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Valentine Combo Thread

Makross said:
Mmm... the second sHK wiffs for me. That, or the timing on this combo is too strict for my hands
disregard that it was a mess up in my settings.
 
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That looks a bit pricey, to close out a match sure but if its just for the character maybe omit scalpels and only EKG after Mortuary drop.
 
If you are in the corner you can scalpels after the mortuary drop and get a full combo, or reset after a restand if you are at full undizzy. So while your video is viable there are better options for less meter and continued corner pressure.
 
It's obviously not viable to start with this combo. Of course, someone that knows Valentine can adapt at will to make continuous corner pressure, including assists and stuff. After scalpels, you can do IAD j.MK j.HP and go for a low or throw reset after if the undizzy is full. The EKG is just a finisher to ensure the kill. If needed be, DHC can also finish, but there are few options that hit that high. (Fenrir/Tricobezoar, Dynamo, SSJ(not sure but probably works because BB is dirty), Parasoul's Shot, Double Car, Squig's sing/level 3, etc).
 
After dynamo, the next hit pops undizzy. It goes directly from stage 3 to stage 5.

edit: Also, the timing to DHC and keep the enemy in the corner is really strict. It has to be in the first active frame from the last EKG hit, before Val crosses the enemy.
 
Just grind it out a bit, it's not a hard DHC.

You can still follow up the Dynamo with another OTG Dynamo into DHC if you really wanna kill. (or you could reset more and earlier)
 
just hit the punches at the same time your last EKG hit connects. You have the beeps to guide you. If you don't need the damage, you can also dhc a bit earlier and just not hit with the final EKG hit but ensure that they're still in the corner(which is more important than whatever damage the last hit does[unless it would kill, of course])
 
What's the highest damaging CH corner combo anyone can think of? That starts off of c.lk or c.HP and without meter.

I can reach 6-6.5k but I'm asking because I think it would be useful if there was a CH combo for punishes that did a lot of damage and ended in a s.HK(3) hard knockdown for oki incase it doesn't kill.

-------

Also I'm in the process of writing up a Valentine guide since Dagwood removed/hid his one. His one was informative but I feel it would be outdated now unless he updated it while it's hidden.

I have the following sections so far:

Gameplay Objectives
Team comp & assists
Normals/Specials
Supers
Resets
Combos

I'm targeting the guide towards SG noobs (but not new to FGs) and SG players who already know how to play.
I'm not going to target new FG players because I feel then I have to spend more time teaching how to play SG rather than Valentine and I'd rather get into the parts about her rather than explain the shit you can find in the tutorial or 10 minutes in training mode.
 
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I can't remember how much it did, something around the high 8k region. I was doing it after burst bait set ups.

j.hp, cr.hp,
j.hp AD, j.mp(2), j.hp
j.mk, j.hp
j.lp, j.mp(1), j.hp
s.hk(2) xx lk bypass
s.lp(3),s.mp, s.hp xx hk bypass
cr.lk(2), s.mp(2), cr.mk, s.hp xx hk bypass xx ekg flatliner

Still does 8k without the jump in. The s.lp is meant to sace the otg, you might be able to do s.hk(3) and still save the otg but thats just a guess. Pretty sure it works on everyone other than Big Band and Double.
 
Where does it fail to hit BB and Double?
I'm at college now and I want to test this out.

Also, has anyone seem somebody do -j.hp xx H Bypass s.hk(x2~3) xx L Bypass s.lp- chain on a real match?
 
The opponent needs to be in the air when you do s.hk so that , after the lk bypass wall bounce, you can have enough time to s.lp before they land on the ground. If they get to restand they will wall bounce too low and waste the otg. That's my experience with it, but it might work if I put more time into it.
 
Try changing the two j.HP on the second chain for j.HK. It may deal less damage, but might work.
When I get time to do it I'll try.
 
in corner on everyone, c.HP j.HP xx qcf HK, c.MK c.HP, j.LP j.HP adf j.MP(2) j.HP, j.MK(2) delay j.HP, j.LK j.MP(2) j.HP, LP LP LP c.LK LK s.MP MP c.MK s.HP xx qcf HK xx Flatliner. 8.7k with meter, 7.5k without.

c.LK counterhit on lights, you're not going to get much extra, I just do the ezmode jump loop into ground series- c.LK c.MK c.HP j.HP adf j.MP(2) j.HP, j.LK j.MP(1) j.HP, j.MK(2) j.HP, j.LP j.MP(2) j.HP, LP LP LP c.LK LK s.MP MP c.MK s.HP xx qcf HK xx Flatliner. 7k with meter, 5.9k without.

Midscreen vs lights you don't get much anything extra either as far as I know off of light counterhit.

However, on heavies off c.LK counter hit, midscreen you can get the ground series followup off of the combo Duck uses - c.LK c.MK c.HP, slight delay j.HP, adf slight delay j.MP(3) j.HP, slight delay c.HP, j.HK adf j.MK delay j.HP, j.LP j.MP j.HP, LP LP LP c.LK LK s.MP MP c.MK s.HP xx qcf HK xx Flatliner. 7k with meter, 5.9k without.

On heavies in the corner, you can get c.LK c.MK c.HP j.HP xx qcf HK, c.MK c.HP, j.LP j.HP adf j.MP(2) j.HP, j.MK(2) delay j.HP, LP LP LP c.LK LK s.MP MP c.MK s.HP xx qcf HK xx Flatliner. 7.4k damage with meter, 6.4k without.
 
Colossi said:
Try changing the two j.HP on the second chain for j.HK. It may deal less damage, but might work.
When I get time to do it I'll try.

You do the j.hp in order to fall faster than your opponent, the j.hp does a horizontal launch and pulls you downward, replacing it with j.hk would keep you at the same level as them and you wouldn't have close to enough time to do the link into s.hk.
 
ashxu said:
Also I'm in the process of writing up a Valentine guide since Dagwood removed/hid his one. His one was informative but I feel it would be outdated now unless he updated it while it's hidden.

Yeah i took mine down because it was outdated.. I kept getting messages saying the combos hit undizzy now and stuff. Plus Omni was making a guide i thought, but I guess he stopped. If you want any help with your guide let me know.
 
Camail said:
You do the j.hp in order to fall faster than your opponent, the j.hp does a horizontal launch and pulls you downward, replacing it with j.hk would keep you at the same level as them and you wouldn't have close to enough time to do the link into s.hk.
Meh, tried doing j.HK xx IAD j.MP(2) j.HP. Works on lights, but s.hk(x2) becomes harder to hit.
Go on a diet, Double, ffs.
 
Camail said:
The opponent needs to be in the air when you do s.hk so that , after the lk bypass wall bounce, you can have enough time to s.lp before they land on the ground. If they get to restand they will wall bounce too low and waste the otg. That's my experience with it, but it might work if I put more time into it.

or if you used double butt ehehehe
 
whyyyy even bother with these fancypants s.HK qcf LK, s.LP them just before they recover combos? they're only slightly more damaging(sometimes) for significantly more effort
 
ClarenceMage said:
whyyyy even bother with these fancypants s.HK qcf LK, s.LP them just before they recover combos? they're only slightly more damaging(sometimes) for significantly more effort

Because when you play better players if that slight increase in damage is the difference between killin' their girl or getting reversaled and your girl killed, you want it.

Also epeen
 
If you want to gamble on getting the character specific manual timing right on the combo for an extra +100 damage, be my guest.

I'm just gonna sit here with my consistent combos that do great damage and are practically impossible to drop offline, so that I can focus more on resets or neutral game.
 
I don't even bother trying to learn seriously those combos. I mean, they are damaging and stuff, but hell, they are impractical.
I like to break Val's damage limit, tho.
 
I was gonna be a total douchebag, but I'll play nice.

1. These combos aren't hard, even by sf4 combo standards my CH combo is pretty easy.
2. Knowing advanced chains allows you to vary the tempo of your combos and make resets more unpredictable. It allows you to have more reset points, and you can NEVER have enough reset points.
3. Optimal combos can mean the difference between a dead character and an alive character. Or having to spend 1 meter vs 2 meters. This kind of efficiency becomes absolutely crucial in a game where characters can die so easily. Not respecting this efficiency is tantamount to not understanding the stakes of the game.

The only reason to not learn these combos is because you don't think you will be able to do them, but that's why we have a thing called lab time. Duckator has combos that only he does, all the top players do. They innovate, and they are rewarded because of the points I have just made. You can ignore them and keep doing your stale bnb for the 100th time, but don't act like that's a good thing, or pass off new, harder combos as a worthless endeavor.

tldr;
git gud
 
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Honestly Val current combos is very forgiving, even the optimized ones. They used to nearly 20-30 seconds long not counting the next 1-2 characters continuation on it.
 
Camail said:
tldr;
git gud

Your piece of shit hard-for-the-sake-of-hard corner c.HP Counter Hit combo does 8.2k with meter, requires character specific timings on every character it does work on and straight up doesn't work on two characters.

My braindead easy character universal undroppable corner c.HP Counter HIt combo does 8.7K with meter, is the same timing on every character it works on, and WORKS ON EVERYONE, with the exception of double but easily fixed by doing the following: otg with c.LK instead of c.MK for consistency, and swap the order of [j.LK j.MP j.HP] and [j.MK j.HP] strings.

ps. What you said about reset points is fimble theories, and completely inapplicable to the s.HK s.HK xx Bypass, s.LP pickup combo. What extra reset point are you going to get off of s.HK s.HK? Body bag? A+ reset option there. Reset point at s.LP? that's just a fkn low/throw that you can get off of any point during the jump series, but with a jump series you could also do a high if you wanted.

tumblr_n5jez1F4fb1rhcjjko1_1280.png
 
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Ok so a big chunk of this post got lost so I'll summarize without all the fluff:
You didn't do my combo, it does 8767 damage or 8299 without the first j.hp.
With damage actually being similar, my combo has corner carry and yours does not because you need to wall bounce early.
Even if I'm being a tad condescending I think we can refrain from useless name calling, all it does is escalate the situation.

Now back to the original post:

Did you notice I used general plural terms in my post? I mean, if you have anyhing to say about the general principles I stated I'm all ears, but so far you have given me nothing to work with.

Though I feel like there is some subtelty in the low/throw mix up that you aren't recognizing. The timing in between the lk bypass and s.lp is unique, and when an opponent is gauging your reset points this weird interaction between the two moves (of doing the restand) adds to the mix up quite a bit, and being able to have another unique timing for a legitimate 50/50 is a lot stronger than you make it out to be. And unless your high also catches prejump its functionally the same as a low/throw because you are still making them choose between upback and downback.

But then again, thats more about resets than combos, the strongest point I have is still the fact that these combos are easy. They are short and have at most two or three challenging links that take a bit of practice to learn. I don't think we are gonna get passed that.
 
Camail said:
Ok so a big chunk of this post got lost so I'll summarize without all the fluff:
You didn't do my combo, it does 8767 damage or 8299 without the first j.hp.

You know Camail, you could've saved yourself from digging yourself that hole by noticing that you posted your combo doing 8k, then I posted later saying it does 8.2k. You could've realised that maybe I did do the combo to try it out to get that number. Maybe you thought I pulled that number out of nowhere? Maybe you didn't read my post. In any case, I'm going to be generous. Here is both your and my combos, both starting with j.HP Counter hit.


Yours does 8.7k. Mine does 9.1k

Yours is finnicky with character specific delays, and doesn't work on two... no wait, I just tested it, it doesn't work on Parasoul, Bella, Double, OR Big Band in the corner, so yours is purely a counterhit combo for light characters. Mine is consistent with no changes for any character, except with double you just replace a normal and swap two strings around.

My combo is strictly superior in regards to both optimisation, practicality and character universality as a corner heavy counter hit combo.

Regarding corner carry, your combo does work if you're halfscreen away from the corner, but only if you do [j.MK j.HP] dash jump [j.LP j.MP j.HP] since otherwise it doesn't work. At 2/5ths away from the corner it works the same, your HCH combo is probably best against lights at that very specific range. I will stick to the Duck or [j.HP j.HK adf j.MP(2) j.HK] combos, since while they do less damage, they work perfectly fine all of midscreen, don't require dashjumps, and have better reset points. I used to use dashjumps in my previous bnb, wasn't fun, required focus on execution in the middle of combos which in an ideal world you don't want.

At 1/5th away from the corner, my combo(+double variant) still works on every single character in the game.

Now, onto the topic of resets.

Reset points are not important if you want a burst bait punish counter hit combo, which is what you said the primary use your combo had. You want fat stacks of damage to make them die, since ideally every single burst bait should result in a dead character. The best time to reset on a counter hit is if they already had plenty of undizzy on them already. In that case, counter hit specific combos don't really matter and you can go into whatever combo/reset sequence you want appropriate to their undizzy.

You're not wrong about s.LP->Low/Throw being a strong, subtle reset. I use it all the time. In my combo that I posted, which has exactly as many s.LP points as your combo: One. The timing might be unique but who cares, it's the same "oh he's going to do s.LP now i wonder what he's going to do next" situation... The situation which exists in both combos. You would have a point if you showed me a reset that specifically used the spacing that combo created, plus an assist, to achieve some grimy left-right shenanigans.

Camail said:
unless your high also catches prejump its functionally the same as a low/throw because you are still making them choose between upback and downback.

You are over-simplifying the situation by looking at only the opponent's defensive options in broad strokes. Let's just assume the opponent has their back to the corner in this hypothetical situation and they are at your mercy.

What happens when you land a low starter:
- Beats upback, back, buttons and throw tech
- Unscaled combo starter
- Opponent wants to look for lows, starts wanting to block low
- On a successfully blocked low starter, you may go for tick throws, frametraps, reset pressure by using an assist to cover your negative frames on your heavier buttons. You might go for an IAD after or a jump-in, but only really pheasible with Filia, Big Band, someone that can make you eat a high STUPIDLY quickly. Val can actually do this with backdash airdash(henceforth dubbed BDAD) and do gross j.HP crossups etc, but that's execution heavy and not THAT fast. Especially not after her c.LK, which is -4 and has more overall frames than c.LP. Do it from c.LP however and it's legit, since c.LP has low overall frames and is +7(!!).
- Oh yeah, if you know they're gonna be blocking low you don't have to do a negative on block low, you can do a plus on block normal and do frametraps/mixups that work better with frame advantage.

What happens when you land a throw starter:
- Beats downback, back, buttons
- Scaled combo starter
- Opponent wants to either tech throws or upback more
- On an upbacked throw, you have a lot of recovery time, can't call assists, can't do anything. They could, in theory, straight up punish you on a correct read with a huge counter hit combo, but more realistically you just eat an updo/pillar to the face, with possible conversion if they can confirm.
- On a teched throw, you are at +1, which is not too significant but it's still something. The situation is essentially neutral-ish but their back is still to the corner, you can both call assists at the same time if you wanted, make some reads.

What happens when you land a high starter(EDIT: This is assuming it's a jumping starter.):
- Beats downback, buttons, throw tech
- Unscaled combo starter, more time to confirm than usual
- Opponent wants to look for airdashes since they CAN be reacted easier than low/throws, starts to want to block high and upback
- On a successfully blocked high, like from an instant airdash that Val has, you can then go into high-low-throw again with greater ease than if they blocked a low, since you can act right after you land, and if you jump-in with a heavy normal they have to eat heaps of blockstun. This lets you set up things like empty airdashes, with IAD throw to trick their reactions into blocking high, before landing with a low.

Your understanding of resets is under-developed and tries to reduce it into pure guesses in the exact moment the opponent is about to take damage. Mixups don't have to be pure guesses. Some good mixups are, but REALLY strong mixups are ones that bait the opponent into committing to one form of defense early. In the case of IAD throw->low, you are baiting them into blocking high, since IADs CAN be reacted to, and then you hit them with a low as they're committed to blocking high to get the unscaled damage. This isn't a 50/50. This is a reaction bait, something outside the realm of pure guessing.

Your understanding of high/low being functionally identical to low/throw is oversimplified and narrow-minded since it does NOT take into account what happens if your opponent successfully defends your reset option, how to abuse the fact your opponent is GOOD at defense, and post-defense mixup options.
 
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Way to enhance the community guys. I think i should mention that camail's combo (or at least height variations of the lk bypass part) definitely works on parasoul and bella. Also you can get Hkx3 on most of the cast.
 
Prototype said:
Way to enhance the community guys.

Did you just not to read what I posted? Disagreeing with someone on game-related issues isn't bad for a community, especially when you have to write reasons why you think you are right and prove why you think you are right. You develop and post knowledge.

Prototype said:
I think i should mention that camail's combo (or at least height variations of the lk bypass part) definitely works on parasoul and bella. Also you can get Hkx3 on most of the cast.

Footage pls, because doing the combo as written restands them at the [j.LP j.MP j.HP] loop, not letting you preserve your otg for the second ground series the combo requires.
 
ClarenceMage said:
Your piece of shit hard-for-the-sake-of-hard corner c.HP...
I read the posts. Disagreeing isn't what that comment was toward, it was in regard to that overall condescending tone of the discussion. By all means I wan't everyone to 'git gud' the hostility though can be very off-putting to new and current members so especially with our already small player base we need to be cautious of that. Even if the information is sound it can still make people deaf to it, that's how arguments happen in the first place.

As for the footage I'll try and get to that in a little while. I'll show the one I usually do with 3hk but like I said I know that a height variant works for sure but I haven't tried changing the pace on that one in particular.
 
Prototype said:
Disagreeing isn't what that comment was toward, it was in regard to that overall condescending tone of the discussion.
Camail said:
I was gonna be a total douchebag, but I'll play nice.
tldr;
git gud

Yeah, escalating the situation was pretty petty on my part, but I'm not going to just hold fake politeness and git gud, especially by someone whose claims don't hold up to basic maths.

I like the Cerebella variant of that combo, the damage is actually respectable on that one(9k at equal ratio), try to record your combos on a 1.0x damage multiplier(1v1, 2v2, 3v2) so that we can see the damage values without accounting for team size. Now the only problem is coming up with a variant that works on Double & Big Band.
 
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