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Skullgirls PC Beta Updates Discussion

Negus Eyoel said:
i mean if it doesn't really do what i want it to do though perhaps i'm just better off picking up another assist instead of trying to adjust to an assist that i don't really like


If it doesnt do what you want it to do, then I'd definitely suggest dropping it for something that does do what you want it to do. Which is why i have beat extend on my team and not pillar or updo.

I was simply giving an alternate way of looking at things instead of the doom and gloom. If people agree with me thats fine, if they dont, thats fine as well. I was just saying that its utility as a midrange get in tool (with invincibility) may well still be very much intact.
 
cloudKing211 said:
By dp are you implying that mk bomber would be called as a reversal? Bc mk bomber would trade alot so if an opponent was using it as a reversal, you would see it trade alot more than you think, down back bomber works just like down back copter, butchers blade, hairball, etc. The few frames or so of invul is what would sometimes screw people over. This does not make it a dp, but the invul being removed would have been better than this change imo
Bomber has magical hitboxes that dodge everything though
 
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There already wasn't a point to use mk bomber when fukua drill is better. This change just confirmed my decision to drop double was a good one.

The idea that the assist did everything makes no sense to me when drill and beat extend exist and are better than mk bomber.(and those assists are on better characters)
 
3488044-and-so-it-begins-o.gif

How long I have awaited for this day.
 
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lol I see you'd rather fight fukua than double~
 
dekillsage said:
lol I see you'd rather fight fukua than double~
Depends on the team,

but I'd rather fighter Val/Fillia/Fukua than Val/Fillia/Double, yeah.
 
Out of curiosity, what do Double players even want? Like, specifically.
 
I don't really agree with this change, but I still think it's funny how Mike removing a central part of Peacock's gameplan and butchering things about her in every other aspect results in like five posts of "Yeah okay, he completely changed the character, I'm sure it's fine" .. but as soon as he touches MK.Bomber assist, America readies itself for another war.
 
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RemiKz said:
Out of curiosity, what do Double players even want? Like, specifically.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb...A1_pistol.jpg/180px-800px-M1911_A1_pistol.jpg

One of these

The feeding ramp is polished to a mirror sheen, the slide's been reinforced, and the interlock with the frame is tightened for added precision. The sight system is original, too, the thumb safety is extended to make it
easier on the finger, a long-type trigger with non-slip grooves, a ring hammer... The base of the trigger guard's been filed down for a higher grip, and not only that, nearly every part of this gun has been expertly crafted and
customized. Give double this gun.
 
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I'd fund it
 
IsaVulpes said:
I don't really agree with this change, but I still think it's funny how Mike removing a central part of Peacock's gameplan and butchering things about her in every other aspect results in like five posts of "Yeah okay, he completely changed the character, I'm sure it's fine" .. but as soon as he touches MK.Bomber assist, America readies itself for another war.
Yes. Because they are completely different characters, one has been considered great since the beginning of encore, the other mediocre. One can deal tons of damage fullscreen as well as up close, while the other only up close and still less than the formers retail version. One has tools that all function for a variety of situations whereas doubles are very limited to situational use.

Also yeah. Peacock has a better gun
 
Zidiane said:
Auto pilotable, from what I think i understand, being dp lock down hybrid. It doesnt seem like you have to really make any decisions both when picking an assist and using it. It's a dp when you need it, and a lock down tool every other time. With the crouching mk bomber thing, before it seemed like you didn't have to worry at all, just call bomber and it'll do what you want.

Or something. I don't know what yaya suggested, and I can only guess at mikes intentions (until he comes over here and tells me how wrong I am).
and now it's lockdown got nerfed but reversal got buffed

so... it just got worse now. It was mainly used for lockdown, it being an usable reversal was just a bonus. I used Updo anyway for reversal assist because I realized MK Bomber trades or gets bopped half the time.
 
ashxu said:
........... I used Updo anyway for reversal assist because I realized MK Bomber trades or gets bopped half the time.
This is generally signs of move that is not useful, or used as a reversal
 
It's going to be a day until you get a serious reply Remikz

Double buff/nerf results in making players use LK/MK Bomber if you want it for defense or HK for offense. Before, since MK would trade at worst, it was the obvious choice for getting the most bang for your buck and you get a lot of mileage from it. Point Double improves while your Double assist choice makes you choose between defense or offense with this experiment.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
I don't really agree with this change, but I still think it's funny how Mike removing a central part of Peacock's gameplan and butchering things about her in every other aspect results in like five posts of "Yeah okay, he completely changed the character, I'm sure it's fine" .. but as soon as he touches MK.Bomber assist, America readies itself for another war.

QFT

Like 100% T from start to finish this post is in need of more than a like which is why I'm making up content for this post to excuse a QFT because lmao
 
RemiKz said:
Out of curiosity, what do Double players even want? Like, specifically.

In my opinion, all I really wanted with Double is a functional, multi-situation-applicable reversal. Her supers are currently good reversal options BUT have glaring weaknesses that can be easily worked around to constantly bait them while still maintaining pressure on double. LK Bomber, if it was invul up to the first active frame, even if it couldn't be canceled into super, would be exactly what she needed to Not get completely pwned and shat on the moment she's made to block a heap of shit and doesn't have a DP assist to mash and her back isn't to the corner. Even if it was completely punishable if baited, it would at least be -something to do-.

I am not being hyperbolic or exaggerating - unless the Double player makes fantastic reads against pressure and pushblocks/pbgcs at a very high level, picks EXTREMELY smart spots to reversal super(or has a safe dhc), and/or the person doing the offense is kinda average, then she is effective boned if made to block. Against players who have Double as a key part of their team, I will snap in double and have complete confidence in my ability to land a hit within the assist lockout period. As Double, the only reason I survive snaps/pressure/assisted pressure is if the other players pressure sucks and I've got good defense.

Remove the invul from MK bomber, give it to LK bomber, keep everything else the same and double would be a pretty well rounded character with some weaknesses in pressure and raw mixups from pressure by herself without using cat heads but with great resets/oki/space control/teleport mixup with assist to make up for it. At the moment, not having a consistent reversal is too harsh of a weakness when other characters have great mixups/resets/pressure in addition to multiple consistent reversal options.
 
ClarenceMage said:
multi-situation-applicable reversal

Join the club.

Adding a reversal to a character that doesn't have one is no small thing. Why shouldn't PW get a reversal or Val or Squigs (a better one anyway) or Fukua? Double actually has a better choice than any of those I mentioned. Why does she need a better one?

I'm all for giving everyone a reversal option... but mostly because it would disproportionately benefit me.
 
Spencer said:
Join the club.

Adding a reversal to a character that doesn't have one is no small thing. Why shouldn't PW get a reversal or Val or Squigs (a better one anyway) or Fukua? Double actually has a better choice than any of those I mentioned. Why does she need a better one?

I'm all for giving everyone a reversal option... but mostly because it would disproportionately benefit me.

Painwheel has enough reversal options. I never feel helpless with painwheel as I do with Double. If you have 3 frames free, slightly charged c.LP/s.LP chained into c.LK/s.LK is absolutely fantastic, death crawl beats point blank non-throw resets, air buer thresher is a ridiculously good air reversal/armour cancel super.

Val has better reversal options than Double because of 1. EKG beating every mixup option point blank 2. Counter getting huge damage on correct read.

Fukua has her super uppercut which is super great.
 
Now that I think about it, s.MP bringing the opponent down may be an indirect buff to Valentine's lvl2 because sometimes if you counter an IAD move, they are in a weird position that is difficult to follow off after. Of course the combo will be scaled to shit but it's a convert at least.

Or you could just use Bypass OTG I guess but I haven't experimented with it.
 
ashxu said:
Or you could just use Bypass OTG I guess but I haven't experimented with it.

Yeah, just do jump j.HK air bypass, otg pickup for your counter combo on awkward heights, not s.MP.
 
PW has zero reversal options (on the ground. I admit that Thresher is probably the best air reversal in the game). At best, she's got 3 frame start-up that loses almost instantly to anything else. Generally, you're dealing with 4 frames as c.lp/c.lk lose to freaking everything except single-hit jump-ins. Maybe you're getting more mileage out of it, if so I'd love to see it because I'm not getting shit out of them. And they all lose to throws. Also, if we are talking about reversal DC, then I think a lot of ground has been given up already. Does it work occasionally? Absolutely. Is it a reliable reversal? Absolutely not. It is a metered gamble every time you do it. I'd be curious, is it actually any better than car in the same situations (mashing)?

Generally speaking, I get the most mileage out of c.hk (4 frame start-up) or c.mp (7 frame start up) but neither of which are reliable reversals in and of themselves... not in the way updo, pillar, reversal assist, and yes lk.hornet bomber (2f of start up before you get true invulnerability) are. I contend that anything hg anything beats out, lk.bomber also beats out. And there are some things (like say Filias c.mk) that bomber beats out that hg never stood a chance of reversing.

As far as EKG... first of all we are now comparing standard kit with supers (which of course cost meter). Second of all, there are very few if any situations in which lk.butt doesn't pick up what EKG does.

Double Butt may be no pillar/updo/FU, but it is damn good and at the very least, it is something unlike the ones I mentioned above. I remember having this exact conversation about Peacock's sword. Trust me, if you don't like it... PW will take either of them, no questions asked.
 
Death Crawl is better than car midscreen to mash out of dropped combos, pbgc into, and use as a reversal. If you use Car midscreen as a reversal lot of characters can cancel into something invul into, say, Napalm Pillar or another invul super to dodge car, since car needs to travel from one side of the screen into the middle. You can not do the same thing to death crawl due hitstop, so death crawl is a superior midscreen reversal for those situations.

Also, hatred guard goes into full combo meterlessly on successful application. LK Bomber goes into nothing significant without spending 2 meters into either cat heads or car->comboable from DHC. Double also his huge and fat during her 2f vulnerable startup(new change isn't in beta yet so im not counting it), while painwheel can low profile under HEAPS of shit while charging armour which delays hits to her in the case of using armour as an anti-air.
 
Spencer said:
Join the club.
Is it possible for you to make a post without somehow bringing in how Painwheel lacks such-and-such....
Though really, I'm not any better. <_<

I never did like how Hornet Bomber served as a lockdown + not-really-a-reversal-but-still-does-a-pretty-damn-good-job-of-getting-the-opponent-off-of-you assist while controlling both horizontal and a surprising amount of vertical space (Lock n Load and Fukua Drill I can easily jump over. MK Hornet Bomber, not so much, and it's not the best thing to try and contest). It's nice that Hornet Bomber is such a great assist but it just fulfills a bit too many roles, IMO. Maybe the Bombers were hit a bit too hard but it's the beta and things will probably be tweaked after stuff is tested, so eh.
 
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Spencer said:
Why shouldn't PW get a reversal or Val or Squigs (a better one anyway) or Fukua? Double actually has a better choice than any of those I mentioned.
PW Reversal Options:
- Meterless: Hatred Guard (of questionable use, but it's a thing; at best 3f vuln startup + always throw vuln)
- Metered: Death Crawl (Invinc from frame1, postflash-unblockable; Some throw vuln frames towards the end of startup, doesn't hit the air, no combos without DHC)
- Air Meterless: Hatred Guard, Fly
- Air Metered: Thresher (Best air super in the game)

Val Reversal Options:
- Metered: EKG (invinc from frame1, postflash unblockable; doesn't hit the air, no combos without DHC)
- Metered: Counter (I don't think it's very good, but it's a thing; 2 bars tho)
- Air Meterless: Doublejump, Airdash
- Air Metered: EKG (invinc from frame1, postflash unblockable; bad angle, no combos without DHC)
- Air Metered: Scalpels (safe, combos after, stellar angle; 2f vuln startup, postflash blockable)
Bonus Note: 4PP beats Low/Throw and most pushblock baits)

Squig Reversal Options:
- Meterless / Charge: Draugen Punch (best DP in the game)
- Metered: Daisy Pusher (invinc from frame1, beats the utmost of things; postflash avoidable)
- Air Meterless: Doublejump

Fukua Reversal Options:
- Meterless: Drill (invinc from frame1, safeish, safeisher if you spend the bar on Kiss; throw vulnerable, no combos, doesn't hit the air)
- Meterless: Armor Grab (armored from frame1, combos out of it, OS cancel into lv3 available; throw vulnerable, possible to armor break, slow startup, doesn't grab the air)
- Metered: BFF (invinc from frame1, combos out of it, postflash unblockable; slow startup, unlikely to hit the air)
- Metered: Dream Drill (postflash unblockable, great AA angle; 4f vuln startup, no combos without DHC (sometimes not even with))
- Air Meterless: Doublejump
- Air Metered: Air Dream Drill (postflash unblockable, great angle; 4f vuln startup, no combos outside the corner without DHC)

Double Reversal Options:
- Meterless: Lk.Bomber (doesn't hit the air, no combos without 2 bars, 2f vuln startup)
- Meterless: Mk.Bomber (better angle; still not really an AA, no combos without 2 bars, 4f vuln startup)
- Metered: Car (invinc from frame1, big hitbox; only postflash-unblockable with Double in the corner, no combos out of it without DHC)
- Air Meterless: Doublejump

To recap:
- PW has access to a meterless safe option with 3f+ vuln startup, a shitty ground super which at least is postflash-unblockable, and in the air a meterless safe option with 2f vuln startup as well as the best Air Super in the game
- Val has a shitty ground super which is air-ok and at least postflash unblockable, as well as another air super which has vuln startup but is safe on block
- Squigly has a shitty ground super and is really screwed without charge, but Punch charge gives her the best DP in the game
- Fukua has one billion options, none of which are great, but all of which are something the opponent has to be aware of; most notably Drill>Kiss & BFF on the ground

- Double has two shitty meterless tools that don't hit half the relevant areas, lose to meaties, you can't combo out of and are super unsafe on block; also a shitty ground super which doesn't work if Double is outside of the corner, no air options

I guess Double has some sekrit bonus tricks like Reverse Car xx Val Scalpels DHC (when you're offscreen) for a safe DHC with what usually wouldn't be one, but this doesn't give her a ton of bonus points

To recap harder:
- Reset PW on the ground (where she has a postflash unblockable super that is decently easy to avoid and some extra fluff), not in the air (just don't)
- Reset Val on the ground (where she has a postflash unblockable super that is decently easy to avoid and a questionably useful Counter super), not in the air (unless it's a meaty reset, but even then she still might hit you with EKG)
- Reset Squigly in the air (she dies probably, but beware of Divekick), not on the ground .. at least when she has punch charge, else whatever
- Reset Fukua in the air (but be careful), or with Throws (kinda sucks you have to take the scaled combo, but do it)

- Reset Double in the air (she dies), not on the ground (okay, she only has crap here too, so whatever - but be a bit careful)

~~~

I fail to see how any of these characters has worse defence than Double - other than maybe Squigly, and Squigly has a playstyle which doesn't put her in as much danger (jHP + SingSBO + cMK etc are outside the opponent's threatening range), plus she has the *option* to get the best DP in the game via charge.
Most of these characters also have extra fluff that don't help their "Reversal Mash" ability per se, but are still notable defensive options - similar to how Peacock's gunsword is an abysmal reversal that loses against everything (this was a point I made in some thread, which you didn't understand), but is still a strong tool because it's safeish, meterless, and has long range; which makes it a strong PBGC option, and allows you to just press it at midrange as a poke that will beat every button ever (which caused Dime's reaction of "But I hit with MP.Bang all the time and DC not very often, so obviously Bang must be the better reversal!", which, well, no).
 
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@KhaosMuffins

I'm really not concerned about what PW does and doesn't have. You could just as easily omit PW from my list if you wanted to make it more neutral. I generally just expound on PW because she's the character I know best.

My point was more that complaints that Double needs a reversal can just as easily be met with "yeah... so do quite a few characters".

If Double's only major issue at point is that she needs a reversal, than I fail to see how Val, Squig, and PW are supposed to function on point.

Edited to respond to @IsaVulpes :

Yeah, I think you more proved my point than disproved it. Like I said above, if Double needs a reversal to function well at point then what about the others who in your own words are functionally similar if only slightly better (a point I think can be fairly contested).

Again... forgetting for a moment that we are talking supers vs specials in most of these cases.
 
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Spencer said:
@KhaosMuffinsIf Double's only major issue at point is that she needs a reversal, than I fail to see how Val, Squig, and PW are supposed to function on point.

Uh, because Val can escape every situation with air movement(and has a good grounded reveral), Squig is kinda stupid if she's given pace to set up sing so getting in on her makes sense as a reward(also anti-air daisy pusher vs. opponent who's used up all of their air actions is a really good anti-air) and pw has a lot of reversal options so she shouldn't even be on your list.

If you're going to keep trying to insist that Painwheel has no reversal despite, factually, having plenty of reversals, I'm gonna ask you to git gud and not post about Painwheel again until you do.
 
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Spencer said:
If Double's only major issue at point is that she needs a reversal, than I fail to see how Val, Squig, and PW are supposed to function on point.
1) These characters have other things that Double doesn't have*, like good resets, neutral tools beyond one button, damage, ways to open you up that aren't "throw", etc.
You can read "Double needs a reversal" as "Double needs a buff, and giving her a reversal would be an easy thing to do that makes her a bit and possibly sufficiently better; much less work than moving around hitboxes and startup on moves and things and stuff to give her better <something else>", if you prefer it that way?
2) If LK.Butt had invinc from frame1, it would still be a shitty reversal that doesn't allow you to combo out of without 2 bars and doesn't hit the air and is unsafe on block, so it's not like she suddenly gets old Fiber

*Yes, I'm aware that Double has things they don't have..

E: Before people are misunderstanding things I say (because people seem to love not reading properly): I'm not advocating any Double buffs; have literally no idea whether she needs any - there is no Double in Europe, and I'm gonna be careful stating anything on the matter.
I'm just pointing out faults in arguments made by people, such as "Double has better defence than Fukua" (which she doesn't) - whether she needs to have better defence, I don't know.

I think MK Butt assist did too much (lockdown, ground control, air control, and being partly invincible), but figured a removal of invinc would be sufficient on the matter (if you look at the hitbox on that thing, you'll see that it'd still beat mostly everything anyway), dunno why it got completely overhauled.
Point Double I have no idea whether she's too weak or too strong, she's just boring as shit to me so I'd like to see that changed, but that'd be a bunch more work than "Make Lk.Butt invinc from frame1".
 
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peacock air grab is mostly usless for solopeacock now, its like old grab. <though you can hit with a.mk but thats all> it really takes a big part of my gameplay. now i can only mix cross unders, and they dont work with big band because avery hits him in the air. so now neither works on big band, grabs or a.hk.
 
Spencer said:
My point was more that complaints that Double needs a reversal can just as easily be met with "yeah... so do quite a few characters".

If Double's only major issue at point is that she needs a reversal, than I fail to see how Val, Squig, and PW are supposed to function on point.
Let's imagine we lived in a world where Peacock was a weak character
And people proposed buffs to her projectile game, because Georges are bad and her zoning gameplan didn't work at all

Would you say "If Peacock's only major issue at point is that she needs strong projectiles, then I fail to see how Squigly, Bella and BB (all of which have no projectiles at all!) are supposed to function on point."?

Just because some characters function well with bad defence, doesn't mean every char does (this is aside from Double actually having *worse* defence than other characters).

ninja-nutria said:
peacock air grab is mostly usless for solopeacock now, its like old grab.
Yeah, but old grab wasn't useless at all - you can get combos out of it via Doom still, and I figure at least there'll be some setup possibilities after?
OG Solopeacock Infy used her airgrab a lot ~back in the days~ and sure didn't think it was useless?

I'm pretty sure it won't stay in it's current form with the combos-on-PW and some-assists-work etc business, btw

Aside from the fact that solo is the least consideration, does jMK Lenny Argus work, or does that take too long?

a.mk a.hk.
j., please. j.j.j..
 
ClarenceMage said:
If you're going to keep trying to insist that Painwheel has no reversal despite, factually, having plenty of reversals, I'm gonna ask you to git gud and not post about Painwheel again until you do.

Lord... I'm going to stop here before we delve to far into ad hominems that neither you nor I can really back-up since the one time we tried to play our connection was terrible.

I'll also pretend that you aren't talking down to me since it would be insane to assume both
a. I'm not trying to "git gud" even if we have differing opinions (seriously, this "git gud" thing comes across as awfully pompous at times as the implication is that you're "gud" and anyone you say it to isn't)
b. I'm ignorant about the character I've put in tons of hours... a character I play almost exclusively (which is a short coming in its own right).

So I guess what I'm saying is to show me the same respect I've always shown you.

More to the actual point. I'll give you that when I say "zero reversal" options, I'm being slightly hyperbolic. But we are talking a super vs a special in some of these cases. And in others we are talking about 3 frames for 1 hit of armor vs 2 frames for actual invulnerability. My point isn't that PW should get a reversal option. I've never seriously suggested it. My point is just that Double's reversal options are as good or better than some in the cast.

Should every reversal option really lead into a full combo? This tangentially reminds me off Filias complaining about the hard knock down a few months ago. Or Peacocks complaining now that air throw "only" gives them a full screen to do what they are best at. Or when Fukua's got mad that they couldn't confirm off of every fireball at full screen. Not every thing in this game needs to lead into a full combo + position + more meter + + +.

@IsaVulpes

1) I don't disagree.
2) If the metric for a reversal is getting 7k damage off of it then aren't reversals probably a bit too strong? Double's "shitty" reversal will still reset her to neutral (infinitely better situation than she was in) while still doing damage to her opponent. I just think we can do better than giving yet another character yet another mashable, reversal option so they can get yet another full combo.

And yes. If Fukua or Parasoul were bitching about their projectiles not being good enough because "look at Peacock", I'd definitely respond in kind. Their projectile game is fine. Double's reversal option is fine. Is it the best in the game? No. Does she have it? Without question.
 
Who exactly is asking for combos out of LK.Butt? Are you arguing against a request that never happened? The request I've seen is "Make LK.Butt invinc from frame1", which would allow Double to actually beat a thing she called out to happen (cough Parasoul jHK Toss jLP cough) when not in the corner - that's it.

Given both your "I mash Thresher so hard that I get Install by accident sometimes" and "Baiting a DP via blocking is actually shit" complaints, I think you severely overrate the strength of reversals (or underrate how dumb offence can be / is)?
Reversals aren't a go-to defensive option because they're so great, but because the alternatives don't really work and just melt.

In the first place, this argument seems a bit silly - again, the point isn't "Double needs a stronger reversal or she can't function", but "Double is too weak, and an easy buff would be to strengthen her reversal game".
I'm sure if you have a better buff idea for her, people will consider that in place of the stronger L.Butt;
If you fundamentally disagree with Double being too weak, then whether or not she already has stronger reversals than other characters is completely irrelevant (maybe she has the weakest reversal options by far, but is still balanced overall - quite possible!).
 
IsaVulpes said:
Aside from the fact that solo is the least consideration, does jMK Lenny Argus work, or does that take too long?
I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but Peacock can still get more off of air throw if she hasn't used her air dash yet. No idea whether or not that'll stick around, obviously.

Possible ideas for improving Double's playability:
  • Flesh Step distance traveled increased/decreased based off strength of button used.
  • Flesh Step has full invuln during its projectile invuln period.
  • Overhead Filia j.HK as aerial 2HK command normal. (Can be cancelled into Item Crash.)
  • Sekhmet s.MP replaces s.MP, 1 or 2 points of armor instead of hyper armor.
  • Nightmare Legion drops the canned animation followup less often (against aerial opponents, it's very easy to connect the initial punch but get no animation), or is at least not unsafe on hit if the followup fails to start.
  • Luger bullet changed to flaming bullet from Inferno Brigade, slightly bigger hitbox as a result (at least for HP version, I want Cannon Spike assist), and sets opponent on fire.
  • Barrel is on fire and sets opponent on fire.

And keep the Beta Bomber changes. This gives her interesting assist options, more neutral/mixup options on point, and makes her a little less fucky to play in certain corner case scenarios. I don't really believe she needed the new "perfect reversal" LK Bomber but whatever, it gives her more defense options.
 
Well assuming MK Bomber is bad now, I'm probably going to just pick HK Bomber, LK Bomber doesn't go nearly as far enough and I rock Updo anyway...

It's not even an interesting change, I may be completely wrong but it seems like the move may be just bad now. (Or not as good)
 
I mention the combo out of Butt because both you and CM mention how it is "shitty" because you can't do shit out of it without 2 bars. I'm saying that our standard for "shitty" is pretty fucking low.

Not saying I didn't say it, but where did I say that baiting a DP by blocking is shit? I assume you (or I?) mean DP assist? Because yeah, that is shitty since you're going to get opened up by the point. I've found it infinitely better to bait a whiff. In any case, maybe I said that, but I don't really remember saying it and I don't think I feel that way (if we are talking points) so maybe I was talking out of my ass? Anyway, not relevant at all, but that is a true black-out moment for me, so just seeking clarification.
PS: all PWs will eventually get HI when they meant Thresher whether you are mashing for your life or not. Watched it happen to Elda in the last Kumite I watched and the announcers were super confused as to why he HI'd, but we PW knew... oh did we ever.

I may be overrating the strength of reversals. They are hardly game breaking on the point character as they are pretty solidly risk and reward. When you get hit by semi-mashed pillar or a mashed Updo you can generally count on that being your fault as you are resetting predictably or not keeping them honest.

Now that said, generally any buff to a DP is a buff to that DP being used as an assist which I'm more fundamentally opposed to as DP-assist is probably the single best thing in this game. It is rarely the optimal choice, but it is usually a good choice. And down-back while waiting to confirm off of your assist is a very valid, very boring thing to both watch and play against.
 
Spencer said:
I think we are being a little unfair to mashing. Risk to reward in this game says mash like crazy.

Baits require very deliberate set-ups many of which we've seen a number of times, so you learn when not to mash (is anyone still falling for Squig's 2hp bait?).

But if you aren't churning butter at common combo drop points, reset points, etc... you're missing out. Getting hit by mashes isn't really reflective of anyone at this point. It's more a feature.

The thing that defines good vs bad mashers is knowing when to stop and start mashing.
Jason said:
Yeah blocking instead of attacking is pretty elaborate.
Spencer said:
@Jason
Dropping combo into a block is hardly a decent bait. It works if you know they are mashing (thought it can easily get you hurt vs throw supers), but to effectively give up all of the momentum you have on the off chance that they might be happening... Not to mention that good "mashing" is typically just a few fast motions during really common resets/drops. It is not mashing super from the moment you get hit until the moment you stop getting hit. That shit will get you killed in a hurry. I almost never get caught out on mashing. Add to that, many teams running safe DHC options, and there is very, very, very little risk to a lot of mashing.

Sounds pretty much like "Baiting point character reversals by blocking isn't good" to me

Spencer said:
semi-mashed pillar

What even

E: The changes made to L.Bomber (fully invinc, 1 less hit, faster movement, less hitstun) looked like they made it a worse assist, not a better one.
 
Spencer said:
And down-back while waiting to confirm off of your assist is a very valid, very boring thing to both watch and play against.
man if only painwheel had moves that could hit an opponent holding downback
 
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