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On Defensive Assists

IsaVulpes said:
Mhh I mean, we have 15 years of MvC2 to work with, and DP assists were #1 there.
What exactly makes you think that this would be different here?

There are very significant differences between SG assists and MVC2 assists, and this is why I believe that SG has better chances. Assists have extra scaling, every assist is vulnerable, there's assist/dhc lockout, snap lockout etc. And those weren't present before. I think people can get past the initial buzz after people start effectively using those options. I'm all for assist variety, I like how people can be insanely clever in SG and remain competitive, I don't feel, in the current version, that there's something that you absolutely need in order to be competitive in SG. (like say, the six characters in mvc2, or the three in 3s, or I dunno, something involving vergil etc.). In the end most things feel like "hey, I've made a better read/convert/call/shaking other controler" type of thing.

I don't even feel that we have characters who play for the players anymore.
 
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If you give those assists blue bounce, I think they would need to put the opponent in a hit-state similar to landing a sweep. But then you run into a problem where there's no reason to fear getting hit by a DP assist as the attacker at all (1k damage and distance vs potential to land a hit and reset into a dead character...).

The experiment hasn't been out long enough for me (or anybody) to make a call, but if that's what the current change does, then there's very little reason to fear eating a DP assist as the attacker now.
 
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I played in a lobby with Uzu and Worldjem. Will have the video up eventually.
I actually kinda like this change because I really did think DP assists did too much. IsaVulpes already covered all of that, though at the same time I do recognize that if you run into a DP assist then it's your fault but... they just did so much. But I only run Hairball assist and I rarely ever call Fortune as an assist so I'm biased as hell.

I don't like the idea of giving in to "scrub mentality" for these changes or appealing to those who refuse to learn how to get around certain things, and changes between each version seem to say "In this version you don't get punished as harshly for screwing up!", but eh.

Val and Fortune at least can still convert off of an Updo midscreen, though I imagine it's much more difficult if not impossible for other characters. In the corner to cover your pressure you still get an easy conversion so it still has its offensive uses. I can't comment on Hornet Bomber because every time I use it I just feel like I have the assist of God in my hands, invincibility or no.

Honestly, it's still early, but I personally don't even care too strongly if these changes are passed in the end or not. Game is still fun either way.

Reminder: I'm biased because I typically don't run defensive assists.
 
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If for some reason someone spikes Mike's next drink with a neurotoxin that destroys his capacity to think, and this change stays, I will immediately switch my main team to Fil/Bella/Band and start steamrolling people with the most brainless offense in the history of the planet.
 
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Why do people love to throw around the word "brainless" so much? :PUN:
But yeah, things still aren't gonna go well for you if you just rush in without thinking. You're less likely to take a lot of damage from getting hit by a DP assist, but you still lose momentum and get pushed towards the corner as your opponent advances in on you.
 
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KhaosMuffins said:
Val and Fortune at least can still convert off of an Updo midscreen, though I imagine it's much more difficult if not impossible for other characters. In the corner to cover your pressure you still get an easy conversion so it still has its offensive uses. I can't comment on Hornet Bomber because every time I use it I just feel like I have the assist of God in my hands, invincibility or no.

That does sound like a problem. I can't imagine that, if Val can convert off of this assist that Filia wouldn't be able to, since her air dash is faster.
 
I'd like to say that "scrub mentality" is largely a strawman.

I hardly think anyone would consider Zid a scrub. No doubt there are other top tier players that agree with some of what was in the OP. As to the rest of us, many of us are also pretty decent. We aren't top tier (and probably never will be), but we generally hold our own and do learn how to bait DP and learn other things (contrary to the forum narrative).

It would be equally as unfair for me to accuse those in favor of the status quo of being too lazy to learn how to deal with something new.

Even though in many cases people on this forum may butt heads, I think it is important to remember that we all give enough of a shit about this game to get on here and hope to make/keep it as fun as possible.
 
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I just hope they leave the block stun alone to make the defensive option safe, that's my only gripe
I can't care less about the combo conversion nerf but i just want a good get off me tool
 
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I have a more radical suggestion: Make assists work more like they did in Marvel 1, the point character goes into a sort of taunt calling out his assist to come out to help, thus giving the point character a window of vulnerability when calling out assists.

Though this would potentially make pressure more dominant in more situations and less in others, it would make calling assists riskier overall and that risk could afford the nerfed assist to return to their previous strenght.

Tbh this idea is really crazy so it might change the game a lot. But thats what a beta is for right?

What do you guys think?
 
hmmm i assume the frames for the taunt will be moderately big.

if you want to make it for the purpose of GTFO assist.....i guess cool, but i mean.... the risk/reward would be unbalanced IMHO.

what if with these changes that instead of dp assist losing combo-ability grant hard knockdown? since they move the opponent far away. but then i feel it would be street fighter concerning certain characters
 
@Spencer I don't believe that people who do not use assists on a regular basis can have properly informed opinions on assist usage.

There is nothing here to "deal with and adapt to", it's a straight up nerf that removes reward from the kind of play that can beat the ludicrously strong offense that skullgirls has. What little adaptation that needs to be done to greater optimise teams in this environment can very easily be made - use MK Butt if you pick double since LK butt is now worthless, put her second, put Filia/Parasoul last, or run a really stupid rushdown team because you're not going to get punished severely for rushing down brainlesly at all.

There are less problems with the 'status quo' than there are with the current beta experiment. I would like the game to move forward, but the problem isn't that DP assists are too versatile. The problem is that there are not enough/safe enough/damaging enough ways to punish incorrect DP assist calls. Currently the best option is H Brass countercall since that shit eats assist life for days. We can only hope a certain new character has the one super that the game drastically needs to create a more assist-punishing environment. #PutSandStormInEliza
 
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Is it possible to make all dp assists devil horns tier?

Honestly though I haven't noticed much of a difference in bomber it's just always good although it is jab-able, it doesn't seem worth it sometimes but I dunno anything regarding this game and its mechanics.

also would even more cooldown for smacking an assist be an okay thing to do?
 
Stuff said:
also would even more cooldown for smacking an assist be an okay thing to do?

I do think that slightly more cooldown on lockout is in order.
 
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I probably mean lockout, I dunno terms.

Just something to prevent those guard assist calls (especially when you have them in blockstun and you think they won't get out golly those are kind of a pain.) I'm not even sure I know what I mean.
 
ClarenceMage said:
If for some reason someone spikes Mike's next drink with a neurotoxin that destroys his capacity to think, and this change stays, I will immediately switch my main team to Fil/Bella/Band and start steamrolling people with the most brainless offense in the history of the planet.

Isn't *insert character here*/Filia/Double just as brainless if not moreso?

What's that? You are giving people are reason to NOT slap on double at the end of every team? What game am I playing.
 
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@ClarenceMage

My point isn't that the current beta experiments are the right move or not, but it is rather that the notion that anyone who brings up a complaint needs to learn to play is a false narrative.

I won't even address the beta changes, as I've had almost 0 exposure to them. I have no opinion on them yet, though I do like what they are trying to do (even if they are unable to accomplish it).

I do think you aren't being entirely fair when you claim that these assists are the answer to Skullgirls unstoppable offense. In a very real sense, they are a huge part of Skullgirls offense as well and as such are potentially a part of the problem, not the solution to it (one of the more common criticisms I'm seeing is that they are more all-purpose tools, not defensive tools).

The ability to do damage and push the aggressor off of you is not nothing. Hell, as a solo player I'd pay a meter for the ability to do 1k damage and knock half a screen away an opponent who has me in blockstun. That respite would be amazing to me. But then add an entire combo on top of that and lord, what a bargain. It is easy to see why almost every team carries one.

I do like the idea of longer timers, but I worry the balance will be a razor's edge between long enough to be worth a damn and short enough to not be crippling.
 
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RemiKz said:
Isn't *insert character here*/Filia/Double just as brainless if not moreso?

What's that? You are giving people are reason to NOT slap on double at the end of every team? What game am I playing.

X/Filia/Double isn't optimal to slap every character in front of. It's a strong idea but I do not believe it is optimal. One reason team Duck is so successful is that it has the capacity to be good offensively, but more importantly to be strong DEFENSIVELY. It is strong because it is able to stop offense and convert with updo or set up MK butt pressure. Valentine's movement lets her place her assist calls better than everyone in the game, but without assists I would not consider her movement options the best in the game.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do a good amount of thinking and baiting whenever I play this team. The reward is there if you understand what your opponent is going to do and punish them for thinking they could get away with it. Whenever you get pressure, as with any character, you can get a little brainless as long as you're wary of reversal super/DP assist. A strong team doesn't necessarily mean it's a brainless team.

When Filia has MK Butt, do remember that MK butt isn't invulnerable on active anymore. It's a good lockdown tool to close space, and Filia is pretty braindead when she has pressure, but working to get in with Filia is not braindead.

You will not get the same success with Squig/Filia/Double. The synergy isn't there.

I will give you that x/x/Double probably is optimal, though.

RemiKz said:
I dunno, you can literally slap on any character in front of filia/double and call it top tier without much debate.

This is a major failing of the Skullgirls community to consider x/Filia/Double instantly a top tier team. More exploration and more git gud is needed. More experimentation with front-loaded teams that dominate the neutral is also needed.

Spencer said:
I do like the idea of longer timers, but I worry the balance will be a razor's edge between long enough to be worth a damn and short enough to not be crippling.

Being crippled for decent amount of time for making an improper assist call sounds perfectly fine by me.
 
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What part of squigly/filia/double ISN'T good?

She can convert super easy off updo/bomber with silver chord or center stage. Heck, just having the opponent block hornet bomber is great because it gives her enough time to charge a full center stage.

Arguably one of Squigly's biggest drawbacks is risky reversals, which is covered by updo. The other being she has to charge center stage to be a big threat, which she has hornet bomber for.

Sure, I maybe wouldn't make it out to be as good as val/filia/double, but its definitely a great team.
 
Squiggly point is the issue - She does far better when she has meter so that she can liberally use Charged Centre Stage->SBO. She has a couple of good assists (c.HP, Dragnbite, arguably centre stage and cord), safe DHC with SBO. Her neutral game is workable but her pressure game is better. Her round start is pretty alright with good ways to wrangle the neutral at round start, but without a charged Sing she's not a significant threat.

At that point, if you think that Filia/Double is the great decider, why not just play the strongest Filia/Double teams, with Fortune, Parasoul, or Valentine on point.

I would say that x/Squig/Double would be better. If you want to play the three characters, maybe Fil/Squig/Double, if you want the synergy. But then the issue with the team is redundant assists since Squig & Double both have horizontal, or close-proximity assists. Maybe updo/centre stage/LK butt since Centre Stage could be what Filia uses to close distance. That team actually sounds really weird/good now, I might have to experiment it once I move on to learning Squiggly.
 
For starters, you are playing Squigly. Also, you're playing Squigly on point so you have precisely one bar for Opera and no access to Squigly's great assists.

Furthermore, Squigly point likes to use all the meter she gets for Sing -> Opera or j.HP -> Opera or whatnot. The purpose of a point in an X/Filia/Double team is also to build some meter for Updo -> Air Gregor and Double Catellites - Peacock and Valentine are better at that.
 
VIVIT_rv00 said:
Furthermore, Squigly point likes to use all the meter she gets for Sing -> Opera or j.HP -> Opera or whatnot. The purpose of a point in an X/Filia/Double team is also to build some meter for Updo -> Air Gregor and Double Catellites - Peacock and Valentine are better at that.

I think the debate needs to be had which one of Peacock/Filia/Double, Peacock/Cerebella/Double, or Peacock/Cerebella/Filia is the best team among the bunch.

I think that there's grounds for considering Cerecopter is a better assist for Peacock than MK or HK butt, since it covers the 45 degree angle Peacock is bad at covering, and stays out for a long ass timing letting Peacock set up her zoning/let bombs cool down. Because it covers that angle, it also sortof covers Updo's anti-air tendencies (but obviously without the invincibility) so it might be a replacement for updo, letting you keep LK Butt for a gtfo button.

Is Filia/Double such a ridiculously good shell that it can out-prioritise the neutral game stacking Peacock can get with Cerecopter? I have my doubts.
 
Oh yeah, because I haven't mentioned it yet - LK Doublebutt assist is not the best assist in the game by a long shot, its invulnerability being removed is an affront to nature and god, whoever thinks it's too strong is stupid. It's a great gtfo button and a great lockdown assist but what space does it control? It controls barely any space at all, that's what. Now that it has no invulnerability there is literally no reason to pick it for its lockdown properties, and Double becomes a DHC character like Squiggly instead of an anchor.
 
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If this interests anyone... after spending some time in the lab, most characters can still get a combo if Updo/Pillar hit midscreen. Really difficult if you're in blockstun and on the ground, much easier if you anti-air someone with it. Possible with a few if you're on the ground and not in blockstun, but you have to act really quickly in all cases. I'd make a video but it's late and I'm tired.

Also, match videos are finally up. First one isn't so great since I was the only person running Updo and I didn't switch to Bomber until the second half of the video.
I can't remember where, but I do remember there was a point where I saw an Updo coming and tried to Gregor through it, but realized that it would've just been better to take the hit since I just ended up getting blocked and eating a combo from the point character instead.
 
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I don't think the reward from 'defensive' assists is the problem if there is a problem. A longer recovery time, heavier damage on assists, or nerfed blockstun might be ways to make 'braindead' calls more easily/heavily punishable.
 
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From the matches I watched from Khaos, they look more enjoyable. There's more spacing and footsies, less people getting nipped with updo and dying.
ClarenceMage said:
I don't believe that people who do not use assists on a regular basis can have properly informed opinions on assist usage.
Truly and dearly? Even though it could so happen that such a a person's only job every match is to find out how to beat the opponents assists, and can clearly see which assist strategies are and aren't effective, and which precise moment a strong offense becomes braindead (that's probably around the moment you see someone eat diamonds), on top of which point strategies are effective with which assists, one who rides solo can't have an opinion on such things?
 
You have, as far as I know, almost zero first hand experience of assist vs. assist gameplay. That is the vast majority of assist gameplay. You can't make a proper call on something you have zero first hand experience on the majority of.
 
2 out of 3 of the nerfed assists are on my short play lists. All that's really changed is that it's harder to use Pillar in combos and now people are dumber about trying to punish Bomber so I can land combos when they would normally just block
 
ClarenceMage said:
You have, as far as I know, almost zero first hand experience of assist vs. assist gameplay. That is the vast majority of assist gameplay. You can't make a proper call on something you have zero first hand experience on the majority of.
I DO play peacock/bella and Fortune/filia often enough. Assist v assist play doesn't really matter anyway here, the knockback on updo/pillar only affects the point character (except for instances where you would have gotten a happy birthday). The only assist that is affected in assist v assist is bomber.
 
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dekillsage said:
man tldr but pls don't take away muh mk hornet bomber invincibility away master pls

but that was the only part of this patch that i actually liked.
 
On third thought. After watching khaos videos though i have no idea what some people are talking about, the resurgence of hk bomber is a good thing. Even though khaos may have only been using it against peacock or not (didnt look to hard) as of now there isnt a lot to make me want to pick lk bomber or mk bomber over hk bomber... Hk bomber does the most damage and has the most range. We back to vanilla baby (only with no invincibility) also having seen how they were using there bombers... It was interesting on khaos part. They would use the bombers from a bit further out so that bomber would be fully active by the time it got to the point or the assist spawn... But they weren't calling bombers from point blank anymore.


I'm still of the opinion that the bomber nerf is really bad and caters to baddies.... But there is a silver lining here... I can go back to my old vanilla style of using bomber as a poke instead of as a hitconfirm.


So lol, nothing has changed except now we get hk bomber back and the optimal team is x/filia or parasoul/double


Use hk bomber as a way in or fullscreen poke, use pillar or updo for the gtfo. And when para or filia comes in... Neither have troubles with reversals or priority so they just use their priority to protect bomber and get it on the field... Just like vanilla.

My team for the beta is fortune/parasoul with dp assists/double with hk bomber. Oh yeah and in the corner hk bomber becomes ludicrous... And parasoul has an easy corner carry from anywhere... So yeah i guess in the end im happy, but i dont like the catering to the people that couldnt get around lk bomber either... Thats just, well, bad.
 
Zidiane said:
I DO play peacock/bella and Fortune/filia often enough. Assist v assist play doesn't really matter anyway here, the knockback on updo/pillar only affects the point character (except for instances where you would have gotten a happy birthday). The only assist that is affected in assist v assist is bomber.

Alright good to know you've got some experience with it and you're not just 150% solobella all day every day forever(even though I kinda wished it were true since that could potentially make you the undisputed authority on Cerebella with enough experience and git gud).

So, the reason that assist vs. assist is important re: Updo nerfs is that now, when you can threaten someone with more neutral-game relevant assists into pressure, calling updo on defense results in them fucking off for a bit, instead of converting into a happy birthday for doing predictable brainless pressure.

The risk is significantly lowered on offense, which greatly skews the game towards rush that shit down hard and do not stop offense even moreso than it was before, since before you actually had to respect DP assists since you could die from them and make some effort at baiting them, but now you can just get hit and return to neutral then worm your way back in with neutral-dominating assists. Don't do it too much because the damage will add up EVENTUALLY but you can reasonably take, say, five free DP hits and it won't be that significant.
 
KhaosMuffins said:

That knife dodge at 1:10:30... holy crap, well played.

The game still looks aggressive as hell, and Updo still looks strong.
 
@everyone
Short of completely removing invincibility on the assist, removing ALL ability to combo off them, or removing ALL blockstun, there is nothing that can be done to a DP assist to make it useless in pressure in the corner at the very least. It'll be an invincible hitbox, which is always useful somehow.
Removing invin on the assist makes it not useful on defense.
Removing all combos off it makes getting hit by it preferable to blocking in a lot of cases. (see the current Beta)
Removing all blockstun, well, no.

Can we at least put THAT part of this to rest?

I greatly prefer trying longer lockout (edit: it's lockOUT, not lockDOWN) rather than this experiment, but I will leave this for a while because it's there.
I really dislike how this makes super-careless offense even more careless.

IsaVulpes said:
Beat Extend isn't touched because ?? Don't ask me why, Mike says "It's an offensive assist" ??? He uses it, so kinda bias? Dunno
Hey? I'm doing all this and reading complaints EVERYWHERE because of your suggestion and you want to say that without applying any thought first? After seeing how I work for two years?
Even if you were kidding, you're done being listened to.
No insults, you have simply used up your allotment of my goodwill.

Beat Extend isn't changed because:
- You didn't name it in your original whine.
- It already has startup vulnerability (LP/MP) or doesn't hit vs air while invin (MP/HP).
- It doesn't really lock down very much for the range it has.
- There's no easy change that doesn't render it useless as everything but a poor combo extender: removing invin makes him a giant target that never hits / reducing hold time or allowing instant techs off the drop doesn't make it enough harder to convert after / making him shake to reduce the followup dmg just makes it easier to convert after / nothing else to really do.

Woofly said:
But stop being such a pretentious piece of shit about it as if to imply there could ever be a problem is laughable, thanks.
Having played 10 years' worth of a game where you could call a completely invincible DP assist that hit 3/4 of the screen/did not have cooldown if hit/could not be stuffed, that led to dead TEAMS or midscreen doublesnaps, while crouchblocking/upbacking/trijumping/doing a 1f cr.Short, and still be able to tech throws even if you were in the middle of an attack when you got thrown...I feel pretty comfortable in saying that there is a lot less reward for a DP assist than could otherwise be the case, and there is more to be done to get around them than people currently do.

Chicken blocking one (they don't cause preblock remember) removes the blockstun...

Not that they don't have a high reward vs the risk, they do. But the ratio they do have is not nearly as superamazingneedstobefixed as people keep insisting.

hlvn said:
What moves did he use to achieve this?
Trijump RH, dash cr.Short?
 
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I'm all for longer lock-out for hitting assists in general instead of nerfing three individual assists, to be honest. That actually seems like it has a chance of making it into retail at some point.
 
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I'm actually probably more in favor of a lockout as well, but what time are we thinking?

It is sitting at 2 seconds now, right? So what is suitably punishing without being unfair? 3 seconds? 5 seconds? 10? One million-billion?

The thing about lockout now is it feels ineffective in most scenarios. Most of the 120 frames are eaten up in the approach and the rest trying to crack the defense. I don't even feel comfortable trying to crossup because there's a better than average chance that DP is out of lockout.
 
180 frames would be just enough time to be right I think, MAYBE 210.
 
What's the current lock-out (in frames)?
 
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