Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

[Mike_Z]

ON topic:

No, I don't think you should have to have played VP to understand Indivisible. As render said, that's WHY we're making the prototype. But if you want to understand it before then, which you did, I can save both of us a lot of headaches by saying "look at how VP works and make it ATB-based". Yes, there are many differences, but that's more than good enough as a starting point.

OFF topic:

I can't think of a traditional RPG where skipping all actions (including defending) and letting your opponent go twice is advantageous.

In Wild ARMs, which is completely you/them/you/them turn based, you get the most force points for being hit. So if you want to do a particular force ability, the fastest way to unleash the most of those is to stand there and get hit for a few turns. Defending generates some force, but not nearly as much as being hit. Getting hit 2x, healing, then using your force ability is faster (turns-wise) than defending until you get the same amount of force. And defending still takes damage anyway.

In seriousness, a lot of your questions/assumptions seem to come from a lack of game experience?

 

[Broken Loose]

In Persona 2 and Phantasy Star 4, which are 2 of the best RPGs ever, skipping your turn is incredibly powerful.

A combat round in each game consists of a single attack from everybody on the field, in speed order. However, the games have Fusion Spells, combination attacks that are caused when certain spells are cast in a specific order consecutively, and often times to trigger a Fusion Spell you'll want to manipulate turn order of your dudes by intentionally delaying them until it's their turn to contribute to the Fusion. If an enemy goes between your dudes or the spells are cast out of order, the Fusion fails. The difference between vanilla spells and Fusion Spells are "do 30ish damage to an opponent" and "do 500 damage to all opponents on the field," respectively.


In Megaman Battle Network, which has the best combat of any RPG ever, the ADD function essentially skips a turn and it's one of the strongest things you can do.

A turn ingame is based off a meter on the top of the screen. Once the meter fills, you can queue Battlechips (attack cards) to be used over the course of the next turn. You have a starting hand of 5 and a deck of 30. If you use the ADD function in MMBN1, you upload no chips for a turn in exchange for increasing your hand size by 5 the next turn. In MMBN2 and 3, you discard chips to the ADD using the same restrictions as if you were uploading them normally (only chips of the same name or code can be uploaded together) to increase your hand size by the amount of discarded chips for the rest of the battle.

In lategame, you use the ADD function less, but you instead have alternate means to exchange turns for filtering your deck, like the FullCust chip (which has many purposes, one of which is to turn a bad hand around). This is basic card game stuff, of course, as anybody who has played Magic or Dominion is familiar with cantrips, filtering, and deck thinning. This gets even stronger since the game has its own version of Fusion Spells, Program Advances.

 

[BallotBoxer]

Reading through this thread, I think I now qualify for a college credit in world languages, copyright law, and game design. ☺

It's Prototype Eve! No, not the one that makes your mitochondria burst into flames, but the Indivisible prototype goes to Skullgirls IGG backers tomorrow! Probably some time during the day PST (GMT -7:00)

I wonder how busy this thread will get once the campaign starts. Should Skullheart make a wing for Indivisible or is there going to be a separate forum?

Indivisible doesnt look like the type of RPG to have alternate colors.

Agreed. I expect palette swaps for enemies, not the cast. Like in the starting forest there are blue slimes and brown wolves. Later, in the late-game hell cavern, there are firey-orange magma slimes and yellow giant wolves.

 

[DapperEntity]

I expect palette swaps for enemies, not the cast. Like in the starting forest there are blue slimes and brown wolves. Later, in the late-game hell cavern, there are firey-orange magma slimes and yellow giant wolves.

I can't say I agree with the idea of palette-swaps.

For an example, I'll use Etrian Odyssey 2 Untold, which is a dungeon-crawler. One of its biggest driving points is the sense of accomplishment when you reach a new area and see all the new monsters. So of course, you complete the last dungeon. Woohoo! Game's over! But wait, there's more! You unlock a bonus dungeon, with incredibly varied monster design such as:

• That dinosaur from the second dungeon, but blue!
• Remember that cactus from the second dungeon? It's yellow! How exciting!
• That red-and-white horse from the third dungeon? It's black and blue now!
• So on and so forth.

Granted, all these enemies functioned very differently from their early-game counterparts, so function-wise they were new and exciting. From a "I'm going to explore and look at how incredible the monster designs are!" standpoint, it's disappointing however. I get it, lowered production costs (probably, I don't work in the field), but it still doesn't stop me from being mildly disappointed.


That being said, I'm absolutely ecstatic for the crowdfunding campaign and will be throwing money at it regardless of palette-swapping. If Lab Zero does to RPgGs what they did to fighting games, this could be game of the decade. Or something. Something amazing is what I'm trying to say.

EDIT: And of course I'd completely miss the point of Ballot's post. Sorry. Palette swaps on characters are fine, in my opinion. They're not vital to the game, they're just neat little customization options.

 

[Fizzxwizz]

Indivisible doesnt look like the type of RPG to have alternate colors.

Agreed. I expect palette swaps for enemies, not the cast. Like in the starting forest there are blue slimes and brown wolves. Later, in the late-game hell cavern, there are firey-orange magma slimes and yellow giant wolves.

https://twitter.com/x/status/644371414649143296

Not saying this confirms or denies anything but maybe people should consider learning the lore. Also theres the old pic with the sg colored ajna's but I think that had to do more with ajna not having colors yet and sg palettes being available.

 

[No longer exist]

The only RPG I'm familiar with that has alternate colors for characters is Disgaea.

 

[DapperEntity]

The only RPG I'm familiar with that has alternate colors for characters is Disgaea.

Spoiler: Etrian Odyssey 4 says hello.

 

[mcpeanuts]

@render

Hey quick question, the Indivisible blog says that Skullgirls Indiegogo backers will receive the demo Friday October 2nd, but it doesn't say what time. Do you know what time tomorrow it would be available for Skullgirls Indiegogo backers? Sorry if this was answered somewhere else already. Thank you!

 

[Ravidrath]

@render

Hey quick question, the Indivisible blog says that Skullgirls Indiegogo backers will receive the demo Friday October 2nd, but it doesn't say what time. Do you know what time tomorrow it would be available for Skullgirls Indiegogo backers? Sorry if this was answered somewhere else already. Thank you!

We're not quoting a time because we don't know when it'll be - we're sort of at the mercy of Humble Bundle.

They've said they can have it up on Friday, and that's about it.

Will push for it to be earlier rather than later, but everything they do for us is free and almost feels like they're doing us a favor, so it's hard to really press them.

 

[FakeangeL]

I don't think this was said anywhere else (or at least I'm dumb and couldn't find it) but just for curiosity, is this game coming to xbone?

 

[Kit Ballard]

again the forum didn't tell me there was posts in my "alert" box... missed a whole page again.. Not like it was very interesting.

Yeah, Humble's a great place. No need to pester em too hard now. Interesting that there's going to be "palettes". Excited for tomorrow. I'll try my best to get it recorded.. My primary Pc's still down.. How deep is the Video settings? The Laptop doesn't play Skullgirls very well without turning a lot of stuff down and it's been said the game runs about Skullgirls' level.

 

[Meow-Professor]

again the forum didn't tell me there was posts in my "alert" box... missed a whole page again..

If you don't go to a thread you got an alert for you won't get alerts for new posts until you visit the thread again. This happens to me very often when I'm going through my alerts and I accidentally miss one thread. You probably cleared your alerts without visiting the thread by accident.

 

[Ravidrath]

I don't think this was said anywhere else (or at least I'm dumb and couldn't find it) but just for curiosity, is this game coming to xbone?

PS4 / Xbox One / Windows / Mac / Linux

Don't expect to see it here, but figure I'll address it anyway: no Wii U or Vita.

We thought about making these stretch goals, but we don't know where those systems will be in 2 years, and those systems' technical constraints could be very troublesome for the rest of the project.

We definitely don't want to get into a situation like Oddworld New N' Tasty where they commit to those platforms, and they have to spend more than a year porting to those sytems.

 

[Kit Ballard]

If you don't go to a thread you got an alert for you won't get alerts for new posts until you visit the thread again. This happens to me very often when I'm going through my alerts and I accidentally miss one thread. You probably cleared your alerts without visiting the thread by accident.

Already know about the "No look, no alert" thing, but I generally pop in here anyways when I get an alert o.o

Anyways. Nice that it's going to Next gens along with PC copies. Awesome sauce. Let's get this sucker funded.

 

[Mike_Z]

You unlock a bonus dungeon
[snip]
That dinosaur from the second dungeon, but blue!
Granted, all these enemies functioned very differently from their early-game counterparts, so function-wise they were new and exciting.
[snip]
it still doesn't stop me from being mildly disappointed.

As a player, this sentiment is partially understandable. I don't agree, but I understand it.
As a developer, it is infuriating. You said the word "bonus" yourself! Most devs don't want to spend a huge amount of work on something that many players will never see. They still created and designed a new dungeon, which involved lots of testing and tweaking and gives you an enjoyable experience. It was probably at least 75% of the work of making any other dungeon, maybe more. And you're disappointed they also didn't spend even more money and time on new enemy art? The choice was likely "re-use or we don't do it at all", because it often is.

My primary Pc's still down.. How deep is the Video settings? The Laptop doesn't play Skullgirls very well without turning a lot of stuff down and it's been said the game runs about Skullgirls' level.

Video settings are the same as SG, minus 2D backgrounds.
If you can't run SG well with 3D backgrounds, it won't run Indivisible well.
There are rendering improvements but you do need at least SOME horsepower. We tested on tablets, older laptops, etc, though, and they all ran it okay. And a lower framerate doesn't matter nearly as much for an RPG.

 

[DapperEntity]

As a developer, it is infuriating. You said the word "bonus" yourself! [Snip]
You're disappointed they also didn't spend even more money and time on new enemy art? The choice was likely "re-use or we don't do it at all", because it often is.

That actually explains quite a bit, thanks.
And so, DapperEntity was reminded why he is not a game dev.

 

[Kit Ballard]

Video settings are the same as SG, minus 2D backgrounds.
If you can't run SG well with 3D backgrounds, it won't run Indivisible well.
There are rendering improvements but you do need at least SOME horsepower. We tested on tablets, older laptops, etc, though, and they all ran it okay. And a lower framerate doesn't matter nearly as much for an RPG.

hm. ok. Here's hoping it plays nice with my Bandicam and the laptop. Last time I tested Bandi on here, it didn't go very fast XD I'm sure my Viewers will understand =3

Thank you, as always.

 

[No longer exist]

Spoiler: Etrian Odyssey 4 says hello.

Fucking dammit and I own this game. I'm a fuck head sometimes lol

Don't expect to see it here, but figure I'll address it anyway: no Wii U or Vita.

We thought about making these stretch goals, but we don't know where those systems will be in 2 years, and those systems' technical constraints could be very troublesome for the rest of the project.

We definitely don't want to get into a situation like Oddworld New N' Tasty where they commit to those platforms, and they have to spend more than a year porting to those sytems.

Can't wait for the NX port (*jokes*)

 

[Rakurin]

Super excited for tomorrow! Gotta work a longer shift than usual so coming home knowing its the beginning of Indivisible will help me get through. ^.^

Also quick question; If color palettes end up as a thing, would they be priced about the same as the Skullgirls IGG?

 

[North888]

Snip Battle Network Love Snip

They actually cut this out from future installments after BN 2. The big thing for this was that there were other mechanics added. But the whole idea is still there. You can forcefully shuffle or mill chips. Honestly though the future games actually reward using skills on singular turns over giving up a turn for more chips. The Souls system allows you to take on a temp form for so many turns. But you don't have to EVER end a turn to get more chips. So if you're good enough you can stick to a form without grabbing chips and just destroy ppl.

As a player, this sentiment is partially understandable. I don't agree, but I understand it.
As a developer, it is infuriating. You said the word "bonus" yourself! Most devs don't want to spend a huge amount of work on something that many players will never see. They still created and designed a new dungeon, which involved lots of testing and tweaking and gives you an enjoyable experience. It was probably at least 75% of the work of making any other dungeon, maybe more. And you're disappointed they also didn't spend even more money and time on new enemy art? The choice was likely "re-use or we don't do it at all", because it often is.

I honestly feel that we're a bit spoiled in some cases due to this. A lot of bonus dungeons and post game content nowadays are their own standalone things. But I wonder though, how does this factor into such things like reusing areas and adding new content to them? Like how Disgaea uses retreads of stages with new spawn points and enemy locations, or how Persona 4 lets you go back through the dungeon to fight a new boss (often a large reskin of another enemy anyways) to get a rare weapon. I would assume its more of the same thought. All the work for creating new enemies, events, etc packed into a preexisting place to save time and space.

 

[gllt]

Hey, any chance of letting us adjust/lock the framerate ourselves since lower framerates don't matter so much for an RPG anyways?

My desktop has the horsepower to run SG @ 60fps with 3D backgrounds and extra super shadows, but my silly used notebook from ebay has to run it with 2D backgrounds at hilariously abysmal resolutions. (854x480 still lags on Inferno Brigade and some other stuff, 640x360 is pretty good! Translate these to their 16:10 counterparts if you will. I've ran it at 160x90. Just.. because.)

So, that being said, Indivisible will probably run acceptably at abysmal resolutions on that notebook too, except I'm forced to 3D BGs, so that will have an obvious performance hit, but as you said, framerate isn't as important in an RPG.

THAT being said, while Minecraft is far from my favorite game and I'm not that interested in it at the moment anymore, I still, say, once a year, delve into it for relaxation purposes. The nice thing about Minecraft is that you can set the framerate lock yourself. Now, of course, you can install stuff like OptiFine and whatnot to squeeze out more performance, but I'm not expecting anything like a menu full of options letting me disable random special effects. I'm just wondering if we can have a toggle in the setting menu, IF IT'S POSSIBLE, which is why I'm asking, that would let us swap between, say...

60fps
30fps
25fps

And maybe an option to toggle vsync?

I HAVE to ask because I don't understand the differences between Indivisible and Minecraft or honestly how frameskip comes into play.

I can understand why SG framerates matter because of it being a fighting game, and I get why they don't matter for Indiv and MC because of what types of games they are, but as for how framerate locks and frameskip are implemented and actually work when it comes down to the wire, and whether or not a framerate lock is feasible or even useful, is beyond me. It's definitely useful in MC, I would rather play at a smooth 30fps on my notebook than 60fps and I hardly care because it's MC. But when I choose a lower framerate to lock it at, does that incur frameskip? I assume it DOES because otherwise the game would feel slower, at least from my understanding. So am I actually asking for a... frameskip option?

Whether all this is a 'yes' or a 'no': Thanks for reading my post anyways! Can't wait for the game.

This is really shaping up to be right up my alley. Before SG I was an RPG nerd and that will always be my home, and this game is taking inspiration from a lot of places I REALLY LIKE and a lot of places I'm unfamiliar with but excited to experience within the game. And of course it has combos, so it's taking into account my new hobby (addiction) and slapping it into my old one. You can't beat that. I might actually learn to strategize in an RPG for once instead of watching the AI beat the game for me (FFT, EarthBound, FF12 to an extent), grinding until I can walk through half the game with ease (previous mentions, Pokemon, Quest 64, etc), or just repeatedly banging my head on the wall until RNG is nice to me. (Pokemon but when I was 12.)

I will still dedicate myself to finding exploits though... :^) Because it's fun.

 

[Weatherbee]

I look forward to gllt Indivisible tech and combo videos.

 

[earlfriend]

I'm just wondering if we can have a toggle in the setting menu, IF IT'S POSSIBLE, which is why I'm asking

In the full game, potentially. Not in the prototype.

 

[Ryin]

I can't say I agree with the idea of palette-swaps.

For an example, I'll use Etrian Odyssey 2 Untold, which is a dungeon-crawler. One of its biggest driving points is the sense of accomplishment when you reach a new area and see all the new monsters. So of course, you complete the last dungeon. Woohoo! Game's over! But wait, there's more! You unlock a bonus dungeon, with incredibly varied monster design such as:

• That dinosaur from the second dungeon, but blue!
• Remember that cactus from the second dungeon? It's yellow! How exciting!
• That red-and-white horse from the third dungeon? It's black and blue now!
• So on and so forth.

Granted, all these enemies functioned very differently from their early-game counterparts, so function-wise they were new and exciting. From a "I'm going to explore and look at how incredible the monster designs are!" standpoint, it's disappointing however. I get it, lowered production costs (probably, I don't work in the field), but it still doesn't stop me from being mildly disappointed.

Palette swaps are a fantastic tool to give early enemies with interesting AI patterns a second chance to shine in an environment in which they can afford to be dangerous and actually have those traits come into play better. It also gives you an idea of what the enemy will do based on your previous knowledge of a similar species.
Not to mention the fact real world species also have "palette swaps".

 

[Broken Loose]

They actually cut this out from future installments after BN 2. The big thing for this was that there were other mechanics added. But the whole idea is still there. You can forcefully shuffle or mill chips. Honestly though the future games actually reward using skills on singular turns over giving up a turn for more chips. The Souls system allows you to take on a temp form for so many turns. But you don't have to EVER end a turn to get more chips. So if you're good enough you can stick to a form without grabbing chips and just destroy ppl.

Well, considering that ADD is in BN1, Network Transmission, BN2, and both versions of BN3, that makes half the series (4/8) and therefore enough that I can specify it as a majority feature enough that it was an appropriate example for the current discussion. It's only confusing to go into things like holding onto chips between uploads, chip tagging, Regular Memory, and so on when the discussion was focused on "What RPGs give you a legitimate reason to skip your turn?"

Soul Unisons were a cool proof of concept for the Cross System. I much prefer the Cross System, though, because it was more versatile while also having a larger element of risk (being knocked out of the Cross). Also, fuck Chaos Shadow Soul.

 

[Cheesedragon]

Wait, backer prototype's tomorrow? Fuck past-me for being to poor to donate to one of my favorite games of all time! Damn!

If there's not a get-the-prototype tier for the campaign, i'm done.

 

[North888]

The prototype is free for EVERYONE. SG backers just get it first. Probably a day or so early.

 

[Cheesedragon]

The prototype is free for EVERYONE. SG backers just get it first. Probably a day or so early.

Thank god, i thought we were talking weeks or months early.

 

[KaboomKid]

Not to mention the fact real world species also have "palette swaps".

And adding to that, let's not forget just how totally badass palettes can be handled in the Z-Engine to begin with. If L0 could pull a "Fukua" with Hungry Ghost, AND give it something crazy like the Oil Double palette, I say bring it on! That kind of variety would bring a lot to the game, and still look cool at the same time.

 

[Cellsai]

Thank god, i thought we were talking weeks or months early.

Nah, early prototype for backers on Oct 2 Friday, everyone else Oct 5 Monday - alongside the release of the IGG campaign.

give it something crazy like the Oil Double palette, I say bring it on!

Double rainbow palette for every enemy plz.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

Soul Unisons were a cool proof of concept for the Cross System. I much prefer the Cross System, though, because it was more versatile while also having a larger element of risk (being knocked out of the Cross). Also, fuck Chaos Shadow Soul.

Are we talking about Soul Unisons from 4 and 5 (forget the terminology)?

If so, I actually always felt the opposite. To me, the Soul Unisons had much more dramatic effects and more diverse abilities

ie they didn't just change your charge attack. But they also gave you abilities like shuffling your deck (search Soul), adding status ailments to chip attacks (medi soul), defensive/block maneuvers (Shadow Soul and Proto Soul), changing the playing field (Tomahawk Soul), etc.

I also thought having to actually plan your decks to get the Soul Unisons you wanted situation-ally was a lot more dynamic and fun then just choosing the one you want anytime.

That being said Battle Network 6 was overall a much better game then 4 and 5 (pretty much clusterfucks in comparison with some of the most obnoxious dungeons and backtracking I've ever seen), but Soul Unison is the only thing that kept me going in them.

 

[Wenzel]

Double rainbow palette for every enemy plz.

in b4 stream reactions

Spoiler

 

[Mike_Z]

And maybe an option to toggle vsync?

The engine has
-novsync
even for SG, so yes we have at least that.

I honestly feel that we're a bit spoiled in some cases due to this. A lot of bonus dungeons and post game content nowadays are their own standalone things. But I wonder though, how does this factor into such things like reusing areas and adding new content to them?

Generally it means: if you got a bonus dungeon with new everything, you could instead have gotten another regular dungeon with new everything and a bonus dungeon with re-use.

Also for everyone complaining about re-use, if you have not played Star Ocean 2, that's my shining example of how a re-use bonus dungeon goes, and the ideal I would strive toward. TONS of creativity, and new bosses, but almost everything else is reused in amazing ways. They even bring back a joke item and make it useful. It's amazing.

 

[Dio Brando]

Silly question, but how does one pronounce Ajna?

 

[Tank]

Silly question, but how does one pronounce Ajna?

the indivisible site says ahzh-na. I say it like osh (like in oh my gosh). osh-na.

 

[Not-So-Saint]

Silly question, but how does one pronounce Ajna?

AHZH-nah

 

[Broken Loose]

Are we talking about Soul Unisons from 4 and 5 (forget the terminology)?

If so, I actually always felt the opposite. To me, the Soul Unisons had much more dramatic effects and more diverse abilities

ie they didn't just change your charge attack. But they also gave you abilities like shuffling your deck (search Soul), adding status ailments to chip attacks (medi soul), defensive/block maneuvers (Shadow Soul and Proto Soul), changing the playing field (Tomahawk Soul), etc.

I also thought having to actually plan your decks to get the Soul Unisons you wanted situation-ally was a lot more dynamic and fun then just choosing the one you want anytime.

That being said Battle Network 6 was overall a much better game then 4 and 5 (pretty much clusterfucks in comparison with some of the most obnoxious dungeons and backtracking I've ever seen), but Soul Unison is the only thing that kept me going in them.

(I forgot, they're called DublSoul in the USA versions.) I think only having access to Souls provided by your chips is an artificial limitation much less elegant than an emergent bonus of just synergizing well. Sacrificing a chip to Unite is a cute idea in concept but adds a heap of RNG to the system and also restricts folder construction. You WANT to use Fire Chips with HeatCross/ChargeCross. You HAVE to use Fire Chips with Fire Soul.

For example, imagine if Peacock's teammates were only allowed to use preset assists and not customs. Well, that's fine and dandy (since the presets are pretty good support for Peacock), but it's a lot less elegant than the current solution, where players want to explore the system because they have more freedom with their options.

Additionally, because your opponent can only control your Soul duration by controlling turn timing (which can be undone with SlowCust), the good Souls get that much better. NumberSoul was busted because it had Custom+5 for 3 whole turns! Holy shit! And the earlier problem is even more prevalent since +-Elemental chips can fit into nearly any folder design without fuss due to *-coding and incredible overall utility. The same goes for Search Soul, which had shittier abilities and more folder restrictions than Number Soul, but Shuffling for 3 turns usually results in absolute murder. Meanwhile, Charge Cross and Dust Cross have to be carefully maintained or the bonuses are lost, which means less "3 turns of Program Advances" and more surgical strikes.

I think I'm more biased than anything because I had a huge PvP scene for the games, so all the top tier shit was obvious by the end of the year before the next release. Everybody was using HubStyle. Nobody won playing Red Sun. Every game that changed a single-code Advance to a consecutive-code Advance severely altered the utility of that Advance. Etc.

 

[Dio Brando]

the indivisible site says ahzh-na. I say it like osh (like in oh my gosh). osh-na.

Thanks, i was wondering since as a spanish speaking person, i couldn't quite figure out how the english pronunciation is, since if you try to pronounce it as if you were readinging it in spanish, it would sound like "agh-nah" but i know that can't be right.

 

[Squire Grooktook]

I think I'm more biased than anything because I had a huge PvP scene for the games, so all the top tier shit was obvious by the end of the year before the next release. Everybody was using HubStyle. Nobody won playing Red Sun. Every game that changed a single-code Advance to a consecutive-code Advance severely altered the utility of that Advance. Etc.

Yeah. Keep in mind I'm coming completely from the perspective of a CASUL who only played for the boss fights. From that perspective, I ultimately just prefer how each DublSoul/SoulUnite feels like a completely different character with a greater variety of unique game changers, and how not having them on demand at all times adds an interesting flow and dynamic to the battle (especially the lengthier boss fights like Nebula Grey). I never had much issue with RNG, but like I said, that's mostly coming from boss fights where getting something a turn late wouldn't kill you dead.

 

[dead]

I'm a big fan of seeing assets re used in creative ways, palette swaps really don't bother me as long as it offers something new gameplay wise.