• As part of the relaunch of Skullheart, ALL previous threads have been archived. You can find them at the bottom of the forum in the Archives (2021) section. The archives are locked, so please use the new forum sections to create new discussion threads.

General Gameplay Discussion

Man... Fuck this new hitstop bs. I'm getting supers mashed out on me and getting hit by the damn things even when I'm expressly jumping into them to bait them, granted its because of lag more than likely but hitstop is a good idea gone bad.

Better idea is to lockout super inputs during super freeze from everyone except the person who's super is on screen. Then we don't have people mashing super to beat super but we also don't have supers doing dumb shit like hitting forward dashes and forward empty jumps.

As it is this game is hella mashy with this new super change and motherfuckers think they are good mashing these things out. Also fuck laggy filia and laggy mf overheads.
 
Hit stop should lock out button inputs. Not sure why it freezes the defender completely.

IsaVulpes said:
@View619 move the Burst- Throw- and whatnot discussion into here. Doesn't have all too much to do with 1-Meter Catheads.
Will do, thanks.

@juju_for_president
"If you can burst at any time during a combo, it wouldn't be as hard to avoid a burst bait. Burst baiting is easy because the attacker sees and knows exactly when in the combo the opponent can use a burst. Once the burst can be used at any time, baiting it becomes much harder."

That's interesting...you'll have to tell me how burst baiting works in GG/BB then, since players can do it whenever their burst is available, yet the attacker can still successfully bait and punish in a number of situations. It's about reading your opponent, not setting up canned 50/50 setups at obvious points in a combo.
 
Last edited:
View619 said:
Hit stop should lock out button inputs. Not sure why it freezes the defender completely.


Will do, thanks.

@juju_for_president
"If you can burst at any time during a combo, it wouldn't be as hard to avoid a burst bait. Burst baiting is easy because the attacker sees and knows exactly when in the combo the opponent can use a burst. Once the burst can be used at any time, baiting it becomes much harder."

That's interesting...you'll have to tell me how burst baiting works in GG/BB then, since players can do it whenever their burst is available, yet the attacker can still successfully bait and punish in a number of situations. It's about reading your opponent, not setting up canned 50/50 setups at obvious points in a combo.
I don't know, actually. When I played BlazBlue, no one I fought ever burst baited, and bursts generally worked as I suggested in my post. At the same time, that was lower-level online play at best, so I guess you could be right. I really don't understand how one can burst bait successfully when every single part of their potential combo is unsafe.
 
The burst bait is to literally either catch a masher, or someone who is thinking the burst can save them.

Can you explain a bit more on what you're talking about (contuing from the one meter cathead thread)
 
Why is this conversation taking place in 2 threads at once?
 
I've always wondered how burst baiting works in bb and gg. It seems like something terribly complicated to burst bait, yet I've seen jap play where they successfully bait bursts, but it seems weird that they are able to do t when each hit of a combo is burstable... Can someone explain the burst baiting scenarios and how they know that a burst is coming?
 
1) The defender having the potential to hit you with a burst DOES NOT make your combo "unsafe". Getting hit by a burst is not being punished for doing a combo/hitting the opponent; worst case scenario is you're back to neutral, you're not taking damage or getting put into a combo (unless people start using AC Burst).

2) From my understanding, bursts are really a way to avoid specific situations and not just to reduce damage/save you from losing at the end of the round; in fact, using a burst to avoid the last bit of damage is a pretty poor time to burst and is the most obvious scenario. Burst baits are a guess, but depending on the situation (e.g. Johnny is going for an Enkasu -> Mist set-up and you have no way to avoid it when it's set-up) if both players understand how the next few steps will play out, one may gamble the burst and try to avoid it completely. When the attacker is in the opponent's head, so to speak, he may drop everything and gamble on the bait. It's not really knowing that the burst is coming, it's just being able to read the situation from the defender's point of view and make an educated guess on it; burst baits fail pretty often too.

In SG, one method of burst baiting is to deal with people mashing during your combo, hoping to hit you out of your reset or if you drop your combo; these are the standard "1 hit and drop" burst baits that you see so many videos of. To move to a point where burst baits extend beyond the standard "1 hit and drop" vs mashing, you need a scenario where:

1) Two players understand why mashing during combos isn't always ideal and won't fall for the "1 hit and drop" brand of baits that are the standard.
2) The attacker is willing to continue to the combo for additional damage, understanding that the defender will not mash burst as soon as possible.
3) The defender understands that if he doesn't do something, he'll keep taking hits and die.

Number 2 & 3 is what I'm talking about, where the attacker can get more damage for his combo and the defender either has to bet that the attacker will bait or continue until he's dead. Honestly, it's the reason I want supers to lock bursts completely; if you take too long to guess as the defender, you just took additional damage and you're put into a worse position (e.g. if you had taken the risk and burst before, you could have avoided that inital combo turning into a corner carry or giving the attacker the meter he needed to DHC into a Cat Heads super and knock-down into that). Right now, it just seems like there's no point to going that far at all. There's a lot of potential in the SG burst system , but there are so many ways around it that I don't think we'll ever see anything.
 
All right, View619, I know for a fact that you haven't played any of the games involved, so I'm going to enlighten you.

TvC: Revolved ENTIRELY around Mega Crash. As was stated before, spending meter to avoid damage was more useful than spending meter to do less damage than you could have avoided, and getting hit gave you meter! The best characters in the game were either characters that could do damage without comboing (because combos were TERRIBLE due to Mega Crash) or characters that could combo off of Mega Crash (Zero could burst, combo off his own burst, and build up enough meter from the combo to burst again).

Bursts as a defensive option: Won't happen in Skullgirls because it won't fix anything. If you got hit and put into a combo, getting a get-out-of-jail-free card only prolongs the match. If you're bad at the game, you'll just get hit by the same bullshit again. If you're good at the game, you get to escape a situation that you deserved to be put in because the developers wanted to put in a mechanic for people who are bad at the game. Do you have 3k life left? I have to hit you twice to kill you, because the first time I do it you're going to burst out.

Burst Baits in Skullgirls: You have no idea what you're talking about. If you can burst during a super, I deserve it because I fucked up my combo. If you think I'm baiting and refuse to burst, I can just yomi that shit and keep comboing you. Good players do burst baits all the time, but only on players who they think will take the bait. If your ideal situation isn't happening, it's because either you didn't see it or it's so rare that there's no point in preparing for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: No longer exist
Nope, I haven't played TvC or BB. I play GG and SG though.

Now, about bursting in SG, what are YOU talking about? I understand how Burst Baits in SG work perfectly, I also understand that if you're playing competition who will fall for the lowest level of a tactic, you keep doing it (I have hit burst baits to catch mashing many, many times; I have a list of burst baits that I use myself). I would also like burst baiting in SG to evolve beyond the point of "catch somebody mashing", because I see all of these mechanics that are sitting there, waiting to be used in these situations that never occur (who is using AC burst). As it

Btw, what's your evidence that you know for a fact that I haven't played any of the games involved besides TvC? Or are you just talking out of your ass because Internet? And I didn't realize that bursts are a mechanic for people that are bad at the game, even though a failed burst can kill you faster than the initial combo that put you in the situation (throw combos vs heavy hitting starters against blocked bursts in GG). Didn't realize that using a tool that, if fails, can get you killed even faster is a "get out of jail free" card, and if it hits does nothing but put you back to neutral (not talking about TvC here). The only reason I even mentioned TvC is because I like the idea of a burst that costs a resource that you're using for multiple things during the course of a match, I did not ask for a a burst mimicking TvC's...can we at least to the understanding that "free" means "no cost/risk" which I have yet to see with any burst.

Hell, the fact that people are considering bursts to be something that you only see when you "fuck up your combo" says enough, imo.

Also, something I should have mentioned about bursts and GG is the unblockable situations which change things up.
 
Last edited:
Knockdown burst baits are the main use apart from catching mashing as far as I know. They're good for setting up pressure on wakeup since trying to tech in a direction to escape leads to a whiffed burst.
 
  • Like
Reactions: View619
Age said:
Knockdown burst baits are the main use apart from catching mashing as far as I know. They're good for setting up pressure on wakeup since trying to tech in a direction to escape leads to a whiffed burst.

Does the Bella thread have any info on knockdown burst baits? Or any info on how they work so I can try applying it to PW/Peacock as well?
 
Not that I know of. I think for bella, j.hp and dp+mp (spaced correctly) are the main setups. As for how they work, anything that causes a knockdown and can avoid a burst when you trigger ips with it is an option. The combo leading up to the bait should avoid using an otg though.
 
Burst baiting is really fun for me, the ink thing I have been doing I training mode is finding funny little weird ones.

In play however, I only subscribe to ones that leave me in great positioning no matter the result to continue pressure. You need an assortment of single and multi hitting ones.


Air burst baits hella good on filia
 
It's interesting to see stuff like PW j.mp triggering burst bait and forcing it to wait until the final hit. Are all multi-hit burst baits like this? It seems like a good way to confirm the bait and go into w.e. move you need to absorb/avoid the burst.
 
i have a question regarding super hitstop (specifically peacocks AA). if she does it next to you do you need to be blocking before the flash or not.

basically i was wondering how dumb crossup teleport>AA would be if you cancelled the teleport as soon as you cross up.
 
No, Argus has more than 8f postflash startup. I'm pretty sure the Beam hits everywhere on the stage at the same time, that would else lead to Peacock being unblockable postflash from fullscreen.
 
thats what i figured but wanted to make sure.
 
@Mike_Z

Omg, i just saw the latest salty, and wow... I LOVE the assist proration... This is the best change from my perspective yet. Ive always thought that assist confirms were to powerful and that something should be done to reign them in... And i gotta say that this sounds so juicy... LOVE IT.
But of course it isnt guaranteed to stay in, but i appreciate that it is at least being tried out. Also, though it means nothing, i would have also made it so that the proration only happens as a starter, not as a combo extender or mid combo... Just like how you have it. So kudos dude.

Ok, so...i have another stupid set of ideas that might be try able... But maybe not. I just want to put them out there, if they stick and get tried, cool, if not, cool as well.

They are unfortunately somewhat redundant, but i think they would really reward the best things about fighting games and and reward other things much less:

Throws:

Stay the exact same except give no proration if the opponent hasnt exited hitstun or blockstun within the last xxx amount of frames (say... 30 frames) the reason being:

Neutral game throws arent that cheap or hard to defend against and in fact they are kinda hard to come by. So shouldnt we not prorate those? And on the flipside, reset throws and tick throws are MUCH EASIER to land so those types of throws, if within x amount of frames, give the 50% proration.

This way damage is dynamic, which is a good thing, and there are lots of ways to get easier/less risk yet scaled damage or harder/less safe and unscaled damage.

And to another extreme, we could apply this scaling to any hit, when coming out of block or hitstun or both... So, someone gets locked down, and then high/lowed, that would be a 50% scaling since they did it during hit/blockstun..

It might be a bad idea, it might be a good one, but it seeks to REWARD off assist play rather than call assist, it wiffs or gets locked out, opponent turtles a bit and waits for assist to cooldown and then repeats the process. It also penalizes "easy" tick throws, yet rewards neutral airthrows, and penalizes resets in general, either only throw resets, or it could apply to all resets.

Its just a thought ive had for awhile that i was never going to mention, but when you came with the assist proration, i saw that a window of opportunity might be open...

As i said though i wont be mad if people think this is stupid... On paper its pretty awesome as it penalizes and rewards all the right things imho... But i could see people saying that its redundant or a complete mindfuck for beginners etc etc etc ad hominems that i dont feel like arguing against.

Just a thought... Or 2 :)
 
Doesn't CH damage only add damage for the first hit?
That means nothing ~_~
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kristoph
Yes but now a jump-in fierce as a punish combo starter as well as punishing assists, even if it is just crouch fierce, means a little bit more. SG damage is high enough already where we don't need the anime "entire combo gets less scaling" deal. It's not a lot, but it's not nothing.

Edit: also all subject to change. I just like the direction this is going
 
Last edited:
dekillsage said:
Doesn't CH damage only add damage for the first hit?
That means nothing ~_~
Think about the difference between an 8000 damage combo and a 8500 damage combo. Makes a big difference if you count it like having a fourth hit at 100% before scaling starts even if it is just like a medium.
 
So wait a minute, since only my post was moved I can't tell who was replying with my post in mind or not, but is that post talking about the assist scaling was already being scrapped? That burns my shit. I'm trying to not be mad, but why do the updo and hornet bomber/pillar users get to keep their abuses, but the throw abusers get their shit scaled? I'm like konkrete on this one, ch damage up is great, assist scaling is great... I'd at least like this to be included on the beta, and personally I think a lot of people might be tired by the triple a assists giving full unscales damage from an assist from an easy confirm, yet throws that have way less effective range and are more dangerous to just throw out, get scaled.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Icky
Throws are not riskier to do than calling assists.
 
What are the solo nerfs?
 
konkrete said:
Throws are not riskier to do than calling assists.

Throws cant be canceled on the ground, calling assists gives no recovery or startup.

Happy birthdays being the lone stat that makes calling assists riskier than throws.

As an easy example... Go into a game and make your offense 90% throws and you can confirm them/cancel them if they are cancelable however you want.

Now do the same except with assists... Which game do you expect to win? And there for which is riskier and which gives more dividends?

I realize that my argument might not be all on the up and up, but its difficult to discern how. Throws have to be brutally calculated, assists are much easier to just throw out. One stalls the point character and one does not. One has terrible range and one does not. One has scaled damage from any confirm, one does not.

Happy birthdays are all that really make assists more dangerous to throw out there... And idk perhaps its unfair, but i cant really take happy birthdays as an argument as to why assists are riskier than throws. Though tbqh i cant really explain why i feel that way...
 
experimental aka not going to stay in retail
- Experiment 1-C: Solos 210%->205% life, 160%->150% damage boost.

@Dime_x you are arguing what gives better benefits, and right now that is assist, no question. I'm talking about risk.Whiffing a throw that's hard to react to punish is a lot less risky than whiffing an assist that you have to actively protect with the point.
 
Last edited:
Its almost impossible for me to be able to separate benefits from risk... They directly interact with each other.

Having said that, its unusual for throws to be punished or countered, which makes their benefits very high...

THATS, how i would have argued against my argument, though i dont know how right that presumption is because most of my throws are based on reads whereas most of my assist calls arent so much.
 
Dime_x said:
So wait a minute, since only my post was moved I can't tell who was replying with my post in mind or not, but is that post talking about the assist scaling was already being scrapped?
He wasn't replying to you, he was referring to the new IPS. There were some voices popping up that said Mike doesn't feel like testing it anymore (at least for now), and MMDS said that from the start, eg here

konkrete said:
experimental aka not going to stay in retail
- Experiment 1-C: Solos 210%->205% life, 160%->150% damage boost.
This is not really a nerf, given the assist changes. Overall Solos are buffed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
Soooo.... Change of topic, i dont see a thread to discuss ongoing beta changes to gameplay though i kinda remember there being one at one point in time... If someone has a link that would be nice. But if not, then why not discuss it here?

Anyways so far i really like all the changes, even the new undizzy "major drama" with tracked normals dealing double dizzy after stage 5.

I like it all so far. Which is perhaps a first, but knowing the developers mission statement/philosophy certainly helps.

Also, peacock getting back her no meter scaling during item charge... So good.

Assist scaling... God what a breath of fresh air

Counterhit damage... So damn awesome. I only wish it were a bit more... To really make matches dynamic as far as how much damage percentage a character might have after the same combos.. I like the fact that after my combo int reset my opponent might have 50 percent life left after an assist confirm into throw reset, or if i hit with a big counter hit into crossup reset they might only have 20% life left... Or be straight killable in 1 reset.

Thats a pretty big swing and forces dynamic play if only because of the difference in life will be so big for doing combos that dont differ that much...


But maaaan assist scaling... So good.
 
@iLoli

What exact unblockable was that, and what was its fix?
 
Dime_x said:
@iLoli

What exact unblockable was that, and what was its fix?

Probably Excellabella xx US + Hornet Bomber from Vanilla. You throw Excel, cancel into US and call Hornet Bomber at the beginning so if you miss you're safe. The fix was to remove the ability to cancel into super from whiffed Excellabella.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dime
View619 said:
Probably Excellabella xx US + Hornet Bomber from Vanilla. You throw Excel, cancel into US and call Hornet Bomber at the beginning so if you miss you're safe. The fix was to remove the ability to cancel into super from whiffed Excellabella.


Yeah i figured that was it. I just wanted corroboration, cause that is a completely different unblockable than what was being discussed in the design thread, so i can t assume that because that unblockable was taken out, that the rest were as well, especially since the fix is on bella and not on how prejump frames work etc etc
 
@ClarenceMage
@Age
@Mr Peck
I just watched a vid of mr.peck saying and explaining on a jumping opponent that mid attacks (in this case updo though peck was illustrating with peacocks st.lp) are no longer unblockable during jump startup as of sqg patch... So as long as that hasn't been taken out, i dont think that bella unblockable works...
 
Well, there goes any merit as to why Bella command grabs are better than normal grabs that convert into full combo...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Broken Loose
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back