, this is something I just feel like saaayyying. Nail me to a cross baby.
Sometimes I see comments like 'I don't do that burst bait' or even 'I don't bother with burst baits'
Sometimes I see players who ALWAYS DO THE SAME BURST BAIT and then when it doesn't work they really don't know to/how to continue pressure or make something dirty out of it.
It's an option, you exercise it among other options, preferably from one setup if possible so that it contrasts the other options in some manner or at least adds to the variance of options in order to keep the opponent on their toes.
Of course, bursts that pressure the opponent with multiple safe hits or that you can mix up with something like hit/throw/burst as well help..
To those saying that long burst bait strings are useless due to the 90f safety: free meterless damage that can kill someone who is scared at the end of a combo. Really. Ok, so it won't work every time.. and..? And possible pressure even from a safe 90f burst, just like other gold bursts. Air throw opportunity (everyone will tech it, so, you know. hit them instead, lel), sometimes mix ups (Bella has gold burst setups. Yes they require respect. Earn it? She's good at that ayyy), what does the Painwheel do? And if you have a good assist and movement or your own gimmicky mechanics, you can figure something out. Not every gold burst puts you at a great advantage, but some do, and with the right assist, well, go nuts. It's not knockdown, it's not untechable soft knockdown, but it's something.
And sometimes you can't do that and you just have to try a simple burst bait that really doesn't have a lot going for it. Maybe it's one hit, you have to cancel into something immediately to not get bursted, and you don't give them any incentive to burst. Sometimes these are less obvious in exchange, since bursts that require a cancel into something to whiff to dodge it may look burstable. Or sneaky one hits that look burstable, like Fortune otg cLK.
But it works because you made a good read on them mashing.
Some players just refuse to mash bursts. Don't do those baits on them. Do the funky ones with contrasting options.
I feel a lot of players who refuse to burst aren't necessarily players that like to block either! They just don't want to press buttons during a burst, but will gladly press buttons after the IPS/Undizzy state has cleared, or will attempt alpha countering the burst state, or will mash super as soon as it's not gonna make them burst. People love to press buttons after a successful burst! Did you know even this can get them screwed?
Ohh they can alpha counter!! Not everyone is gonna do it, not everyone is gonna be able to do HLnL > 360, not everyone runs that team, that alpha counter doesn't always work (at all), and not every alpha counter is good. And some are better than you think they are.
The worst thing that can happen is you get hit by a burst and they alpha counter and combo off it and they deserve it for being that on point. It's also a scaled combo, btw. I'm not downplaying this, it's scary. It could happen to you. Like reading a YouTube comment. Don't let that happen. Nobody wants that.
I did some SICK TRICKS on my double/squig/eliza team, was doing corner tag combos between double/eliza. I do Double launcher > HLuger > monster > tag to eliza. eliza hits, they burst immediately. I get bursted away. Boo. They pressed a button. Monster ate them. I got a free combo. Ayyyyyyy u thought. I wonder if this beats HLnL alpha counter..
Also, they don't burst immediately, it's a burst bait with meaty puddle and Eliza ready to kill.
They burst and don't press a button, you're fullscreen with Eliza, which actually isn't bad. She likes being in, but she likes keeping people out too, because she doesn't want them in. I'm also Eliza behind bomber/cHP in that situation. Space control!
The more and more options I tack on, some people go WAHH ITS NOT WORTH IT THEY WON'T BURST WHEN I BURST BAIT AND THEY WILL MASH EVERY OTHER OPTION
This mindset is terrible, stop thinking everything you do will lose just because it CAN lose, please? Yes there are godlike unmashable setups or whatever, go do those, join the club, why are you in the tech thread if you can play the PERFECT GAMEPLANZ now? They might BLOCK, I wouldn't do it tbh. 3 risky 7 me that the opponent could actually play the game.
And look, maybe against some people, it's not smart to attempt things that are mashable.. so don't?
But when I fight some random solo Filia who literally gregors every time I get free 10k combos and when I fight one who is willing to learn and gets scared of the 10k damage because they mashed a gregor (this one is rarer in our SGC for sure..) then I get to do all the nasty. At least until I overdo it and they mash again because I'm not good at keeping an eye on how they're acting or predicting good.
So it's not fullproof..
So.. I'll do it anyways. I'm not gonna just quit doing burst baits because my success rate sucks. It's not like it's 0%. The rewards are godlike when it works.
You get similar rewards from just blocking to bait Updo and whatnot.. I'll admit Squigly's heavy moves aren't fast, but if your burst bait is higher in the air, they're vulnerable completely until they touch the ground. That means more than enough time to punish with whatever you want, really. As for straight up punished, MCHs aren't bad and are always better than LCHs, so medium/special punishes are fine, but the only optimal burst punish with a special squigly has is gonna be HDive, corner Liver Mortis (charged or not), and uh. Uh?
Silver chord scaling, arpeggio scaling, DnB scaling, sing is not a punish on it's own, DP on it's own goes into SBO which scales like crap, charged DP would be ok?, tremolo scaling why, etc
Like, do what you gotta do, not saying don't punish a burst with silver chord if it's the reliable, smart, guaranteed option, having the hit is having the hit, but it's screwing up your capital. So it's the only punish for that burst bait? Do that burst bait, it's fine. Find some more that have other punish options though! What's wrong with that? Anything..? Anybody..?
Does anyone actually get successful burst baits anymore? As far as reversals go, I'm extraordinarily jealous of your 4 frame heavies. The only realistic reversals I can think of that allow heavy punishes are Dynamo, SSJ, Car, BFF, and some tags, depending on your character. Seriously. Bang! is -9. Updo xx Gregor is -14 if you stand block. DP xx SBO is -5. L bomber xx Catellites is +40 or so.
And yeah, you can't HCH everything, that's expected. Doesn't invalidated HCHing what you can (which you made a good list of there!)
For the record, there's a nice timing with cLK delay cLK delay cLK that pokes Peacock, dodges her MBang attempt, then LCH punishes it. I love this character. I mean, that's expecting she MBangs you right away for just doing cLK, but, hue, that move. Fortune can slide under it too. Also, remember you can throw it for free. cLK Liver > Grave between the low profile dodge and the liver kara/invin timing should give you the ability to react with daisy I would think? Liver might just also beat it clean doing that anyways. cLK > Liver is -really good- in my opinion.
HCHing Updo (at least H) is not hard, HCHing updo > gregor (stand block) is not easy with everyone, I agree. Just MCH it and play the game and try to read when to bait the gregor because you wanna reset off this if it's not gonna kill anyways. Also, it's SG, so probably just lean towards bizarro world mindset that they will mash again rather than respecting you from punishing their first mash.
Punish DP > SBO with daisy or counter SBO or alpha counter or something? That sounds pretty in your face risky. Of course, it's Squigly. You grave, she graves, she wins. Fuuun times. I don't see a Squigly wanting to do DP > daisy on block though and they want to autopilot into the right option because they need to cover it quickly from the blocked DP.
Same with LBomber > Catheads, sure, she could car instead if you did grave which would screw her for doing catheads. The risks you take I guess? She'd have to be on point/aware IMO, LBomber is short. I'd really wanna screw Double for trying to catheads to safety for her blocked reversal and I'm willing to spend the meter to attempt it. She's either gonna do it and lose every time or I'm facing a real player that adapts and then they have to change and at least one time I don't have to make the daisy read because they know I'm willing to make it and it's not worth it to them to attempt blocked LBomber into whatever anymore, especially not to yolo it into car in an attempt to hard read my daisy read on their possible LBomber > catheads attempt. Is this.... respeks? Also, depending on your team, DHC wars! Something can probably escape car vs daisy and put you in the lead again.
I'm willing to put some time into Squigly HCHs today and see what is HCHable on whiff (reversals) and what is only MCH/LCHable with normals/specials or what is only punishable with supers. I'll try to look at burst baits too.
I'm also EASILY willing to concede to Squigly simply not having as good of a selection of HCH punish opportunities or conversions from bursts when she can punish stuff from almost anywhere on screen with sing > SBO and her other specials like no one else can and then convert them into full combos. Does
I made a similar concession about her midscreen assist kill abilities (which do exist, but aren't my favorite by far) considering she can do true doublesnaps anywhere that usually push to the corner as well, giving you the incoming mix up. This character is SICK though, right?
This is ALSO a lot of words (I did this to the val thread too) so BYE
I mean, you can get bursts and good counterhits, but it seems kind of impractical to spend a lot of effort on heavy counterhit combos, at least for Squigly. You're not likely to get an optimal conversion off a counterhit j.hp or j.hk as you'll need to scale hard with either SBO or gravedigger. You can do optimal stuff on the ground, but as is, s.hp stancel s.hp isn't commonly practiced and isn't usable at all distances while starting with s.hk is generally not optimal because anything you do airborne is going to have lots of hits to it. What I think is practical for Squigly in particular is medium and light counterhit combos. That's what I practice because you can, for example, whiff punish with c.mk stancel c.mk from a really long ways away. For lights, like gllt said, you can use c.lk to low profile a lot of stuff and with good frame traps you get stray counterhits or just clean hits if they up-back.
If you're just wanting to lab monster to see how much you can push things, which I know gllt is guilty of, that's fine. I just don't want to see people new to squigly and the game see some of that and think it's something that's really useful to practice. You generally just get so much more by comboing till undizzy starts to build up then go back into the reset game.
I have more things to say, I'd just like to post that I fought @DoubleOrNothing for 3 hours, and when I played Beowulf and did muh dead arm time to him, he low profiled it with Squigly cLK
which, I already knew this
except it happened in the corner and it low profiled the -entire super from start to finish- lmao
Yeah, I've done that to folks before. If you really wanna break someone's heart, after getting a low profiled arm, when they go for a High Risk Maneuver to get out of the corner, react with LK+HK SBO.
HK Divekick cant be made safe with charge or anything in the air for that matter....so yeah.
and yeah just switch everything up and slightly delay the j.lk so you don't actually get thrown. in regards to stuff you might have missed I'll direct you over to the tech thread, but since again...so messy, i'll slightly detail this and post this vid since it has to do with combo potential.
I like that grab reset there mid combo. Pretty sick shit man
I don't actually play either of these characters so IDK if these are optimal starters or even any useful but using SBO Squigly can tag to Painwheel off almost any hit I can think of (unless this character gets other hits in strange places), and where she can't, she can always use Silver Chord to do so, but that's probably already well known.
People who actually play these characters can probably actually make something nice of this IDK.
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