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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Swiftfox-Dash said:
Ninja Nutria said it takes too long just 3 or so posts above yours =p
The question and response didn't mention the adc aerial to fastfall
 
Welp I'm trying it now and it doesn't seem to be possible. Maybe if the airthrow is super low to the ground? Nahhh I doubt it.
 
Dagwood said:
it does work midscreen, and in the corner just cut out the jmk

Thx. I4got to mention it was a corner problem. And yes, I'm well aware of the other combo routes on her but why should a new double player have to experience trying it in a match and dying for it because it didn't work?
 
how about we take away hb inv , and give luger shot 1 hit of armour
 
dekillsage said:
Thx. I4got to mention it was a corner problem. And yes, I'm well aware of the other combo routes on her but why should a new double player have to experience trying it in a match and dying for it because it didn't work?

Before you fix that, fix my air-combos not working on Double in the corner pls.
 
Jason said:
Before you fix that, fix my air-combos not working on Double in the corner pls.

make a video on it? cuz idk what combo you're talking about
 
Jason said:
Before you fix that, fix my air-combos not working on Double in the corner pls.
j.mk > j.hp loops work fine in the corner. You just do less hits of j.mk and even with less hits, I still can get 8k on double.
 
Here's an idea:
What if Cerebellas instant j.HP wasn't an overhead?

Reasoning: It hits from the sides, not from above so it kinda makes sense
More importantly, it's a 19f overhead (This is pretty fast!) that can be applied from a range where merry-go-rilla would be expected to whiff, meaning you can't really trust Cerebellas options to be weighted in any meaningful way depending on her spacing (Surely this is the reason for mgr whiffing at close range to begin with)

There is precedent for this with Elizas j.lk, Filias new j.hk, Fukuas j.HK etc, and she would still have access to j.LP > j.HP for fuzzy guard stuff.


How about it
 
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zeknife said:
There is precedent for this with Elizas j.lk, Filias new j.hk, Fukuas j.HK etc, and she would still have access to j.LP > j.HP for fuzzy guard stuff.
I was already skeptic when we talked about it, but now, you're straight up stupid in your argumentation :
eliza j.lk is kinda twice faster, fukua j.hk is a 8f dive kick cancellable into fireball in case you get chicken blocked, and filia j.hk gives combo air to air midscreen just in case you tried to upback it, and bella j.hp doesn't hit all crouching chars, and most crouching chars can only get hit by it at specific distances that are different from point blank.

Maybe it requires a nerf (spoiler : I don't think so but who cares), but you're not going to convince many people with such comparisons.
 
I suppose! But the similarity is that those buttons are still useful for other purposes despite not being instant overheads, much like j.HP would be.
 
Okay, let's see about these...

- I don't actually mind Cere j.HP not being an overhead. Mostly you get it as a reset accidentally when you screw up j.LP mash anyway, she pretty much doesn't use it as an instant overhead so I am not sure anyone would even notice if I did it and didn't say anything. :^P
- OKAY I can fix that Legion thing!
- Yeah okay we'll try regular MK with no invin first. You could not OTG combo off the new MK bomber anyway without meter.
- I don't mind upping min damage on car, actually. I didn't realize it was that low.
- Cat heads is not getting improved for restands.
- I'm okay with making Double's c.HP into Fukua's, complete with damage nerf and extra vulnerable areas in exchange for faster recover and larger hitboxes...
- Monster-grab move down frames for Double would actually work fairly okay for Break the Law, and they were already cleaned up. Hmm. Monster grab...

Swiftfox-Dash said:
I feel like I might get scolded for saying this, but I am not a fan Peacock's changes so far. The fullscreen gun confirm into lenny then super is nice, but I don't see myself really going for that unless it will win me the round. Wasting two bars for a chance to get a single mixup in or do a 7K combo (or a bit over 8.5K if I use a third bar and so on) hardly seems worth it in most situations. Maybe I just need to mess with it a bit more but not feeling it yet.
Argus by itself does basically the same damage now. So you lost airthrow full combo (but you can still put them a full screen away with j.MK Argus) / teleport+assist / triple Argus / plus on block George, you keep fullscreen confirms for on average MORE damage at 1 bar since the Argus damage is from the big laser now, and you gain confirms with more damage from 2 bars at any distance or off a throw plus the chance to build meter with your combo rather than spend it.
I guess I don't see what you don't like, unless you disagree with the nerfs specifically. ?
 
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i'm sorry but what is this "break the law" and "monster-grab" things?
 
Break the Law was Eddie's special where he turns into a puddle. It'd be a nice low-profile thing for Double, who is already kind of a be-passive-and-move-around-things character.

monster grab is an unused grab animation that Double had, but was replaced because they liked the pushblock animation and console memory limits made it difficult (I think). The first half is her turning into a puddle (which is what gave me the idea) and the second half is a giant dragon mouth coming out of the ground and eating someone.
 
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I like the idea of new moves for Double.
 
Mike_Z said:
- I don't actually mind Cere j.HP not being an overhead. Mostly you get it as a reset accidentally when you screw up j.LP mash anyway, she pretty much doesn't use it as an instant overhead so I am not sure anyone would even notice if I did it and didn't say anything. :^P
I do this a lot actually, but I'm sure I can find alternatives.
 
Can we add hurtboxes to Double's j.HP and bombers?

And make Cymbal Crash mid?
 
I want to hear from mike about it.
 
Her j.hp has hurtboxes already. Why do you want to nerf a midtier characters best overall tool?
 
Dime_x said:
Why do you want to nerf a character's best overall tool?

You can say the same about fortune and she still got fiber nerfed.
 
tumblr_lzlj8v8N7X1qanw3wo1_500.gif

zato-breakthelaw.gif

@Arcana
 
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worldjem said:
You can say the same about fortune and she still got fiber nerfed.

Not when you dont change the quote.

Fiber was nerfed originally when fortune was s-tier. And if you recall i was never a proponent of headless fiber getting invincibility nerfed. But that was still nerfing a higher tier character to mid tier.

The change you are suggesting would be nerfing a barely midtier currently, character, into a god knows what, bad character.

J.hp is obnoxious and annoying but it is about all double has for good neutral. So if j.hp gets nerfed then compensate double in some other way, like a tri jump or an airdash or a lp shot that isnt duckable etc etc.

But just a nerf with no regards to anything else isnt good when we talk about midtier and lower characters imho.
 
Spencer said:
@Lem

But what you are missing is that DC loses cleanly to just about every other reset which is why you aren't seeing it mashed out a ton except out of desperation. I watch Elda games fairly religiously, and I can't think of a single time he's used it. I watch other top tier PWs too, and pretty much the same thing. That's not to say they don't, but it is hardly the panacea of reversal options that you are implying.
So like, I'm pretty sure Taluda used Deathcrawl multiple times vs Kenin and Sev. But whatever, it even led to Diamond Dynamo double snaps.

Spencer said:
At the very, very least we are talking apples and oranges since neither DC nor bomber really counter anything the other does counter outside of throws. Keeping in mind also... that one costs meter which isn't easy for PW to come by.
Put her second then. I always have meter when I play Pw.
Also don't play her solo.

Spencer said:
Similarly, car can punish pushing buttons at any height on the screen except the very top as well as coming from either side making it also more useful in some situations that DC.
What the fuck.
If it's low to the ground as a reset car usually still loses, they will land and block.
If it's in neutral why even spend a bar to counter a very obvious telegraphed jump in, just H Luger.

Spencer said:
I'm still mostly just responding to the idea that PW, Val, etc. have reversal options while Double doesn't, which is patently false.

You seem to think that I'm saying bomber is fucking amazing, which I'm not. Like I've said above, I really have no issue with point Double taking a reversal buff. I'm 'meh' on it entirely. My only concern is any buff to a move is also a buff to its use as an assist which I'm generally opposed to when it comes to reversal assists.

DC, EKG, Burserker barrage, Gregor, etc, they all beat lows, throws, command overheads, and other things clean. They also have hitstop, when you try and dash back in to maintain pressure or move forward, you risk getting hit with unreactable invincible moves, it's no 2LK (No risk of being counter hit or frame trapped), it's invincible.

Car stops:
- Jump ins that are really high in the air with Long recovery, sometimes.

Also did you just imply the reversal buff to LK butt was a buff to the assist?
Im so done replying.
 
Dime_x said:
Not when you dont change the quote.

Fiber was nerfed originally when fortune was s-tier. And if you recall i was never a proponent of headless fiber getting invincibility nerfed. But that was still nerfing a higher tier character to mid tier.

The change you are suggesting would be nerfing a barely midtier currently, character, into a god knows what, bad character.

J.hp is obnoxious and annoying but it is about all double has for good neutral. So if j.hp gets nerfed then compensate double in some other way, like a tri jump or an airdash or a lp shot that isnt duckable etc etc.

But just a nerf with no regards to anything else isnt good when we talk about midtier and lower characters imho.

It doesn't matter what tier either of them are or were. The point is that they are (or in fortune's case "was") one-dimensional characters because the move is that good that there's no point in using anything else (for fortune it was a good defensive move, for double it's a good offensive move). Every move double does is technically part of her body, so if we're going with that rule, it should have hurtboxes along with every other one of double's moves.

I'm not saying "don't give double buffs elsewhere" I'm saying those moves should have hurtboxes.

Also, you're calling it a nerf like it's the end of the world. Like I'm saying "make her j.HP 1 hit with 5f of stun and she gets 20f ground recov if the move is blocked."
Adding hurtboxes doesn't change the utility of the move, it just makes it able to trade with stuff and be reliably AA'd by more than like 2 characters. It doesn't reduce the range or the pressure you get from it. Hell, you could even do the thing like Bella 5MP where the initial hitbox is disjointed, but it has hurtboxes afterward.
Quit overreacting.

You want me to suggest a buff for double? Fine. How about Luger M bounce?
 
worldjem said:
I'm not saying "don't give double buffs elsewhere" I'm saying those moves should have hurtboxes.


The above statement is all that really matters. If you nerf a low tier characters tool because it causes them to be one dimensional, then you need to compensate in some other area (THAT GIVES A NET BUFF AS GOOD AS THE NERF WAS BAD) so you need to give double something for her neutral that covers the change of such a good neutral tool, into a more mediocre one.

Luger m bounce is actually a decent idea imho. But it would depend on the bounce angle.
 
zeknife said:
What if Cerebellas instant j.HP wasn't an overhead?

Reasoning: It hits from the sides, not from above so it kinda makes sense
More importantly, it's a 19f overhead (This is pretty fast!) that can be applied from a range where merry-go-rilla would be expected to whiff, meaning you can't really trust Cerebellas options to be weighted in any meaningful way depending on her spacing (Surely this is the reason for mgr whiffing at close range to begin with)

There is precedent for this with Elizas j.lk, Filias new j.hk, Fukuas j.HK etc, and she would still have access to j.LP > j.HP for fuzzy guard stuff.
Certain moves look like they'd behave certain ways, but they don't. It's just a thing. Try not to think about it too hard.

19f overhead is not really that fast. All you have to do is hold back on reaction to her jumping. Not being able to react to j.hp means you can't reaction block cerecopter.

MGR whiffing at close range shouldn't come into play when considering j.hp. MGR is basically unreactable, and is hit-invulnerable. j.hp gets smacked out by even standing lights (unless you're like +12), and most (if not all) mashable reversals even if you tried it during incredibly plus pressure strings. j.hp < hold back/airborne/mash anything. MGR < hold up/well timed invulnerable reversal.

Eliza's j.lk is 11 frames (as an instant attack), 1 more than MGR, but leads to an unscaled combo, with little relative commitment. Filia's j.hk was 17f, a bit tougher than Bella's j.hp to react to, but could be made super ambiguous which side it was on, and would also knockdown vs airborne opponents for a full followup combo (Bella's j.hp vs air, of course, doesn't give a combo unless they're in the corner). Fukua's j.hk leads to a full combo if it connects regardless. And if it hit overhead, it'd be a 13f overhead. And if it counterhit, it'd be a full HCH combo every time all day every day, whereas even Filia's j.hk could eat up a ground bounce.

So. I personally don't think it's a problem, no.

dragonos451 said:
I was already skeptic when we talked about it, but now, you're straight up stupid in your argumentation
Don't be insulting. It doesn't make you sound better by shitting on someone. Though... I'm sure quite a few people on this board could take those words to heart.

Mike_Z said:
- I don't actually mind Cere j.HP not being an overhead. Mostly you get it as a reset accidentally when you screw up j.LP mash anyway, she pretty much doesn't use it as an instant overhead so I am not sure anyone would even notice if I did it and didn't say anything. :^P
Hey no please I use it as an actual intentional overhead all the time. I don't like changing things just for the sake of changing things.
 
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If you were to nerf j.hp (and that nerf would be particularly harsh), she'd need some pretty sizable compensation elsewhere.
 
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that nerf wouldn't really be that harsh unless you played solo bella
I'm sorry zidiane, only low/throw for you. shoot me
 
Fukua is actually really overpowered mike! Not sure if you want an explanation on why or not
 
I've yet to fight a Fukua that's made me go "Damn, this character is broken". Mostly it's just "Oh yeah, I still don't know what she does". Would be open to hearing why she's so good.
 
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Hilary said:
Do we put hurtboxes on luger bullets because those are technically flesh too?
beavis-and-butthead-breaking-the-law-o.gif

nah fuck the law
 
Hilary said:
Do we put hurtboxes on luger bullets because those are technically flesh too?
Oh, hey, wait, so you're saying I should have been Devil Horn'ing Luger shots this whole time? Or fullscreen Excellebella? Mike pls
 
I hear this exploding/fire-setting barrel thing so often I'm amazed it isn't in the game already.
 
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