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SG Game Design Discussion

I'm not quite understanding where people are saying that the neutral game is "discouraging taking action". To me it seems exactly the opposite, with a heckuva lot of incredibly safe, unreactable mix ups and top tier rush down characters who pretty much will get in sooner or later. To me it seems more like a Vampire Savior-ish game where being aggressive (with smart baiting and spacing, of course) is almost always the best option.
 
Squire Grooktook said:
I'm not quite understanding where people are saying that the neutral game is "discouraging taking action". To me it seems exactly the opposite, with a heckuva lot of incredibly safe, unreactable mix ups and top tier rush down characters who pretty much will get in sooner or later. To me it seems more like a Vampire Savior-ish game where being aggressive (with smart baiting and spacing, of course) is almost always the best option.


in the discussion of hitstop, it refers to people doing supers in reaction/prediction to a button press since it means they are "locked" into whatever decision they are currently making (i.e. a button press, anything but blocking). The effectiveness is unique to each super and its amount of hitstop each super has.
 
Because an anti everything super that beats attacking, beats blocking and gives pressure no matter what as long as it makes contact.... Tends to discourage aggressive tendencies.

And when both players have something of this "sort" the game tends to get pretty turtly especially when assist lockout generally can mean corner and rape.

The games between age and myself tend to get really turtly when both of us are sitting on meter and waiting for the other player to step into the out of bounds area.

It feels like sf4 charge characters going against each other. A staredown.
 
I just want to say - remember how there are 50 MORE CHARACTERS in MvC2 than just the top tier? Remember how there were also COTA and MSF and XSF and MSH and MvC2? Check out how many of EVERYONE has reversal supers with invincibility and hitstop (the vast majority), check out how many of those supers are or can be made safe (well over half) and check out how much of the cast in MvC2 has safe DHCs (again, over half) and then tell me you forgot all of that when you say "that's not how Marvel worked".

"The current state of the matches I [Dime_x or Age] play online" and "the actual best way to play the game that will eventually happen" are not the same, and are probably not even related. Ice Beam, Sent/Blackheart, point Doom, and hell even Gambit were good for 5+ years of MvC2, remember.

Having a safe DHC requires having two meters minimum, which happens to the attacker first now if they are playing carefully. And if you blow those two meters you eventually get as the defender, the attacker can have 3+ waiting.
 
Mike_Z said:
"The current state of the matches I [Dime_x or Age] play online" and "the actual best way to play the game that will eventually happen" are not the same, and are probably not even related...

...Having a safe DHC requires having two meters minimum, which happens to the attacker first now if they are playing carefully. And if you blow those two meters you eventually get as the defender, the attacker can have 3+ waiting.

I certainly hope the endgame is different from our matches, because I'm not satisfied with where we're at. I was hoping for an idea of what the design goal was in relation to this. I have some theories for what I think can counteract it tactically, so I'm not quite asking for game changes yet.

I don't know how to properly describe the perceived problem in game design terms. One of the fun things in fighting games to me is doing 'smart stuff'.
-when I found out I could dash jump j.lp with cerebella and avoid updo assist at the start of the round, I *felt* like a genius.
-when I see someone jumping in at me and have the reactions to use dynamo right at max range as soon as they press a button, I *feel* skillful.
-when I sense a filia reset coming and do dynamo as soon as I'm out of hitstun because I know it will either work or give me pressure I *feel* dumb.
 
Mike_Z said:
You're only post-flash countering supers in like BB and MvC3, even in SF4 they have hitstop for cryin' out loud.
Huh? Other than some of the Grabs (eg Gief U1) which are just 0f startup after the flash, there is no super/ultra where I can't just block/DP/throw/jumpover on reaction.
The only difference is that in SF4 you can't cancel things on whiff, can't block in the air and have less air mobility options in general, so a mashed super/ultra is usually going to hit if you /did/ something.
 
My problem with hitstop is that supers seem to have considerably shorter startups than most other moves. Taking Filia's standing fastest standing normals it goes
Light : 5
Med : 10
Heavy : 12

Her reversal option Updo goes:
L : 8 (-58 on block)
M : 10 (-60 on block)
H : 13 (-69 on block)

Meanwhile for her supers (both of which function as reversals thanks to hitstop):
Fenrir : 3 (-87 on block)
Ground Gregor : 8 (-25 on block)
Air Gregor : 7 (variable but around -20 on block)

I notice a considerable imbalance in the difference between the super startups and the specials and normals. Bella's Dynamo is considerably more equal with her medium normals, but is still faster than her other reversal options.

Personally though, I think hitstop is fine despite this on everything except (air) Gregor, since Filia already has a lot of stuff she really does not need a temporarily invulnerable reversal that can be used anywhere and if Fortune's air super has hitstop too, I'd say the same about that.
 
Eh, I think hit-stop supers and safe DHC options are fine. It's now up to the players to respect the options available to the defender and attempt different resets accordingly, like resetting characters with strong ground reversals (Bella) in the air, going for burst baits at what would normally be a high/low/throw reset point, blocking + calling invincible assist to beat grounded reversals, etc.

And each player starts with one meter available, with the attacker having the option to reset before the defender gets his second meter and going for the kill off of that, so its not like the safe DHC is always available. There are ways around all of that, it's not like you'e forced to deal with it.
 
Age said:
It's a complaint because SG shouldn't be a game where you default to sit and wait.

Wait, when has THIS ever been a problem?

I mean really. Even players like Duckator who prefer to play it safe behind their assists don't 'sit and wait' very much.

And FYI you only need to wait like 10 frames to bait a reversal, that doesn't exactly require a lot of patients.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Huh? Other than some of the Grabs (eg Gief U1) which are just 0f startup after the flash, there is no super/ultra where I can't just block/DP/throw/jumpover on reaction.
The only difference is that in SF4 you can't cancel things on whiff, can't block in the air and have less air mobility options in general, so a mashed super/ultra is usually going to hit if you /did/ something.

Chun Li's super done with Medium Kick and Sagat's Super done with Light are both post-flash unblockable/unreactable.

And like you mentioned, there are a bunch of throw supers and ultras that aren't jumpable after the flash.

There probably should be more post-flash unblockable supers in SSF4 but I think its probably a very good thing that all non-grappler ultras are blockable post flash because you get ultras for free. Randomly throwing out an ultra that the game gave you because you got your ass kicked probably shouldn't be made any stronger.
 
Hitstop or not I'd also like to point out that dynamo->cat heads isn't any more mindless than pillar-> bikes-> cat heads
bypass-> scalpels which was + af on block in sde
fenrir/gregor-> cat heads
pressing a macro to become a god with double

I play a 2 man team you better believe I'm going to dynamo and get bella out. If she dies its over and I don't believe its mindless strategy when people have been doing the same shit for like a year and haven't been called mindless for it.
 
Kinda noticing the trend is Cat Heads, which doesn't have a god like reversal into it when Double's on point and also cost two meter to use...hint hint.

What is Bypass -> Scalpels on block now, btw? Can you actually punish Val or is it as mindless as SDE?
 
From what I was told its supposed to be less safe on block, but you can't even punish it at certain heights so it does the same exact thing it did in sde lol
 
dekillsage said:
Hitstop or not I'd also like to point out that dynamo->cat heads isn't any more mindless than pillar-> bikes-> cat heads
bypass-> scalpels which was + af on block in sde
fenrir/gregor-> cat heads
pressing a macro to become a god with double

I play a 2 man team you better believe I'm going to dynamo and get bella out. If she dies its over and I don't believe its mindless strategy when people have been doing the same shit for like a year and haven't been called mindless for it.

I agree, hell i think there should be more safe dhc's. Half the reason i pick double is because it gives me another chance to play.
 
Dagwood said:
I agree, hell i think there should be more safe dhc's. Half the reason i pick double is because it gives me another chance to play.

Pretty sure every team has a "safe" DHC in some form now if you set it up properly.
 
View619 said:
Pretty sure every team has a "safe" DHC in some form now if you set it up properly.
I think most two character combinations don't have safe DHCs. Only five characters have level 1 supers that can be safe on block from a DHC (I say "can be" because, for example, Death Crawl DHC to Lenny is still negative enough that it can be punished by a full combo. The first super needs to cause enough blockstun to cover the recovery of the second). Then there's also weird shit you can do like Bandwagon Rushdown DHC to Checkmate Incision, which is safe if you DHC such that the scalpels hit from full screen. And like, some level 3 supers can be safe on block. But if your second character is, for example, Filia, I don't believe there's any way to set up a safe DHC no matter what you do.
 
mcpeanuts said:
I think most two character combinations don't have safe DHCs. Only five characters have level 1 supers that can be safe on block from a DHC (I say "can be" because, for example, Death Crawl DHC to Lenny is still negative enough that it can be punished by a full combo. The first super needs to cause enough blockstun to cover the recovery of the second). Then there's also weird shit you can do like Bandwagon Rushdown DHC to Checkmate Incision, which is safe if you DHC such that the scalpels hit from full screen. And like, some level 3 supers can be safe on block. But if your second character is, for example, Filia, I don't believe there's any way to set up a safe DHC no matter what you do.

Oh, I should have specified team as 3 man. =/
 
View619 said:
Oh, I should have specified team as 3 man. =/
Even then I'm not sure every combination has a safe DHC, although for 3 character teams yeah I would say most of them have at least one safe DHC as long as everyone's in the right order, and you're willing to spend 3 or more bars to stay safe.
 
to the "its brain dead because i can mash out reversals and get a chance at pressure after", what if that pressure gets diffused? i kind of find it interesting people against it are painting the scenario black and white and saying "oh i get pressure now", but don't expand on what happens after this.

pressure can be dealt with; you being down on resources is more of a hard fact
 
GirlyStyle said:
to the "its brain dead because i can mash out reversals and get a chance at pressure after", what if that pressure gets diffused? i kind of find it interesting people against it are painting the scenario black and white and saying "oh i get pressure now", but don't expand on what happens after this.

pressure can be dealt with; you being down on resources is more of a hard fact
I think you are oversimplifying it by saying "pressure can be dealt with" the entire point of fighting games, any good ones, is to not be pressured. This isnt accomplishable of course, but it is an end goal, to not be hit. Pressure ups chances of being hit. Therefor it isnt something to be taken lightly. And also, one of the strongest "pressures" in the entire game is catheads. The amount of mixups that have to be dealt with from a good cathead user is staggering. There is probably a good 5-6 mixups AT LEAST that have to be dealt with and it isnt just left/right there are also high/lows to be dealt with, and frame traps for pushblock and remember that in bella/doubles case, it will be cats PLUS cerecopter.
 
Dime_x said:
I think you are oversimplifying it by saying "pressure can be dealt with" the entire point of fighting games, any good ones, is to not be pressured. This isnt accomplishable of course, but it is an end goal, to not be hit. Pressure ups chances of being hit. Therefor it isnt something to be taken lightly. And also, one of the strongest "pressures" in the entire game is catheads. The amount of mixups that have to be dealt with from a good cathead user is staggering. There is probably a good 5-6 mixups AT LEAST that have to be dealt with and it isnt just left/right there are also high/lows to be dealt with, and frame traps for pushblock and remember that in bella/doubles case, it will be cats PLUS cerecopter.

there is oversimplification from both ends.

forcing someone to blow a resource means, yes you are in an immediate bad position, but as you mention "the entire point of fighting games", its also important to know how to DEAL with these positions and turn them around on your opponent. you have just gotten them to blow resource and you now have information on how your opponent behaves.

a big part of fighting games, especially in ones with resource management like ST/SG, is you have to have confidence to know how to deal with these positions.

i approach these situations in SG similar to how i deal with Balrog's super in ST. Sure he can mash it out pretty good in most reversal situations, and it will either lead to doing over half your life bar or end in being so plus on block you get a solid mixup, but an integral part of know how to beat balrog is baiting super and dealing with that situation.


also again, you are saying it like everyone always has two meters and always have double as the next character in their roster.
 
Dime_x said:
I think you are oversimplifying it by saying "pressure can be dealt with" the entire point of fighting games, any good ones, is to not be pressured. This isnt accomplishable of course, but it is an end goal, to not be hit. Pressure ups chances of being hit. Therefor it isnt something to be taken lightly. And also, one of the strongest "pressures" in the entire game is catheads. The amount of mixups that have to be dealt with from a good cathead user is staggering. There is probably a good 5-6 mixups AT LEAST that have to be dealt with and it isnt just left/right there are also high/lows to be dealt with, and frame traps for pushblock and remember that in bella/doubles case, it will be cats PLUS cerecopter.

Honestly I find Double's mixup game to be pretty tame compared to the rest of the cast, even when she has cat heads to guarantee mixups its not all that scary, plus there's always PBGC and Alpha Counter.
 
Well... It would seem that people overwhelmingly want it to stay in (or at least people that post on this forum) so rather than slam my head against a brick wall, I'll just say meh w/e.
 
View619 said:
So, instead of complaining about Catheads (again...) and strong reversals into it, how about we get some discussion on how to deal with it going in the Gameplay Discussion thread?


i would contribute but.... ya know.... xbox :(
 
people are wasting even more meter into cat heads? why not just NOT throw out a super without hit confirming
 
Yeah, so i figured if this stupidity is going to stay in the game the way it is... Then I'm going to design a team around it... And yeah the team is stupid... But you know... Its whatevs, cant beat the stupid, join the stupid.
 
Dime_x said:
Yeah, so i figured if this stupidity is going to stay in the game the way it is... Then I'm going to design a team around it... And yeah the team is stupid... But you know... Its whatevs, cant beat the stupid, join the stupid.

Isn't that usually the answer though, until somebody finds a solution?

A suggestion is reset before the DHC becomes available and kill off of that or reset in the air only (my favourite) but you can abuse it too, I suppose.
 
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