Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?

[mcpeanuts]

I really oppose this patch! Plz See this!

You guys must know 'This Balance patch should go with the SUPER ART balance patch'

Lots of super arts should be fixed
such as Peacock's Laser and Cerebella's Showstopper and etc...!

You guys have to Block the Peacock's laser & Filia's Cockroach Samson which are used more than 1 time in a combos, Downgrade the damage of cerebella's showstopper and etc...!

If you guys ignore this Warning, Skullgirls will be disrupted because of the terrible power Balance...

There are no enough time to fix all of these things.
Plz Just remain this game as skullgirls, not SSF4!!!

What?

 

[destruction_adv]

I feel this needs to be said, to the people who keep chiming on about how they enjoy long combos I have a suggestion to make.

There you go enjoy, there will be nobody for you to bore except the CPU who fortunately, much like you does not understand or feel boredom in your single player BlazblueMarvel3FinalFantasyTurnBased game that you obviously yearn for. Those of us who actually want to play a game with some pacing will continue to hope this game improves for the better, lel.

Or you know, you could go play Street Fighter. Seriously, it's like, people who like the game as it is are "whining" but people who complain about how it is and want it changed are "trying to move the game to their ideal state". If one is whining, the other is too.

 

[Number 13]

No one is really saying this Beta build is the magic cure to save the player base by attracting/keeping new players. That is a pretty unrealistic claim since this Indie IP is so young in a niche video game genre. At best it's a band-aide to cater toward a demographic of the existing players with the possibility to leave a better first impression to any newcomers compared to the MDE build.

The good players will still remain being good and the bad players will still remain being....not so great. The beta build isn't suddenly going to narrow the player skill-gap for this game any time soon, people generally aren't that naive to think that. Only difference now with the beta build based on recent footage/hours of personal play is that the bad players have at the very least the illusion that the matches are much more back-and-forth now like how a two-player fighting game generally should.

Believe it or not most bad players don't get mad simply because the match resulted in their loss. I know plenty of players from various fighting games that had a fun time despite losing the match in the end. They generally get mad because of how they lost.

Multiple sequence of long combos (AKA temporary 1 player mode) takes time away from the receiving player gameplay experience versus where reset/neutral situations they would feel they are actually participating in the game. Long combos actually still exist in this build, but now they became lot less optimized now which should notable decrease their appearances in gameplay in theory and likely in practice.

I'm not preaching the beta build is perfect by any means for reasons I already described in an earlier post . Hell my version for the ideal build of Skullgirls could be anything but perfect to some players just like how their ideal Skullgirls would get their fair share of critics as well.

What I am ranting about is the beta build in my honest opinion (I'm not gonna arrogantly claim my views are "fact" like some people tend to do whenever they argue) from a player who played MDE, SDE, and even the radical vanilla build on the consoles is that the beta build is taking a few steps closer compared to the current PC MDE build to be a more enjoyable fighting game for both the attacking and receiving player.

Mike go with your gut when you decide since your a qualified fighting game developer, but since you are asking for community feedback consider the arguments from both sides of the fence as you decide regardless of final poll results.

 

[VIVIT_rv00]

I went with option 2. In retrospect this might not have been the best idea, since I'm actually thinking entirely different things about the game... but whatever.

Here's my stance. Skullgirls needs the average combo to be shorter and less damaging than it currently is in MDE. That's my sincere belief, and as far as this goes the current beta patch is a great step forward. It gives the defending player more chances compared to the two-touch kills running rampant in MDE.

But the problems of the game run a little deeper than that, and Undizzy is an opaque, tacked-on system that renders you unable to exactly gauge how far you can go after the reset. Now, there's two ways to tackle this issue - one, audio and/or visual cues that give you a rough estimate of how much Undizzy your enemy has left once you tag him again. Steps of 40 or 50 should be good enough for that.

Or, two, you axe Undizzy in its current form and try to cover what it covered through existing, perhaps also new systems. In short, you somehow find a way to limit or weaken conversion opportunities. Since, in Skullgirls, so many starters lead into full combos that the tools that don't become severely devalued, and because everything kind of leads to the same combo it also does roughly the same damage. There's no real reward for punishing blocked UmeUpdos, there's no real difference between high/low/crossup/noncrossup (throws are the exception to this right now and look at how many people are outraged by this...) You can - and should - read IsaVulpes' threads, he's written far more and far more eloquently about this topic.

--

So, whatcha gonna do? I'm not the most qualified person, but let me please say what I'd want. Warning, crazy idea ahead, consisting of three concepts aimed at creating a more interesting spread of combo damage.

One, a redone damage scaling system. Let's say the scaling goes roughly like this:

1st hit 130%
2nd hit 100%
3rd hit 75%
4th hit 55%
5th hit 45%
6th hit 35%
7th hit 30%
8th hit 25%
9+th hit 20%

With throw, assist, DHC scalings and such all kept at their current levels. Suddenly, the starter matters much more. In certain cases (Filia IAD j.HP cough cough), this could be abusive, but you could fix these cases individually. (j.HP hitting twice for the same damage in total, anyone? With basically no blockstop on the first hit?)

Second: In conjunction with that, adjust Undizzy to reduce combo length even more compared to the current beta build, so that you'd have a damage variance of 3.5~4k meterless off bad starters, like Throw, Assist or multi-hitting things to 5.5~6k for optimal starters, like a s.HP punish or whatever. However, Undizzy would instantly decay to 0 - it'd be no longer needed to enforce damage variance. You want to do more damage? Reset into something beefy!

Third: Buff the damage supers do by maybe 20% or so, to ensure you still can pack a punch if you spend the bar.

---

That's been it, thank you for reading.
Tl;dr: If you complain about your combo getting worse through the changes: That's the entire damn point of the beta. Your call to be angry or pleased at that, but let me give you two pieces of useful information: One. If Mike Z is being lenient this time around, I foresee this same discussion about combo damage about four months from now, like it already happened twice. Two. Most games mainly remembered for their combo game are kusoges like Hokuto no Ken. CVS2 had ridiculous A-Groove custom combos, KOF13 has HD mode bullshit - but that's not really the core gameplay of either game. An important element, sure, but not the central one like it's sorta become in Skullgirls. Or has been in Hokuto no Ken.

...

As Number 13 above stated, this is my ideal Skullgirls, or at least a lot closer. It doesn't have to be yours, and I (try to) respect that (since I really like figuring out beefy combos, as well...) - but please give it and my mindset, my reasoning a consideration. And please please tell me should I be really wrong.

 

[DDB]

Buff the super damage? Thanks hitstop.

 

[destruction_adv]

Tl;dr: If you whine about your combo getting worse through the changes: That's the entire damn point. If Mike Z is being lenient this time around, guess what's happening four months from now? People complaining about combos being too good. Again. COMBOS ARE NOT THE GAME.

As Number 13 above stated, this is my ideal Skullgirls, or at least a lot closer. It doesn't have to be yours, and I respect that (since I really like figuring out beefy combos, as well...) - but please give it and my mindset, my reasoning a consideration. And please please tell me should I be really wrong.

Doesn't sound like you respect other people's ideal skullgirls when you define someone else's ideal view (one with long combos) as "whining" earlier in the post.

 

[Spencer]

I'd say #1 and see how high the damage gets after people have had time to optimize the combos.

I do strongly disagree with the "let it settle" mentality. This could be because I am first and foremost a PC gamer. I am used to weekly or monthly patches, and I prefer them.

LoL goes through a major upset (and I mean gameplay changing major) at least once a year at Season end (about to go through another).

Dota 2 has huge, sweeping changes on occasion as well.

SC2 is hardly the game it was at launch for better or worse.

So on.

It didn't take the community long to max out combos in any of the various editions... and if 10k+ combos aren't what is desired by the devs or the community, why wait a year to fix that?

The only thing I would be cautious about would be releasing new builds too close to major tournaments ie EVO.

 

[ninja-nutria]

I voted no. The majority because I don't want to lose some of the best players of this game because of the changes. I want them to still have fun and enjoy the game and play with me. The game is not even two years old and we have yet to have a build that's been a year old. Changes got to stop sometime.

ooh good players will stay and bad players will keep losing so dont worry.

 

[No longer exist]

ooh good players will stay and bad players will keep losing so dont worry.

He's right on this point.

 

[VIVIT_rv00]

Doesn't sound like you respect other people's ideal skullgirls when you define someone else's ideal view (one with long combos) as "whining" earlier in the post.

...and you're right that I kind of don't, considering their worth as a competitive game, but I certainly could have rolled a better number on my diplomacy check. Beginning damage control...

 

[ninja-nutria]

This doesn't count. I'm talking solo combo, no assists. I don't play Filia.

he is also using a reset and two meters.

 

[ninja-nutria]

Very slightly more damage, but more work. Plus the way I end my bnb I can go for an easy crossunder or air grab reset. I don't see a reason for tear toss anymore when its so much more limited now. My bnb does 6.1 - 6.3 depending on the character and or corner.

that one is better, i think everyone is making 6k solo.

 

[dekillsage]

Wow look at all these votes for yes. Thanks Kokonoe!!!!

 

[ninja-nutria]

=).

 

[Icky]

snip

Or maybe people that want shorter combos should play something else. I don't go playing SFIV then say "DUR HUR, COMBOS TO SHORT, CHANGE PLEASE."

 

[KhaosMuffins]

Arguing that people who like longer combos should go play a rhythm game or something like DMC makes about as much sense as saying that people who like shorter combos should go play Street Fighter or Aquapazza (the point being that it doesn't make sense). Stop looking at the situation as "I like this and everyone else should like it" and more on "What will make people who actually play the game happy?"

 

[Number 13]

Are we really coming back to the flawed "If I wanted to play a game like X I would just rather just play X instead" argument? -_-

 

[scrubbyscum999]

As a complete beginner, I would prefer the version we already had. Good players WILL leave because they are good and can easily find other games if they don't like these new changes. I met a lot of interesting people like dekillsage and would rather not only they leave but also have me stuck with a version not as cool as the one we have now. I am PRACTICING my ass off, I would prefer I am practicing for what is already pretty much my dream fighting game story AND gameplay wise. If the game is already fun and you can get good at it as well as being far, why make such drastic changes? Now I am going to wait for the rage for everyone to tell me I am dork and I am totally wrong.

 

[RemiKz]

I think a few things need to be addressed first before we finalize anything.

Does Filia still need the hairball limit? Does she still need the damage nerfs she received? Does fortune's head still need to do 45 stun? Could a few characters stand for a few damage buffs? Does meter scaling need to be addressed?

 

[Number 13]

As a complete better, I would prefer the version we already had. Good players WILL leave because they are good and can easily find other games if they don't like these new changes.

What kind of flawed argument is that? This implies you must have been elected by every top SG player to represent them and speak on their behalf since you know each of their stance on this topic so well.

"Hi.

Obviously I'm not a fan of this version, but as always, I'll optimize and figure out stuff.
If anything, I'd like meter scaling to be looked at now that the option to do long combos isn't even there." - Severin

From the IPS thread.
Source

Your exaggerating quite a bit. Stop.

 

[scrubbyscum999]

What kind of flawed argument is that? This implies you must have been elected by every top SG player to represent them and speak on their behalf since you know each of their stance on this topic so well.

From the IPS thread.
Source

Your exaggerating quite a bit. Stop.

Doesn't have to be ever player, just a good chunk. Obviously SOME are going to stay, I never said all of them will leave. But do you really want to lose people who are good at this game when the community is already pretty small?

 

[Mwisk]

With the changes to stage 5 undizzy, this build seems much more solid than before. I think it's a good thing to take this one for further testings if approved. Combos feels right and rewarding in their different levels, some mid-screens got way weaker than others, but that would be addressed with minor fixed in some characters behaviors.

 

[POS Industries]

Doesn't have to be ever player, just a good chunk. Obviously SOME are going to stay, I never said all of them will leave. But do you really want to lose people who are good at this game when the community is already pretty small?

I will be very surprised if long ass combos are the main draw of this game to a sizable portion of the playerbase at any skill level.

 

[Zidiane]

Wow, it's looking like a pretty even split (not counting wait for big band and don't care).

I'm in the "Don't Care" pot. Actually... anything but "Extra" undizzy I would be fine with, I think.

 

[Number 13]

Doesn't have to be ever player, just a good chunk. Obviously SOME are going to stay, I never said all of them will leave. But do you really want to lose people who are good at this game when the community is already pretty small?

People left the community after the Vanilla build/SDE/MDE build dropped for X, Y, and Z reasons that personally don't agree with them. That is an unavoidable fate for quite frankly any community. New people also joined the community as time passed on after each subsequent build especially the MDE build when Skullgirls expanded into the PC market and more characters finally are steadily being added.

Just like you are assuming some players because of this build will leave I can equally assume new players will join as a result and maybe a few of them will actually stick with the game and become good down the line. In the end these are all just baseless assumptions that won't get us anywhere.

I'm saying this because you are exaggerating about a big spike of decreased good players when realistically I believe it's anything but that since this game is still being heavily developed as we speak with a young and dedicated community (Proved this multiple times) with potential depending on how things fold out in the future.

 

[DARKNESSxEAGLE]

The reasons I see for and against long combos at the moment are:
For:

• More risk on the table (for the defender), makes players want to actually be careful and not make them think they can make a safe mistake or 2 (i.e. hlvn's airbag/knife analogy)
  
• Some people enjoy pulling them off
• Some of them look cool

Against:

• Boring to be stuck in the same combo repeatedly
• Usually only 1 or 2 opportunities to save your skin
• Less time spent with both players actually doing stuff
• Slower paced matches due to length of combos and damage scaling

The reasons I see for and against shorter combos are:
For:

• More resets to do damage means more time spent with both players actually doing stuff (thinking, attacking, defending)
  
• Some people enjoy pulling off and defending against resets
• Faster paced matches from increased damage output from both sides
• Not as boring as repeatedly seeing long combos to see short combos repeatedly
• With Undizzy being low-capped and invisible there are more choices to make that, at worst (For the attacker), take the game back to neutral (this can be explained in a later post if anyone can't see why)

Against:

• Less risk on the table (for the defender)
• Some people prefer pulling off long combos
• Undizzy isn't the most popular stud around

If I've missed anything, or you disagree with points I've listed (I'd prefer discussion, not "oh ur a faget only losers don't enjoy being stuck in the same long combo over and over"), do call me out on them, everyone's opinion can be valid and that's what you're expected to use for your vote in the poll.

 

[dekillsage]

Games gonna die if you don't get it on console. Preparing my body to wait a few more months #Xbox

It would be nice if these changes would fix the lobbies too

 

[destruction_adv]

The reasons I see for and against long combos at the moment are:
For:

• More risk on the table (for the defender), makes players want to actually be careful and not make them think they can make a safe mistake or 2 (i.e. hlvn's airbag/knife analogy)
  
• Some people enjoy pulling them off
• Some of them look cool

Against:

• Boring to be stuck in the same combo repeatedly
• Usually only 1 or 2 opportunities to save your skin
• Less time spent with both players actually doing stuff
• Slower paced matches due to length of combos and damage scaling

The reasons I see for and against shorter combos are:
For:

• More resets to do damage means more time spent with both players actually doing stuff (thinking, attacking, defending)
  
• Some people enjoy pulling off and defending against resets
• Faster paced matches from increased damage output from both sides
• Not as boring as repeatedly seeing long combos to see short combos repeatedly
• With Undizzy being low-capped and invisible there are more choices to make that, at worst (For the attacker), take the game back to neutral (this can be explained in a later post if anyone can't see why)

Against:

• Less risk on the table (for the defender)
• Some people prefer pulling off long combos
• Undizzy isn't the most popular stud around

If I've missed anything, or you disagree with points I've listed (I'd prefer discussion, not "oh ur a faget only losers don't enjoy being stuck in the same long combo over and over"), do call me out on them, everyone's opinion can be valid and that's what you're expected to use for your vote in the poll.

I do disagree with some of the stuff here. For 1 higher damage is not a product of shorter combos, it's a product of more resets and well, people can do more resets with long combos anyway. All the change does is remove the safer option of longer combos. The other thing I disagree with is short combos not being boring, if anything they're more boring cause you have to do them several more times to kill someone.

 

[ninja-nutria]

you all just need to read the steam forums to understand why people wont play the game.

 

[dekillsage]

you all just need to read the steam forums to understand why people wont play the game.

amazing

 

[POS Industries]

All the change does is remove the safer option of longer combos.

Good. The game needs more opportunities for risk in a match.

The other thing I disagree with is short combos not being boring, if anything they're more boring cause you have to do them several more times to kill someone.

The longer combos are more boring for the defender and anyone watching.

 

[Lunerstep]

I honestly don't care one bit if it's implemented at all my only interest so far is in fact the characters, so I really don't care for shorter or longer combos albeit I do kinda hate the longer ones I suppose, but still I'm in the doesn't matter to me group.

 

[destruction_adv]

you all just need to read the steam forums to understand why people wont play the game.

Bcause of infinites that don't exist and because resets are strong basically. Oh, and because the game isn't like KoF or street fighter.

@POSindustries The 2nd part is definitely opinion based, but I do get what you're saying. However, I don't agree in removing long combos from the game because I'm not a fan of removing options in general.

 

[Darklightjg1]

"What will make people who actually play the game happy?" Hmm...

What will make people who actually play the game unhappy enough to actually drop it? Would the game becoming mediocre for the sake of "fairness" or "more neutral" (people's misconception of it anyway) be enough to force someone to drop it? I don't think so. Established fans always seem to accept it as long as they're eased into it (but I don't think they'll leave if the game stays the same either). 'Hardly see system changes going in the other direction for fighting games anymore.

How do you ease people into mediocrity? You do it through small steps a time, so they barely notice until it's too late. But hey, they're still playing right? Why quit now?
This lowered undizzy plus accumulating as early as Stage 3 shit is a HUGE jump from "don't start a chain with the same normal". It's not even IPS anymore (THAT was achieved a while ago), it just a combo prevention system for people who act like they're being hit by some inescapable Ivan Ooze shit when that's hardly the case. Gs, I guess yall are getting what you wanted.

 

[Number 13]

Bcause of infinites that don't exist and because resets are strong basically. Oh, and because the game isn't like KoF or street fighter.

Why did you use KoF of all games as an example?

 

[No longer exist]

There's been a spike of good players? Its been the same 5 people for 2 years

#Cubba

But seriously, at this rate, I don't even think this community knows what it wants. I never had a problem with the original MDE build and I feel combos aren't the main reason people aren't playing

 

[Zidiane]

Stop looking at the situation as "I like this and everyone else should like it" and more on "What will make people who actually play the game happy?"

There will never be anything that keeps everyone happy, though. Make something that is good, and people who like it will play. If you don't like it, then play something else. This holds true for everything. If you don't like movies with Will Smith, don't watch Independence Day.

Not to say that Independence Day can't have fixable problems, just that the problem of "I don't like Will Smith" can't be fixed. Cause even if you give his part to Jack Nicholson, there'll be people who don't like Jack Nicholson.

 

[destruction_adv]

Why did you use KoF of all games as an example?

Because it's mentioned several times on the steam forums, probably because it's also on steam.

 

[Number 13]

Because it's mentioned several times on the steam forums, probably because it's also on steam.

Oh that was your reasoning. You mentioned how Skullgirls isn't anything like KoF when in actuality the combo length can rival Skullgirls especially once anchor character mid-screen carry/corner HD mode combos happen.

 

[POS Industries]

The 2nd part is definitely opinion based, but I do get what you're saying.

Well yeah, this is all almost entirely people arguing about how their opinions are better than everyone else's opinions, so I'll totally cop to the fact that there are lots of people who really get off on watching forever and a day combos. Mahvel wouldn't have such good stream viewership if there weren't. But in my purely anecdotal experience, a lot of the people who aren't as intimately familiar with the game as you or I that watch SG matches have voiced concern about finding the longer combos less exciting. But your mileage may vary and I'm sure lots of other people have had opposite experiences.

However, I don't agree in removing long combos from the game because I'm not a fan of removing options in general.

As a Peacock player, I can tell you that we're far past the point of no return on removing options.