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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Dhoppler said:
You mean, in this game because of chains? Or in general?

I mean in general. The exact mechanics used to hitconfirm aren't really relevant, but people not being willing to test out what is or isn't confirmable is very relevant.
 
@dekillsage
You use a lot of mechanics that most people don't, and you play decently well. You also mash like there's no tomorrow; the fact that other people lose to it speaks about them, not about you.
You're still first-order-optimal good cuz we're not at advanced SG yet. <3

MOVING ON, tonight will be H teleport = M teleport if your assist is coming out or active, as soon as they start taunting or get hit you can do what you like.

Also sage, get ready for Bomber to be worth doing on point soon.
 
Sometimes i can confirm doubles cr.lk into her st.mk, but I'm pretty sure thats a stand confirm, or seeing that doubles cr.lk will hit counterhit something in its startup, which is like a preconfirm i guess.
 
Could someone ask mike what those mechanics that the evo champ is using that others dont are? Cause id like to know what the evo champ does that i dont.... Besides wreck fools and win evo...
 
Mike_Z said:
@dekillsage
You use a lot of mechanics that most people don't, and you play decently well. You also mash like there's no tomorrow; the fact that other people lose to it speaks about them, not about you.
You're still first-order-optimal good cuz we're not at advanced SG yet. <3

MOVING ON, tonight will be H teleport = M teleport if your assist is coming out or active, as soon as they start taunting or get hit you can do what you like.

Also sage, get ready for Bomber to be worth doing on point soon.
I am soooooo ready for M Bomber to allow dash up follow up. *bomber intensifies
 
Mike_Z said:
@dekillsage
You use a lot of mechanics that most people don't, and you play decently well. You also mash like there's no tomorrow; the fact that other people lose to it speaks about them, not about you.
You're still first-order-optimal good cuz we're not at advanced SG yet. <3

Also sage, get ready for Bomber to be worth doing on point soon.

I'm actually pretty aware~

Also AYYYY omw
 
MOVING ON, tonight will be H teleport = M teleport if your assist is coming out or active, as soon as they start taunting or get hit you can do what you like.
Is there a way to do "H=M from when Assistcall is pressed until the assist left the screen"?
So it'd still be locked out during the taunt animation, but not anymore for 300f if it got snapped out.
That sounds like "the best of both worlds" to me (not locked out for eternity, but the opponent isn't "getting punished" for hitting your assist), but I'm not sure whether the game is able to identify this properly -- I guess you could put the raw numbers it takes for the assist to leave into places?

Any thought on H=Fake while it doesn't work (rather than H=M)?

Also sage, get ready for Bomber to be worth doing on point soon.
236LK = Pinion Dash that's safe on block
236MK = Current MK.Bomber without the Invinc
236HK = Fukua H.Drill with slightly worse frame data, but fully invinc (but still not from frame1?)

Great yes
 
IsaVulpes said:
The only thing that advantage has to do with how long you have to confirm is that a move which is +100 on hit at least needs to have 100f hitstun, which is a boatload. But all of this is the hitstun, none of this the frame advantage.
If you take a move which has 100f hitstun and 95f recovery, it is +5 on hit and NOT A SINGLE SHIT harder to confirm. Note how the frame advantage got reduced by 95% AND NOTHING CHANGED. This is a slight hint at: Frame advantage doesn't matter for crap.

There is no "we're both right", you're wrong.


Advantage on hit does matter, it just doesn't seem like it when a move has damn near two seconds of stun. That's not a confirm. It's a silver platter. (That's a joke, it's still a confirm)
Either way it was a shit example. Drop it.

dekillsage said:
idk apparently reactions = confirms
pretty cool


Confirms are just trained reactions for an either/or scenario. The choice is usually a move that's safe on block but won't combo or a move that combos but is counter hit city on block. This game was streamlined to be beginner friendly from a competitive standpoint so it's not heavy on situations that execution heavy, or situations that require a snap judgement to quit doing pressure that won't get you killed and start doing damage. You have a lot more time to recognize what's going on. Does that make sense?

Edit: I'm late on everything. I'm going to bed. Teleports are going to make me cry.

What will advanced Skullgirls look like? Maybe we'll learn one day.
 
IsaVulpes said:
Is there a way to do "H=M from when Assistcall is pressed until the assist left the screen"?
Yes. And I intentionally did not do that, because then things like sliding the assist would prevent her from running away, and I am fine with her doing that.

IsaVulpes said:
Any thought on H=Fake while it doesn't work (rather than H=M)?
Eh, I could go either way, but I'd sorta rather you get pasted for screwing it up. @people that play Peacock foreals?

[edit] I know people are sarcastic in response to me saying SG isn't played very well yet, but if you look at early MvC2 vs late MvC2 it's not even in the same league.
 
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ClarenceMage said:
Reaction time is ABSOLUTELY something you can practise.

I could not confirm off of 2 normals in KoF until I grinded and practised it. Before then, I had to do 3 and that was because my reaction times weren't practised in that situation.

Are you sure you didn't develop your reaction times but more just got familiar with the game, all the situations it could throw at you, and all your possible responses? (I swear I saw a chart about this a while back specifically pertaining to fighting games)

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2013/07/24/sports-gene-excerpt
TLDR: Jennie Finch, born 1980, strikes out MLB hitters (including Barry Bonds) with an underhand pitch that nobody is used to.
"When people are tested for their simple reaction time -- how fast they can press a button in response to a light -- most of them, whether they are teachers, lawyers or pro athletes, take around 200 milliseconds, or one fifth of a second."

And that's your useless piece of trivia for the day! Sorry for the derail.
 
Mike_Z said:
Yes. And I intentionally did not do that, because then things like sliding the assist would prevent her from running away, and I am fine with her doing that.
That's kinda precisely why I'd want it to be in :P
It seems counterintuitive to me that my opponent hitting my assist out of its startup leads to me having better options.
HK-Teleport working as-normal would still a bit sooner generally with my suggestion, but not by as-much

Eh, I could go either way, but I'd sorta rather you get pasted for screwing it up. @people that play Peacock foreals?
I play Peacock foreals and from how it sounds like, I'd prefer the Fake! Both from a gameplay and a "logic" perspective.
.. I also don't expect it to be happening very often (I doubt people are gonna be spamming HK-Tele while they can't do it), so I figure it's not that big of a deal in the end? It just seemed like the nicer thing to do, and you are a nice guy so I thought you'd prefer it that way.
 
owellgi said:
Are you sure you didn't develop your reaction times but more just got familiar with the game, all the situations it could throw at you, and all your possible responses? (I swear I saw a chart about this a while back specifically pertaining to fighting games)

Reaction times can get better or worse depending on your stimuli, and being more familiar with the stimuli decreases reaction times of course.

Maybe my ultimate point is, that perhaps people's reaction times are not as bad as they think they are, and it's very much possible to react to very fast-to-time things like tight hitconfirms, and they just need to practise? Which really is just a roundabout way of saying git gud.
 
Mike_Z said:
Yes. And I intentionally did not do that, because then things like sliding the assist would prevent her from running away, and I am fine with her doing that.


Eh, I could go either way, but I'd sorta rather you get pasted for screwing it up. @people that play Peacock foreals?

[edit] I know people are sarcastic in response to me saying SG isn't played very well yet, but if you look at early MvC2 vs late MvC2 it's not even in the same league.
I really wouldn't want Peacock to get a fake teleport if she goes for HK teleport at a bad time. Inputting an HK teleport while an assist is out means you're not even paying attention to what you're doing (never mind what your opponent is doing), so making it something that could potentially hit the opponent or keep Peacock safe seems like it could be super frustrating to play against. I know I'd have to try hard not to go on tilt if I was playing against a Peacock who mashed HK teleport while forgetting that she had even called an assist and then got hit by it.
 
Mr Peck said:
I really wouldn't want Peacock to get a fake teleport if she goes for HK teleport at a bad time. Inputting an HK teleport while an assist is out means you're not even paying attention to what you're doing (never mind what your opponent is doing), so making it something that could potentially hit the opponent or keep Peacock safe seems like it could be super frustrating to play against. I know I'd have to try hard not to go on tilt if I was playing against a Peacock who mashed HK teleport while forgetting that she had even called an assist and then got hit by it.
That was kinda my thought process too. I'd rather she get herself hit by not paying attention then accidentally do something that can hit you.
 
Kinda bummed about the H teleport change since it does directly affect my team since I do use it with Fukua's H Drill assist to confirm into combos.

That said, I think I can live with it, though I will miss using assists to make H teleport safe.

I'm more concerned about the nerfs to her zoning, especially the damage reduction to Argus. I mean, the main reason I play Peacock is that she's a character that doesn't rely on combos for most of her big damage, and alot of that was thanks to Argus.
 
Broseidon Rex said:
Stupid solution to BB rush punch for free problem.
You know how reflect hits Marie multiple times? Apply the same logic to other characters except any hit after the first hit still has some miniscule amount of hitstop but no damage with the last hit applying the stagger effect. With Big Band's big body (alliteration), it would negate the assist if it was used after a projectile. An assist before projectile would allow peacock to get some chip damage in before having to worry about reflect.
This would majorly affect a bunch of other armored moves though, so it's probably not the best solution.
Please rip to shreds with good/obvious arguments.
*sees an argument using Marie*
*cracks knuckles*
If you played more against Marie, you would have noticed than when you deflect while she's moving forward, she's getting hit only once or twice despite her huge hurtbox.
Sure she's moving hella fast, but that makes me wonder if such a change would affect BB's 2 hits of armor. Let's say maybe.
Then you still get hit because it would still require a few frames to break his armor, so I'll keep wondering "oh crap should I deflect? Nah I might get hit, let's eat the cheap damage".
So...I guess it could work...maybe....

Oh right, Bella H LnL assist, smaller hurtbox, and moving so fast she can phase through stuff with it, never mind, see ya.
 
dekillsage said:
I find it hard to believe anyone goes
*cr.lk* oh it hit, good thing I have the reaction to confirm off it.
Err kinda late with this but in Injustice, Superman has a f2--> Breath string on block that leaves him neutral. However if it hits, on reaction you can MB breath and get a combo. It takes practice, those things exist in like every fighter everrrrr
 
d3v said:
Peacock is that she's a character that doesn't rely on combos for most of her big damage, and alot of that was thanks to Argus.
Min damage is at most 540 less. Unscaled damage is at most like 400 less, so you're not losing all that much.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
The only thing that advantage has to do with how long you have to confirm is that a move which is +100 on hit at least needs to have 100f hitstun, which is a boatload. But all of this is the hitstun, none of this the frame advantage.
If you take a move which has 100f hitstun and 95f recovery, it is +5 on hit and NOT A SINGLE SHIT harder to confirm. Note how the frame advantage got reduced by 95% AND NOTHING CHANGED. This is a slight hint at: Frame advantage doesn't matter for crap.

There is no "we're both right", you're wrong.
Frame advantage is how many frames earlier you recover compared to the opponent. Recovery is already taken into account for the number. He didn't say hitstun, he said frame advantage. You said hitstun.

So no, he's right and you're wrong for saying you weren't both saying the exact same thing.

The only problem with his explanation is that in Skullgirls a 5f normal is active on the 6th frame. So to link a 5f normal from a +5 frame advantage is impossible, and is a 1f link from +6.

In his example, the +100 move into the 5f move, you have 94f to confirm. If you started the move on frame 95, it would hit on frame 101.

The tight link one is easier to think of a heavy into a light. Assume a heavy has 22f hitstun, 8f hitstop and is +6 on hit. Sure, linking a 5f light is a 1f link but you have the additional time to hit confirm because of hitstun and hitstop.

Imagining linking a light into a light, the window to react is much tighter, but hitstop and hitstun add to the tune you have to react.
 
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In my defense i was thinking in sf4 frame data terms. Its not like normal to normal link combos are a regualr occurrence in sg (not withstanding special types of links such as launcher link to air combo or stagger link to proceeding move etc etc)


-edit... I also missed this because i wasnt listening to him before and his posting style confuses me... But:

IsaVulpes said:
The only thing that advantage has to do with how long you have to confirm is that a move which is +100 on hit at least needs to have 100f hitstun, which is a boatload. But all of this is the hitstun, none of this the frame advantage.

This is a direct contradiction. You cant have a move be +100 and not have that +100 be frame advantage. Frame advantage shows what something is, not how we arrived at the state in the first place.
 
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Let's assume a move has 3f startup, 1f active, 5f hitstun, 4f recovery but has 30f hitstop...

In theory the move is +1, but you have 1+30f to confirm off of it. So even though you wouldn't think it's easy to confirm from a 3f move that is +1, hitstop gives you additional reaction time.

I think that's what the conversation is about at the moment.
 
I think we are being a little unfair to mashing. Risk to reward in this game says mash like crazy.

Baits require very deliberate set-ups many of which we've seen a number of times, so you learn when not to mash (is anyone still falling for Squig's 2hp bait?).

But if you aren't churning butter at common combo drop points, reset points, etc... you're missing out. Getting hit by mashes isn't really reflective of anyone at this point. It's more a feature.

The thing that defines good vs bad mashers is knowing when to stop and start mashing.
 
Spencer said:
I think we are being a little unfair to mashing. Risk to reward in this game says mash like crazy.

Baits require very deliberate set-ups many of which we've seen a number of times, so you learn when not to mash (is anyone still falling for Squig's 2hp bait?).

But if you aren't churning butter at common combo drop points, reset points, etc... you're missing out. Getting hit by mashes isn't really reflective of anyone at this point. It's more a feature.

The thing that defines good vs bad mashers is knowing when to stop and start mashing.

tbh, nowadays mashing usually ends up getting me killed. At least now that I switched teams, I definitely enjoy when my opponent mashes because it's easy to avoid if you don't commit and it leads to a dead character.

When I played bella/double, yes I would mash dynamo every single time because I did not believe in double to make a comeback if my bella got killed, and it was relatively safe (not actually safe!) and changed the momentum in my favor when it worked. But this ended up getting me killed by players who knew this and would do set ups/ resets that were anti dynamo. (sonicfox, keninblack, taluda, uzu etc)

There are times where I still mash yes. With Fukua I mash drill all day, not so much because I need too but because it'll help me make decisions on when to use it in the future thanks to all the experience and information I gained from mashing it and getting punished for it. There are resets you have to mash to beat, there is no point in blocking them. So I guess that's what you meant by good/bad mashing.

Double tends to suffer from these resets, and while anti mash resets with her exist some are inconsistent or kinda unsafe to go for, so the safest option I myself would go to is throw, but the reward off throw wasn't enough a lot of the time later down the road.

Before I continue to ramble tldr: mashing is good and you need to do it or else no one will ever respect you and go crazy and the reward is very nice, but eventually it just ends up making you easier to beat if that's the only thing you go to.
 
guitalex2007 said:
I think that's what the conversation is about at the moment.
No

We weren't talking about hitstop at all and btw you are again plain wrong, as you're looking at Frame Advantage

It doesn't really surprise me that you are unable to read as well, though.

Dime_x said:
This is a direct contradiction.
It's not a contradiction at all. If you are too dumb to understand my posts that's fine, but don't try to act like I'm wrong - when it comes down to you being unable to read

I can try one last time, though I figure it still won't work
1. "Frame advantage matters for how easy/hard a confirm is" (this is what you are saying) is a factually wrong statement

2. The REASON you believe frame advantage to matter, is that high frame advantage is impossible without high hitstun (a move can't be +20 on hit without having at the very least 20f of hitstun - usually it will need 30f or more of hitstun for that), *and hitstun matters* - so a move with high frame advantage will always be easy to confirm from (because it has high hitstun! and hitstun matters!).
It would be JUST AS easy to confirm from if you dramatically increased its recovery - which would change the frame advantage, but not affect how easy it is to confirm from at all, EVIDENCING that frame advantage doesn't actually matter.

3. To give a basic example; you are trying to link into s.LP (4f startup)
Move A has 30f hitstun, 10f recovery; thus is +20 on hit (15f link)
Move B has 30f hitstun, 25f recovery; thus is +5 on hit (1f link)

- You hit with A:
Now your brain has to process that you hit with it.
You need to do so before the 26th hit-stun frame is reached (as else, you couldn't link into the 4f startup anymore),
Meaning you have 25f to recognize that you hit.

- You hit with B:
Now your brain has to process that you hit with it.
You need to do so before the 26th hit-stun frame is reached (as else, you couldn't link into the 4f startup anymore),
Meaning you have 25f to recognize that you hit.

Despite the Frame Advantage quadrupling from B to A, you have the same 25f to confirm the hit
Because Frame Advantage doesn't matter for confirms

4. To give another basic example; you are trying to link into s.LP (4f startup)
Move A has 10f hitstun, 5f recovery; thus is +5 on hit (1f link)
Move B has 100f hitstun, 95f recovery; thus is +5 on hit (1f link)

- You hit with A:
Now your brain has to process that you hit with it.
You need to do so before the 6th hit-stun frame is reached (as else, you couldn't link into the 4f startup anymore),
Meaning you have 5f to recognize that you hit.

- You hit with B:
Now your brain has to process that you hit with it.
You need to do so before the 96th hit-stun frame is reached (as else, you couldn't link into the 4f startup anymore),
Meaning you have 95f to recognize that you hit.

Despite the Frame Advantage not changing at all from A to B, the "Ease of Confirm" multiplied with factor 19
Because Frame Advantage doesn't matter for confirms

5. Hitstun+Hitstop-StartupOfTheNextMove. Note how Frame Advantage doesn't appear in this formula!

And, again, one last time: The REASON you think Frame Advantage matters is because a move with high frame advantage (say, +20 on hit) NEEDS to have high hitstun (as Frame Advantage is hitstun-recovery), really high in fact (recovery won't be zero, so "+20 on hit" is usually gonna read as something like "40f hitstun, 20f recovery", or at least "30f hitstun, 10f recovery").
Since Hitstun matters *one hell of a fuckload* for how easy/hard a confirm is, high frame advantage (which automatically means high hitstun) also "means" easy confirm.
However, THE REASON IT IS ACTUALLY EASY IS DUE TO THE MASSIVE HITSTUN.
1) If you increased the recovery of the move, the frame advantage would disappear (remember, frame advantage = hitstun-recovery; if the recovery gets higher the frame advantage gets smaller), but it wouldn't get any harder to confirm (as the hitstun stays constant, and hitstun is what actually matters)
2) If you reduced the hitstun of the move, and reduced its recovery at the same time (if you reduce both hitstun and recovery by the same number, the frame advantage stays unchanged - eg 30f hitstun/10f recovery is +20f frame advantage; both sides -5 leaves us with 25f hitstun/5f recoery, which is still +20f frame advantage), the frame advantage stays constant, but it gets harder to confirm (as the hitstun gets lower, and hitstun is what actually matters)

I wrote it for babies. If you still didn't understand, back to school with you.
 
Argus Agony's little lasers now pass through Lenny, but still push him. I expect this will not stick. :^)
Amazing. Time to come up with some cool swag combos using this that won't work tomorrow~
 
mcpeanuts said:
Amazing. Time to come up with some cool swag combos using this that won't work tomorrow~
@mcpeanuts Maybe you will like this in the mirror

This is not possible anymore.

Can't place Lenny to absorb Argus shots right before you're about to get Argus'd, enemy Argus bullets go through enemy Lenny.
 
Lem said:
Can't place Lenny to absorb Argus shots right before you're about to get Argus'd, enemy Argus bullets go through enemy Lenny.
Kind of awesome that this doesn't work anymore actually, yolo Argus when I think you're gonna do a special move is one of my tactics for the mirror.
 
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