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Beast's Fury - Updates & Discussion

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I like how open you are being to all this! I haven't had to much time to mess around in the demo for any real feedback, but it definately feels more fluid. However, I feel there could still be some visual effects, like counter flashes and such, but I'm guessing those are to come later?
 

Some strange glitches I found:

*Don's servants from the intro still move, even when paused.
*Don starts sliding during one of his grab attacks after the shoulder tackle.

*Edit: Sorry for the video clipping.
 
North888 said:
I'm guessing those are to come later
Yeah a LOT of effects are going in, possibly in the next version, placeholder effects to show intent but effects nonetheless.

SkullMan said:
*Don's servants from the intro still move, even when paused.
*Don starts sliding during one of his grab attacks after the shoulder tackle.
Yeah other things keep moving like the trees and petals in the village stage, didn't know about the goons, thanks.
And the sliding mako is on my list too, will be fixed in v6b very soon.
 
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Didn't have nearly enough time to work on it this week but here's version v7a
http://www.evildogserver.com/share/BeastsFuryDemo_v7a_READ_RELEASE_NOTES.zip

Release Notes:
- Added back the "round", "fight!", etc texts in the game.
- Prevent pausing during the start of the round and the end of the round.
- Fixed Player 2 input display.
- Only allow fury mode on the third round (unless hack is active) as intended in the design.
- Fixed throw tech and handling grab connects.
- Reworked how pushback from air attacks is handled to have the intended results.
- Fixed transition between crouched block and standing block
- Fixed combo being counted when you block the first hit.
- Prevent gaining fury during fury mode.
- Tweaked Don's mako hit effect placement to be better but still not final.
- Shifted vincent's fury mako hit so the leg is in Don's hand. Still not final
- Fixed combos in grab attacks like Don's Thresher Trash.
- Added sounds on Don's upgraded jump heavy punch
- Tweaked Don's height
- Tweaked Don's J. HP to have less push back since it's a downward attack
 
- Fixed interrupting the landing with jumping and walking.
Why was this change necessary? Every fighting game that isn't MK allows you to cancel your landing frames into walking/forward dashing/back dashing. And even MK allows you to cancel landing frames into more jumps. Even worse, now you have to wait for your landing recovery to end until you can do your next attack. So now empty jumps lose their value. For reference, a 7 frame throw is like a 10 frame throw after landing, and a 5 frame jab is now a 8 frame jab after landing. By jumping forward and choosing not to do an attack that hits high when the opponent is expecting one, you are no longer at an advantageous position for doing something the opponent doesn't expect. Instead, you're now at frame disadvantage and any attack you can throw in this situation can be beaten by the opponent's jabs.

- Added camera shake to Vincent's heavy attacks
Camera shake is good, but it's not timed right. The shake happens after the sound effect and when Vincent is already in the middle of recovery frames.

Consider the projectile inactive when its explosion is done, which prevents spamming projectiles.
The cooldown period is too long and unnecessary if you just made the light and medium fireballs have the same amount of recovery as the heavy version.

Other things:
-Input display can only show Throw and Fury as simultaneous inputs.
-Vincent's super puts him a character distance away on hit and block, instead of ending up at point blank. This makes it harder for follow ups and essentially makes it safe on block.
-Vincent's s.hk looks more like a ballerina twirl than a spinning hook kick. Granted it's missing start up frames and in-betweens, but still. It looks off.
-Add start up frames for all air normals. I shouldn't be able to hit Don in the shins with Vincent's j.hk.
-The hit sparks for Vincent's j.lk, j.lp, j.mk, j.hp and j.hk are lower than where the foot/arm/fist really is.
-Don's delayed j.hk still goes through the floor
-jumping, holding forward, and delaying j.hk gives you j.hk instead of sharknado. Again a problem with not storing inputs.
-What's the design decision behind Hammerhead if it doesn't knockdown, move him forward drastically, allow combos to continue after, or have armor? For a grappler type character this move serves very little purpose. It's easily telegraphed and whiffs on crouchers. i.e. duck on reaction, whiff punish, combo. kill.
-normals should logically cancel into tiamat knuckle if :B::UB::U::UF::F: motion was used. Still strongly advise turning the motion for it into a qcb+p.
-
At the cost of 1 bar I can do almost 50%. And I can keep going. After L fireball, link s.hp xx tiamat knuckle, neutral jump j.hk s.hp xx fire ball s.mp, back mp, s.hp xx Leviatian kick. Haven't tested damage for that, but it's probably 70% for one meter. The combo in the vid generates half a bar, so the rest of the combo probably builds up another half. Since this combo requires one meter, the max net gain is an entire meter, and the minimum net gain is half a meter. This is of course assuming that meter gain doesn't scale. Now for the important questions: What is your ideal damage percentage for one combo? How is the damage scaling supposed to work?

To quote Mike in another fighting game thread,
And you are also confusing number of hits, the newbie's metric of combo difficulty or intricacy, with damage, the designer's metric of relative character strength. Hits are completely irrelevantfrom a design standpoint. A 143-hit combo from Cable can kill you in MvC2, or a 6-hit combo from Juggernaut can kill you. And that 143-hit combo can be 3 moves (the same 40-plus-hit move 3 times), whereas the 6-hit combo from Juggernaut is also 3 moves. The only relevant parts are that both can kill you, as well as the resources and range required to land them.
An infinite in Melty wouldn't kill you, it runs out the clock; an infinite in XSF will kill you. A good combo in SG, those long ones you say "crush all hopes of a comeback", does a bit under half a lifebar worth of damage and costs at least 1 bar of meter for that and giving the opponent at least 1 bar in return; a good combo in MvC3 kills your character, while giving you more meter than you had when you started it.
-
-
 
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Fedora_Ninja said:
cancel your landing frames
I agree with that, we changed that to fix some other issues where you could instantly do something, it also looked ugly. Now it looks good but slows down the gameplay. We'll find a middle ground. It's still on our list of issues.

Fedora_Ninja said:
Camera shake is good, but it's not timed right
Again, I agree, camera shake is not updated during hitstops, probably should, when I check SF4 they have really short shakes at impact. Not sure where we'll end up on that end.

Fedora_Ninja said:
The cooldown period is too long and unnecessary if you just made the light and medium fireballs have the same amount of recovery as the heavy version.
We're pretty happy with how it is right now. Everything is still on the table though.

Fedora_Ninja said:
Other things
Thanks, added that list to my list. I already see some that already on the list and some that are by design (like going through the floor with late air attacks, that's wanted atlhough some "underfloor" levels might be adjusted on a per-attack basis)

Fedora_Ninja said:
To quote Mike
Yeah we know that and intend to display the % of damage. Was that your point?
 
Also suggest that with each new build you update the first post since it says "latest build here:" and it's stuck on ver.5

Evil-Dog said:
We're pretty happy with how it is right now. Everything is still on the table though.
When it comes to "spamming" fireballs, there's a distinct rhythm involved so that the "spammer" can fire away at the fastest rate possible. However, start up and recovery of the fireball makes it so that there are unsafe distances where the opponent can just jump over them and score a free combo. With the lesser recovery of MP/LP fireballs, there's very little risk of throwing fireballs at close/mid range. And enforcing an arbitrary cooldown longer than the startup and recovery of 2 jabs is unreasonable and feels stiff. There's already a limit to "only 1 fireball on the screen" and those things don't leave the screen fast enough.

Evil-Dog said:
Was that your point?
No the point was that I can do a over 50% damage combo with very little cost of resources (1 bar meter) and the combo itself generates that resource back. If I don't even spend the meter, I do a 40% combo that nets half a bar of meter and ends up in front of the opponent's face with frame advantage, and I get a free mixup. This is a problem. Damage and meter gain needs to scale as the combo goes on longer. High damage combos should at least make the player think about if it's worth using all these resources for damage or go for other options (resets, okizeme, whatever). And note that this 50% combo automatically makes Vincent a far more superior character to Don, who can't get nearly as much damage from one touch.

The quote was to reinforce the need to reevaluate damage and resources. The 143 hit Cable combo is really a full screen super 3 times. However it requires doing a Tiger Knee motion at precise timing and blows off three meters. Juggernaut's 3 move kill is a jump in, hit confirm into super, but requires Juggernaut's slow ass to get in and hit a grounded opponent while Magneto/Storm/Sentinel stay flying.

and again I ask what is your ideal percentage of damage for a max damage combo.
 
He is asking you what your intended average damage per combo is.
What % of their health bar is missing after you perform an average combo on someone with full health.

AKA Is the damage, meter gain, and positioning he is getting off his combos, intended by the developer.
 
Fedora_Ninja said:
ideal percentage of damage for a max damage combo
I don't know, I program the game, damage input and stuff will be tweaked with testing and balancing by Andrew the game designer. Too early to nitpick that kind of stuff
 
uhm, I'm sorry but isn't figuring out the average combo damage % to meter gain one of the more important things to have figured out when making a fighting game, especially when it is in early development? That having that figured out you will have an easier time building your combo system to help prevent having broken combos that will give too much rewards to the player when spending meter in a combo. If combos like that are in the game then it completely breaks all balance between characters and it just boils down to who can hit who first. ( This is the same problem in MvC3 were any character can kill any other character at very low cost [or sometimes profit] in resources. ) It's all about Rewards vs Cost, it's present in most fighting games. heck just take look at Street Fighter were the more complex and damaging combos have you spending 2 bars or more in meter to extend or be able to combo off of moves that would normally not be able to. and the meter gain quickly scales as that combo continues. Same thing Skull Girls, KoF, GG with the roman cancels, this a vital part of what makes your game playable and help build around your combo system. So i don't think it's something to "nitpick" over but something you and Andrew really need to talk about because if you were to release Beasts Fury with this type of cost vs reward in one combo it could change what you guys originally visioned in the pacing of the matches and how players use their characters in that match.
 
Ninja said:
isn't figuring out the average combo damage % to meter gain one of the more important things to have figured out when making a fighting game
Probably pretty important indeed, I'm in talks with Andrew about that. Nitpick was not the right word, I meant that this is all in progress as we build the game, still adding combat features. So all feedback is good but feedback about things like this attack does too much damage or too little, it's good feedback but I'd classify it as nitpicking, not in a bad way, we're still taking it and applying the changes when we agree. I don't believe you can make a fighting game on paper, so it's all a process of building and testing and refining. So if someone wants to go indepth about what we have to do now before other things I'd just say make your own damn game haha, otherwise offer your feedback and we welcome it :)

But yeah, bottomline is that combos are in our line of sight right now, everything everyone says goes in my todolist for review and discussion, so don't misconstrue what I say for brushing off feedback, cause it's definitly not, I take it aaaaalllll in even when I won't or can't discuss it indepth here, cheers.
 
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A relatively small new update with v8b (includes v8a)
PC: http://www.evildogserver.com/share/BeastsFuryDemo_v8b_PC.zip
Mac: http://www.evildogserver.com/share/BeastsFuryDemo_v8b_Mac.zip
Linux: http://www.evildogserver.com/share/BeastsFuryDemo_v8b_Linux.zip

See release notes in spoiler section:
### v8b ###

Fixes:
- Fixed distance between fighters to prevent being stopped midway in the stage.
- Handle crumple moves and "hard" crumple moves for Vincent's tiamat and giga tiamat on already crumpled, juggled and midair opponents.
- Allow camera shake during hit stops.
- Add finisher hit bar and special sounds for hits during fury mode.
- Crouched issues when triggering the fury mode.
- Fixed the win with a draw timeout when you already have a win.
- Make adrenaline bar flash when you can activate it, when you're activating it and when it's failed.
- Added default controls for all supported controllers
- Added new placeholder particle effects for jumping, dashing, specials, etc, not final, just a first pass.
 
Fedora_Ninja said:
So counter hits. k. Please normalize the rules on counter hits so that they're consistent for all characters. Only specials should have special rules on effects on counter hit.

As for the other thing, scrolling up and down in the menu requires using the analogue instead of the d pad for which I mapped up/down/left/right to, which means that it ignores the custom controls.

Agreed. Adding special rules for every special move counter hit situation is a really convoluted system. Time doing that is time that could be spent somewhere else in the development process. Counterhits should be universal: either they give you more hitstun, they give a crumple state*, more damage, etc., but they shouldn't be on a move by move basis.

*I'd really advise against this because getting a counterhit DP as a reversal and having it crumple your opponent while you are in the air is just one example of why this won't work.
 
FuLLBLeeD said:
Adding special rules for every special move counter hit situation is a really convoluted system
Not sure I agree with that, flattening counterhits to a single mechanic is pretty boring. If you can know your character well and able to counter the other with the appropriate move then you've got new strategies and openings. There will probably be a common base for counter hits but some moves will have counter atributes. Maybe just the specials like Fedora_Ninja said. To be seen.
 
Moves having special attributes upon counter hits doesn't seem like to bad of an idea, so long as it doesn't get too crazy. I'd say some extra damage and maybe extra stun time...maybe a bit extra meter. Now, there was mention of counter hit situations, I'd say just apply special bonuses to certain moves when you perform a counter hit with them, and that'd be good enough. Going too crazy might just make things convoluted :/

Of course, this is coming from someone who's still working on understanding all the core mechanics of fighting games in general, so anything I say should be taken with a grain of not-so salty salt.
 
Special coutner hit states is nothing new, most 3D games do it (luanches only on counterhit for example), Arc Sys games do it etc.

Try to avoid situations like Xrd Slayer's 2HS though, which on normal hit pops up with enough hitstun only for a 5P, but on counterhit sends them flying into the air such that anything will work, but the 5P will whiff giving you essentially no time to confirm.
 
I actually don't even agree with my suggestion that specials should have counter hit effects.

Evil-Dog said:
flattening counterhits to a single mechanic is pretty boring
Consistent mechanics =/= boring. Consistency in rules allows people to easily understand the mechanics without having to remember anything character specific. If a standing fierce suddenly caused a crumple or wallbounce on counter hit, then new players would consider it to be random and would wonder why that happened.

Here's a list of a few games' counter hit rules. I refrained from including Arc Sys games since I'm not familiar with the special counter hit states per character. May come off as cherry picking but meh. Still you'll see that consistency is a continued theme in counter hit rules.
Skullgirls:
  • 1.5x damage multiplier on the first hit
  • -30/50/100 drama (the mechanic that determines the combo length) depending on strength/type of hit.
  • This means potentially longer, more damaging combos.

Melty Blood Actress Again Current Code:
  • Ground Counterhit
    • Increased hitstun
  • Air counter hit
    • Counter hit opponent freezes in the air a half second, and continues to fall in a juggle state until he/she hits the floor in an untechable knockdown state.
  • This allows combos that aren't normally possible, possible and punishes players that love air dashing too much. Lest they eat a counterhit anti-air and a full combo.

CvS2:
  • 20% damage increase on counterhit
  • Increased hit stun
    • New combos that aren't normally possible are possible.

Street Fighter 4
  • +1 frame of hit stun on light attacks, +3 frames on medium and hard attacks.
  • 25% extra damage on first hit
  • lvl1 focus attack crumples on counter hit. Lvl2 and Lvl3 versions don't have this effect since they crumple on hit already
  • Projectile moves only reward you a Counter Hit if you hit the opponent before the Projectile is produced. Some moves cannot be Counter Hit at all because invincibility frames cover up all of the Startup Frames. Thus, the move can never be hit in Startup. Zangief's Double Lariat and Rufus's EX Messiah Kick are two examples of this. (copied from the SRK wiki)

Yatagarasu
  • Doesn't have conventional counterhit mechanics. Instead has Button Locking Counter Hits(BLCH) and High Jump Counter Hits.
  • BLCH
    • Occurs when opponent attempts to Button Lock (aka parry) an attack but fails and times it incorrectly.
    • Opponent suffers 1.5x damage through entire BLCH state, increase frame disadvantage when hit while grounded, and/or being hit airborne will result in a non-air recoverable launcher.
    • Additionally, depending on the attack used, the offender will trigger unique properties for specific attacks upon a successful BLCH. E.g. Hanzo's Jumping HK or Chadha's Standing HP as an Air BLCH hit will produce a ground bouncing effect. (copied from the Yatagarasu Mizumi page)
    • In other words, this game is merciless to those who suck at parrying. Especially in the air, where you're just giving them a free high damage combo if you fail. Here, I'm ok with the special effects on counter hits cuz it further pours salt on the fact that they screwed up a parry.
  • High Jump Counter Hit
    • Performing a high jump will leave a character in a special counter hit state for the entire duration of the high jump. Being hit at any time during the high jump will result in double damage being dealt to the target. (also copied from the Yatagarasu Mizumi page)

On another note regarding the cooldown period for fireballs, I continue my insistance on normalizing the start up and recovery of all light medium and heavy versions of fireball.
I also throw out these videos relevant to zoning design:


In the second video, over 270 fireballs were chucked by both players total. This includes supers, ultras, ex fireballs, and fireball start up animations that were stuffed. If you take out the special occasions, it's still over 200+ fireballs in under 10 minutes. Despite this, the set maintained hype, fast-paced matches where there were continuous demonstrations of options to overcome "spamming." Your Don vs Vincent match up currently offers nothing in that respect. Zangeif can at least lariat to let projectiles go through him, or use green hand to nullify the projectile.

If there were an arbitrary cooldown period in SF4 equivelant to your current settings, the best options would be to simply block and get in since the opponent can't develop a rhythm for chucking plasma. But then that would mean the Daigo vs Alex Valle match would slow down since the fireball pressure is nullified and ultimately it would slow down to a continuous game of footies and holding on to the life lead.
 
Oh hey they're not dead. Btw the vid is marked yesterday, May 7th 2015. Not May 1st.

......and they still kept the MK back-forward motion for a special that should be a qcb and line up his super as a qcb motion so it's more of a powered up version of the special
and they made don's command grab a HCB when that motion isn't going to help new players.
and triggering fury mode is still 4 buttons when it could just be MP+MK.

and now triggering finishers requires just slapping them enough times before the timer goes out. How do multi-hitting moves and throws apply to this rule?

So what else is new after all this time?

Edit: Checked their FB page. Looks like they're using a statistics tracking system Infinario to help testing and compete for 100k Euros.

https://www.facebook.com/BeastsFuryGame/videos/796319263797960/
https://www.facebook.com/BeastsFuryGame/posts/796343393795547

Edit MORE: Patch notes
### v9b ###

Fixes:
- Added options in the pause menu to toggle sound, music and more options in the training mode (show inputs, infinite fury and adrenaline)
- Fixed GUI glitch for the special meter
- Added more Infinario tracking


### v9a ###

Fixes:
- Added move lists and controller help in pause menu
- Added first rough version of a training mode selectable in the main menu
- Fixed input issues with Windows 8
- Integrated Infinario tracking system for game balancing and contest

Edit Act Cadenza: The feedback
In General:
Don't feel anything new gameplay wise, which is a shame. Honestly coming back to this, the game feels stiffer than MKX. Landing from a jump forces to you watch the landing frames before you can more forward or back. You can only cancel landing frames with an attack or crouching. There is no input buffer for ground attacks just before landing; you have to wait for the specific timing where your character hits the ground. There's still an arbitrary cooldown period before you can chuck another fireball after hit/block/whiff, making zoning non existant. They jump one fullscreen fireball and you're forced to play the neutral game. Oh and loading times are still a problem.

Controls:
-Control map is confusing and assumes default layout for fightstick. Does nothing for alternative controllers, esp. pad/keyboard/hitbox
-No way to re-map keyboard controls. Not everyone can afford controllers.

Training mode:
Rough training mode is rough.
-Need a bare minimum stage with a grid-like back ground, damage values, and multiple settings for any training option other that off/on.
-no dummy recording/playback
-no option to reset positions.
-Having "Fury" be the name for your meter and "Adrenaline" the name for the Fury mode Gauge is CONFUSING AS ALL HELL. Just say "meter" and "fury mode."

Menus:
-Need to separate training options from audio settings, cuz right now everything is under one options menu.
-There's a return to main menu button, but there's still no in-game "quit game/return to desktop" menu option anywhere.
 
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Fedora_Ninja said:
So what else is new after all this time?
Not much, a bit of a hiatus on my dev time
And yeah we're trying that Infinario contest, would help us progress another good notch

Right now on my plate is rework the juggle system to feel better and integrate the 2-3 missing Don moves
 
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So they're up at Ver. 9d now.

### v9d ###

Fixes:
- Fixed hitbox on vincent's crouching heavy punch
- Fixed inconsistency between animation and data for Don's standing and crouching MK
- Refixed the win message still being visible at the end of the fight.
- Fixed Don's Sharknado not generating adrenaline and instead generating fury.
- Tweaked Don's thresher trash grab boxes
- Fixed glitch when killing opponent with multi hit grab attacks.
- Fixed dust effects getting stuck.

### v9c ###

Fixes:
- Compressed textures to use much less ram
- Randomized default selection in the character select
- Implemented basic counter hit mechanics with extra hit stun
- Tweaked some of Don's hit stuns
- Fixed some faulty Infinario trackings
- Added many more Infinario trackings
 
I'm testing it again, I'll post my current thoughts here.

- In general feels a lot better

- Tiamat Knuckle is still 46... this is an issue and I'm kinda disappointed with it. I just don't like this input for non charge moves, the buffer period is WAYYYYYY too long, better than before but still walking back then forward to whiff punish would result in Tiamat Knuckle 100% of the time.

- Another big one, when you do a normal it seems to remove the direction from the buffer, you can't do 2K > 14K to get a crouch kick into leviathan kick, only specials (or nothing at all, really) should remove directions from the buffer I think.
- Exception to this would be back dash for Tiamat Knuckle only if it really has to stay as this awful motion.

- Fury could just be MP + MK? Why is it 4 buttons?

- Sometimes doing leviathan kick xx fireball in the corner crosses up the dummy vincent and shoots the fireball the wrong way, then the dummy lands back in the corner, seems weird

- j.LP really doesn't look like an attack at all? I didn't really know it was working until I crossed up and it hit.
- This is a design thing more than anything, but crossups auto correcting seems REALLY powerful, probably a little too powerful? For a game like this anyway.

- 5MP > 5MP whiffs at point blanc

- Didn't notice the landing recovery until I started trying launch combos, it is a bit ridiculous I think, it should probably only happen if you land with a heavy, it feels very awkward. For a comparison, try Parasoul's j.HP in SG and compare it to doing anything (even nothing) in Beast's Fury and it just feels very stiff.

- Just noticed you can hitconfirm into Tiamat Knuckle (easier midscreen) from fireball, I assume this is intended, but with the effects of Tiamat Knuckle doesn't this seem a bit strong?

- Midscreen you can do
whatver (2LP 2LK 2MK easy confirm, but 2MK is hard to cancel right now) xx 236HP xx 46HP > walk forward > 2LK > 2LK > 5MP 4MP > 5HP xx 236HP xx 46HP
Can probably do way more than that.
- in the corner, after the launch you can j.HK > 5MP 6MP before doing the finisher, not sure you can end with Tiamat Knuckle in the corner.

- I see it seems there is 5 juggle points? Was this a design choice from the beginning?

- Can't get much of a grip on Don right now, he seems to have almost no tools as opposed to Vincent's insane amount.

- 2HP is nice for corner combos, but comboing into it seems impossible unlike Vincent and afterward it seems you only get 1 normal? Can't combo into Thresher Thrash?

- On that not, Don jumps forward a bit after Thresher Thrash whiff finishes.

- His jumping normals seem designed for no crossup auto correction.

- Super isn't implemented yet I assume?

- 2HK seemed low range, does it have a really good hitbox for counterpoking or something?

- On that note, I assume Vincent's 5HK must be similar? His 2HK too? Otherwise I feel mediums in both characters cases completely invalidate the heavy kicks (except Don's 5HK)

- a 214P and a 63214P move on one character seems like a REALLY bad idea. Maybe Thresher Thrash should be 214K instead?
 
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Is the game loading better this time around? It had some serious loading problems last time I played, and it would get stuck on win screens, and whatever whatever. I don't want to DL the latest version if it's still gonna do all that.
 
Yeah in the mini patch before they finally compressed textures so it's not so RAM intensive.
It loaded training mode in 5-ish seconds for me.
 
I can confirm the game is using a much more reasonable amount of memory now. More than Skullgirls, but I know Unity can be a pain with that stuff.
 
Zidiane said:
Is the game loading better this time around?
Yeah it should work fine for you now, try it and let me know.


Tomo009 said:
my current thoughts here.
Thanks, I noted everything, I'll go over that a bit later

Tomo009 said:
More than Skullgirls
yeah skullgirls does it smart and loads sprite on demand at runtime, pretty cool.
 
I think that's most of my thoughts for now, hope at least some of it is useful.

May post more at a later time if I get a chance to really play it with someone else.
 
Combo states in general are feeling a bit awkward.

Biggest things being juggle points not being transparent, MASSIVE disparity in hurtboxes between characters ( and when they flip at the peak of the jump, their hurtbox changes massively ), light hitstun being pretty much invisible. They just like close their eyes or something unless hit by a heavier attack.

Vincent's everything pretty much links into everything.

5LP x n > 5HP
2LP x n > 5HP
2LK x n > 5HP
5LK x n > 5HP
5MP x n > 5HP
5MK x n > 5HP

Or 1x any of the above > 2MP x n > 5HP

my favourite, just
2MP x 3 > 5HP

2MP is his second longest normal only slightly shorter than 5HP so why not

From there you get Tiamat Knuckle into all kindsa whatever meterless, can't tell the actual damage because of the refilling life.


I'm assuming Don isn't very done yet? Seems like he just has really really low hitstun in general and LOOOONG recovery.

Mako Masher doesn't build any meter on hit'whiff, I assume that's known, all my Don stuff is probably known, really.

The only decent stuff I can come up with for him is
5LP x 4 xx 236LP

You can do 236PP > 2MK xx 236HP as a finisher

But other than that, really nothing.

Even in the corner 2HP bounces them so low on the wall you basically get nothing. And that's a raw 2HP.

Managed to connect Thresher Thrash from a partially out of corner 2HP > Thresher Thrash
- I think the hitbox on Thresher Thrash is realllllly small? Not final I assume?

Instant j.HK (and j.MK too) seems absurd.

I love how you can use j.MP for a fake crossup to mix up with j.HP crossups. This is basically irrelevant with the auto correct normals, but still cool.

The rest of his normals don't have final hitstun right?

2MP doesn't even combo into 236LP, which 5LP does (no other lights do though)


A HUGE point I think I have to make, EX moves build back insane amounts of meter, is that intended? Seems odd to me.

EDIT: oo Don's 5MK links into itself, so
5MK x 4 xx 236MP

after a 236PP you can also do

jumping j.HK > 2MK xx 236HP

So that's a decent extension/combo then I guess.
 
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Thanks for the feedback, all noted, we'll review everything and I'll let you know if I have questions about some of those
 
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