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The Unofficial Official Beta Discussion Thread

UMBRELLA: I'm liking this version a lot more. I actually don't think she deserves the jMK reverse beat stuff, so that will probably go away. I think the distance she's hitting 3MP/2MP in Ravenous is a bit much given how fast she is, expect to see that adjusted, then I think I'm content. I'm confident Umbrella players will figure out the rest in time.
Not an Umby player but I think the jMK reverse beat should stay(unless something truly busted is found). Parasoul is using jMK reverse beat most of the time to get sticky, somewhat safe air strings against aerial opponents, or to do certain mixups. This use is limited by the fact that she starts in stage 3 with big scaling on hit. Umby at present doesn't really have an aerial launcher like Para jMP to do those kinds of mixups, so she would mostly be getting the safe air strings bit, which I think she's fine with(though in Rav this is a pretty mean pressure starter).
Also, it's just cool! The fact that Parasoul and Umby have the same normal with similar properties because they're siblings is a neat detail. The "rule of cool" 100% applies here, though this isn't really arguing from a balance perspective so much as from my personal observations.
 
I have really enjoyed the changes to Painwheel this patch. I feel like the adjustments to her normals are immediately noticeable and the improvements to H Buer make it a more more consistent antiair. I also really like the direction the team is taking install by making it more potent for point PW and a little less so as a DHC.

I do wish to see more changes to increase her value to her team to incentivize more creative team comps using her. Outside of pinons, I feel she does not have any standout assists or any assists with armor properties. I think having charge normals, or having her normals have armor points by default when used as an assist would go a long way. I also think adjusting M and H Buer duration or hit velocity would allow those moves to be assists that more of the cast can take advantage of. I think its really unfortunate that H Buer (especially with the recent hurtbox changes) cant be used in the same way as Excellebella or H Train or Hungern Rush where they can be used to gather a resource like Dahilia reload or Valentine Vial while still giving a combo outside of the corner. In its current state, the animation is too fast to get a resource and this alongside it immeidately sending the opponent across the screen, its hard to use it to continue a combo after using it or capitalize on it when it lands as an antiair. This changes in Hatred Install, but that would mean having an assist that isn't very useful most of the match. Partial Charged nails would also be a nice to have projectile assist for a lot of the cast. Charged normals like 2MP or 5MK would be okay multihit options and charged 5MP would be a decent antiair. All of the charged normals having armor would also make Painwheel more threating since she would be coming in with Hatred Guard.

I know previously people have brought up Hatred Guard potentially be reworked, but I feel the mechanic is fine as is. I think it would be interesting to see if a visual indicator of how much Hatred Guard she has stored would impact how opponents approach her when they can visually see she is able to cash out on all of the extra damage she has stored instead of it being a subtle increase in her damage output that both players may not be conscious of.

I dont really mind if Painwheel isnt the strongest character in the game, but I feel like she doesn't have to be so restrictive feeling when it comes to building around or with her. I think about comparing her assist options vs Dahilia or Annie or Fillia or Eliza and etc and thinking about her best and most common option being L Pinion, a move she cant even do on Point and doesnt work with her main mechanic, makes me kinda sad.
 
Regarding the j2MP adjustments, an unfortunate byproduct of the new buffer on LP normals after instant overhead is that you'll get 5LP instead of a dash if you buttondash with LPHP. Which I do, generally for 2LK conversions that call for better spacing. I've been working on adjusting, but if the buffer could ignore buttondashes somehow, that would be great. If not, I guess ill keep working on adjusting.
I can do that!

I really think everyone should take reduced damage rather than everyone taking 100%,
Robo-Fortune reaallllly does not need that on sHP. Painwheel requires 100% for dealing full damage back. I feel pretty strongly the way it is now is the way to go, even if it stings.

I think having charge normals, or having her normals have armor points by default when used as an assist would go a long way.
There's no great way to differentiate between the two desired assist types on character select for these kind of things, and it's been avoided in the past outside of some crazy edge case exceptions like Peacock's item drop.

Maybe one day faaaar in the future we can try a beta experiement letting you hold the button down on character select when choosing an assist, and it will activate whatever improved version of the move is. That would add 50 viable assists at once and be pretty bananas. Val sHKx3, PW c[HP], Ms. Fortune full rekka, Umbrella sMPx2, etc, come to mind.
 
There's no great way to differentiate between the two desired assist types on character select for these kind of things, and it's been avoided in the past outside of some crazy edge case exceptions like Peacock's item drop.

I think that's completely reasonable. If I am interpreting the first statement as "we cant do charged AND uncharged moves as assists" then I wouldnt mind if it was charged normals by default and drop all non-charged variations of chargeable normals. I really do think it would be great for Painwheel to have an assist that allows her to build Hatred Guard, even if its just one. Even if it means, 22 + Punch button gives you 3 specific charged normals chosen by the dev team or she doesnt get non-charged normals, I think anything lost would be more than made up for in what is gained.
 
I can do that!
Great! Really appreciate it, thank you. I have basically everything I ever wanted for elbow.

Robo-Fortune reaallllly does not need that on sHP. Painwheel requires 100% for dealing full damage back. I feel pretty strongly the way it is now is the way to go, even if it stings.
Damn. That really does sting, makes a few options scarier or unviable at lower HP and is gonna be another significant uptick on how much damage band takes on brass calls on top of the previous adjustment. I don't like it, to the point where id even say let robo have that, but if it's staying, oh well. it is what it is.


Maybe one day faaaar in the future we can try a beta experiement letting you hold the button down on character select when choosing an assist, and it will activate whatever improved version of the move is. That would add 50 viable assists at once and be pretty bananas. Val sHKx3, PW c[HP], Ms. Fortune full rekka, Umbrella sMPx2, etc, come to mind.
This would be awesome and would open up the meta and teambuilding in lots of really cool ways. Hope this comes to pass eventually
 
Will the Umbrella players just tell me what moves could be adjusted to be easier to combo on heavies? I can adjust the launch height of moves to launch characters higher the heavier the character is - that is done ALL over the place for every character. If I can just do that on a few key Umbrella moves I will consider it. OTGless Hungern Rush I really do not think needs to come back.
Off the top of my head - overstuffed Salt Grinder + M bubble pop is the biggest thing that comes to mind, but I don't have time to lab at the moment, I can (and almost certainly will) later tonight though. Even then, you can still get OTGless 5MP and some other shenanigans, but you can't get optimal stuff. Perhaps also puddle empowered SnS, but I'd need to check that. Part of me wants to say overstuffed jHP as well, but I'm not sure that it does need adjusting.

UMBRELLA: I'm liking this version a lot more. I actually don't think she deserves the jMK reverse beat stuff, so that will probably go away. I think the distance she's hitting 3MP/2MP in Ravenous is a bit much given how fast she is, expect to see that adjusted, then I think I'm content. I'm confident Umbrella players will figure out the rest in time.
I'm not super attached to reverse beat jMK, it did give her a little bit more damage in non chomp routes, and I was playing around with OS jMK > jMP which was kinda silly, but I don't think it was the most optimal stuff anyway. I did like the idea of cancelling it on whiff though, it might give her an extra bump of air mobility, but I won't be super sad if it goes since I haven't discovered anything with it yet.

PATCH TIMING:

We're a very small crew, and I'd like to make sure nothing goes awry on the main stage and we feel confident that the patch is stable. Since 99% of the games for the SGCS will have been played on the current retail patch, we'll close it out with that. This patch will be prepared in advance to go out very shortly after CB, and then I look forward to watching all of the tournamnets played on that version afterwards. I know this is dissapointing to some and a relief to others, but I think it's the fairest option, even if it's not the most ideal.

Perhaps a side tournament for Beta on Laptops / Steam Decks?
I think this is also very fair. Our big aussie major comes up the week after May so it might work out that ours is also played on current retail, which I think is fine. It would be nice to give retail Umbrella a nice send-off, personally ^ ^
 
I think retail Painwheel is better than most think, and I'm very weary of giving her this many buffs and then keeping HI as is. HI could have some damage back but I still think she should expect to lose 1.0k to 0.8k on that damage. We can try putting the recovery back to what it was before, sure.
Does it count as buffs if it's making her a functional character? Even then looking at the wiki her HI combos are doing about the same as big bands for an extra bar. While her neutral is better than bands her assists definitely aren't. People need a reason to put Painwheel on a team other than her cool flight mechanic and making her main draw of a safe dhc and damage engine potential a lot worse makes no sense to me. Even if she's better than most think that puts her at most, around Parasoul level? I have never in my life heard anyone complain about her install so nerfing it just so she functions properly is frankly insane in my opinion.
I'm liking this version a lot more. I actually don't think she deserves the jMK reverse beat stuff, so that will probably go away. I think the distance she's hitting 3MP/2MP in Ravenous is a bit much given how fast she is, expect to see that adjusted, then I think I'm content. I'm confident Umbrella players will figure out the rest in time.
Removing the jMK reverse beat is also very silly in my opinion, it's just a cool reset option for her and probably won't even be her best one. I think Iso put it best but especially after sqrt has been gutted I don't think letting her have this causes any harm. All in all I just want to put forth my thoughts since it's better than sitting in silence. Bear in mind I don't play either character so take it all with a grain of salt.
BEOWULF

I don't think we'll have much time to change much about this character, but I think that's alright. I am likely going to look at max Undizzy regrab things though, and if he has to spend 1 bar instead of 0 in some scenarios, I think that is alright personally.
WHY ARE WE NERFING BEOWULF!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!? Admittedly I am very biased since I play him but nerfing a bottom 3 character for nothing in return for seemingly no reason is so strange to me. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone earnestly saying Beowulf is too strong as he is now so nerfing his damage and potentially removing his best ender is wild! I can't tell if max unbizzy regrab means grabbing during a new combo at max undizzy or grabbing at all after reaching 240+. Either way nerfing him without any buffs at all to compensate is very odd considering how low on the tier list he falls. I'm also going to take this time to echo the sentiments of other Beo bros and ask for a buffer off of headbutt so it isn't a one frame link to 2mp on Beo and Eliza as well as asking for a few more active frames on chair on 5hp for consistencies sake. I'd hate to see Beo get nerfed for literally nothing in return.
 
late to the party here but a i have a couple small thoughts on this current umby and the changes proposed.

I personally think the first rework was the most fun she has been and encouraged playing in more of her modes more than before OR now, yes the damage needed toned down a lot but I don't think she needed to lose DP bounce and IMO probably could keep the ability to drain via bubbles.

I also don't see why she should lose jmk reverse beat for the sins of other set ups she has, why would we take away the less effective but more fun/cool set up instead of the more effective but dull high low?
 
That would add 50 viable assists at once and be pretty bananas. Val sHKx3, PW c[HP], Ms. Fortune full rekka, Umbrella sMPx2, etc, come to mind.
I dream about normals having that for so long, why can only North Knuckle have that
Not to mention some other missing assists, Item Drop Lvl 2, Nom, Pummel Horse
 
As for Umbrella routing. I feel like 6HP should be adjusted on heavies. It should launch higher up, and have some sort of vacuum.

When "fast cancelling" it into bobble to get the max launch highet it drops completely on heavies.

I feel like 6HP M bubble into slurp that pops the bubble is an essential combo piece and should be possible on heavies.
 
Before I also forget - what's the opinion on Hungern Rush doing automatic chomps on point? My fingies get so tired labbing out chomp routes, and since it gives a fixed amount of hunger and there's now no reason to do less than max chomps, I'm finding it hard to justify it in my head to keep in manual. I get it for beat extend because of hit scaling if you start a combo with it, but Umbrella loses tons of damage if she doesn't go for max chomps at the start or the end of a combo. I wouldn't be averse to it doing less/faster chomps visually to make combos shorter, but they don't seem too long with the current amount of chomps anyway.
 
Hi Liam, would you consider removing beat extend assist being able to vacuum (and also uncorner) on block?
For such a strong offensive+defensive and pressure tool I strongly believe it does not need this in addition to applying blockstun at long range.

Im also not 100% on the current changes to it, in my experience Ive been able to hbd quite frequently with it still. (M). From what Ive been hearing and experiencing, the current change appears minor with the exception of Bella M Beat conversions.
 
I've finally had a chance to play around with the painwheel changes against other people, and would like to share my thoughts.

For context, I've been playing Painwheel since I started with Skullgirls in 2021, picking up Peacock not long after. A majority of my playtime has been spent with Squigly as a third, though I've played mostly Pea/PW this year and am highly considering adding umbrella to the lineup once the ongoing changes are stabilised.
I think this context is significant given the cumulative effects of Lenny and Hatred Install nerfs absolutely wrecking the damage end of that DHC pairing. While still great utility, the extra recovery on Install and changes to Lenny timing have gutted the options and damage of those routes (especially considering you feel the Lenny damage nerf twice thanks to hatred guard).

With this established, I'm immediately going to say I have no issue with the Hatred Install changes, I think there's room in the future to look at the increased timer on point + damage removal as a push towards a more sweeping change that moves HI from being near entirely a damage install (faster nail charge doesn't feel any more significant with the extended timer, the extra armour has always felt significant though). As HI currently stands it still feels like a significant super with decent enough reason to activate both on hit/block as a point super and DHC.

Going through the rest of the changes point by point

Hitbox changes
Absolutely magical, and taking me some time to get used to, Painwheel can now use 5mp and h buer to anti air far more comfortably. This was mentioned off offhandedly earlier by another user; but the increased viability of 5mp in conjunction with the increased difficulty of the reactive conversion it requires is going to be one of the changes that it will take longer to see the ramifications of. 5mp is a decidedly more appealing anti-air option now in a way that's actively altering my play patterns for the better
2lp change has been great for adding a bit of extra consistency to mixups that involve the character bouncing over painwheel, and the increased consistency added by l buer changes pushes the definition of "corner" for ending strings to the limit, I've frankly been shocked by the distances I've gotten 5mk > 5hp > l buer from post the patch. The L buer size increase has also let me use it as a psuedo M buer in neutral for crazy hits from pokes I've armoured through, which feels like a great stable reward. I think the changes to the affected moves hit the nail on the head.

Normals Frame changes
All of these feel good, too. 5lk change is a godsend for consistency. It's most certainly for the best that j.lp loses its current ability to rising overhead (with an easy conversion with flight cancel) but I don't think it would be too oppressive as a rising mid? The speed of j.lp right now feels really comfortable, and post pushblock there's a decently sized gap before painwheel can even land a fully committed flight cancel j.6mp, enough that many common meterless reversal options will cleanly beat the j.mp, and PW must be reactive to avoid being hit by assist calls (such as fast fall blocking annie Pillar or Hungern Rush). I really like the addition of this as an option in PW's kit and would love to use this as a rising mid to catch holding up back in the corner.

Specials Frame changes
L buer yummy, I can do 2mp l nails on squigly midscreen regardless of distance, no further comments.

Other Buer Reaper Changes
In love with the new meter gain, feels like a comfortable amount.
Reduced recover feels really good on moves people already weren't punishing at max distance, I'm feeling even better now about just throwing out l/m buer in conjunction with armour as opposed to autopiloting flight each time.

Hatred Guard Changes
My experience with these changes might be confirmation bias, and PW would have won most of these situations regardless, but this is another change that feels palpable now that it's been added to PW's kit properly, HG feels stronger than ever. The universal armor changes have also sullied any subconscious envy I might have had for other character's armour too, which is a nice little bonus that feels appropriate to tack on here.
If Hatred Install got any significant mechanical changes, I think it would be fun to see this active frame armour extended in install throughout the activity, while miniscule for most buttons, would be awesome on j.hp or 2.mp and possible even make for interesting assists in the same vein Annie's install 6hp is.

Accidental Flight
This change is shockingly one of the best feeling ones in her kit. Drops I would previously get the first 5/10 times a day on routes I was not comfortable with that were related to the negative edge buer reaper change don't happen, and I struggle to even intentionally replicate them, also has me feeling a lot more confident in my ability to get combos off of more scrambly conversions, where I would have managed to input fc > j.l buer over a 6j.lk.

Brief Snippet on Further Changes
Just because I saw this mentioned:
Even if it means, 22 + Punch button gives you 3 specific charged normals chosen by the dev team or she doesnt get non-charged normals
Even if this was just 2lp, 2mp, 2hp respectively with their full charge, I think charged 2mp and 2hp would be significant contenders for viable assist options on painwheel. Charged 2mp as a sort of faux butcher's blade that starts up mildly faster and won't inherently cause additional assist lockout, at the cost of range and lockdown effectiveness (this would also bring additional value to the properties of the final hit on airborn opponents, letting smaller chars run under on hit). Charged 2hp assist sounds really funny too.


Anyway, absolutely in love with what we got for painwheel, not desperate to see the DHC recovery backpedaled on too much, and very happy with where the damage is at. Thank you very much for these changes <3
 
With the current state of affairs, it feels like you are more incentivized to stay head-on - the nerfs were milder for it, and it is the much easier to execute stance.

Being quite honest, I would like to see some more hits to head-on in its current state, mostly related to damage and/or meter gain as those are tunings knobs that do not affect how good it feels to play a character, just how effective it feels. And maybe, very maybe a revert to 5HK being over 1k damage on headless for some slight damage gains?
A point I'd just like to bring to the table for discussions about head-on Fortune for this patch cycle is I think it's worth remembering how some of the current Fortune nerfs also indirectly nerf head-on's damage.

No rising jLK overhead removes the djLK jHK H Gato reset point, this gives a pretty massive boost in damage so its removal will have a not insignificant impact on head-on's 2 touch damage. Similarly, another big booster for head-on's damage is corner transition combos (and cLK loops being a source of high damage at higher scaling), so any nerfs to corner headless damage (particularly nerfs to decap attack) will also impact head-on corner damage.

Just some food for thought when we're discussing the interplay between head-on and headless. Imo nerfs targeting headless' use as basically a damage install for head-on in the corner without engaging with headless' wider gameplay are likely to result in head-on dominant gameplans being less prevalent, despite them being "Headless Nerfs". While nerfs to her neutral/pressure would make head-on more prevalent.

Unrelated to the above discussion but a couple other nerfs which I've mentioned before but I think are worth bringing up again as I think they'd be healthy for the game:
- IMO you should only get 1 Nom per combo, with the 2nd perhaps putting the opponent in an invincible state during the animation. 2xNoms is just boring to watch due to its length and, while this may hurt some niche sequences, it would serve to nerf Nom conversion damage in neutral since you can no longer do sHK L Fiber jMP M Gato Nom and have to do one of the less damaging alternatives.
- I still think headless' throw and airthrow should be advanced a stage. She's always going to be the best at high ud corner throw/burst loops while her throws remain in their current state due to how her combos work at high scaling and her ability to loop two full ground strings into the reset point. Personally I've never seen an issue with any of the other characters' max ud sequences (well... Maybe Beo with assist...) except Fortune due to these factors.
- Is Nom sending the head flying in a consistent direction (behind or in front of Fortune) still under consideration?
 
That would add 50 viable assists at once and be pretty bananas. Val sHKx3, PW c[HP], Ms. Fortune full rekka, Umbrella sMPx2, etc, come to mind.
Oh i would love that, Gonna bring so much creativity for a game that is already known for its incredible access to team building.but I understand that it must be a pain to code all of this out there, But it is something that would definitely be a lot of fun to have in the game.
 
A point I'd just like to bring to the table for discussions about head-on Fortune for this patch cycle is I think it's worth remembering how some of the current Fortune nerfs also indirectly nerf head-on's damage.

No rising jLK overhead removes the djLK jHK H Gato reset point, this gives a pretty massive boost in damage so its removal will have a not insignificant impact on head-on's 2 touch damage. Similarly, another big booster for head-on's damage is corner transition combos (and cLK loops being a source of high damage at higher scaling), so any nerfs to corner headless damage (particularly nerfs to decap attack) will also impact head-on corner damage.

Just some food for thought when we're discussing the interplay between head-on and headless. Imo nerfs targeting headless' use as basically a damage install for head-on in the corner without engaging with headless' wider gameplay are likely to result in head-on dominant gameplans being less prevalent, despite them being "Headless Nerfs". While nerfs to her neutral/pressure would make head-on more prevalent.

Yeah, I don't disagree with basically anything you said - and I do understand that some of the nerfs affect both forms in a more general way and that is probably what was intended.

There is also a 10% damage penalty for being head-on on all your normals (except HP ones) - that number can change to 15-20% and it would not affect headless damage at all, so there's an avenue for that to change. The point with my original post is not directly related to me thinking one form or the other is stronger, it is that I feel that when headless is not the prevalent damage mode, and playing neutral in head-on is much, much easier to execute, people will tend to stay head-on for entire matches.

I'm also not entirely invested in any of these directions in particular - I'll play headless regardless of the state we end up - I just heavily dislike that basically everytime I see Fortune on retail it is people that stay head-on for most of the match and head recall instantly when they accidentaly pop the head off, and the severity of the nerfs feel heavier for headless in the grand scheme of things.

(also yeah can we get consistent head direction pls)
 
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If it wouldn't be too much work, would it be possible for the 4/5/24 changes to cerecopter>dynamo autocorrecting to only apply after copter has hit at least 4 times, or only on the last hit? In retail with good timing you can get the autocorrect intentionally every time, which is useful for side switching.
 
This post might not have a great deal of poise. Just a couple things regarding Fortune discussion.

I just heavily dislike that basically everytime I see Fortune on retail it is people that stay head-on for most of the match and head recall instantly when they accidentaly pop the head off, and the severity of the nerfs feel heavier for headless in the grand scheme of things.
Being quite honest, I would like to see some more hits to head-on in its current state, mostly related to damage and/or meter gain as those are tunings knobs that do not affect how good it feels to play a character, just how effective it feels.

I think these are conflicting. Headless nerfs aimed to hit her neutral (cooldowns, ability to hit the head) were very warranted, which you agreed with! But especially now you would have to make Head-on feel much worse in order to force the risk-v-reward that is headless. I'm grateful to the dev team for testing several various nerfs in an attempt not to compromise either mode too strongly. Understandably, Fortune players would probably loathe what would entail with a primarily headless-centric goal.

(This is not to discredit the power that is hitting the head instead of recalling back to head-on. If players are deciding not to use their amazing pressure appropriately, then it is their loss.)

On the topic of their loss...
Unrelated to the above discussion but a couple other nerfs which I've mentioned before but I think are worth bringing up again as I think they'd be healthy for the game:
- IMO you should only get 1 Nom per combo, with the 2nd perhaps putting the opponent in an invincible state during the animation. 2xNoms is just boring to watch due to its length and, while this may hurt some niche sequences, it would serve to nerf Nom conversion damage in neutral since you can no longer do sHK L Fiber jMP M Gato Nom and have to do one of the less damaging alternatives.
- Is Nom sending the head flying in a consistent direction (behind or in front of Fortune) still under consideration?

It is a big nerf to want universal consistency by removing the consistent (if specific) sandwich-setup that are Nom shenanigans. This was brought up before. I implore headless players to think about how nice it is that there is another way to set up a sandwich position from a longer distances away. That kind of character awareness/knowledge [and the reward it gives] is a big aspect of puppet character design. Can we please avoid removing things that take some time to practice.

Returning back to [one Nom! per combo], it comes back to what is "niche but powerful", "niche but negligible", and "niche but too powerful".
(Nom! being where combos draw the line length-wise, in Skullgirls of all places, is a personal opinion that is what it is.)
The move was rightfully nerfed to lessen successful hits in neutral. Now, this nerf would primarily impact safejumps and resets involving Nom!, which are already heavily scaled but still given new incentives with dj jLK fully gone in all contexts. Let's not ask for bonus nerfs unprompted as we're feeling out the current changes.
 
This post might not have a great deal of poise. Just a couple things regarding Fortune discussion.




I think these are conflicting. Headless nerfs aimed to hit her neutral (cooldowns, ability to hit the head) were very warranted, which you agreed with! But especially now you would have to make Head-on feel much worse in order to force the risk-v-reward that is headless. I'm grateful to the dev team for testing several various nerfs in an attempt not to compromise either mode too strongly. Understandably, Fortune players would probably loathe what would entail with a primarily headless-centric goal.

(This is not to discredit the power that is hitting the head instead of recalling back to head-on. If players are deciding not to use their amazing pressure appropriately, then it is their loss.)

On the topic of their loss...


It is a big nerf to want universal consistency by removing the consistent (if specific) sandwich-setup that are Nom shenanigans. This was brought up before. I implore headless players to think about how nice it is that there is another way to set up a sandwich position from a longer distances away. That kind of character awareness/knowledge [and the reward it gives] is a big aspect of puppet character design. Can we please avoid removing things that take some time to practice.

Returning back to [one Nom! per combo], it comes back to what is "niche but powerful", "niche but negligible", and "niche but too powerful".
(Nom! being where combos draw the line length-wise, in Skullgirls of all places, is a personal opinion that is what it is.)
The move was rightfully nerfed to lessen successful hits in neutral. Now, this nerf would primarily impact safejumps and resets involving Nom!, which are already heavily scaled but still given new incentives with dj jLK fully gone in all contexts. Let's not ask for bonus nerfs unprompted as we're feeling out the current changes.
Sorry, I don't think you understood my point at all?

Both statements you quoted are in complete agreement - currently on retail, people play mostly head-on and neglect headless for the bigger part. Both headless and head-on got nerfed. I feel like the nerfs were lighter on head-on than headless. Therefore, I feel there is even less incentive for people to play/stay headless in comparison to before. Hence why I think head-on needs to get hit a bit more.

Is it clear enough now?
 
Sorry, I don't think you understood my point at all?

Both statements you quoted are in complete agreement - currently on retail, people play mostly head-on and neglect headless for the bigger part. Both headless and head-on got nerfed. I feel like the nerfs were lighter on head-on than headless. Therefore, I feel there is even less incentive for people to play/stay headless in comparison to before. Hence why I think head-on needs to get hit a bit more.

Is it clear enough now?
My observation to the quoted bit is that it'd be difficult to force a more headless-centric Fortune, given the tools that Head-On possesses. How Ms. Fortune is designed is different from other puppet characters. The tuning knobs are nice, but it would take some pretty substantial hits to head-on to shift players towards headless as the predominant mode. Considering the very justified nerfs to headless now, Head-On would look pretty bleak and would undoubtedly affect how head-on feels: the thing you wanted to avoid. Part of my argument is to retain some of what headless does well, such as the access to the funky sandwich setups and ability to double Nom. Thanks for the clarification.
 
My observation to the quoted bit is that it'd be difficult to force a more headless-centric Fortune, given the tools that Head-On possesses. How Ms. Fortune is designed is different from other puppet characters. The tuning knobs are nice, but it would take some pretty substantial hits to head-on to shift players towards headless as the predominant mode. Considering the very justified nerfs to headless now, Head-On would look pretty bleak and would undoubtedly affect how head-on feels: the thing you wanted to avoid. Part of my argument is to retain some of what headless does well, such as the access to the funky sandwich setups and ability to double Nom. Thanks for the clarification.
Yeah, I get what you are saying - and also, I totally agree on the fact that MF is very different from typical puppet characters - she feels more like a "stance" character instead, since playing headless is essentially a on-off switch, so the balancing is very thin.

And I see what you are saying - currently, I think we are much closer to what would be the ideal situation - where playing neutral on headless isn't as free as it was previously, but her pressure is still intact, and the post-hit mixup is worse in head-on with the rising jlk nerf. That being said, most of my argument is coming from the point of view that, because MF isn't a regular puppet character, as you mentioned, headless should just be the stronger mode in general since it adds execution barriers and more risk (by foregoing both meterless reversals and you lose decent chunks of health being hit on the head), so at least on how I see the character, the only thing missing is headless doing equivalent damage to head-on - and this could be achieved either by making head-on damage slightly worse than it currently is, or by boosting headless damage by a bit, whichever people think is better for the health of the game.

Ultimately, like I said previously, if this is the final version that we get I'm fine with it, usability has barely been touched and it still feels great playing headless so all good.

That being said, I mentioned previously and would like to give a random shoutout to it again, but I'd love to have at least some minor change to 2mk - I think except for a very specific corner route on light characters, this button serves no purpose other than to grief your combos when you do misinputs, lol.
 
And I see what you are saying - currently [...] at least on how I see the character, the only thing missing is headless doing equivalent damage to head-on - and this could be achieved either by making head-on damage slightly worse than it currently is, or by boosting headless damage by a bit, whichever people think is better for the health of the game.
A bonus, large shoutout to Ram for crunching the numbers early on and helping show that decap's damage changes were important to revisit. This one definitely comes down to giving her a little more time.
That being said, I mentioned previously and would like to give a random shoutout to it again, but I'd love to have at least some minor change to 2mk - I think except for a very specific corner route on light characters, this button serves no purpose other than to grief your combos when you do misinputs, lol.
Two small, but noteworthy purposes: An addition to the starter chains after resets causing head cooldown (hi, Sneeze resets!). 5MK hurts scaling too much, but omitting a MK button would not give the head enough time for Scratch > Zoom/Sneeze. Secondly, the pushback is convenient for setting up whiffed fiber ranges although this is sweaty and character specific. (Characters with thin, standing hitboxes such as Squigly or Fortune, or small crouchers like Val in the corner).
 
I'm cutting this post down to the 1 thing I feel most strongly about.

Currently it feels like fortune as a battery is hit very hard and it didn't seem like the goal was to completely remove this aspect of her. The nerf to rekka's meter gain on hit and the kara meter means both her front loaded meter gain and meter gain at max scaling is reduced a lot. Her ability to build meter off a stage 2 hit confirm went from exceptional to below average, this results in her not being able to quickly build a bar to DHC out of an awkward or low damage confirm. Fortune building ~70% meter from a full combo also feels low to me.
The damage nerfs means that even as a duo from a clean hit and reset she is not meterlessly 2 touching trios without pretty significant undizzy drain. This means that I'm either 3 touching to keep meter for squigly in the back or I'm spending meter to kill, which isn't a problem by itself but meterless 2 touches as a duo are still common and the 3 touches that fortune is doing doesn't result in getting significantly more meter.
Example: from a clean hit and ideal reset I can still 2 touch with squigly from round start conditions this ends with the opponent dead and me having ~2.1 meter. As fortune 3 touching I end with ~2.5 meter or I 2 touch and end with ~1.3 meter. The first case is similar to what most optimized duos are capable of. If fortune isn't going to 2 touch meterlessly I'm fine with that but I'd like it if she at least got a bit more meter for it.
I would like if rekka got a bit of meter back, since to me head on was for meter gain and headless was for damage. I think fortune would still be fine if she was just given this, but even if head on's damage got nerfed some more in exchange for this I think I would prefer having to always transition if I want to 2 touch as long as her 3 touch meter gain was closer to retail or the initial nerf numbers.
To close off I'll also add that I know these numbers are hard to get perfect since letting fortune build meter more quickly again lets her DHC into a damage engine mid, opening pandora's box of 3v3 round start 2 touches off any hit again.
 
RE, Install: if the install changes are intended to reduce her team damage and safety/combo-ability post dhc, can current beta install possibly be tested as a level 1 super?

I think she would benefit from being able to use her armor and nail buffs at neutral, and these and the increased damage would be a trade off for not accessing system mechanics such as dhc damage unscale (which come along with meter gain/denial benefits natural to unscaling on top of the added damage), AC, and metered reversals. If she is in install from 1 bar start, she will not have access to Thresher or DC for quite a while into the match). She has decreased metergain, which from my testing will have her at about .5 of a bar after a combo-install-reset-combo-kill setup. Both throw and low/high starters give this number. I think her metergain in install could be decreased further in install slightly, and her meter gain to the opponent slightly increased to compensate (maybe specifically on install buer's specifically?), to compensate.
Running the numbers (my PW routing is decent but not perfect), leaving out the disrespect hight damage option of install throw on l buer stagger that is techable:

From high/low starter, she is getting about ~8.8k to ~9k damage in 1.0, and about 7.5k damage from throw start, with full UD available. Please keep in mind these numbers would be 1 bar cost (as you need to be in install) in this hypothetical, they are currently 2 bar start in retail.

If she has an additional 1 bar, install deathcrawl adds another ~1.7k damage in 1.0, and install thresher adds an additional ~1.3k damage in 1.0. You can multiply these numbers by 1.3 for their approximate numbers in 1.3 ratio. These are the current beta numbers, and I believe the other PW players mentioned her damage in install decreased by about 1.5k in install, which I assume much came from the install super scaling changes)

The loss of routing with the new recovery hurts certain teams more than others, but if the idea is to push the dhc in line with other safe dhc options, I think tweaking install to play more into its point capabilities would do wonders for her. The change in meter cost also does not impact the dhc (1 cost) in any way as it currently is for install).

I know my bias is clear by now (that I think this would be incredibly fun to play with), but I think the reasoning and numbers are sound for it. The move has had rough times since its days as a level 3, but I think if the damage and safety are being reduced, this test would be good for seeing if point wheel can use it well enough.
 
The Install changes keeps coming up regarding changes in routing.
RE, Install: if the install changes are intended to reduce her team damage and safety/combo-ability post dhc, can current beta install possibly be tested as a level 1 super?

Wouldn't install being level 1 be a bit much? I personally view install as a strong aspect of the character but not the main tool that defines the character. I think making all these suggested changes to meter gain to justify level 1 install seems a bit backwards because if the character needs to be in install to be a strong point character, the character should have their normal tools adjusted (which has just happened and thats separate from the 3 additional seconds in install) and if Hatred Install DHC damage ~1.5k damage reduction and increased recovery really hurts her value to other characters, then I think her team value needs to be adjusted through other means like increased meter gain or assist options or if the recovery is greatly affecting the ability for most of the cast to convert, that needs to be adjusted, but still increased from before this patch. I think install being a level 2 and then being slightly weaker but still strong as a level 1 DHC is fine, especially seeing how it benefits strong characters who do not lack damage themselves.
 
RE, Install: if the install changes are intended to reduce her team damage and safety/combo-ability post dhc, can current beta install possibly be tested as a level 1 super?
Having a point/utility focused install does sound very fun so I'd be down to try it, install on point is definitely pretty underpowered right now (and always has been outside of the buer infinite). But if we're headed in a direction where point is her preferred position I think she would need a bigger rework to her overall kit along those lines and I'm not sure if I wanna see that.
 
Having a point/utility focused install does sound very fun so I'd be down to try it, install on point is definitely pretty underpowered right now (and always has been outside of the buer infinite).
Is there a reason you feel Install on point Painwheel feels underpowered? I feel like giving her solo conversions from M and H Buer, frame 1 armor on charge normals (that you can't die from), faster stinger charge times and so on makes it extremely good for painwheel and makes her threatening as a point character, especially with assists backing her up. Even just now as I went to the wiki to verify everything it does, its hard to come to the conclusion that install is only useful for damage/combo conversions.

I would love to turn this into a dialog about what other painwheel players feel like the character is lacking or why they feel she needs a rework or (in my opinion) insane buffs to be viable in this game. I feel shes a strong character with a few shortcomings who's biggest issue is that she's extremely dependant without contributing a lot to the characters she needs the most outside of DHC Install. You have to build a team around painwheel while most of the cast doesn't feel that way.
 

Painwheel

Changes to Painwheel was always going to have a lot of contention as Mike really did not care for this character and just threw on a band-aid solution to her then called it a day. Whenever I think about the act of drawing blood from stone I'm reminded of Painwheel. She is still paying for the sins of Sentinel. And so when the day comes to rip off the band-aid people will feel hurt, because we all had to make her work for our teams and everyone has their own different teams and playstyle when it comes to Painwheel.

To keep it short and sweet. Hitbox changes, Hatred Guard frame extension, Buer changes, the meter gain increase etc, are all good and I don't think there's much I can offer that hasn't already been said about how welcomed these changes are. If we ever had to give up some of the beta changes I would like the hitboxes and HG frames to remain as a bare minimum.

I love the changes overall and I understand why being cautious of her damage output is a thing. IMO, the hitboxes and HG armour bleed into point HI more than others give it credit for which I appreciate a lot as someone who uses point HI more than I probably should. Point HI still solo 2 touches on-hit in beta if you can claim the corner to end with IPS j.XBuer and very close without it (using assists will help bridge the kill).

I also wanted to compliment the additional 216 frames to the duration as I presume it was so she had more time to reset during her install state, and I do feel that in some of my matches despite not optimising it, but with gapped resets it can matter a lot.

In the hotfix that came out not too long after the patch fixed the recovery ruining Point conversions off HI and not DHC, which gives me the impression that the intention with this change was 2 fold: Making DHC HI on block less safe, and to make it harder for certain members of the cast that could connect into damaging DHC HI routes very well. Is this the case?

I do believe this specific change has hurt teams who relied on DHC HI routing for their gameplan and/or team order manipulation more than others who didn't care much for it at all (Fortune, Robo, Eliza, Band, etc As in they can still DHC HI in Beta like they can in Retail minus MF needing perfect frame DHC). 5LK having faster start-up does help conversions off DHC HI to mitigate the recovery for some members, but with the damage changes to the rest of HI I do believe this change does hurt Painwheel more in the long run, however, I do think there's a balance that can be struck between point Painwheel and DHC Painwheel.

A change that keeps the DHC HI recovery but also keeps team shells open could be adding more incentives to combo'ing into Painwheel's Tag? Most of the cast can do this (RIP Val unless lvl2 Green vial lol), and I think combo'ing into Painwheel's Tag is just cool. But with such limited time the easier choice is just lift some of the damage nerf values and let some Painwheel players have their cake and eat most of it IMO.

To keep this short, I don't know how to properly articulate appropriate DMG/Meter ratios because that would involve so much labbing for data samples and the philosophy of what is enough and what is not, in addition to teams that abuse it. I do not have that time. Gun to my head, I think lifting between 600-1000-ish damage off HI nerfs would be sufficient which should bleed into the DHC HI values. Ultimately just sounds like giving back the Deathcrawl scaling/damage and keeping the DHC HI Buer scaling nerfs.

Side note: Not to anyone specifically, but the ship for changes like 1 meter installs, new tools, routing pathways has long left port. It hurts me as-well because there was a time we could have had a more consistent and complete character but those days are long gone and the reality is we're even lucky enough to get this much for Painwheel and IMO this is as close as we're getting. Perhaps if there is a season 2 we could have a conversation on what Painwheel is and offers to the cast, but I have the impression the dev team are at gun point to push this maybe final balance patch and I think we're just going to have to suck compromise and eat humble pie. Give her back some damage for the DHC HI teams and reel the fishing line in IMO.

Fortune​

Personally, I'm feeling quite comfortable with her changes now. I'm still unsure where I sit on her Sneeze lock-out duration being increased, because she does lose her universal legacy midscreen throw route that uses Feral Edge into Sneeze, in a sense, and she loses some niche Sneeze routing in Headless but it really wasn't used anyway.

She can still make the Head-on throw > Ferale Edge work using M Fibre, however, this isn't as universal and requires 2 routes for different characters. But at the same time, I mostly prefer using throw reset during Headless anyway which is why I'm so perplexed about it. It may ultimately just be an indirect casualty for less oppressive neutral, but thought to mention it anyway in-case it wasn't known to others.

In closing,

Have some numbers, Nerds. :PUN:
PainSolo.pngPainTeam.png

Edit.
The spreadsheet itself isn't loading with this post, and I tried again but still doesn't work - sorry.
And for the damage values that use Ms. Fortune, be aware of her Head-on damage nerfs making a deviation of 300-ish damage give or take to account for in the data.
 
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I would love to turn this into a dialog about what other painwheel players feel like the character is lacking or why they feel she needs a rework
I guess I was the only one to be against any changes to her, I also never built my team around her, I have always played the characters I'm having fun with, I played VA/CE/RF then dropped Robo for her and have played VA/PW/CE, FU/PW/CE and now FI/PW/CE.

As for Hatred Install on point, I can't imagine using two bars to enter on a timed mode to get better nails and frame 1 armor. On hit it kind of makes sense because the damage potential from a reset is good but you are using 2 bars already on a not guaranteed hit. And as a DHC you either have the guaranteed hit or you are plus on block after a reversal oportunity and ready to go for that mix up that if hits does a lot of damage.

Painwheel is good, always has been, with the buffs grounded conversions with her are a lot easier (sometimes it feels too easy to just go for ground string LBuer, instead of having to confirm with 6HK).

To me this ideia of making Painwheel a better point doesn't make a whole lot of sense, we are not talking about Valentine getting assists buffed so she doesn't have to play as point 99% of the time. If someone wants to play Valentine as a mid or anchor they can just pick her as mid or anchor. If the nerfs to HI are supposed to bring its potential more in line with the power level of the game I'd be fine with it (not really but understandable). But if the goal is to make her preferable as a point I don't think that would be enough of a change for that to be a thing.

Also tag routes are nothing new, if you play Painwheel you should have your tag routes labbed, most of the time it will boost your combo damage and it is really good to test that with replay takeover (I love this btw tyvm for implementing it) and realise that you could save meter by doing it.

Overall I'm just more worried about her in team building, losing her best selling point will hinder building teams with her, gameplans exploiting her HI DHC damage potential are not as effective and on point she is doing nothing new besides being able to convert a few more hits into combos, she still has high damage, she is still a fly character and still has bad defense. So at the end of the day I don't quite understand what some Painwheel players want considering the character didn't change much.
 
Is there a reason you feel Install on point Painwheel feels underpowered? I feel like giving her solo conversions from M and H Buer, frame 1 armor on charge normals (that you can't die from), faster stinger charge times and so on makes it extremely good for painwheel and makes her threatening as a point character, especially with assists backing her up. Even just now as I went to the wiki to verify everything it does, its hard to come to the conclusion that install is only useful for damage/combo conversions.
Her neutral revolves primarily around jmp and fly and they're both unnaffected by install so it never feels very impactful. The biggest strength of install would be the frame 1 increased armor, but her regular armored offense is already extremely hard to contest so for that to be most significant you have to be already in a defensive position, which isn't where you wanna be regardless. Faster nails only really buff her ability to zone for a while which is pretty random and buer conversions don't make them any less risky (and H you can already always convert with thresher). In my experience, most of the time install in neutral just results in me trying to rush in and getting hit for it and or just playing the normal patient game and using up the full duration. Even if you get the hit its usually a scaled starter so you don't even get much value from the high damage right away. Since you don't get any new tools or really any new ways to get a hit, 2 bars feels like too big of an investment imo, even if the potential is really high on paper.

I would love to turn this into a dialog about what other painwheel players feel like the character is lacking or why they feel she needs a rework or (in my opinion) insane buffs to be viable in this game. I feel shes a strong character with a few shortcomings who's biggest issue is that she's extremely dependant without contributing a lot to the characters she needs the most outside of DHC Install. You have to build a team around painwheel while most of the cast doesn't feel that way.
I think she's plenty viable, even in retail. And I wouldn't say she's necessarily "dependant" either, her kit is just pretty disfunctional regardless. Weak defense, slow, awkward normals and this weird parry mechanic in a game where everything is too chaotic and uncertain to get consistent value, on top of hitboxes that often just refuse to work, and not to mention the low meterbuild. At the same time though, her strengths are VERY significant, being able to impose her own pacing in neutral is huge, you have one of the best safe dhcs and she's probably the most versatile damage engine in the entire game, and gives you some of the highest numbers too. With just the consistency fixes and metergain she's already in a much much better spot.

Also I really don't agree that you have to build a team around her, everyone likes a safe dhc and big damage, its just it feels hard to justify the pick since strong assists are so meta, and you'll be forced to actually play her at some point and will have to deal with the aforementioned issues. Its just a standard low tier pick situation, but if you really wanna play her its easy to get the value she offers.
 
on point she is doing nothing new besides being able to convert a few more hits into combos, she still has high damage, she is still a fly character and still has bad defense. So at the end of the day I don't quite understand what some Painwheel players want considering the character didn't change much.
Really, really dont agree with this. Having a solid AA that you can reliably beat multihits changes a lot of her worst matchups for the better. 7f 5LK makes many previously very annoying or otherwise impossible punishes easier/possible. jLP and jMK are way scarier in neutral and as mixup tools. The changes to armor makes it way more threatening and I've already gotten so many hits i would have exploded for before in retail. Thresher also feels fantastic as a reversal and twitch reaction now that you cant just counter-super it from 1 inch away. She can now do the jH-buer FC3 otg jMK 2LP reset on both the cats, who historically have had some of the worst reset options for her in the entire cast. This all adds up along with being significantly more consistent on conversions to make her meaningfully better on point, imo.


One bit of QoL i would like to see that hasnt been mentioned here yet is the consistency of her flight hurtboxes, Her feet dip down depending on the direction you fly and can lead to her getting clipped at max height for some directions but not others by things such as L-luger, lenny, and Marie's beams. I'd really like for her to have one static hurtbox for flight


I do think that losing conversions on HI because of the extra recovery kinda sucks, but even as someone known for exploiting SSJ>install I think i can live with it having the same counterplay on block as every other safe DHC (other than robo lvl 3, but thats a lvl 3) which is AC>SSJ/360/fenrir. If they have the team comp and want to spend 2 bars to negate my own 2 bars, thats fair.

Overall I'm really happy with this patch, painwheel feels like so much less of a headache to play now.
 
The Install changes keeps coming up regarding changes in routing.


Wouldn't install being level 1 be a bit much? I personally view install as a strong aspect of the character but not the main tool that defines the character. I think making all these suggested changes to meter gain to justify level 1 install seems a bit backwards because if the character needs to be in install to be a strong point character, the character should have their normal tools adjusted (which has just happened and thats separate from the 3 additional seconds in install) and if Hatred Install DHC damage ~1.5k damage reduction and increased recovery really hurts her value to other characters, then I think her team value needs to be adjusted through other means like increased meter gain or assist options or if the recovery is greatly affecting the ability for most of the cast to convert, that needs to be adjusted, but still increased from before this patch. I think install being a level 2 and then being slightly weaker but still strong as a level 1 DHC is fine, especially seeing how it benefits strong characters who do not lack damage themselves.

Ill address each point in turn.

No I don’t think level 1 install would be too strong, based upon the data I provided. As I mentioned going install locks you out of system mechanics due to the loss in access to additional meter, so it is an option to buff herself and use her strengths to their max.

There was 1 suggestion to meter changes (that i made), and that was for beta install buers to add slighly more meter to the opponent (like minimal possible per hit) and to gain slightly less meter. Keep in mind that if you “meterlessly” (install costs meter to opt into) kill with 2 touches, you end with .5 bar currently, as opposed to the 3 bars you would end on with two resets into a kill.

Never said she needs install on point to be a good character, I just think she should have this because it sounds both fun and good for point pw.

She already has meter buffs and tons of hitbox buffs in current beta, so unsure what this was referring to.

I think install benefits all of the cast greatly currently, I think beta install is barely worth the meter (especially obvious on characters that dont get combos post dhc, or much worse ones).

Also a thing everyone needs to keep in mind hatred installs damage is a buff, not outright, it requires UD to actually get damage out of it, which is technically worse than damage dhcs. This is on top of current retail installa damage coming from the unscaled supers, that is mostly gone.

Beta install DC does approximately as much as cannon/argus/fenrir dhc unscaled at full UD, but the difference is that you needed to spend a additional meter (2 total cost) and lose meter gain to use it, so I think beta install DC is more than fair.

I think beta install is worse if not bad comparitively to retail, and at level 1 would remain being a great super. Thresher is much better now, dc is marginally better, level 3 is itself (?), and I think installs can and should be good personally
Having a point/utility focused install does sound very fun so I'd be down to try it, install on point is definitely pretty underpowered right now (and always has been outside of the buer infinite). But if we're headed in a direction where point is her preferred position I think she would need a bigger rework to her overall kit along those lines and I'm not sure if I wanna see that.
I dont think she needs a rework. With current beta tests, I think HI being a level 1 would be fine (I think the damage nerfs based on current trends of changes makes sense, as she enabled many easy 3 bar ToDs that did not require resource characters and specific assists, still think beta recovery change on dhc is cap but its just difference of opinion at that point), and the character would be fine. I still think retail install made sense, as her assists outside H pinion with band are bad to mediocre at best imo.

Is there a reason you feel Install on point Painwheel feels underpowered? I feel like giving her solo conversions from M and H Buer, frame 1 armor on charge normals (that you can't die from), faster stinger charge times and so on makes it extremely good for painwheel and makes her threatening as a point character, especially with assists backing her up. Even just now as I went to the wiki to verify everything it does, its hard to come to the conclusion that install is only useful for damage/combo conversions.

I would love to turn this into a dialog about what other painwheel players feel like the character is lacking or why they feel she needs a rework or (in my opinion) insane buffs to be viable in this game. I feel shes a strong character with a few shortcomings who's biggest issue is that she's extremely dependant without contributing a lot to the characters she needs the most outside of DHC Install. You have to build a team around painwheel while most of the cast doesn't feel that way.
Because 2 meter is a high cost, on top of the meter gain loss. Do you think no painwheel players understand the point benefits of install, and are just choosing not use it? In a realistic setting playing the character, using level 2 install weakens your team, removes access to additional meter for universal defensive mechanics, on top of the meter cost. Opportunity cost is whats at play in retail, and her adding certainty in eraly kills means less chances for the opponent to live

Even with the metergain boost on buers, these add approximately 10-20% meter on a full bnb (emphasis on full combo), maybe even less I can run this number later. This means you would approximately ~6 to ~7 meterless combos in base PW mode for this additional meter gain to offset you going into install at 2 meter, if that was the idea here (keeping in mind she currently builds .5 bar after 1-3 resets in HI mode currently)
 
3.6.7 live:

This is close to a potential version that could be finalized and released on consoles. Tutorials have also been updated with proper text speaking to the changes, and new sections have been added / tweaked (that really took awhile and prevented me from getting to other balance changes, ah well...).
 
Changes to Painwheel was always going to have a lot of contention as Mike really did not care for this character and just threw on a band-aid solution to her then called it a day. Whenever I think about the act of drawing blood from stone I'm reminded of Painwheel. She is still paying for the sins of Sentinel. And so when the day comes to rip off the band-aid people will feel hurt, because we all had to make her work for our teams and everyone has their own different teams and playstyle when it comes to Painwheel.
It's sad that PW is still paying for the sins of the Former Lead Dev's disdain. I was really hopeful that HV would have given her some real attention over the Season 1 dev time, like several others have received. But I guess it makes sense to only change things that would appeal to players already gone nose blind to her faults and to work on newer characters that roughly fill the same need
 
I really don't want to sound passive aggressive, but I'm extremely curious to know who is complaining about Marie (and not just "up up and away" meta in general) that is still warranting more and more nerfs to her as these updates go on.

We have two zoners that do what she does better (not that I want Marie to be another Robo or Peacock), very limited reset options (especially on her own), poor defense (especially after the nerf to H tackle), and not so great pressure options if she ends up in your face. I understand the desire to get away from "up up and away" meta, but currently I don't really see a point to picking up this character, and especially not instead of the other two zoners in the game.

I also understand that comparing her to the two zoners is probably something I shouldn't be doing, as she isn't exactly a zoner, and just has better fullscreen (and "up up and away") options than the average character, but if we're trying to deviate from "up up and away", while nerfing her defensive tools (H tackle) and any reason she has to get in front of your face (forced scaling and damage nerfs on H Hilgard Punch, which makes resetting with her less appealing), and then also nerfing her fullscreen options, which is all she has at this point, it's just making her a worse and worse character overall.

I would honestly like to see her offense and defense buffed if it results in her doing this less. It has counterplay in the same way that robo doing heli attack 3 neutral does, but it feels both harder to catch and more rewarding for marie with the KD on laser.
I would LOVE to see what a Marie with improved offense and defense would look like in exchange for less "up up and away", though with the below being the initial intention for the character, I'm not sure she'd end up ever going in the "improved offense and defense" direction.

She is/was intended to be floating a lot above you and doing a lot of summons to control space, then charge in behind them when favorable to do so
Again as mentioned previously (Tarrasq also brought this up in an earlier post), she really has no reason to engage the opponent (even when her summons are out). I understand the idea behind the intended playstyle, but the Marie we have now does not execute this very well imo.

In terms of specifics, I'm honestly not sure where I'd begin (other than at the very least reverting the nerf to H Tackle armor, not sure if 3 hits of armor would be too much, but only 1 hit of armor is terrible) and I'd have to think a bit more on that. I can't say I know at the moment what a balance would be to allow her to execute the "charge in behind summons when favorable to do so" strategy, versus just continuing to summon and go up up and away. The only reason I'm still sticking with her is hope that something will change about her (and I love Marie as a character, not so much as a function right now), and I'm hoping others have specific suggestions in mind.
 
Agreed with the general sentiment that Marie needs something more in light of the additional nerfs. People were abusing taunt bunnies and up, up, and away because she didn't really have much else. I love her as a character and I like playing her, but I think she feels fairly weak compared to the other season pass characters and most of the cast more generally. If she still had the damage that she did on Beta before her retail release it'd be a different story, but...

If taunt bunnies are going to be worse and she's not going to be able to call assists at SJ height (which I think is reasonable to align with the rest of the cast, if a bit harsh for how she works currently) then she should probably get back some of what she lost on the last beta passes before she hit retail.

If there's anything I'd wish for, it'd be for the scaling on Hilgard's M/H punches to be pulled back (maybe 90/80% for M/H?) or removed outright (already very thankful that L punch doesn't scale anymore) to improve her resets/combo damage and for her to get another hit of armor back on H Go Round to improve her weak defense.

EDIT: My friend (who really loves Marie) also thinks that she should have more projectile invulnerability on L Go Round to make it viable as an anti-projectile tool. I haven't had a need for this myself, but I thought I'd mention it.
 
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Marie ramblings bc I've been playing her a bunch
I think the Marie changes are probably very healthy long term, the current air times seem a lot more reasonable (you honestly don't lose that much stall time) and you can still be annoying just not as annoying, also if they get hit by the lasers you pick up easier now

On the flip side it does feel like being annoying top of screen keep away was the only good thing she had in neutral. It was super cheesy and cringe but the best, sometimes only good thing, for her to do in a lot of scenarios, because her ground buttons are bad numberwise and generally pretty committal, and her great air buttons are a bit limited in threat range bc her run take time to get up to speed so her dash jump range isn't gigantic

Worry that it's harder to justify picking her over robo or val now I guess, think she needs something movement related to compensate for less air stall

ALSO it is again probably healthy for no assist calls after jmk, but it's crazy that Marie loses it after 2 months but robo has had jhk assist call for 10 years
 
Regarding replay takeover, can pressing select to set the state / reset the state also reset the attack data damage counter to 0? I've been using it to try different combos and compare their damage, but it seems to carry over from previous states in inconsistent ways I can't really understand.
 
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