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Poll: Are the Beta changes ready for prime-time?

Should the Beta IPS/undizzy/counterhit changes be implemented into the Real Game?

  • Yes! RIGHT NOW.

    Votes: 112 34.6%

  • Yes, but wait and put them in with Big Band.

    Votes: 54 16.7%

  • No. I don't like them / they need further work.

    Votes: 116 35.8%

  • I don't care. I will continue playing/avoiding the game the same amount either way.

    Votes: 42 13.0%
  • Total voters
    324
  • Poll closed .
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yeah I know I'm just sensing possible developing hostility or irritation on people not accepting others perspectives....
 
Lunerstep said:
yeah I know I'm just sensing possible developing hostility or irritation on people not accepting others perspectives....
FUCK YOU WE'RE PERFECTLY CALM AND REASONABLE ABOUT OUR STUPID ASS DIFFERENCES OF OPINION
 
Lunerstep said:
...oi this stuff is never gonna end is it...?
Well, y' know, it's a pretty big change, people who are strongly for or strongly against it are going to have to be as vocal as they can be about it if they want things to go their way, that said it was the same with the waifu wars and then none of the extremely vocal parties won those (convenient that DDB posted above as a prime example).
 
Duckator said:
I voted no, not because I like long combos but because undizzy is the worst piece of shit that has ever happened to this game.
I have no problem with Undizzy but I feel it starting in level 3 is too early. Leave it to 240 and put it in stage 5.
 
@DARKNESSxEAGLE it's all pretty much preference. Which is fine. You're arguing toward for your preferences just as I am for mine (just as most people are arguing toward what they prefer).

As far as your last question. Well meter is probably the biggest reason for someone to opt out of the full combo and reset more frequently instead as there's a system in place for the person getting hit to gain more meter as a combo gets longer and for the attacker to gain less. Meter is essential for maintaining an advantage or mounting a comeback, so there should be consideration about that whenever you combo.
Also the time left in a match can factor into it as well (although a more extreme case). If your 5-10 second combo isn't going to = victory with 5-10 seconds left then you may have to reset.
It's a good option to combo for that much damage, but that doesn't mean there's not good enough reason to deviate to a reset-heavier style if you prefer it. I've definitely regretted and made people regret giving too much meter through combos.

Also with assists: I think most people are okay with it scaling now to make that particular thing less potent (Idc either way... I don't call assists that much, but punish whenever I can), but there was already the risk factor of losing the entire assist with relative ease via double-snap. People will probably have to take their assist calling into consideration more with the change.
 
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Oh.
 
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The issue is that, despite what some of you might say, there aren't two options to the game right now. Long combos vs. quick resets is heavily weighted toward long combos right now because the long combos are really long and really damaging.

If I attempt a reset based off a bad read (I respect an opponent who is actually mashing), then I can easily lose 10k+ off of that coin flip. If the opponent has significant meter, it could be an entire life bar. If my team is larger than the opponent's team, this difference is exaggerated due to the damage boost. 3v1, any drop, not instinctively holding forward when Val does j.HP from 2 character widths in front of me, not guessing right on Painwheel j.HK, spacing mistake vs. Double j.HP, etc, leads to a dead character + corner + incoming mixup.

Additionally, long combos of any kind fuck up the reset game because patience is a limited resource. In MvC2, undizzy kicked in quickly and unpredictably enough that doing a ROM for more than 3 or 4 reps was risky as fuck. It was a holding pattern until you decided how you wanted to reset, and for every moment you kept the opponent in the holding pattern you gave them way more meter to paste you later. This was somewhat balanced out by what I've stated before about waiting for a 10-frame reset over a 10-second period being way more advantageous to the attacker than waiting for a 10-frame reset over a 4-second period. The average combo was ABlaunchABCsuper, and a good confirm into reset was around the same number of hits.

Obviously, 2 chains is not what I want from this game. I do around 5 or 6 depending on the character I'm using, but MDE is kind of unacceptable when you get to the extreme points of Car Install/Stancel/Valentine Zero combos. I remember why airball cancel was removed: "Because having a corner carry AND damage was too much," but airball cancel still lives on in the other characters.

Lots of changes keep getting put into the game with the mindset of being lenient to the players, but underestimating what the players will do. Fighting games are reverse game design; a bunch of assholes trying to deconstruct an engine developed by another asshole. You will still have your combos. They will just not be the only viable option, anymore. I think 50% damage max (given 1 meter) is a good start on the way toward a good game.
 
Broken Loose said:
Fighting games are reverse game design; a bunch of assholes trying to deconstruct an engine developed by another asshole.

I don't really agree with some of the other things you said, but this needs to be put on a shirt.
 
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I don't see what the big deal is. Chris G showed you can win in the current IPS without long combos. If more people saw that, and saw how our "pros" could not beat his neutral game, then maybe less people would want the change. Its been proven in the current system long combos is not the only way to win. More people who quit because the combos are too hard or too long need to see that.

I also feel that people who said yes and did not bring up an argument with it, think this will make console port come out quicker.
 
Calypsx said:
You shouldn't generalize others because they don't feel the need to argue over an opinion. It's actually possible that some of us have played and seen the beta, and enjoy what it has to offer far more. There doesn't have to be an argument for everything.

People should just vote for what they have the most fun with and for what they feel is best for the game.
An opinion without a valid argument to back it up is not very valid at all. I could say chicken is better than beef, but if I don't tell you why, then how will you know why I feel this way? Just saying yes is also not having an opinion, its just answer the question without thinking.
 
Calypsx said:
Except it's pointless to argue over opinions that for the most case, not everyone is going to agree with. Like this entire topic has shown. This is a poll, people are going to vote for what they enjoy the most.

So for everyone who voted yes, would saying "I find it more fun." be valid enough for you?
If they can argue that. 9/10 is people who cannot learn long combos and think its too hard. Thats the problem alone. Don't believe me? Check the steam forums. People complaining the game is too hard.

Its not yes because "its fun", its yes because "its too hard". You have to see the big picture, check around other sources and see what people are complaining about more.
 
Calypsx said:
Vulpes has went over this multiple times...

THE COMBO'S IN THIS GAME ARE NOT HARD. They were made intentionally easy and smooth to do. No one is complaining that the long combo's are hard to learn.

The combo's being hard, and the combo's being too long are entirely different arguments. This is potentially the easiest game to do combo's in that I've ever played.
See you aren't looking at the big picture. You are taking what 1 person says as truth. Why not see what others are saying about it hmm? No instead you're going to defend nothing.

People find long combos "too hard". Thats what you need to realize. Instead you're going to keep defending it regardless. I like MDE as is, and I don't think it needs to be changed. Its already been proven you don't need long combos to win in MDE, thus the argument is invalid.

Another thing is people trying to play on keyboards can't do long combos. Or people who cannot remember what button each punch is as the game says press this button.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/245170/discussions/0/648811852175280156/
http://steamcommunity.com/app/245170/discussions/0/648811768076804022/
http://steamcommunity.com/app/245170/discussions/0/648811852199091715/
http://steamcommunity.com/app/245170/discussions/0/648811852229704191/

These are the types of people who think the game needs shorter combos. Some of these geniuses can't even navigate the menu. If your argument is "its fun", thats fine, but for others its most likely not the case. Personally speaking I already have half ass decent bnb on beta IPS, but that doesn't change my opinion that MDE is fine as is.
 
Calypsx said:
The combos in this game are not hard to do. They were made intentionally easy and smooth. No one is complaining that the long combo's are hard to learn.

Some people are complaining that they're hard to learn. Really. I myself have crappy execution so any combo is hard to learn, but I'm actually a bit of a fan of the long combos I can't do. The point where you mention "every other fighter" being harder is for one flawed cause I doubt you've experienced every game in the genre, but generally it's correct if we look at some of the more popular cases (though I myself found execution in Blazblue easier, but it might have just been Bang). The real problem is that SG is many players first fighting game, so they don't know how hard it is in other games, so of course there will be some that think the execution is really hard.
 
Calypsx said:
Do you really think everyone that plays the game posts on the steam forums? Please.

This is pointless, I can't believe anyone thinks the combo's in this game are harder than other games, most people on the steam forums don't even play other fighting games. Every other fighter is by far harder to link/combo in. You just happened to find a very small minority of new fighting game genre players.

I don't need to defend anything. I find the beta more fun than the current game. Why Because I find it more fun. It's that simple. I like the flow of the battles far more.
Exactly my point but the problem is people do and thats where it hurts. This game is brain dead for me, I just get in and do combos. I don't feel a huge challenge online at all. At least when I play street fighter I have to think about my move so I don't get randomed out by some scrub, or lamed out by someone. Stop thinking about yourself and consider what others think about it and why they think so.

I like this game for what it already is, and that is my argument. Its no different than you thinking the new IPS will make it more fun. My argument still stands that people say they cannot do the combos because long combos are too hard. Hard does not always mean input, it also means remembering all inputs as the are supposed to be pressed.
 
The poll was posted on the steam forums more or less so expect steam users to have found their way here. Should their vote be discarded? No and it won't be, but what I'm getting at is a larger sum of people who said yes are crying its too hard. Not everyone thinks the long combos are easy. I for one think the combos are easy in both IPS, and I have combos in both. My thing is I played this game because I could get into it and it felt right. I like it because the combos are long. I like it because the art is hand drawn and unique.

Also regardless of the vote, even if no was the winner, mike is most likely to change it anyway. Its going to be his way regardless. It is after all his game.
 
heroxoot said:
People find long combos "too hard". Thats what you need to realize. Instead you're going to keep defending it regardless. I like MDE as is, and I don't think it needs to be changed. Its already been proven you don't need long combos to win in MDE, thus the argument is invalid.
Yes clearly people who support this change find it hard to spend a couple of hours in training mode to squeeze out an extra 2k damage, even more so when they can just copy combos from the internet that other people have made for them. The reason I don't use long combos is because I've never decided to sit in training mode or look on the internet to focus solely on combos, I got a simple BnB with reset potential and learned everything else by actually playing against people. And then you back up your point with Steam forum links? The same place that there are commonly topics complaining about infinites in a game with IPS?

By 'the big picture' are you referring to newcomers who haven't even played through the tutorials and don't know how to cancel a normal into a special, not knowing how to block or not even knowing how to navigate the menu? If so, then sure, they find long combos hard but I'm pretty sure a few of them will struggle even with 2 hit combos, so they are hardly good example when we're talking about reducing 20 second combos to 10.

And no, you don't need long combos to win in MDE, but without them you're definitely fighting an uphill battle against the safety of someone else's 50%+ health damage combos that can be resetted together as ambiguously as 33% damage ones. Other than to actually enjoy yourself by engaging in the game more than simply reciting a memorised combo from 3 hours in training mode there is no reason not to go for the long combo option in MDE, good neutral certainly helps you get that first hit that leads to the end of the match but if you have a slither of understanding on how to use an invul assist like Updo or Napalm Pillar to get hit confirms you have a good chance of victory against anyone that isn't at a higher level of play.

Also ChrisG was not really an example that short combos are currently viable, it was an example that shows us the player base has such a poor neutral that they can't deal with Fortune's head or Napalm Pillar assist, maybe it was just nerves or overconfidence but the result didn't say good things for those players.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Yes clearly people who support this change find it hard to spend a couple of hours in training mode to squeeze out an extra 2k damage, even more so when they can just copy combos from the internet that other people have made for them. The reason I don't use long combos is because I've never decided to sit in training mode or look on the internet to focus solely on combos, I got a simple BnB with reset potential and learned everything else by actually playing against people. And then you back up your point with Steam forum links? The same place that there are commonly topics complaining about infinites in a game with IPS?

By 'the big picture' are you referring to newcomers who haven't even played through the tutorials and don't know how to cancel a normal into a special, not knowing how to block or not even knowing how to navigate the menu? If so, then sure, they find long combos hard but I'm pretty sure a few of them will struggle even with 2 hit combos, so they are hardly good example when we're talking about reducing 20 second combos to 10.

And no, you don't need long combos to win in MDE, but without them you're definitely fighting an uphill battle against the safety of someone else's 50%+ health damage combos that can be resetted together as ambiguously as 33% damage ones. Other than to actually enjoy yourself by engaging in the game more than simply reciting a memorised combo from 3 hours in training mode there is no reason not to go for the long combo option in MDE, good neutral certainly helps you get that first hit that leads to the end of the match but if you have a slither of understanding on how to use an invul assist like Updo or Napalm Pillar to get hit confirms you have a good chance of victory against anyone that isn't at a higher level of play.

Also ChrisG was not really an example that short combos are currently viable, it was an example that shows us the player base has such a poor neutral that they can't deal with Fortune's head or Napalm Pillar assist, maybe it was just nerves or overconfidence but the result didn't say good things for those players.


I am referring to people who pick this up for 5 minutes, see that a combo is more than 3 - 5 button presses, and drop it. A buddy of mine tried it during the free weekend. He spent maybe 10 minutes in the tutorial and told me it was too hard. He said he couldn't even figure out the combo in the tutorial, it was too long for him to remember all the inputs without stopping to read them again. The combos in the fucking tutorial aren't even long what few there are.
 
I want to go with yes, do it now. But..... how bad would it effect the sg community in growth if we were to say wait for BB. I have no idea how long it could potentialy take to finish him up. I'm torn. But if updating the console with BB later on can be done smoothly i would go with 1. I'm just worried is all. So i went with 2.
 
People sure love citing that ChrisG does pretty good when he plays at tourneys.

Very small playerbase with no Japanese scene to copypaste -> most players can get rolled by fundamentals, it's not an SG thing.
 
heroxoot said:
So then what is your issue? Obviously long combos are not the issue, you've made it clear.

Long combos in this game aren't difficult, they're just annoying, on both ends.

I'll keep playing no matter which path the game takes but the game is definitely more fun with shorter combos because you spend less time watching a combo video and more time with Oki/resets/neutral. The interactive parts of the game.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
snip
It makes me wonder though, if there's no reason not to go for the long combo option, why do a lot of our top players go for resets in MDE? In fact I recall Duckator even once saying that finishing a long combo is detrimental to one's game. Also I don't mean this rhetorically, I'd like to know for real. I myself find resets just as viable as long combos in MDE, they're just riskier, but other people don't seem to think so.

EDIT: found the thread where duckator said that, but I don't know how to link to a specific post. http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/are-resets-too-dominant-now.342/
 
Calypsx said:
They are though. Since that's my only issue with the game, and the amount of damage that's done. This beta addressed both of them a little bit.
I can agree I don't like being put in the corner and just slapped there the whole match unable to move, but I don't think an IPS change is the fix. Instead maybe individual character balance.
obregon said:
People sure love citing that ChrisG does pretty good when he plays at tourneys.

Very small playerbase with no Japanese scene to copypaste -> most players can get rolled by fundamentals, it's not an SG thing.
Maybe if the game was more stable more people would play? Who wants to learn a game just to be laughed at and told it doesn't work anymore?

My only concern with this IPS realistically is I feel its slowly going to become SF4 combos. If I wanted to play such, I'd have been this whole time. I've played SF4 since vanilla, and SF3 for a long time. Am I good at either? Thats in your opinion, but the fact is the games have kept true to what they were originally. Never changed for worse, only improved. You can think the new IPS is an improvement, I think its just to make the game easier. Easy is not always fun.
 
heroxoot said:
I am referring to people who pick this up for 5 minutes, see that a combo is more than 3 - 5 button presses, and drop it. A buddy of mine tried it during the free weekend. He spent maybe 10 minutes in the tutorial and told me it was too hard. He said he couldn't even figure out the combo in the tutorial, it was too long for him to remember all the inputs without stopping to read them again. The combos in the fucking tutorial aren't even long what few there are.
OK I didn't even need to write several paragraphs. You've used this current free weekend as an example to show that the majority of votes in this poll are from people who don't know how to play the game. Looking in the "Possible New IPS" thread alone shows that there are multiple people in favor of this change, at the point that I stopped counting the people against the changes were in a considerable minority, and at that point it was out of something like 30 people, many of which are people that I can say have actually played the game long enough to know a lot of its ins and outs (so they're not Free Weekend Newcomers). Just because someone doesn't want to start arguing over their opinion like we are now it doesn't mean they don't have reasons, arguing on SH (or any place on the internet, for that matter) isn't really worthwhile anyway, so those people haven't committed any sin in not doing so.
 
gluemchen said:
I want to go with yes, do it now. But..... how bad would it effect the sg community in growth if we were to say wait for BB. I have no idea how long it could potentialy take to finish him up. I'm torn. But if updating the console with BB later on can be done smoothly i would go with 1. I'm just worried is all. So i went with 2.
Both options means that you support the Beta eventually being in the main game. Only difference between the two is waiting for Big Band means MDE build gets to stay around for awhile longer so it can be packaged with the new character.

About how long BB will take to be made and enter into the game? Basically within the same timeframe more or less of when Squigly was being made on the Beta. On specifics? You would have to ask Mike, but steady progress is happening. About how it would effect the community? I don't see keeping MDE build around a bit longer until Big Band is done being any worse compared to the community currently being split with PC on the current MDE build and consoles Still on the obsolete SDE build.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
OK I didn't even need to write several paragraphs. You've used this current free weekend as an example to show that the majority of votes in this poll are from people who don't know how to play the game. Looking in the "Possible New IPS" thread alone shows that there are multiple people in favor of this change, at the point that I stopped counting the people against the changes were in a considerable minority, and at that point it was out of something like 30 people, many of which are people that I can say have actually played the game long enough to know a lot of its ins and outs (so they're not Free Weekend Newcomers). Just because someone doesn't want to start arguing over their opinion like we are now it doesn't mean they don't have reasons, arguing on SH (or any place on the internet, for that matter) isn't really worthwhile anyway, so those people haven't committed any sin in not doing so.
I agree but I don't feel the game should be changed for the people who have given it time to learn. So many pick it up for a second and didn't want to put in effort. I can only guess that a good portion of the yes are people who saw the thread on steam community after trying it, and came to vote about it. IPS got more strict from SDE to MDE but the game stayed the same.
 
destruction_adv said:
It makes me wonder though, if there's no reason not to go for the long combo option, why do a lot of our top players go for resets in MDE? In fact I recall Duckator even once saying that finishing a long combo is detrimental to one's game. Also I don't mean this rhetorically, I'd like to know for real. I myself find resets just as viable as long combos in MDE, they're just riskier, but other people don't seem to think so.

EDIT: found the thread where duckator said that, but I don't know how to link to a specific post. http://skullgirls.com/forums/index.php?threads/are-resets-too-dominant-now.342/
I'd like to say that maybe he finds it more enjoyable (as I do, which is the reason I use them over long combos), or that he meant resetting before finishing a buttlong combo into another one for a kill is the better option, but I don't really know why he made that choice. I too am curious about this.

I'd also like to know what Mike would actually want from the game, so I can know if Skullgirls is going to head down the path I'd like it to and to get really serious about it or not, even if that goal is simply "to fit the desires of most of the players"
 
Calypsx said:
Can we bring rounds back for solo vs solo though? The current beta for solo rounds is a little disappointing.
I was actually going to say something about this. At the least characters need to be pushed apart so the downed player can safely recover. Something like how injustice does it perhaps.
 
Yeah, the downs are kinda weird, I'm not sure if I like or dislike them yet though. Oddly it makes solo vs. solo feel a bit more like team vs. team to me (maybe because the "round change" is just a new character replacing the dead one in teams). I'm actually not sure about the downs myself, but I don't play solo vs. solo enough to know what's up with it,
 
heroxoot said:
An opinion without a valid argument to back it up is not very valid at all. I could say chicken is better than beef, but if I don't tell you why, then how will you know why I feel this way? Just saying yes is also not having an opinion, its just answer the question without thinking.

Then make an argument. Your post above really only says that one person managed to show us that we are all wrong which is just not the case.

One (potentially) isolated event/player does not a trend make.
 
Calypsx said:
Can we bring rounds back for solo vs solo though? The current beta for solo rounds is a little disappointing.

Mike said that the current 'Downs' system still needs more polish before its ready to go into the main game. Hence why its not mentioned in the initial post.
 
Spencer said:
Then make an argument. Your post above really only says that one person managed to show us that we are all wrong which is just not the case.

One (potentially) isolated event/player does not a trend make.
I've already stated my argument, had you read the entire thread you would know that. Its more than 1 event. You don't suppose the reason why the game was so full of life during the preorder beta, and then dead when the real game came out has nothing to do with it? All the weak was weeded out. They all quit and or didn't buy the full game because they didn't like beta. And yes a lot of people had beta keys as they were given out.
 
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