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Indivisible: Lab Zero's Action-RPG! (General Discussion)

Midiman said:
While I don't mind these side-talks about these things, I kind of encourage this kind of stuff to go into a related thread. Keep the thread informative. There's only so much we can go on before it becomes thread-about-general-game-talk-and-sometimes-Indivisible.
When the time comes, I'd recommend we sequester this off as the, "Pre-IGG Indivisible Thread," honestly.
 
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I'm a fan of the difficulty adjustments in games like Bastion, in which you can add modifiers that will make the game more difficult in exchange for higher rewards.

I'm really trying to hold back my hype for Indivisible, cause once the crowdfunding campaign finishes after a month, theres still going to be around two years before the game actually gets released. Right now, waiting a month to be able to wait two more years is extra tough.

I really hope indivisible does for RPG's what Skullgirls did to me with fighting games.
 
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IsaVulpes said:
I like when you play through the game once, and then it unlocks a Hard Mode
Playing devil's advocate here, the main problem I can see with this is that many people simply don't replay games at all, because they've got a million other games in their queue and steam library that they haven't even started. This being the case, you really don't want to be unlocking the "fun mode" at the very point most people stop playing, unless it's something 'most people' wouldn't bother with anyway and is somewhat easy to implement. e.g. Easy unlocking Normal unlocking Hard unlocking Very Hard is just a bad idea, but Easy/Normal/Hard being unlocked and completing any of those granting access to Ultra Hard makes sense.
 
I thought the Megaman series as a whole is so fondly remembered because it does a really good job of teaching through gameplay. I mean, one of the KC crew has his game handle thanks to a video all about teaching through gameplay.
 
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Vadsamoht said:
Playing devil's advocate here, the main problem I can see with this is that many people simply don't replay games at all.
That is kind of the point of unlockable difficulties, they are there to encourage replaying the game.
 
I feel like this game should use the Borderlands 2/Far Cry 3 style of leveling up: three skill trees, each with their own play style and you can put points into any of them at any time.
 
Vadsamoht said:
Playing devil's advocate here, the main problem I can see with this is that many people simply don't replay games at all, because they've got a million other games in their queue and steam library that they haven't even started. This being the case, you really don't want to be unlocking the "fun mode" at the very point most people stop playing, unless it's something 'most people' wouldn't bother with anyway and is somewhat easy to implement. e.g. Easy unlocking Normal unlocking Hard unlocking Very Hard is just a bad idea, but Easy/Normal/Hard being unlocked and completing any of those granting access to Ultra Hard makes sense.

Normally this games that have, easy and normal as default, and a hard difficulty unlockable after beating normal, have a pretty hard normal difficutly for a newcomer or a first playtrough. Those games are meant to be played, over and over again, with their systems dominated by the player, until playing the game is second nature.

And there is the reward for doing those things, for finishing the game on Ultra Mega Hard.

Those difficulties can't be implemented in the normal playtrough (because they are too hard), those difficulties can not be acessible for everyone at the start (because they almost recquire you to have certain upgrades that you wouldn't have on the first time), and they can't cease to exist, because they are the reason that a lot of people play this genre.
 
Lex said:
That is kind of the point of unlockable difficulties, they are there to encourage replaying the game.
Yes, but my point was that few people will play most games again practically regardless of what is unlocked, meaning that a) it is likely not worth it in terms of (development) cost-benefit, and b) you could potentially lock a player out of playing at their 'natural' skill level in their only playthrough of the game, thereby giving them a negative impression. The 'encouragement' will sway very few people.


The counter-argument to this is that you don't need to design a game entirely for every user who's going to buy this game for $1 in a steam sale ten years from now. In the same way that development of the technical "high-level" features of a fighter are subsidized by the people who buy the game but only play through the story mode once on easy and consider themselves done, you can take the same approach to having the 'rewarding' content in another game be mostly paid for by people who will never play it (within reason, and assuming that there aren't more urgent things that require time/money instead).
 
Twisted Skull said:
I feel like this game should use the Borderlands 2/Far Cry 3 style of leveling up: three skill trees, each with their own play style and you can put points into any of them at any time.
yeaaaahhh

if we could not do anything those games did

that'd be great
 
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Kai said:
yeaaaahhh

if we could not do anything those games did

that'd be great

Hey Borderlands 2 was fun when the NPCs weren't talking. And if you weren't in UVHM. That mode was the most unbalanced thing I've ever seen.
 
Kai said:
yeaaaahhh

if we could not do anything those games did

that'd be great
What do you mean? The progression system in those games were easy to understand plus Borderlands 2/Far Cry 3 are awesome games. And even if the skill tree styles of those games aren't used, the leveling system should still be easy to grasp and offer choice.
 
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Back on the game... I was thinking about movement: will we have an extremely agile character (with double jumps and air dashes) or something with a more controlled pace? Also the necessary " will we have full motion control when the character is jumpong/falling?" I've played some old games where once you commit to a jump you almost can't move while in the air. The experience is... Painful, but it also could work in specific setups.
 
Twisted Skull said:
What do you mean? The progression system in those games were easy to understand plus Borderlands 2/Far Cry 3 are awesome games.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree on those games being awesome. They were certainly... easy to understand.
 
Kai said:
We're gonna have to agree to disagree on those games being awesome. They were certainly... easy to understand.

Kai please don't tell me I put 500+ hours into a bad game. I was having a good day.
 
Vadsamoht said:
Playing devil's advocate here, the main problem I can see with this is that many people simply don't replay games at all, because they've got a million other games in their queue and steam library that they haven't even started.
Yeah, ..and? This seems like a weird argument to make. "You don't want to put an epic boss battle as the finale of your game, because most people won't get that far. Better put all interesting content in the first 10 minutes"?

This being the case, you really don't want to be unlocking the "fun mode" at the very point most people stop playing, unless it's something 'most people' wouldn't bother with anyway and is somewhat easy to implement. e.g. Easy unlocking Normal unlocking Hard unlocking Very Hard is just a bad idea, but Easy/Normal/Hard being unlocked and completing any of those granting access to Ultra Hard makes sense.
I specifically stated that I don't want any difficulty settings at game start at all (precisely because people put the wrong one - and often they can't even know, because 'Normal' means something different for "Dark Souls" than for "Hello Kitty Adventure") -
Just a normal mode that everybody does their first playthrough in, and then when done you unlock said Ultra Hard mode where getting hit once-twice means you die.
 
Ktulu said:
Kai please don't tell me I put 500+ hours into a bad game. I was having a good day.
They weren't bad. They had broad appeal & finely tuned mechanics. Too broad, actually, and too finely tuned. I found them to be soulless, like a summer movie. I don't think developers should be imitating any part of them them, if they want to make games with heart and lasting appeal.
 
Kai said:
They weren't bad. They had broad appeal & finely tuned mechanics. Too broad, actually, and too finely tuned. I found them to be soulless, like a summer movie. I don't think developers should be imitating any part of them them, if they want to make games with heart and lasting appeal.

I can understand that argument, and I'll admit it's difficult going back to Borderlands at this point. Gearbox isn't the best at fixing problems with their games and usually just make shit worse...
 
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Mike_Z said:
There was a game recently, which I can't remember the name of, that just renamed Easy/Normal/Hard to Normal/Hard/Crazy in an attempt to get new players to stop picking Hard when they suck; play Portal 2 with the commentary on and listen to the concessions they made as a result of focus testing (a large reason it's a worse game than Portal); etc.
The game that Mike is referring to is Valdis Story: Abyssal City (good game, by the way). When it was released, a number of people complained to the developer that the game's Hard difficulty was too hard...so he just renamed them in an later update.
 
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I have just one doubt about his design, though. Isn't his bow* way too short?

*corrected, sorry
 
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Kai said:
Guess she's calling on her past lives? That's pretty cool.
Maybe, or it could possibly be some dimension related stuff. Like Zebei being his world's Ajna. idk.
 
The rather long nose immediately made me think of Usopp from One Piece.
 
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Twisted Skull said:
I feel like this game should use the Borderlands 2/Far Cry 3 style of leveling up: three skill trees, each with their own play style and you can put points into any of them at any time.
Ugh. Ugh.
Different skill trees with arbitrary determination of abilities by earning arbitrary skill points such that you can only earn cool abilities later (except that you can usually learn them earlier by grinding anyway). I have not enjoyed this in anything; it was easily the worst part of Ori for me, too. I sort of look at this as "we couldn't figure out a better way to gate abilities".
Ugh?
Ugh.

DukeMagus said:
will we have full motion control when the character is jumpong/falling?"
Yes, she has full air control.

ArgonBern said:
I REALLY disagree with that, but that's not on topic.
http://skullheart.com/index.php?profile-posts/7204/
 
WaterMystic277 said:
arc?

Oh yeah, if Lab 0 hasn't seen this shit about actually doing archery while running, I'll toss it here.

Don't even get me started on how silly that guy's videos are. With the weak draw weight on his bow and the fact that he's not even going to full draw he wouldn't be able to injure somebody wearing padded cloth armor at normal shooting distances. Its some neat trick shooting but any claims to have 'rediscovered lost ancient techniques' is total bullshit. Especially considering we have surviving archery manuals from medieval Europe that show you how to actually shoot a war bow.

And yes, you can sometimes shoot a narrow-head arrow though chainmail because it has lots of little holes in it. That's part of the reason why you always wear heavy padded armor under your chainmail, its never used by itself.
 
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Why am I always so late to these conversations
A lot of people are talking about possible "reincarnation" themes because of the word "incarnation". Incarnation can also mean a physical manifestation of a god/spirit; perhaps they represent some kind of deity in the game?
 
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Meow-Professor said:
Why am I always so late to these conversations
A lot of people are talking about possible "reincarnation" themes because of the word "incarnation". Incarnation can also mean a physical manifestation of a god/spirit; perhaps they represent some kind of deity in the game?

Well Valkyrie Profile, which is one of the major inspirations for the game, has the main character recruiting the souls of recently dead heroes to fight monsters with (and eventually send them to Valhala to fight alongside the gods).

I think Indivisible will probably have some similarities in that department, but of course we won't know for sure until we get some more story stuff.
 
The best difficulty setting I have seen in a game is in Super Robot Wars.

Super Robot Wars is a strategy RPG (like Fire Emblem, Shining Force, Tactics Ogre, Disgaea, Final Fantasy Tactics, etc) where you progress the game in a series of static chapters (like Fire Emblem). Each chapter has a win condition and one or more loss conditions. Each chapter also has a (depending on the game, either secret or displayed, more often displayed than not) Battle Mastery condition that awards the player a Skill Point if they achieve it. It's an optional, harder objective that replaces or supplements the victory condition, like a time limit, reducing an unkillable boss's HP to 0, killing all enemies instead of targeting only required ones, killing only CERTAIN enemies, keeping specific targets alive, doing a completely different victory condition altogether like hitting waypoints or escaping the map, and so on. The more Skill Points you have, you'll go on harder missions later in the game, culminating in there being an additional final stage with a larger, meaner end boss immediately after killing the original end boss. The fewer Skill Points you have, you'll go on easier missions later in the game, and you miss out on secret items and units. There is additional story sometimes, but the additions are per Skill Point (doing a mission under a time limit results in a completely different aftermath where your characters might defuse a bomb that otherwise would have gone off, for example) instead of large scale.

This gates the harder difficulties by player skill instead of requiring players to know how actually good they are or making them beat the game first. The Skill Points themselves often increase the game's difficulty already without doing stupid shit like inflating HP/damage numbers and making heals worthless, and many bosses use Skill Points as variables to determine their own stats and abilities. It's a really good system.


edit: Here's an example.
This is a flowchart listing all the Battle Masteries for every stage in SRW Z2.1.
This is a screenshot Let's Play of Stage 20 of that game. The basic victory conditions of the map are "Destroy all opponents" and the loss condition changes a couple times (GOD I love SRW) depending on which characters are important to the immediate plot. The Battle Mastery requires the player to defeat all enemies within 3 turns of the first of 2 gigantic waves of reinforcements, a feat which requires planning, smart movement, and managing a shitload of ammo so you don't blow it all taking out half the bosses early before the other half show up.
 
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Kai said:
Guess she's calling on her past lives? That's pretty cool.
Well to be specific it said Incarnation, not Reincarnation, which is a totally different thing. My theory is that the game world has many different gods from many different cultures, and the playable characters are manifestations of those gods, or they borrow their god's power. Zebei may be the Incarnation of some archer/hunter deity, and maybe he also has a transformation that more closely resembles that deity, like Ajna has with her demonic form with the third eye.

My utmost apologies to Lab Zero if I fuckin' nailed it.
 
Denizen said:
Well to be specific it said Incarnation, not Reincarnation, which is a totally different thing. My theory is that the game world has many different gods from many different cultures, and the playable characters are manifestations of those gods, or they borrow their god's power. Zebei may be the Incarnation of some archer/hunter deity, and maybe he also has a transformation that more closely resembles that deity, like Ajna has with her demonic form with the third eye.

My utmost apologies to Lab Zero if I fuckin' nailed it.
Each one of our past lives is called an incarnation. Using reincarnation as a noun normally only happens when talking about an incarnation in context to its previous incarnation.
 
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Kai said:
Each one of our past lives is called an incarnation. Using reincarnation as a noun normally only happens in context when talking about an incarnation in context to its previous incarnation.
Oh cool. Well it's still two different definitions and I'm expecting it to be closer to the deity thing.
 
Ah fuck, you couldn't just leave me with the hope and mystery could you?
 
Jason said:
Its some neat trick shooting but any claims to have 'rediscovered lost ancient techniques' is total bullshit.
Yeah, I totally agree with you about Lars, and the headlines that kept popping up around that video were ridiculous. I think the visual of the technique is still interesting though.

Since Zebei is supposed to be a bit of a show-off, I wouldn't mind seeing him use some trick shooting styles for a few of his animations, depending on the type of attack he's doing. It'd be nice to see them break the RPG convention of handing all of the crazy attack animations to the melee fighters, while leaving the archer with the same two-frame pose for the whole game.
 
+5 style points if he shoots blind in one of his attacks.
 
@Kai it doesn't specifically mention that they are Incarnations of Ajna, just that they are incarnations, so they don't necessarily habe to be her past lives.
Furthermore, unless i'm wrong, the term incarnation doesnt have to refer to a past life, it just somethin suddenly gaining a living, physical form. Perhaps Ajna is awakening inanimate totems or artifacts?!

Also to anyone who's keeping an eye on the Indivisible twitter, I laughed at the tweet about the pug dog where they lowkey established that Earl is not called Mr. Grumbles.
 
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