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Mighty No. 9

PaperBag_Sniper said:
Same thing happened over at the Torment: Tides of Numenera kickstarter when they held a vote between two different mechanics for the combat system. A lot of the community thought the game was going to have a system similar to the older Infinity Engine games (Planescape: Torment, Balder's Gate) but ultimately the community voted almost 50/50 but the votes were in favor of a turn based system (Fallout 1/2). After that some people lost their cool and started pulling their funds. It's part of the problem with having your project funded by a community. You give them a sense of entitlement to the project and give them a financial stake in it and they are going to want things they want in the game, even if it goes against the majority of the community or the developers.

But this wasn't even down to a vote though...

This is a decision that the contributors have NO INFLUENCE over whatsoever.
 
Its not like sg was up for a vote on whether it was gonna be a brawler or a fighter... It is fairly obvious what votes should be allowed and what shouldn't.
 
Rellek said:
But this wasn't even down to a vote though...

This is a decision that the contributors have NO INFLUENCE over whatsoever.
I was talking more about people having a preconception of how the final product of a game will turn out, and how one type of person reacts to changes to that image. In Torment's case people walked in expecting a spiritual and mechanical successor to an older game and when they didn't get that they pulled out. Even though the developers were already favoring one system over another once the dust settled people felt betrayed even though most games that get Kickstarted are still in the early stages of development and changes are to be expected.
 
PaperBag_Sniper said:
I was talking more about people having a preconception of how the final product of a game will turn out, and how one type of person reacts to changes to that image. In Torment's case people walked in expecting a spiritual and mechanical successor to an older game and when they didn't get that they pulled out. Even though the developers were already favoring one system over another once the dust settled people felt betrayed even though most games that get Kickstarted are still in the early stages of development and changes are to be expected.

It's not even the system or battle interface or the type of game it's going to be that's the issue in this case. Those things are always up in the air and the developers would have told us if anything changed.

This is the fucking SEX of the MAIN CHARACTER. The entire BASE of the project! His design was the FIRST thing to be established. Though you're right to an extent. They could very well change it at any time. But in this case, there is no "assuming a battle system would be implemented" it's the main character that's factually sitting right in front of their faces.
 
Rellek said:
It's not even the system or battle interface or the type of game it's going to be that's the issue in this case. Those things are always up in the air and the developers would have told us if anything changed.

This is the fucking SEX of the MAIN CHARACTER. The entire BASE of the project! His design was the FIRST thing to be established. Though you're right to an extent. They could very well change it at any time. But in this case, there is no "assuming a battle system would be implemented" it's the main character that's factually sitting right in front of their faces.
Somehow I think that people would get more pissed if they came out and said "we've decided that Mighty No.9 will be a turn based strategy game" than "We've decided to make Beck a girl." Well, I hope so, for my sanity's sake.
And the base of the game is the gender of the main character? What? I mean I'm not exactly a fan of becki either, but if I asked you to sum up Super Mario Bros. in a word would you say "Male" because Mario is a man? The base of the game is jumping and shooting and robots. Not beck's gender. Beck's gender being the base of the game is a little hyperbolic, wouldn't you agree?
But as long as we're back on the root issue, there isn't much to discuss. Dina doesn't have the power to change this shit alone, it's silly to say otherwise, she was qualified for the job even if her connections helped her get hired, she doesn't need to have played every single megaman game, and if you're complaining just because she's a feminist then fuck off. The only complaint that still makes any sense is that she's doing a terrible job moderating this whole event, which is absolutely true, but doesn't really have much room for discussion. Did I cover everything?
The bottom line is that there's a big difference here between this and "making big changes without backer's permission." Because it was never going to happen in the first place. Dina made a comment a long time ago about making beck a girl as an alternative to making call playable, and then she got appointed as community manager, and a bunch of really stupid people thought that having ties to the design team (not even being officially hired as a designer, just contributing in some vague way) meant that she was going to make beck into a girl. There's assuming what the gameplay of a game will be like, and then there's this crap; it takes insane assumptions to even reach the conclusion these guys had.
 
Horseman said:
Somehow I think that people would get more pissed if they came out and said "we've decided that Mighty No.9 will be a turn based strategy game" than "We've decided to make Beck a girl." Well, I hope so, for my sanity's sake.
And the base of the game is the gender of the main character? What? I mean I'm not exactly a fan of becki either, but if I asked you to sum up Super Mario Bros. in a word would you say "Male" because Mario is a man?

Stopped reading right there. Just chill out man.

I meant that Beck's design was there from the very start and, whether you like it or not, the icon of the project. Not the purpose, or the base (as I regretfully stated before) but the SYMBOL of the whole thing. A Megaman-esque dude shooting rocks and having transforming abilities. Simple as that. That's what people saw and they gave money to that. Now to change that to a girl, people are GOING to freak out and there WILL be people who are displeased with a sudden change to one of the core elements that they had paid money to see.
 
Professor Icepick said:
Yeah, but in these cases, it hasn't been the creator advocating for changing the gender, just outsiders who claim that it's sexist to keep the gender for a character male because it reinforces the status quo. If someone wants to make a female character, then that's fine by me. It's when you demand that a character that has been a male from the earliest concept stages become female (or else you're an evil sexist monster) that the problem really starts.
who has been 'demanding' anything? if someone forces a designer to make a change against their will, then yeah, that's generally pretty fucking bad i'll give you that. that's not even remotely what the situation is, though, hahaha
 
I am struggling to feel any sort of emotions on this topic. I will eat my own scrotum if this fiasco affects the game in any way.

I will eat it in one bite.
 
Camail said:
I am struggling to feel any sort of emotions on this topic. I will eat my own scrotum if this fiasco affects the game in any way.

I will eat it in one bite.
....shaved or unshaved? The amount of fur involved will change how funny it is if it happens. (I hope it doesnt though)
 
Kristoph said:
who has been 'demanding' anything? if someone forces a designer to make a change against their will, then yeah, that's generally pretty fucking bad i'll give you that. that's not even remotely what the situation is, though, hahaha

Maybe not this time, but it definitely was during the whole Dragon's Crown fiasco.
 
The thing that bothers me the most about this ongoing discussion on feminism is thus.
I genuinely feel there is no point to this argument.
Feminism is not an entity, with clear goals and wants...at least not really anymore. It's more of an umbrella title at this point, and as such with any thing like this, there is no way of pleasing something that doesn't have a clear goal in mind. Honestly (I'm not gonna name names) some of you just seem to be nitpicking random things that bother you, others have legitimate concerns, but have gotten a little bit lost in purpose. If you're going to continue this whole "feminism vs antifeminism vs meh" mess, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, state very clearly in very small, very simple words your thesis. What it is EXACTLY that you have a problem with what YOU plan to do to solve it, and the things YOU AND OTHERS CAN DO TO HELP. please don't use words and phrases that are completely open to the reader's interpretation, like "objectification", just state clearly: "Women being treated like second class characters/citizens, by...."
'Cus I don't know if you've noticed this, but half of the things you are arguing about end up as "OH, WE WERE SAYING THE SAME THING THE WHOLE TIME".
HERE: I'LL START!
I like Mighty No. 9, and video games in general. But I do feel that in some situations, female/feminine characters are not presented fairly. An example of this is that a lot of female characters are extremely passive, just there along for the ride. I plan to rectify this by creating well developed, well realized female characters in actual games that I plan to make. It is very common for female characters to be captured/kidnapped/impliedraped. I understand the purpose of this trope(well not really that last one), but I also understand that it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, which is why I have devised several non gender-specific "goals" that the player would go for, that still have some kind of relatability and or emotional value.

Also, since the whole anti-dina thing seems to be getting skewed, I'm just going to post my interpretation of how people feel. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just trying to state facts.
People are afraid not of feminism specifically, but of any kind of major force that they feel would affect the game itself, as they are attached to it. I don't think very many people are REALLY upset by the prospect of a female Beck, but specifically of THAT female Beck, because it's design was terrible. A combination of these things has inspired fear in the fans of this game. Fear inspires hatred, hatred breeds more hatred, hatred itself gets exaggerated because of internet anonymity, et cetera.

I personally feel that any mighty numbers here should go onto the forum and start a thread campaign to get information on Call being playable. I would love to play as call, especially if there are actual gameplay differences between Beck and Call. It is already confirmed she gets her own boss and stage, so I'm SURE if you got a lot of support for it it wouldn't take much effort to make her a selectable character for the normal game. If you really want better female characters, quit trying to shoehorn them in and make the ones that are already there better.

I am not a feminist. I am just a guy who likes balance, and I feel people need to become MUCH more aware of causality if we're going to go places. Thank you for your time, I'm sorry if this was complete gibberish.

P.S. Maybe move this discussion to it's own topic? That way you have more than the same 3 opinions, and there won't be as much pressure on you for actually changing your mind about something? It's also a little bit infuriating to look at.
 
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CapnWTF said:
Also, since the whole anti-dina thing seems to be getting skewed, I'm just going to post my interpretation of how people feel. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just trying to state facts.
People are afraid not of feminism specifically, but of any kind of major force that they feel would affect the game itself, as they are attached to it. I don't think very many people are REALLY upset by the prospect of a female Beck, but specifically of THAT female Beck, because it's design was terrible. A combination of these things has inspired fear in the fans of this game. Fear inspires hatred, hatred breeds more hatred, hatred itself gets exaggerated because of internet anonymity, et cetera.

Gonna be honest, from what I've seen, I really don't like Dina's artstyle in general. But I figured I wouldn't mention it, because it might come off as a criticism of Dina herself, who again, I've got nothing against (at present time, anyway). A lot of anti-Dina people are using the fact that she's not really familiar with the MegaMan series as their main rallying point now, but frankly, even I think that's bunk, given: A) though this game is inspired by MegaMan, it's supposed to be its own game and B) Dina fessed up to being unfamiliar with the series at large and is slowly making her way through the games now.

CapnWTF said:
I personally feel that any mighty numbers here should go onto the forum and start a thread campaign to get information on Call being playable. I would love to play as call, especially if there are actual gameplay differences between Beck and Call. It is already confirmed she gets her own boss and stage, so I'm SURE if you got a lot of support for it it wouldn't take much effort to make her a selectable character for the normal game. If you really want better female characters, quit trying to shoehorn them in and make the ones that are already there better.

I'm totally all for a full Call scenario. I'm just glad we managed to reach that stretch goal that gave her her own stage. But judging by the description for that stage, it seems like Call's battle mechanics are significantly different from Beck's, which makes sense given the emphasis on how Beck's transformation abilities appear to be unique to him. Still, I do wish that there had been a stretch goal for a full-on rebalanced scenario using Beck's stages and bosses that would have been remixed to accommodate Call's own unique abilities. That would have been way more interesting to me than either making Beck a girl or Call a reskinned Beck with all of his abilities for some reason.


CapnWTF said:
P.S. Maybe move this discussion to it's own topic? That way you have more than the same 3 opinions, and there won't be as much pressure on you for actually changing your mind about something? It's also a little bit infuriating to look at.

Seconded. Maybe one of the mods could filter out all of the feminist/Dina posts and split that into a new thread.
 
Dang. People really gonna litter up the thread with these prodigious walls of text then dump it on a mod to sort through all this mess to make a new thread for them?
 
ragnorok64 said:
Dang. People really gonna litter up the thread with these prodigious walls of text then dump it on a mod to sort through all this mess to make a new thread for them?
Honestly, at this point, it doesn't really need its own thread because the discussion is mostly over. Unless we actually want to do the thesis statement thing capnWTF suggested (hint: no one does. This isn't an essay, it's not even a formal debate, if you can't tell the person's thesis from their posts that's probably because they don't have one, and they're forming their opinion on the subject as we go, which is totally fine and kind of the point of the argument in the first place.)
I think we're pretty much done here, if something else happens the argument might spark again but until then there's not much more to say.

ragnorok64 said:
Dang. People really gonna litter up the thread with these prodigious walls of text then dump it on a mod to sort through all this mess to make a new thread for them?
It's not exactly litter when it's on topic...
If the Dina stuff had never happened, this thread would be dead until maybe the call vote, so I don't see why it's a big deal.
 
Horseman said:
If the Dina stuff had never happened, this thread would be dead until maybe the call vote, so I don't see why it's a big deal.
Speaking of which, to any other backers today marks the start of the 2nd Call vote.
Comcept has fleshed out the three call designs and added color so here are our three options
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Call E, by freelance artist Hideki Ishikawa


722ed2aa47956888f29ffa71532fe39a_large.jpg

Call F, by Yuuji Natsume of developer Inti Creates

c560c2d6e94baf13918b698222e27d64_large.jpg

Call H, by Comcept's own Shinsuke Komaki

Voting ends on Saturday, December 28th at midnight PST. Voting will be carried out via emails sent to the individual backer's account.

Let's have a good clean fight and may the best Call-E win!!
 
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I like all 3 that's my call....yup
 
Personally, I never cared all that much for Call H. I can see the appeal, but I have never really liked the Astro Boy style.

Seeing Call E in color is great (those white tips <squee>). Even if she doesn't get in, it is nice to see her concept art fleshed out some more for being one of the top three.

Hears to a good vote!
 
Call E kinda reminds me of Tails.
But I'm thinking Call F. Not that I can vote.
 
I don't like Call E that much... I'm feelin' Call F a lot more, the last Call design is kinda meh. I hope Call F wins though.
 
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It's not meant to I know...but H reminds me of legends...and that's cool in my book.
 
Professor Icepick said:
Call H just looks so generic...and Call F is literally Roll. Go go Mighty Call Letter E!
I like that she looks simple. Elegant when compared to the others and def more streamlined. She also doesnt look like she'll be annoyingly cheery or tsundere (normal cheery and normal tsundere is fine) which is one of my major concerns about F, who looks more like Zero than Roll by a long shot. E is just a flight attendant with little feet and cute hair. He looks compliment Beck the least of the three.....plus the other look better =P
 
I'm unable to vote, but I would definitely go with a Call F vote if I could. She feels the most interesting while simultaneously fitting in with the look of Beck. Very easy choice for me.
 
Wow, so Call H turns off if you remove her scarf? That's a pretty serious DRM feature. Maybe you can turn her back on when you remove the dress ifyaknowwhatImean!

Ahem, anyway, I think I'm still deciding on which one I like. Gotta admit that "emotive bow" tweak on Call F is kinda cute, and I also really like how the robotic arms were developed on Call E with the coloring. I wish the team had explored more palette options to vote on though. I was kinda hoping they wouldn't all end up blonde.

Horseman said:
If the Dina stuff had never happened, this thread would be dead until maybe the call vote, so I don't see why it's a big deal.
The discussion was definitely relevant, but it just invites such an overwhelming range of other topics and opinions. I guess we'll see if Dina can hold it together over on those forums.
 
KaboomKid said:
Ahem, anyway, I think I'm still deciding on which one I like. Gotta admit that "emotive bow" tweak on Call F is kinda cute, and I also really like how the robotic arms were developed on Call E with the coloring. I wish the team had explored more palette options to vote on though. I was kinda hoping they wouldn't all end up blonde.

I'm with you on that. It's to the point where I might have even voted for Call H if she had been the only one who wasn't blonde.
 
I'm fine with it. That just means she won't win *COUGH ANNIE DIDN'T WIN COUGH*
 
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CapnWTF said:
I'm fine with it. That just means she won't win *COUGH ANNIE DIDN'T WIN COUGH*
Annie might not have won in your polls, but she won morally. Because she's the only character who didn't CHEAT to get their place in the polls.
 
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Horseman said:
Because she's the only character who didn't CHEAT to get their place in the polls.
What is that heretic tongue of yours insinuating? Hush now, lest your filthy thoughts be cleansed by the righteous fires of Purgatorio.


PAGAN!! (╬ಠ益ಠ)
 
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I can't vote (stupid parents controlling my summer job money...) but I like F by a LONG shot. E looks like a flight attendant and while ok can't compete with the H cuteness. H looks boring. F is cute.
 
scrubbyscum999 said:
I can't vote (stupid parents controlling my summer job money...) but I like F by a LONG shot. E looks like a flight attendant and while ok can't compete with the H cuteness. H looks boring. F is cute.
First world problems.
 
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