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SG Game Design Discussion

I'm sure if it was one of the characters you played that was being buffed, you would be singing the same tune. =/
 
Jason said:
You're not going to be doing j.HP so low to the ground that you can get hit with the ground bombs or teleport and you can't have all 3 bombs out at the same time anymore anyway! The only things that Peacock has that cover the air space at mid to long range are HK Bomb and Item Drop (and possibly her assist but not necessarily since a lot of them are picking Hornet Bomber).

And I don't see any PW's getting owned for 10 rounds in neutral until they get in once and wreck people. Not with equally skilled players.

Whatever, I probably shouldn't be arguing this since I don't play either of these characters.


I play BOTH characters... I will go over your points 1 to 1:


1. j.hp full charge, cancel into fly, unfly loses ALOT of height. Unfly goes straight to the ground though it does it with flight momentum.

2. If painwheel absorbs plane that frees up a bomb, allowing peacock to plane>item drop>bomb x2

3. Plane>item drop gives peacock a shitload of time to get out other stuff like a teleport as soon as she recovers from the item drop. Item drop has very little recovery... Think guiles sf4 lp boom.
4. It was an example... Perhaps a bad one... But look at taludas games especially against dekillsage... See how often his painwheel does good shit and how often she just gets blanked.

But like I said.. This WILL be good for painwheel in the peacock matchup... But the jury should still be out as to whether this makes the matchup unplayable for peacock. As it is, the matchup is almost unplayable for painwheel, going in the other direction because painwheel has no counters for plane and item drop done close together.

And this is coming from playing both sides of the matchup.
 
J.hp still loses to air grab and Peacock still has pressure with Georges and SOID, so I don't see why this change would make the match-up unplayable...I guess if it's a Peacock that relies on projectiles and defensive air-to-air only?
 
I really don't think we are complaining at all. Quite the opposite. There are complaints about the buffs, and we are trying to tell you why they aren't game breaking (or even ' too much').

PWs bad air priority isn't a complaint, it is a matter of fact. They have their benefits as well (for instance j.mp is one of the single best moves in the game once it is out).

I'm think I'm being more than fair when I say that most MU won't be affected.

The ones that I would be curious about is Val's zombie jump-in and Parasoul. Though I feel the latter will still generally trade in her favor.
 
I think Painwheel will probably be doing better in the Peacock matchup now. although Peacock can rack up 2 air hits easily, it is a lot more difficult to get all 3. I think j.HP armour will have a noticeable affect on the matchup. Being able to armour through plane and item then still fly cancel and even unfly to block an incoming Peacock or armour through the all too common jump in air normal + item.

Peacock still has her throw which has always been great in the matchup, will just become necessary more often I believe. Painwheel will still hate being locked down at fullscreen.
 
I was reading about SamShoVSP here:
http://shoryuken.com/2014/02/25/dee...is-the-best-fighting-game-youve-never-played/

Blockstun is insanely, bafflingly short. No matter how strong the attack is, the blockstun for every hit is only 5 frames. You can almost never rely on frame advantage because there basically isn’t any, so you’re forced to rely on range and spacing to keep you away from quick counters to many pokes.

I like this. I like this A LOT.
 
Wishlist
  • bigger reversal window for napalm pillar
  • Napalm tears/Vials to be safer
  • Ms. peacock losing start up invincibility on argus agony so she loses her get out of jail free card
reasonable buffs
  • st. lp connects and napalm shots connect up close
  • Can connect m. napalm shot after cr.hk so m.napalm shot/sniper/cr.hk/m. napalm shot works if timed correctly
  • Shorten frames for egret call/dive recovery(by 2 to 4 nothing too big)
please note i'm an encore player and unaware of any new changes.
 
ukyo_rulz said:
I like this. I like this A LOT.

Wouldn't that mean basically everything in the game is negative on block, therefor the game devolves into block and punish?
 
Jason said:
Wouldn't that mean basically everything in the game is negative on block, therefor the game devolves into block and punish?
in SG probably but SamSho is wayyyy slower and everyone has swords. So it works out really well.
 
Jason said:
Wouldn't that mean basically everything in the game is negative on block, therefor the game devolves into block and punish?

I'm no SamSho player, but according to the experts in the article this did not happen. Instead, spacing and range awareness became emphasized.

Personally I like having everything be negative on block. Just from an aesthetic standpoint I think you should be rewarded when you score a hit and when you block an attack. I feel you shouldn't get rewarded for getting your attack blocked. It gives me the same heebee-jeebies I get when SF4 rewards players for getting hit. This other guy I am quoting from the article is almost taking the words right out of my mouth:

Samurai Shodown was designed to approximate the feeling of being in a duel to the death. If you were actually fighting someone with your life on the line, you would try to minimize unnecessary movements and actions, just like you would in the game. As such, SS is a game where waiting is good, where turtling isn’t cheap.

Along the same lines, SSV is a game where okizeme and wakeup setups aren’t particularly strong, and the emphasis is instead placed primarily on spacing and positioning. It’s a game where you have to read your opponent’s movements, carefully manage your spacing, and wait for just the right moment to throw out a move. That’s Samurai Showdown.
 
SamshoVspecial is an incredible game, but completely different from SG. Everything being negative on block wouldn't work well in this game. This is mostly a pressure orientated/rushdown heavy game. It just wouldn't fit.
 
agent13 said:
Parasoul would like a word with you

Still not as bad as PW, I play both of them. You know it's pretty fucked up when I have to tag in the "slow" grappler just to stand a chance against Peacock lol.
 
TrulyAmiracle said:
Still not as bad as PW, I play both of them. You know it's pretty fucked up when I have to tag in the "slow" grappler just to stand a chance against Peacock lol.

I still think painwheel has a slightly easier time getting in then parasoul, while you can argue about egret dive(being literally her only tool against ms. peacock which is faulty due to item crash) she has a way better mobility and can literally dodge george at the air show and BANG BANG BANG at a distance. Also due to parasoul's horrible jump speed peacock can just teleport to safety. My only option in some cases with parasoul is "taking the shot" and then again that stupid invincibility on argus agony makes me have a fit so i literally have to waste a bar hoping they don't know about the start up invincibility or my life is going to be really hard at that moment. Painwheel is a character who is based on getting in while parasoul is based on controlling whatever space she has and because of this i'll always think it's in painwheel's favor.


yeah it's kinda screwed how bella is best suited deal with spamcock.
 
If patience is a tool the Players can GIVE Parasoul.

But to that point, man if Parasoul is in a lower number'ed team than Parasoul, good luck. That chip game just knocks down your patience.
 
Parasoul vs. Peacock is a hard matchup but its nowhere near as bad as you guys seem to think it is.
 
agent13 said:
I still think painwheel has a slightly easier time getting in then parasoul, while you can argue about egret dive(being literally her only tool against ms. peacock which is faulty due to item crash) she has a way better mobility and can literally dodge george at the air show and BANG BANG BANG at a distance. Also due to parasoul's horrible jump speed peacock can just teleport to safety. My only option in some cases with parasoul is "taking the shot" and then again that stupid invincibility on argus agony makes me have a fit so i literally have to waste a bar hoping they don't know about the start up invincibility or my life is going to be really hard at that moment. Painwheel is a character who is based on getting in while parasoul is based on controlling whatever space she has and because of this i'll always think it's in painwheel's favor.


yeah it's kinda screwed how bella is best suited deal with spamcock.

I'm willing to go that it is shitty period, and we don't have to talk about what degree of shitty it is.

Let me sum up the PW vs Peacock MU. Peacock gets space. You eat a fair amount of damage trying to get in (item drop + air george crush armor, and if she misses with item drop, that stupid multihit bird that flies out of her stupid hat chews up your armor too). You finally get in. She teleports out after throwing stupid slow walking George. You read this perfectly and hit and confirm. Stupid slow walking George knocks you out of your combo. Peacock teleports away. Repeat until you are dead. You wonder why you continue to play PW without an assist.
 
agent13 said:
Tell me your secrets
If Dive was Parasoul's only option against Peacock, the matchup would be 0-10 as Dive is rather garbage
It's certainly in Peacock's favour but please don't make it out to be unwinnable

P.S. Parasoul-Fortune is/was a lot worse
 
IsaVulpes said:
If Dive was Parasoul's only option against Peacock, the matchup would be 0-10 as Dive is rather garbage
It's certainly in Peacock's favour but please don't make it out to be unwinnable

P.S. Parasoul-Fortune is/was a lot worse

For Parasoul or Fortune? Why out of curiosity? Fortune is a MU I think is relatively winnable for PW.
 
Dive at the very least allows parasoul to inch her way forward.
Otherwise she'd just be stuck blocking stuff until she died. I do wish the soldier could block the first part of peacocks super though instead of the beam just going right through him.

If you can get in range to land j.hp or j.hk peacock is/should be done.
I think its a bad match up but in encore I don't think its as bad as bella vs fortune or parasoul vs painwheel
 
Spencer said:
For Parasoul or Fortune? Why out of curiosity?
For Parasoul, because you're playing against a character with superior mobility, superior pressure, superior mixups, superior damage and superior defence who wins the neutral game via 214HP
 
IsaVulpes said:
If Dive was Parasoul's only option against Peacock, the matchup would be 0-10 as Dive is rather garbage
It's certainly in Peacock's favour but please don't make it out to be unwinnable

P.S. Parasoul-Fortune is/was a lot worse

Ugh, i'm not saying it's unwinnable but when you use parasolo it feels like 8-2/7-3 until you luckily manage to start applying pressure and if they have an assist like updo it's just aggravating.

Also i'm exaggerating but dive does help get some of the zoning pressure off so you can shoot some napalm shots at least. If you're lucky you'll catch them doing a george attack and not bang!bang!bang!

dekillsage said:
Dive at the very least allows parasoul to inch her way forward.
Otherwise she'd just be stuck blocking stuff until she died. I do wish the soldier could block the first part of peacocks super though instead of the beam just going right through him.

If you can get in range to land j.hp or j.hk peacock is/should be done.
I think its a bad match up but in encore I don't think its as bad as bella vs fortune or parasoul vs painwheel

The slight problem is getting in range.

I honestly don't find the fortune/painwheel mu's to be that hard against parasoul
With painwheel you need to be really good with footsies and ms. fortune just wait for a mistimed rekka or dp/anti-air appropriately and set tears.
 
@agent13 Painwheels problem vs parasoul is that everything she does gets stuffed by j.lp/j.lk -> j.hp unless she already has her j.hps armor active and can react to a hit with super. J.hk pretty much beats everything painwheel has on the ground, and its veeeeery easy for parasoul to put pw there.
 
dekillsage said:
@agent13 Painwheels problem vs parasoul is that everything she does gets stuffed by j.lp/j.lk -> j.hp unless she already has her j.hps armor active and can react to a hit with super. J.hk pretty much beats everything painwheel has on the ground, and its veeeeery easy for parasoul to put pw there.

Oh! I thought you meant a bad mu for parasoul, whoops
 
Lol... Painwheel versus peacock is pretty bad and parasoul versus peacock is even worse. But thats the old pre unfly build, dont know if the matchup has gotten better since then with unfly.


Parasoul has a terrible time against peacocks st.hp xx item release, st.hp xx plane pattern.

That pattern has been good since vanilla and has been an "infinite" pattern since vanilla, but its even better in encore because the plane goes full screen, unlike in vanilla,sde,or even mde.


Against that pattern, parasoul basically cant jump, she cant bike and she cant snipe and she cant shot either... And its even hard to call assists without them getting hit in startup.


The match isnt unwinnable but its the worst match ive currently played in sg.
 
Dime_x said:
Lol... Painwheel versus peacock is pretty bad and parasoul versus peacock is even worse. But thats the old pre unfly build, dont know if the matchup has gotten better since then with unfly.


Parasoul has a terrible time against peacocks st.hp xx item release, st.hp xx plane pattern.

That pattern has been good since vanilla and has been an "infinite" pattern since vanilla, but its even better in encore because the plane goes full screen, unlike in vanilla,sde,or even mde.


Against that pattern, parasoul basically cant jump, she cant bike and she cant snipe and she cant shot either... And its even hard to call assists without them getting hit in startup.


The match isnt unwinnable but its the worst match ive currently played in sg.

This is how i'm able to deal with peacock to some degree. Peacock always has to apply pressure. So if she's doing an item drop and sending george's stuff i usually do a sniper and pray to god they don't mash argus agony.

egret dive gives you some breathing room so you can at least reacting with a napalm shot/tear/sniper

You will always beat peacock in air to air matches. So keep pressuring her until she's forced to respect you or teleport. If she teleports immediately start shooting out napalm shots.

That's my weak strategy
 
Dime_x said:
Lol... Painwheel versus peacock is pretty bad and parasoul versus peacock is even worse. But thats the old pre unfly build, dont know if the matchup has gotten better since then with unfly.


Parasoul has a terrible time against peacocks st.hp xx item release, st.hp xx plane pattern.

That pattern has been good since vanilla and has been an "infinite" pattern since vanilla, but its even better in encore because the plane goes full screen, unlike in vanilla,sde,or even mde.


Against that pattern, parasoul basically cant jump, she cant bike and she cant snipe and she cant shot either... And its even hard to call assists without them getting hit in startup.


The match isnt unwinnable but its the worst match ive currently played in sg.

I'm really in "wait and see" mode regarding the PW vs Peacock (and Para) MU, and I'm trying not to jump to conclusions.

My gut says that not a lot will change in the Peacock MU, but it is entirely possible that being able to block will prolong our life long enough to get in and do our damage. As it is now, solo PW has very few opportunities to put the damage on, and more chances to do so are obviously a plus.
 
i wanna see that grenade business that was talked about for a bit my Mike on the egret shield. shit sounded boss
 
mcpeanuts said:
What business was this?
I suggested "Grenadegret" aka if M.Soldier absorbs a projectile, he tosses a small grenade which does boom.

Would look cool and shit.

Would not help against Peacock just reaction-Argusing the Egret Dive every time though.
 
dekillsage said:
Painwheels problem vs parasoul is that everything she does gets stuffed by j.lp/j.lk -> j.hp unless she already has her j.hps armor active and can react to a hit with super.

I always fucking forget to practice this

I will take your armor videos to heart and lab it up for production in Canada next month.
 
dekillsage said:
Or you can just call dive and block those projectiles and inch forward -_-


Hasn't worked for me. And i also tend to get hit out of dive quite a bit. When i do get it out im still usually getting fucked over by item. Dive to bike seems to be the best thing but even then my bike startup usually gets hit by item.

But hey, i could just be doing it completely wrong, its totally possible.
 
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