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Skullgirls Encore Edition Tiers and Matchups Discussion Thread: The Revengeance

keninblack said:
Her(Squigly) damage is lacking.

What's good damage? Assistless I'm at 8-9k in the corner and 7.5ish-8k midscreen, depending on charge.
 
alexpi said:
What's good damage? Assistless I'm at 8-9k in the corner and 7.5ish-8k midscreen, depending on charge.

My meter at midscreen which is probably flawed is ~7k or less is bad, ~7.5k is average, ~8k or more is good. In the corner, add ~1k to those numbers.
 
That's what I thought. Squigly's big damage problem is that you need to commit to it early as you're having to do a Daisy Pusher about 10 hits in.
 
Spencer said:
But once she gets a touch, she becomes 90% Filia. She's impossibly difficult to get off of you with dope amazing resets. Plus, she can confirm from pretty insane ranges.

She does struggle in neutral, and she does have some pretty shitty MU... but all she needs is one touch.
The whole "once you get in your dead" is sort of a thing that's shared by the whole cast though. Top tier is better at staying in.
 
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Could someone explain to me why fortune isn't in top or second to top tier? Is it because no one plays fortune?

'Cause I think theoretically a character that can lock you down from any point of the stage (because the head is a very good tool) or stop a character's jump in with a dp anywhere in the stage (depending on head placement) fairly decent resets and enough mobility and tools (5f jab, large low, good air to ground normals, fiber as a mobility tool, head to bait pushblocks) to get in should be higher on the list.

I dunno videogames are hard.
 
keninblack said:
Retail

Fukua
Cerebella
Filia
Peacock
----
Eliza
Parasoul
----
Painwheel
Valentine
Fortune
----
Big Band
Double
Squigly
Most accurate list
 
Stuff said:
snip


She can't really stop a characters jump in with a dp. if they throw any hit, more than likely 90% of the time it will always beat the DP, it never trades it will always lose. you can lock down a jump in with the head if you predict the jump start.

resets are decent but can be predictable after a bit. she has enough mobility, but with changes over time it doesnt seem enough anymore. One thing she lacks the most, that just about every other cast member can do is is confirming off throws without spending meter. Just about everyone else can do ground and air throws and follow them up with bnb into oki/ resets without spending 1 meter.

Fiber as a mobility tool is not that great now. its pretty easy to punish now, i wouldnt trust it to move around so much.

She's still a strong chracter but not for those reasons. at least thats how i view her now, but maybe im just crazy. i dunno how to play this game anymore.
 
the thing is. the problem with squigly is the same with parasoul both can and WILL fuck you up but you need a lockdown assist of some sort. squigly alone isn't scary but squigly with copter is prolly a headache. as you get more technical you can pick in the slightest of someone holding forward and what not and just snag them with SBO not to say she's godlike BUT she's very good and the only ones that are low tier as of now is double. band and squigs are higher than that IMO.

my list for retail

Top:
Fukua
Filia
Peacock
Bella
Close Top(borderline top):
Eliza, PW
Mid:
Fortune,Parasoul, Val Band Squigly
Low: double

Beta:
Top
Val, Eliza, PW
Close Top:
Parasoul Fukua Peacock
Mid: Fortune, Parasoul, Val, Band, Squigly.
Low:Double(she's not as low as many would think but she's basically.......Yoshimitsu in SFxT(? correct me if i'm dead ass wrong)

@Stuff

TL;DR whatever she has regarding tools, other members of the cast do it better. her air to airs really suck and can only be used if you're higher than the opponent, jumped first etc. headless you pretty much sacrifice damage for a better neutral which really if you had headon and know your stuff then you don't really worry about it too much
 
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KidPanda said:
She can't really stop a characters jump in with a dp. if they throw any hit, more than likely 90% of the time it will always beat the DP, it never trades it will always lose.
This has not really been my experience of jumping at Fortune while pushing buttons.
 
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Squigly is gdlk pls. J.lk, charged dp, lvl 2 sing, and cr.lk are enough to really beat most characters in neutral except maybe eliza and fukua. Her tech is just harder to do and use, and synergy takes alot of work and experimentation
 
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mcpeanuts said:
This has not really been my experience of jumping at Fortune while pushing buttons.

yea i kinda exaggerated what i said. but more often than not, i tend to lose when i try to DP and get punished pretty bad. overall i just dont quite think its as reliable as it once was.
 
wait, so are we going back to the bust/butt tier list?
 
IsaVulpes said:
Every char is really good
The only things I don't really feel threatened by are anchor Band (ie not Solo but assistless) and meterless Double, and both of those are quite possibly just cus I rarely meet them

I don't really care about this list crap (I made a post detailing why somewhere in here..), but I'm rather confused by Squigly being (2nd-) worst, care to explain @Tomo009 @keninblack?
Like, there's absolutely no fucking way, but perhaps you have a reason other than "I never fought a good Squigly"..?
You answered it yourself when you said "Every char is really good". Squigly is very competitive, but she has flaws that hold her back just slightly. Mostly her horizontaly mobility making neutral difficult in some matchups.

She is not very team versatile due to the reliance on assists and the heavy reliance on meter when she isn't particularly good at building it herself.

I heavily disagree with Keninblack, her resets are amazing and very solid, some of my earliest resets I run up to this day because they still work. Her pressure is also very good but requires making a lot of reads because she is incredibly easy to pushblock off you and when you pusblock her, her horizontal movement makes it really difficult for her to reset pressure like many other characters in this game can do.

I think Squigly is very good, but someone needs to be lower on the tier list. I'm not happy with having beta Painwheel down there either, she has become a monster, especially with the new flight speed increase.

Like I said in the post, I'm all over the place with my tier lists at the moment because it is very difficult to tell. I definitely feel Val and Cock are still the top 2, but noone feels low tier to me at all in this game.
 
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Spencer said:
My meter at midscreen which is probably flawed is ~7k or less is bad, ~7.5k is average, ~8k or more is good. In the corner, add ~1k to those numbers.

I don't even look at damage these days. Everything I do revolves around getting the other guy into the corner then double-snapping. I'm 99% rusty and suck at everything now, but I am almost 100% at converting assist hits into double-snap kills when I tag multiple characters.

mcpeanuts said:
It's the last one.

I used to play regularly against Inuchiyo5131, who did OK at 2013 Evo. I would maybe go around 33% against him. Haven't seen him lately though. There are also a lot of scary Parasouls here, or at least they're scary to me. There was this guy last weekend who had a knack for constantly putting me in positions where it would look like I could press a button, but then I'd get hit by some random teardrop or whatever.

And then there are all the random PW/Val dudes. I have no idea why but multiple people I faced were rocking PW/Val, which just sounds terrible to me. Is there something I am missing here? They seemed to have good combos and resets but both characters had mediocre assists so their neutral sucked. Is there some amazing PW/Val tech that I missed?

Stuff said:
Could someone explain to me why fortune isn't in top or second to top tier? Is it because no one plays fortune?

I used to have her at the top but I downgraded her because she just... got worse. I dunno what the changes were exactly because she's one of only two characters I never play (along with Painwheel) but even the good Fortunes I used to play against have lost that ridiculously suffocating headless pressure that could convert into insta-kills from just about anywhere. Maybe they got rusty like I did, but I think it's Fortune herself that got nerfed.

alexpi said:
wait, so are we going back to the bust/butt tier list?

Val/Squiggly on top, and then the rest don't matter.
 
PW/Val is like the only way you could possibly lose at the character select screen in Skullgirls. I cannot think of a worse team than those 2 in that order.
 
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Geno's Personal Tier List:

Retail:
A+: Fukua, Peacock, Filia, Cerebella
A: Valentine, Eliza, Ms Fortune, Painwheel, Parasoul, Double, Squigly
A-: Big Band

Beta:
A+: Valentine, Cerebella, Peacock, Beowulf
A: Eliza, Fukua, Filia, Ms Fortune, Painwheel, Parasoul, Double, Squigly
A-: Big Band



That being said, I believe every character is viable. Just my own personal opinions that nobody should agree with because I'm a scrublord
 
Tomo009 said:
PW/Val is like the only way you could possibly lose at the character select screen in Skullgirls. I cannot think of a word team than those 2 in that order.

Challenge accepted.

Just kidding, I like to bitch, but lord would that be tough.
 
I wont go full blown tier list because reasons... But i disagree with kens and ukyos lists, as far as the lists go im closest to dreamepitaphs list. Anyways:

Val is top tier in retail and beta to me. Parasoul is midtier in retail and beta. Painwheel is midtier in retail, and top 3 in beta.

Fukua bottom of top 5 in retail and beta. BB high mid or lower top.

Everyone else is w/e... They could reasonably be put just about anywhere, i do feel squigly is low, but only by comparison. If the top tier is A, squigly is like B, imho.
 
People have been saying that Val got better in Beta. I don't play beta because my main laptop is Linux-only and I hate firing up my old windows machine. Anyone case to fill me in on what her improvements were?
 
- Counter super +5f active counter period, -5f recovery period.
- Adjust angle of air shuriken/syringe tosses. LP is shallower, MP is unchanged, HP is flatter.
- All levels of lag vial only go away if Valentine is hit by a super or snapback, and count down at half speed when she is in hitstun.
- Savage Bypass assist starts ahead of where it used to.
- Air Savage Bypass allows Valentine to move afterward on hit only. Limited to 2 per jump, and they must be different strengths.
- Air Bypass hits for(750/825/900) and scales damage to 66%.
- s.MP all hits combo to s.HP, s.MP->MP drags downward vs air to improve comboability.
- Valentine can counter bursts, with both versions of her counter super.
- Can catch bursts with counter supers, but doing that now scales any followup combo to 50% for both versions. Countering other moves besides bursts does not scale the following combo.
- Mortuary Drop forward movement distance increased by ~90 pixels to help it connect after pushblocks.
- Level 3 won't slide past the opponent, should greatly improve usability
 
No, they weren't at all necessary.

The bypass change is fun, though and changes to counter/mortuary are good I guess because those moves are/were kinda bad so they saw very little usage.
 
Tomo009 said:
The bypass change is fun, though and changes to counter/mortuary are good I guess because those moves are/were kinda bad so they saw very little usage.

I mained Val for a looooong time and I don't even know how to do counter super to this day. :PUN:

In other news, I might drop Big Band to bottom tier for retail, to join Val. I was having trouble with some of his tools before but it turns out I just wasn't familiar with them. Also dropping Parasoul from Top to High. Not because she was weaker than I thought, but because Fukua and Peacock were stronger than I thought. Finally, dropping Double to mid-tier because Parasoul raised the bar for high tier in my list. Filia might possibly be comparable to Parasoul but Double at Parasoul-tier is a joke.

Top:
Peacock
Fukua

High:
Parasoul
Filia

Mid:
Double
Eliza
Painwheel
Cerebella
Squiggly
Fortune

Low:
Big Band
Valentine

Good discussion guys. I read all the comments and take them into consideration. Sometimes I learn something new and revise my views (more often I conclude that I am right and the other person is wrong).
 
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Tomo009 said:
No, they weren't at all necessary.

I'm sure that I'm in the minority when I say she DID need buffs. I honestly find her to be one of the weaker characters in the cast... and it's purely because of the PW/Val matchup.

So let's compare.

I mean, PW has better pressure on block, reliable cast-wide combos (for ease of use), she deals more damage, has a superior zoning game, a safe/combo-able DHC and stronger normals (in my opinion). I'd even argue that PWs reset options are just as good if not better than Valentine's. Both characters have the same weaknesses. Their assists are pretty bad and their defensive game is poor. That said PW has armor to bait reversals, punish jump ins and can fly/thresher option select to avoid cross unders and air resets (which is practically safe on block) that can lead to full combos. Meanwhile Val has her back dash which can be used to avoid lows and throws... While great it is hardly ever used effectively and that's about it. Also, I can't say I see where Val has a distinct advantage over PW against anyone in the cast. For the most part they both have 5/5 or 6/4 matchups.

So... that makes me wonder based on what's above (though totally my own opinion) why Val is regarded so highly and PW so low?

Which brings me to the player factor. I've been told plenty of times that PW is only good because of the way I play her. Or that it's my team composition that makes her good. To that I say---

We need more @Duckator 's.

Seriously. I need more evidence to convince me otherwise on Val at this point in the game. Don't get me wrong. I still lose to Valentine players. That said I feel Val got a name (mostly) for hiding behind (good?) DP assists calls. That aspect of the game while not gone, doesn't hold up as well as it used to. Most players either have ways to deal with assist DP turtling or respect it enough not to go ham at every given opportunity. I haven't seen ANYONE playing Valentine in recent memory that makes me afraid of her like I once was. (I mean no disrespect to all the Valentine players! Love you guys! Keep it up!)

So after all my ranting here we go. LIST TIME. I've got no feelings on Beowulf as of yet so he isn't in the list.

S
Peacock : With proper assist calls and garbage patterns she can totally prevent you from doing ANYTHING. Rightfully poor defensive options.
Bella : Has an answer to everything... DYNAMO!!! Amongst other options. High damage. Great reset potential. Only truly bad match up in my opinion can be ^ .
-----
A+
Fukua : Great zoning. Easy and damaging confirms. J.hk is one of the most abusable and rewarding normals in the game. Has no severely bad matchups. Safe DHC. Great Chip. Fantastic burst baits. Throw able.
Painwheel : Superb neutral control bested only by Peacock. Read my spiel up above
Eliza : Fantastic normals. Can confirm off of practically any stray hit with c.mk and c.hp both vacuuming. Tons of multi overhead options. Horus frame traps off of EVERYTHING. Sekhmet shenanigans. RESETS
-----
A
Fortune : Extremely high damage and great reset potential. Fastest s.lp in the game. Full combo's from DP. Be Headed is STILL hit invincible and SAFE. Never have to use OTG in combos.. Great for DHC continuations.
Parasoul : Great variety of normals and block string routes. Potential for zoning. Amazing air grab and reset options. Tear shot area control/explosions/frame traps. Tons of multi hitting burst bait setups. Low damage
-----
B+
Filia : Excellent reset game. Surprising array of mobility options. Safe-ish DP with meter. Good variety of useful assists. Great jump in pressure/mix up. Ground neutral is pretty poor. Most grounded blockstrings are unsafe.
Squigly : Decent damage/reset options. Weak mobility/reversal options. Jumps to A+ tier with stances charged. Can control neutral if she has meter. Best ground mix up in the game with stancels.
Val : Scary reset game. Good burst baits. Diverse and useful set of useful air normals. Decent projectiles. Needs weight class/character specific combos to get the most out of her tool set. Low damage.
Big Band : AMAZING specials/assists. Highest hit for hit damage. Nobody punishes assists like he can. Has to make reads and use appropriate specials to gain ground. Disappointing set of normals. Blockstring mix up is too predictable. TERRIBLE HURT BOXES.
-----
B
Double : Safe DHC. Decent assist options. Good air throw conversions. Low damage for required effort. Meter hungry. No overhead leads to poor ground mixup. Very predictable attack and neutral options... J.hp anyone? She seriously needs level 1 catheads again.
 
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Don't fully agree with Taluda's list but its definitely the closest to mine in comparison to what everyone else is putting out haha.

And yeah Val needed buffs pls xP
 
RemiKz said:
I rather see Double get improved than have 1 meter catheads back

I completely agree, just buff her overall neutral(maybeprollynot) and intimidation.

1 meter catheads is not that way to go, and I LOVE that shit.

It's not fun for the person dealing with it, I'd argue if its even fun for the person doing it, its not fun for the people watching it. Throw in the fact that its not even hard to block and you just have a very boring thing happening.

Something needs to happen where she actually gets something off of CH, or damage of some sort in general, and mixups worth something.

It also doesn't help that in the current meta anchor Bella is as popular as anchor Double if not more popular.

SOLO/Anchor Bella vs SOLO/Anchor Double is 7-3 imho. Or at LEAST a very hard 6-4.
 
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Give double a short hop

or something

wrong topic for this I guess
 
I think the game is just too balanced.

Pretty much the only thing everyone is agreeing on is that Peacock is really good.

I don't tier on matchups alone for SG, I tier on overall importance as I see it and how powerful they can be in optimal team setups.

This is why I rate BB so high and it also helps out Double a bit, because while BB has a lot of bad matchups, he brings so much to a team as the most powerful support character in the game.

Double is a little more balanced, it seems that many in America view her as weak now and I'm not sure why that is, but she also brings a lot to the table in the way of support even after the nerfs.
 
I don't think so, its a tier discussion discussing strengths, weaknesses, and viability of the characters. I don't see whats wrong about discussing it. Just can't drag it on for too long I guess but I mean this thread is probably better than the other one at this point xD

It definitely isn't too balanced, plenty of chars that are clearly stronger/weaker its just that the bar is small.

Even with not judging specific matchups it needs to go into account if its a popular one. Solo Double vs Solo Bella happens all the time because they both play anchor's very consistently. Double is at a strong disadvantage in that very common situation.
 
wtf is double gonna do to bella? shoot me? then shoot me. if bella has the life lead its basically a waiting game for double to die.

you wanna j hp? armor dynamo
you wanna dash low? armor 360

pls tell me you're bold enough for a run up throw.
 
Elda Taluda said:
So... that makes me wonder based on what's above (though totally my own opinion) why Val is regarded so highly and PW so low?

I agree that Val is essentially PW, but worse.

About Double:
I think that point Double sucks, but I think her support is so good she's good enough for mid-tier anyway. I wouldn't mind some buffs for her on point.
 
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