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Mashing Supers

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Luweewu said:
So the lesson of the day is to play PW until everyone learns to stop mashing.
Lol no. The moral of this story is to quit hoping that the game will change every time you run into a problem.

PW duels are so nerve-racking for me, if I had more I think I'd be too afraid to quickmatch anymore.
 
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Zidiane said:
Like, Parasoul, everything she'll mash (Pillar, mostly, cancelled into bikes probably, or she could mash lvl 3) beats instant overheads free, so don't do those when you fight her.

Wait, is this true? I feel like every time I try this on a Filia or Valentine doing IAD jSomething on my wakeup, I whiff Pillar because they're already in its dead zone. Am I just not doing Pillar fast enough?
 
RurouniLoneWolf said:
Wait, is this true? I feel like every time I try this on a Filia or Valentine doing IAD jSomething on my wakeup, I whiff Pillar because they're already in its dead zone.
Yeah it's not. But hey, he's talking about mashing Pillar, so maybe it's some different move than I'm thinking of.
 
RurouniLoneWolf said:
Wait, is this true? I feel like every time I try this on a Filia or Valentine doing IAD jSomething on my wakeup, I whiff Pillar because they're already in its dead zone. Am I just not doing Pillar fast enough?
Well there's probably exceptions, but in general. I can't get Filia's j.hp to get around Pillar, I'm not sure if I'm doing it right. Pillar will still always beat regular j.hk overhead from her. About Val, I'm not sure. I can't get j.hp to avoid it, I guess the only other thing she might do is j.mp? or j.lk? And do the things you are talking about also beat lvl 3 mash?

But still, I was mainly talking about resetting characters. As Filia IAD j.hk does avoid Pillar though. And now you know, you have matchup info.
 

Peck did this for anti-gregor stuff with Cerebella, and presumably there are similar options with other characters (like Zid's video where using an invul move gave time to counter super). The only fights I can see these not universally existing for are vs Fortune (although grounded crossunders do a decent job), but if some of these Beta changes go through - namely the increased head lockout when using air super - then blocking her air super will actually be worthwhile.

Perhaps this thread should be used for people to show what options there are for dealing with mashing instead of just arguing that it's good or bad?
 
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This is just another thread where some player bitches about things in the game he can't handle. I would suggest that any discussion on dealing with reversal super mashing be taken to GAMEPLAY DISCUSSION and any bitching be taken to RANT THREAD. I would think these forums are cluttered enough as it is.
 
At this point, I'm pretty whatever about a mashed super, but it is getting a little tired where we as a community come together to pretend that mashing supers is something that is easily counterable and done by only scrubs.

When used relatively sparingly (as in, every time I do reset A, you don't mash out B), it can be highly effective and knock out huge chunks of life..

Not to mention that it is done at all tiers. I saw a stream where Duck mashed more than once against other good players (I forget whom), and he is the best Skullgirls has to offer. I'd bet a shiny nickle that other top tier players occasionally mash and more than occasionally get away with it vs other top tier players.
 
IsaVulpes said:
j.hk avoids pillar in the corner
Oh, alright. The setup I was trying was midscreen. Midscreen j.hk doesn't get through Pillar.
 
DARKNESSxEAGLE said:
Perhaps this thread should be used for people to show what options there are for dealing with mashing instead of just arguing that it's good or bad?
I have these other two vids that are just like the Filia one, but for Parasoul and Fortune. I don't want to make more cause my computer skips and makes it a pain to do anything timing sensitive.
That first reversal was Head Roll, the second fiber upper
You can instead of lvl 3 do Devil Horns cancelled into Showstopper, but level 3 is easier on my computer.
 
You can beat pillar as bella with LNL too.
LNL -> 360 if she does super so you wont lose the trade
 
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dekillsage said:
You can beat pillar as bella with LNL too.
LNL -> 360 if she does super so you wont lose the trade
Yeah, armor beats out a lot of stuff. And if you do mp lnl, you have one hit of armor, and doing it after say s.hp or s.hk beats out people holding up too. It's -6 on block, so there's that, but still.
 
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I don't use mp lnl enough. I always go to hp lnl
Time to change that!
 
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It's just part of the mind game then. If you know the person is going to mash you just block after the reset and then get a free punny.
 
Jayford said:
It's just part of the mind game then. If you know the person is going to mash you just block after the reset and then get a free punny.

This. You're playing another person, and being able to condition your opponent to not reversal super or to bait it and punish properly is part of being good. Whether people think so or not.
 
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To some extent. You can't always predict mashing, and used relatively sparingly they are incredibly effective (at least in so far as you can't hear me mashing my buttons).

This is at least evidenced by their use at all levels.

It isn't until a mashed super becomes predictable (like anything else) that they are "easily" punishable.

For example:

Here is a mashed super beating Duckator at minute 1:50. Maybe Duck should l2p?


I'm not necessarily on the side of nerfs to mashed supers. They are highly unsatisfying both to execute and receive, and they are infuriating when you lose to one last minute, but they are generally manageable. That said, we need to quit with the false narrative that they are only used by bad players and they are always counterable by competent ones. That is just not true.
 
Maybe you shouldn't take duck dropping a combo online as a reason for making an argument.
 
Mashing Devil Horns would have done the same shit. You get reversal'd for fucking up DEAL WITH IT
 
You can mash reversals in like every game lol. I can't watch that vid because I am at work, but mashing a super is high risk high reward. If the person has a meter then it is an option they have and you have to take it into consideration. Sure Duck got hit by one and lost it happens. I did a wake up ultra and took a game off poongko in tournament. Doesn't mean I am better. After that he was more careful on my wake up. You can always play it safe and assume the person is going to mash if they have a meter and out neutral them or just make your resets so they can't be mashed out of. There are lots of options to get around someone mashing out a super. So yeah my response is get good lol.
 
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Spencer said:
To some extent. You can't always predict mashing, and used relatively sparingly they are incredibly effective (at least in so far as you can't hear me mashing my buttons).

That said, we need to quit with the false narrative that they are only used by bad players and they are always counterable by competent ones. That is just not true.
Mashing a reversal only works when your opponent is either unaware or uncaring about the fact that you can do it. People don't want to have a varied playstyle, they want to do what they want to do and they want it to happen. I can't even begin to count how many people I've caught with lvl 3. It's because they almost refuse to think about the fact I can do it. They want to call their assist and go for a low while I have 3 bars. Who's fault is that? Especailly when you use a team with assists, it's your own fault every time you get hit by a mashed reversal. You weren't considering their options, and got punished as a result.
 
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There's a bunch of mash-proof setups in this game, and burst baits that offer full combos if people are pressing buttons during reset points. However, you have to find them. A lot of them involve receded hurtbox attacks + Assist Cover.
 
dekillsage said:
This. You're playing another person, and being able to condition your opponent to not reversal super or to bait it and punish properly is part of being good. Whether people think so or not.

Krackatoa said:
There's a bunch of mash-proof setups in this game, and burst baits that offer full combos if people are pressing buttons during reset points. However, you have to find them. A lot of them involve receded hurtbox attacks + Assist Cover.


I 100% agree with this, however I think the spirit of the post here maybe is not so much you can't do something about mashing, but that it sucks how big of a chunk the SG player base thinks that mashing is a consistently good/viable option to deal with pressure.

Absolutely there are easy-peasy setups to deal with it (burst baits, plain bait, setups that mess up their inputs), but for me it just sucks that except against a very small amount of players I am always approaching the games oki/resets with the mentality that my opponent is probably mashing.

It kind of makes the development of strategy at an intermediate-intermediate/high level progress really slowly.
 
I'm going to do reversal supers unless you give me a reason to stop, just like any other strategy in a fighting game.

In a game where its so easy to snowball the match off of just one good hit, making my opponent think twice about doing that reset is invaluable.
 
@dekillsage

I found a video of one of the very best players getting mashed on in something like... 2 minutes. I'm going to extrapolate and say I could do the same and find you better videos given a tiny bit more time.


In any case, don't change the subject. I'm simply addressing the bullshit line that is "good players always counter mashed supers" and "bad players are the only ones that mash supers" that permeate everyone of these admittedly over-discussed threads. It is demonstrably false.

Like I've said 3 times now, I really don't have strong opinions about mashed supers. But I am in no way talking about whether they it is something you should learn to deal with (spoiler alert: it is).

Edited to add:

@GirlyStyle

Yeah, I almost always have to drop my first combo vs someone I don't know to check to see if they are going to mash or not.
 
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Jason said:
I'm going to do reversal supers unless you give me a reason to stop, just like any other strategy in a fighting game.


How do you define "a reason to stop"? Is it when you don't hit them and you blow your resources and return to a neutral you previously lost to be in the position to mash a super in the first place?

Spencer said:
@dekillsage


In any case, don't change the subject. I'm simply addressing the bullshit line that is "good players always counter mashed supers" and "bad players are the only ones that mash supers" that permeate everyone of these admittedly over-discussed threads. It is demonstrably false.


i don't think anyone really thinks this man, at least not from what i gathered from the last few pages. people were just suggesting ways to deal with it.

the main point of which was that good players don't just bait, they condition.
 
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Pali said:
I don't mind the scumbag stuff when i'm the one doing it, but if i'm not using the character ofc i'm going to complain.

I don't mind it if it helps me win more but if it helps someone else win too then it's bad!

Oh thank goodness you brought up such a stirring discussion.
 
GirlyStyle said:
How do you define "a reason to stop"? Is it when you don't hit them and you blow your resources and return to a neutral you previously lost to be in the position to mash a super in the first place?

Meter isn't exactly free for the defender anymore. I can lose an entire character before I get the meter for a safe DHC.
 
Jason said:
Meter isn't exactly free for the defender anymore. I can lose an entire character before I get the meter for a safe DHC.


you didn't really answer my question and i think you are missing my point.

sounds like you are playing with the expectation that your opponent is worse then you and you are providing them with opportunities to prove you wrong, which isn't exactly wise
 
GirlyStyle said:
you didn't really answer my question and i think you are missing my point.

sounds like you are playing with the expectation that your opponent is worse then you and you are providing them with opportunities to prove you wrong, which isn't exactly wise

I'm playing with the expectation that people aren't going to give me any space on wakeup/reset situations unless I force them to and if they're not willing to bait my reversals then I'll just keep doing it until they do.
 
Speaking of mashing. I'm pretty sure that with certain players, I KNOW they are mashing by the fact that the audio starts lagging. Anyone else think that?
I don't know whether lots of inputs make the game lag more, could be, but it feels like that's always the case and then I just go for a bait and it works most of the time.
Did anyone have the same experience?
 
Jason said:
I'm playing with the expectation that people aren't going to give me any space on wakeup/reset situations unless I force them to and if they're not willing to bait my reversals then I'll just keep doing it until they do.


Yes I know what you mean in other games this is why I called "not respecting your opponent".

You are assuming they will default to going into unsafe pressure after winning the neutral, which is not always true.

Don't assume things about your opponent, learn things about your opponent.
 
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IsaVulpes said:

Filia can beat mostly everything, and the thing i complain about is how much mileage a character gets off of a mashed super. I don't think you need a full BNB from just mashing a super... that's kinda stupid.
 
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DARKNESSxEAGLE said:

Peck did this for anti-gregor stuff with Cerebella, and presumably there are similar options with other characters (like Zid's video where using an invul move gave time to counter super). The only fights I can see these not universally existing for are vs Fortune (although grounded crossunders do a decent job), but if some of these Beta changes go through - namely the increased head lockout when using air super - then blocking her air super will actually be worthwhile.

Perhaps this thread should be used for people to show what options there are for dealing with mashing instead of just arguing that it's good or bad?

Thats pretty cool tech, unfortunately when you're actually in a match most good players are not easy to read. If you did those set ups and he didn't mash super you would be open for free punishment. Mashing super is its own 50/50 especially if you can DHC out to something safe.
 
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Pali said:
Filia can beat mostly everything, and the thing i complain about is how much mileage a character gets off of a mashed super. I don't think you need a full BNB from just mashing a super... that's kinda stupid.


This is exactly what i think as well. It isnt so much that mashed supers... Or even reversals for that matter, are gtfo moves, the problem is in the resultant combo that they get for mashing and /or the safe dhc they get if they mashed/input super into a block.


There ARE ways around this of course. Easiest being simple bait or empty jump plus assist (they punish your assist but you punish them, and your assist recovers health anyways) unless they have the aforementioned safe dhc. At which point simply baiting super mash via wiff is still effective and available.

Aerial burst bait/airthrow mixups are also very good. Though most burst baits other than those are obvious and dont work more than once.

Having said all that, lots of the high level players that play sg, mash. Which is one of the reasons why a topic like this wont get much support... Its like making a "crack is bad for you complaint" in a crack house.

And, well, they are right to a certain extent. Mashing especially the beginner style mashing which is like hitting buttons x5 or 6 as opposed to "high level mashing" which is hitting buttons once or twice at most/ all the expected reset points even when those resets never come (which is something EVERY sg player is "guilty" of) is simply a smart tactic because blocking is a bad tactic. Mashing loses to smart and unsmart baits. Blocking loses to like everything.
 
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It's not like he thinks there should be no such thing as mashing reversals in the game lol.

It's the fact that it favors filia over others
i.e: Bella mashing-> only leads to combo in corner, can't be done in the air
is there any team in the game that wouldn't be better with Filia on it?
 
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