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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

I just dash all the time. Most of the time you'll be forced to block lk/mk bomb anyway.
 
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@konkrete

Doesn't pushblock on nails fuck up the half screen confirm?

I do love nails, but the wind up is so slow that across the screen I don't usually accomplish much with it vs any character with a projectile.

@Dime_x

vs the super defensive players, I have remarkably good luck just flying in looking for an easy confirm or throw so long as they don't have an invuln assist. Have you tried your air normals into a cancel to be less predictable? If they are getting above you, that is no bueno since PW has remarkably few options above as you no doubt know.

vs Peacock there is no really good answer. Hopefully since you have assists you can avoid the utter bullshit that is the walking george into tele behind so even if you do confirm you're going to get knocked out of your combo. Aside from that it is a matter of knowing the sweet spot of where shit is goign to hit you. j.hp can absorb an air george and if 'cock tries the item drop into charge thing, j.mp can usually take some wind from their sails (be ready to hg hp if they block it).

Lord I need to start playing again... could someone call my teachers and ask them to assign less work for me?
 
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j.HP armour is still great for getting close to cock, wait for either plane or item to happen, then jump in the air, absorb the next one and then cancel into fly and fly forward or down forward to ground yourself.

The danger with tracking planes is that you get caught between item drop and plane... but make sure to time your approaches properly, as usual and that isn't too much of a problem. Then you just have Peacock's superior air normals to deal with, which is where the real problem comes for me.
 
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@Tomo009

Thats a really great suggestion... To absorb an item and then fly cancel after absorbing... God im obtuse... Why the fuck did i never think of this?

This is why i ask stupid questions... Sometimes i get golden answers :) thank you for that!
 
Spencer said:
@konkrete

Doesn't pushblock on nails fuck up the half screen confirm?

I do love nails, but the wind up is so slow that across the screen I don't usually accomplish much with it vs any character with a projectile

Well sure it does, but the question was what to do about people who just upback all day and wait to whiff punish something.
 
konkrete said:
Well sure it does, but the question was what to do about people who just upback all day and wait to whiff punish something.

I will shoot nails until they come my way. I will also do a hobillion different kinds of everything into Fly into light normals back into the ground. Throw off any rhythm.

If I'm in close where nails are a bad idea. It's Jan-Ken-Po time. "j.LP,j.LK,j.MK" air-to-air, Throw or Block. If they're going for the attack/crossup and I don't think I can win the air exchange, I try to get them to fall onto cr.MP armor or call assist.
 
Krackatoa said:
I will shoot nails until they come my way.

This is way strong.

@Elda Taluda showed me the value in it. I'm pretty aces at dodging the first set of fully charged hp nails in flight, but they come so fast and can chip a huge amount of damage forcing you to commit.
 
Yeah, Nails are basically the Sonic Boom of this game imo.
 
Ive never seen Elda abuse nails except for install nails... And install nails are really good... But against any smart opponent they can just turtle the install nails out. Nails basically do no chip damage. Especially charged hp ones. But they ARE a great way to get in or to scare people that arent aware of just how weak they are in general.

But yeah I'm just saying that if the opponent is panicking against mass install hp nails... They are doing it wrong... Just turtle the nails out.
 
Dime_x said:
Just turtle the nails out.

You got 99 seconds. Where you goin' bro? In order for someone to sail clear over nails, they first have to guess against fully charged nails, and jump in expectation. Let loose a 3 Nail or a 1 Nail and move forward.
 
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Krackatoa said:
You got 99 seconds. Where you goin' bro? In order for someone to sail clear over nails, they first have to guess against fully charged nails, and jump in expectation. Let loose a 3 Nail or a 1 Nail and move forward.


Naw i was specifically talking about installed nails.

As far as regular charge nails go... Sooo many counters. Car, argus, item drop, bypass, armor run headbutt, hk egret, hp napalm shot, zoom nom, sing sbo, brass etc etc etc


Funnily enough painwheel herself has some of the hardest time dealing with stingers.

Not that they arent good when used smartly, just saying that people that panic and get hit against installed nails are doing it wrong. Installed nails are best for going in or are good when they hit. Other than that just turtle them cause they do little damage on block.
 
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I really don't see a lot of those as Nail counters. You have to look at Nail startup, which can be fast (And they can be feinted), and the space/situation of the player. You do use them less in a few matchups (I don't use them at all against Peacock), but you have little to be scared of in the Filia, Bella, MF, PW and Squigly(Sans Stocks or Airborn) matchups. I will use nails if there's an opening to do so in another matchup, because you can force an air-throw mixup provided you're close enough.

They become much more fearsome if you're like me, and have Double Car DHC in the wings, or two bars to Install for further protection. The fact that you have Install protects you from so much, and if they force you to do it? Oh well! I now have better neutral. Install is better spent on approach than nail-storms, however.
 
Yeah if they want to turtle against nails that just means free meter and eventually a free mixup.
 
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konkrete said:
Yeah if they want to turtle against nails that just means free meter and eventually a free mixup.

And while Air-Throw isn't normally a rewarding mixup, if they're in the corner, PW does like... 7.6k for 1 meter. CH Throw does 8k. <_<
 
Played the peacock player again. Used tomos advice of using charged j.hp to get passed peacocks items and plane... It worked at first. Peacock didnt know what to do. I went like 4-4 or 5-5 cant remember. But then... The peacock player adjusted and rattled off, i kid you not.... Like a 30 game win streak against me... I kept trying different variants of charge j.hp, call mk bomber, punish the assist and nothing was working. The peacock player was basically doing copter then plane and item drop timed to hit very close to each other... Breaking my armor if i tried to armor. If i empty jumped i just landed into copter. And if i stayed on the ground i was still blocking copter and plane and item drop.


So i couldnt figure out how to deal with it and since painwheel was my best bet, my entire team generally folded hard once pw died. Even double was almsot completely powerless cause the peacock would just pepper me with st.hp and copter and running away etc etc etc and i would car through st.hp and get it teleported through... So that sucked and gave me few to no options.


Also, i did try to dash in... For like 3 full games.... Generally couldnt get passed midscreen. If dashing works i need to see it. I know it works once ive already gotten in against peacock... Since she loves to j.hp xx airdash j.hk and i can ground dash and follow her... But from half to fullscreen it seemed like folly if i didnt already have her on tilt.


So after the 30 game winstreak as luck would have it, i came upon a strat that worked and won like 7-4... For the time being at least:

In order to stop my j.hp charge the peacock player needs to call lvl 1 item drop and plane very close together. I found that if i mix up my ground spacing a bit, i could mp stinger and fly towards... Either my stinger would hit copter and lock it out or it would hit peacock.


Normally this wouldnt work against this peacock players general patterns but he was running anti armor pattern which means the holes shifted.

So once he saw that he started to overload with spaced planes and item drops... At which point i could go back to charging j.ho to get in against plane. And while that get in mixup was strong, it wasnt enough, the other thing that i was doing was locking out his assist as much as possible.


With double, the strategy that i enacted to get passed his st.hp plus assist strategy was to do car, have him teleport through it, and then cancel the car into parasouls bikes. He couldnt teleport through all that.


And i also upped my throw useage even more than normal cause the peacock player has come complacent to tech airthrows in midair and just block on the ground... I must have threw him like near 10 times per game (throws are so bad now) but once i started to use throws to open him and then use crossup resets and stuff after that throw opener... He was bleeding.


I felt like a learned alot. The only problem is the last few games were done at like 2 am for him... So lack of sleep could have had something to do with it.


But yeah, the go against peacock really seems to be to constantly switch up the ways to get in and to always punish her assists if possible.


Seems obvious and it is... But the hard part is figuring out what approaches are actually good and what to base a neutral game get in strategy, on.for the most part it seems to go like this:


Painwheel flys over st.hp and lk and mk bomb kinda making them a non factor..

Thats painwheel pattern 1, it dissolves many of peacocks bombs.

Then peacock counters with mass st.hp xx item drop st.hp xx plane stuff.

Then painwheel counters with j.hp armor to get through the spaced planes and items.

Then peacock counters with calling item drop and plane at near the same time, resulting in less overall coverage but more burst coverage to beat j.hp charge.

Then painwheel counters with staying out of range of mp itemdrop and throwing out a stinger that will hit the hk bomb or item drop call or the assist.. Any of these are welcome and after painwheel accomplishes a successful stinger, she can fly forward andc all mk bomber assist to catch any teleports or catch peacock trying to start another bomb pattern.


Well thats how its gone so far in our games. There will be more adjustments, but these ones seem to be the most basic.
 
Honestly, it shouldn't be that difficult to avoid Peacock's stuff. Stay above Cerecopter and all grounded projectiles so you only have to deal with Plane and SOID. Jump into immediate j.hp charge should get you off the ground, then it's just a matter of absorbing the SOID (you can manuever around the Plane). At the very least, you should be able to get to the range where he needs to go air-to-air with you.
 
View619 said:
Honestly, it shouldn't be that difficult to avoid Peacock's stuff. Stay above Cerecopter and all grounded projectiles so you only have to deal with Plane and SOID. Jump into immediate j.hp charge should get you off the ground, then it's just a matter of absorbing the SOID (you can manuever around the Plane). At the very least, you should be able to get to the range where he needs to go air-to-air with you.


In order to do that i have to make plane miss then absorb the item... Which he can just hold for as long as he wants. If i end up charging to long or not absorbing the item drop at lvl2. Its pretty much a free combo for him everytime.... Whereas i guess right on the item drop all i get is a bit closer, he still has mp bang, all his airnormals, pushblock and teleport left with which to defend himself.

I generally can get to within arms reach of him, but its rare and the moment is fleeting. I get like one blocked attack at most and get pushed out or have to deal with his assist etc etc etc.


I was getting wins, at first. But then it all stopped until i figured out the 3 pronged neutral mixup.

But basically, him hitting me with a lvl2 item is almost a win condition. Peacock optimized combos hurt and his does over half life in 3v3 without argus and has ridiculous mixup resets attached to it.

Juking plane then absorbing item drop is just a high risk low reward pattern from what ive had chance to implement. Not that i dont do just that, many times, its just its far far from a win condition. Getting passed item and plane is where the game begins. Pw isnt even really playing before that.
 
Peacock is really good.

However, make sure to not lose sight of the fundamentals. If you're getting read on your approach, you needed to do something else in that situation. There's always an answer. In the Peacock matchup (and any matchup), it's crucial to stay as erratic as possible, because Peacock needs to get a bead on your movement habits to set stuff up. Once you're in close, you need to psychically intercept the air-throw, stuff the assist, armor through what you can, bait/punish the teleport, call assist once you're in, bait pushblock. Depending on Peacock's chosen action, what you need to do is going to be different, and if you get read, get ready to travel the screen again.

This is kind of why I still run Duo. Fuck this top-tier team synergy shit. I can take a hit, and I only need one to kill a Ratio 3 Peacock. Assists aren't going to help me get in that much with PW on point. If I ran Trio, I would have to reset her like twice after the first hit. Blegh.
 
Drop Napalm Pillar and run Bike assist for Parasol. Find a way to put Stingers safely on screen and fly into j.mp range behind them. Push block her items to the corner and trap her there. It's hard to really provide an answer for dealing with Peacock.
 
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View619 said:
Honestly, it shouldn't be that difficult to avoid Peacock's stuff. Stay above Cerecopter and all grounded projectiles so you only have to deal with Plane and SOID. Jump into immediate j.hp charge should get you off the ground, then it's just a matter of absorbing the SOID (you can manuever around the Plane). At the very least, you should be able to get to the range where he needs to go air-to-air with you.
I've played against Age's Peacock. The thing is, he wont let you just armour, although I think its the best way to get in on him, he will save his items so he can trap you between item and plane and if you are in the right range he can just Cerecopter + teleport. He has the most disgusting crossups where he will sweep under you, call cerecopter and then teleport giving you absolutely no time to react to where the screen goes before you get hit. He's never afraid to jump in at Painwheel with her far superior air normals, getting in is just really difficult.

My solution? Big Band, counterpicking is the way.

I'm afraid of how Age's Peacock will end up, if it turns out I have to play a fusion of Age and Folks, dear god.
 
Tomo009 said:
I've played against Age's Peacock. The thing is, he wont let you just armour, although I think its the best way to get in on him, he will save his items so he can trap you between item and plane and if you are in the right range he can just Cerecopter + teleport. He has the most disgusting crossups where he will sweep under you, call cerecopter and then teleport giving you absolutely no time to react to where the screen goes before you get hit. He's never afraid to jump in at Painwheel with her far superior air normals, getting in is just really difficult.

My solution? Big Band, counterpicking is the way.

I'm afraid of how Age's Peacock will end up, if it turns out I have to play a fusion of Age and Folks, dear god.


Yeah its a fusion of age and folks already.

And that sweep double crossup seems to good for peacock to have. /extremely salty /have yet to block that shit.
 
View619 said:
Drop Napalm Pillar and run Bike assist for Parasol. Find a way to put Stingers safely on screen and fly into j.mp range behind them. Push block her items to the corner and trap her there. It's hard to really provide an answer for dealing with Peacock.
I was running bike assist and shot assists when he rattled off that win streak. When i put pillar on the team is when i started winning. This peacock isnt content with just running away. If he sees opportunity to go in he will with cerecopter lockdown into high/low mixup into disgusting combo into reset unless i guess right. Pillar was killing his offensive attempts and locking out copter. I just found that i dont need 2 get in assists.


Double is weak in the matchup, may as well be psylocke. So if double gets put in on point i just car to bikes to get soul back in. The reason being to use mk bomber to get in. Cause bike just doesnt help much with the current nerfs... Its rather hard to get an uncontested bike out. Out of those 30 games i think my bike assist hit once. Parasoul just sits there forever and if she gets hit the bike is useless. At least with pillar i was taking advantage of his offensive fumblings.



But i agree with you and point taken... I SHOULD use bike, i just couldnt tell how to use it...i always got hit out of it on point and as an assist... It seems really bad now tbqh.
 
Well yeah, I can see current Bike being bad as an assist now that you mention it (completely forgot about the nerf). If nothing else, Peacock's high/low game sucks imo. Unless he has some instant overheads, it should be clean blocks, although Cock with Copter can keep your locked down for a while.
 
View619 said:
Well yeah, I can see current Bike being bad as an assist now that you mention it (completely forgot about the nerf). If nothing else, Peacock's high/low game sucks imo. Unless he has some instant overheads, it should be clean blocks, although Cock with Copter can keep your locked down for a while.
Its more the endless lockdown and left/rights that are an issue. Age has been hitting me with 2MK though... I usually just tend to block her high and its been catching me a bit too much haha.
 
Find a way to catch jump back j.hp at the round start. Your success rate vs peacock will double.

off-topic:
-Double is better than you think in the matchup. I was getting cornered by her and crumbling to j.hp pressure. Even at long range, if you are on the ground and have meter you're limiting me to using ground normals and assists unless I'm willing to eat a car. Stay on the ground to approach if you can, since when you jump I can set up bombs or shadows.

-Bike assist is so so bad now. Napalm shot is ok, but probably not enough on its own to compete with peacock's projectiles.

-If all is lost just mirror match me with peacock, or pick BB. I'm free to either so far.
 
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Dime dont counterpick. Dime learns matchups. Even if it makes Dime lose.

And to hell with the peacock mirror against you. Neither of us is particularly known for our "dynamic" play. We both play solid/strong. Thats why i dont mind the mirror against other peacocks... Im more solid... But against you, you are more solid and since neither of us is dynamic... The matchup gets super boring super quick. One can only fake teleport/item drop/bang x3 so much before one gets super bored of the trades.
I think my current team is equipped to handle yours if i play smart. Whereas if i ran a peacock team id have to design it for anti cock with hk bomber and that hangs parasoul as well as bomber just gets beat by copter. But yeah, all your points are good ones... Still dont know how your peacock loses to band so hard... That matchup seems totally in peacocks favor... But different minds think differently.



Though with the new BB brass knacku buffs... The match could now be bad for cock...


@View619

Peacocks iad j.lk has been sped up i think, as well as the game itself being sped up... I can no longer see it like i could on vanilla. Its a true mixup between that and cr.mk

Plus the stupid c-bag can mixup between iad j.mp (react blockable but only 1 hit) and iad j.lk the problem being that my pushblock gets mixed up i have to delay pb against j.lk and instant pb against j.mp... So the pressure is rather strong...and yes i think its to good for peacock to have... But w/e
 
Me and my double posts... Well you fools dont talk enough... So it is what it is.


Anywho i noticed yet another nerf to throws... Dont know if this has always been inherent to the game or what... But if i throw someone and do a full 240 undizzy combo.... My opponent literally gets an entire bar from it.... Shit is extremely stupid.

So basically throws do shit damage and they give the opponent comeback mechanic meter. Great. Liking this game less and less. I like strong throws. These throws are pathetic doing girly damage and giving the opponent buffs for getting whomped on.


Anywho, the point being that doing throw into very fast high/low/left/right reset may be the way to go... Even if the reset doesnt work you havent give the opponent the keys to the city in the form of free meter that they didnt work for and dont deserve.
 
Alright, not trying to be an ass, but why is there still griping about throws? They're still fast, can be used at a number of reset points, lead to a full combo. I mean, they aren't SDE throws (thank god), but they aren't bad. I thought throws were supposed to beat blocks and open the opponent up, which throws still do? Clearly, we've moved away from throws being used to do similar damage as hit starters to throws forcing the opponent to do something other than block, which opens them up to everything else?

Also, I don't think losing most of your life for a meter is really gaining meter for free, especially when you may never be in a position to use that meter before you lose the character (who cares about Bella with meter if she has to guess in the air, for example). Plus, you can always just do full undizzy combo and look for a burst absorb which empties the opponent's undizzy meter and leaves PW in their face, or reset in a way that allows it to decay somewhat while still leaving you with the advantage (launch > fly, invincible assist + cross-up).

I feel like making raw hits deal unscaled damage while making everything else land you a scaled combo (!), which gives you options to reset and land the raw hit is the way to go. Mashing is annoying yeah, but there are so many ways to beat mashing that I don't think I need to talk about it, even with a "safe" DHC behind the point.
 
I just dont like finding more and more nerfs/ways to underpowered moves... The game was supposed to be free... But the more i play and learn the more the game just boxes people in. Like... I have a real problem with BB negative pen. Well, undizzy basically kinda does the same thing imho.... Allows you to do things... But penalizes you for doing those things (without the actual player being the one penalizing you) throws are basically the same. They say "hey you can open your opponent up with this throw, but you will be doing scaled damage, oh and you will also be giving your opponent a shitload of meter, but hey the option is there... We the game are just going to penalize you if you take that option instead of going our approved route which is to reset after 3k damage to keep the undizzy low and the meter gain low"


I kinda dont mind... Its still a game that everyone has the same rules that apply to them so it "should" be balanced... But it kinda ends up being less so when one compares character that use mass throws to open and to reset versus those that dont need to. Like my parasoul..
Doesnt use throws to reset or to open really. I only really use throws to punish up/back and empty jumps. So they are non standard. And then we have peacock that doesnt give any shits about throw scaling since she never really combos off her throws.

And finally, I'm still pissed off at the deathcrawl damage nerf, the lk buer scaling everything to 50% like it was a throw, the lk buer gaining shit meter cause "it is easily comboable" as if... The only thing it combos into on the ground are j.lk and j.lp and super... So it shouldnt have a meter nerf on the ground version... The air version... Ok point taken there.

So basically, almost all of painwheels starters come with mass scaling:

Throw gets scaled.
Assist crossups get scaled.
J.hk crossups gets scaled.
Cr.lk doesnt get scaled.

And im fine with the scaling tbqh, but the deathcrawl thing really really pisses me off when a character like fortune can ferserker into crazy ass oldschool deathcrawl damage, and filia can do Fenrir for crazy ass damage... And both characters have great reversals and airdashes and good high/low... Yet they dont get any of these inherent scaling penalties.

But painwheel? Yeah lets give her scaling on lp stinger... For what reason? Cause it gives an easy link into a hard attack or something? Like fiber upper doesnt? Or half the damn special moves in this game that dont scale yet give links... Kanchou? Gah.

Oh and let's nerf deathcrawls damage pre install and pump it up to regular damage during install.

I mean... Gah i dont know. Perhaps im on the outside looking in, but i dont see the reasons for so many inherent nerfs in painwheels overall moveset. No unfly, slow air normals, 1 hit of armor on j.hp, lose lvl1 pinion for absolutely no reason.... I could go on... etc etc etc

It just shits me cause i try and figure out how to make this character a monster and i just find roadblocks all over the damned place and it gets frustrating.

And that absolutely doesnt happen with any other character.

And before anyone thinks this is a buff painwheel post it isnt. I'm not asking for any buffs whatso ever... Im just wondering why the inherent nerfs in the first place. Which is completely different.

I want to know because if i did i might easier be able to unlock painwheels true potential. I stay with the character cause i still have hope that shes got that latent power hidden somewhere, and because shes my favorite character.


-meh....

I think i just need to use stingers more/better.. the only reason why i can think of all of pws inherent nerfs being fair is stingers. If stingers arent the answer... I just dont fucking know.
 
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I don't know, I feel like she's stronger now than she was in SDE (if we ignore combo damage, because SDE). We can look through some of the things she has that are really good and worth considering:
  • All air throws allow meter-less conversion anywhere into combo which also conserves your OTG, something Filia and Fortune can not do.
  • Multi-hit normals allowing her to safely negate push-block even without assists.
  • Sonic Boom Stingers...yeah. Her stingers give her the ability to play a pretty strong ranged game against anybody who isn't Peacock imo. Add this to a level 3 that shits on projectiles in general and allows her to convert off of Stinger on hit.
  • Invincible level one air super with a good hit-box (will only whiff against characters above her iirc). Can convert into combo on hit, can be cancelled into Flight on whiff and block for some measure of safety, can be cancelled out of armour to punish attempts to air-to-air her and break the armour (something nobody does...).
  • Flight allows her to perform ambiguous resets in the air, to the point where it's like you're standing. Solo left/right/grab/tick grab resets while you're in the air where most characters have no reversal options.
  • Armour gets her out of spots that other characters would struggle with, like Napalm Shot lock-down, Peacock patterns with H SOID.
  • Even with all the damage adjustments across the board, she still hurts. Add to that the ability to corner carry meter-less and keep up pressure with Flight.
  • J.MP and S.LK are still really good.
  • Death Crawl no longer gives the opponent a shit ton of meter on hit.
  • It's actually difficult to catch PW flying if she's not just holding forward, resulting in potential air-to-air whiffs and whiff punishes with air super (which nobody does; I'm guilty of this too tbh).
Honestly, I don't think she needs to use mass throws to open people up, especially with the set-ups I've seen off of launchers and the mix-up you get after st.hp > Flight (high that catches up-back, whiff into low/grab). You're not really penalized for using throws Dime, throws are just balanced now imo. Do you really think high damage conversion off of fast throws in general in SDE were the way to go?

But yeah, stingers are amazing now imo.
 
@View619

You make good points. I'll reply to them in the order that they came:


1. Filia can, fortune not so much. Conserving otg used to be important..
But now it really isnt. Undizzy kinda kiboshed the need to conserve otg from a full combo since dhc at full dizzy doent allow a combo anyway and painwheel herself doesnt gain much from otg at end of combo anymore.

2. A double edged sword. Those multihits are pbgc bait and hang her in midair to be blasted by AA assists. As well as to hang her on her opponents assisst and get crushed by a punish. Where painwheel has multihits.. Other characters have chains, pw j.mp is an easy air to air confirm. Parasoul gets j.lp,j.hp chain. Bella gets j.mp knock into the ground. Etc etc

3. Far far from a sonic boom. The trademark of newschool boom is its super quick startup and recovery and its fast speed... Stingers have none of this. They can be followed like boom... But thats where the similarities stop...parasoul can do this with her lp projectile as well. Though yes, i think stinger needs more play.

4. The air super is only available in the air. Cancelable into flight on block or wiff (only wiff iirc) doesnt matter much... You still get punished easily everytime. Its hitbox is doodoo has no horizontal range and it being mainly an air to air... Thats where the range is needed.

Still yes this is a good thing... But filia also has this... Air gregor anyone? And air gregor is much easier to block confirm dhc into something safe. Painwheels is kinda hard actually. Fortune also has airsuper to convert off of. Bella has ground super to convert off of and easily hitconfirmable into safety.

Point being, it is good but it isnt inherent to painwheel only and it isnt even best in class. Sbo has an anti air version that converts... Lots of supers convert into combo, hell some character have invincible specials that convert into combo...

5. Yes this is good but isnt limited to painwheel. Other characters cant fly but still have super ambiguous crossups. The days where painwheel had the best resets are gone. Shes still in the top position, but she has people that are tied with her such as fortune, filia, val, bella, shit every character has good resets. Also, afaik half the cast doesnt have airsuper and the other half does.

6. Painwheel is actually one of the weakest characters to napalm spam in the game. Though yes she has options... Other characters have better options... Like reflect for bella or cr.lk under the shots for fortune.

7. Shes does good damage if you max out undizzy. But even then, she is no longer a world beater. She getting like 9k for one meter in the corner and its distance and character specific iirc. Bella is doing that or more than that for less dizzy and less character specific iirc. And so is fortune. Both arguably have better mobility than painwheel and they definitely have more priority on air to airs... Fortune and bella have a run... And a double jump...

Her corner carry is ok. She doesnt usually end up in the corner herself able to put pressure on... But she can at least knock people there.

8. I assume you mean cr.lk. Yes they are both really good.... But they are both only situationally good as well. I guess that could be said of anything... But in these moves case... It seems rather easy to bring those situations up: j.mp is weak upclose. Upclose is a situation that happens all the time. Cr.lk is weak from point blank range and will get stuffed by just about any other starter done at the same time.

Also, back in vanilla where painwheel could full combo off of max range cr.lk... Yeah it was really good. Now though, it wont combo from max range anymore. It will only combo for around 85% range which limits its effectiveness. And yes i run into that problem regularly. Probably once every 1-2 matches i hit a cr.lk from max range and have to spend meter to convert. Meter is precious for painwheel in general and the airsuper scales things down. Once every 10 games or so i hit an absolute max range cr.lk and i cant even convert for meter... First world problems i guess... But i digress... I need all my confirms, to compete.

9. Yes this is good. But it shouldnt have ever been that way in the first place right?

10. Yeah it is difficult to catch her once she has established space. That is very true. But her approaches still tend to be quite linear... I guess thats my fault though but it seems hard to overcome cause of how slow her offensive moves are. I feel like i have to constantly fake my way in. With like 3-1 fake to go in ratio... I guess thats ok? I dont really like it though. Stinger is the answer i think.

11. ??? Setups off of launchers? Those have to be done on hit right? If its a reset it isnt opening an opponent up (they are already open), its continuing on hit mixups.

St.hp xx fly high doesnt beat up/back anymore iirc. If its a point character, only lows kill up/back in startup. This is a change from sde to mde i think.assist still kill jump startup without being low... But points do not.



You make good points here and though i had something to say about everything you said... Dont take that to mean i am disagreeing with you... I'm not. Those points are all solid... But they in no way make pw an amazing character cause most characters have many of those things or reasonable facsimiles.

The primary things that pw has that are pw only are flight cancelable normals, ability to not touch the ground for extend amounts of time via flight and safe on block install plus speed up flight/air mobility.

Even stingers arent really unique to her since parasoul can fire off lp shot like a boom, or hp shot like a Sagat fireball or mp shot like a parabola projectile. Painwheel gets the Boom follow property as well as the parabola in one move... For the high price of charging forever.


In the end i guess it all comes down to the wiki being wrong... Shes not really an offensive monster... Shes basically designed to bait the shit out of the opponent. Thats all i can really see.


Pls dont see this as me disagreeing with you though. And yeah some of that stuff i said may not be perfectly correct... I didnt fact check any of the numbers type stuff like fly high no longer beating up/back. Though im like 99% sure that that is how it is now, unless it got changed back somehow.
 
You can crossup with j.mk and get tricky overheads with j.lk without scaling the combo too much.
 
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Yes very true. J.lk opener is the thing that keeps her damage high. That crossup j.mk though... Man i tend to wiff that thing and eat a cr.lk on the other side all the time. I guess maybe i should practice it and use cr.lp as a follower for a better chance of winning the weak attack war that happens after wiffing something from such close range.
 
Painwheel's j.mp priority shouldn't be a question anymore. You have a sword normal that stays active like it's on 3s chun, and converts to full combo even if you were jumping back.

So it's slow. Don't use it in close range then. You don't even have to have enough space to avoid air-to-airs with a neutral jump, you can be jumping or flying back, meaning the opponent has to cover whatever horizontal and vertical distance there was to begin with plus whatever distance your backwards momentum adds, and they have to cover that in the number of frames difference between their attack and j.mp's startup. I don't know the numbers, let's say bella's j.mp is 10 frames and pw's is 20, bella has 10 frames to cover more space than pw can create *while moving back and possibly up in the air*. If she gets it? 600 damage, maybe a j.hp thrown in if she's willing to give pw full screen. If she fails? 6k damage + reset.
 
It's fine Dime, I can understand why you're upset. But besides giving her armour all the way through the active frames of her normals, I really don't see what else she "needs" at this point. But yeah, try more stinger (level 1 and higher if you can).
 
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Age said:
Painwheel's j.mp priority shouldn't be a question anymore. You have a sword normal that stays active like it's on 3s chun, and converts to full combo even if you were jumping back.

So it's slow. Don't use it in close range then. You don't even have to have enough space to avoid air-to-airs with a neutral jump, you can be jumping or flying back, meaning the opponent has to cover whatever horizontal and vertical distance there was to begin with plus whatever distance your backwards momentum adds, and they have to cover that in the number of frames difference between their attack and j.mp's startup. I don't know the numbers, let's say bella's j.mp is 10 frames and pw's is 20, bella has 10 frames to cover more space than pw can create *while moving back and possibly up in the air*. If she gets it? 600 damage, maybe a j.hp thrown in if she's willing to give pw full screen. If she fails? 6k damage + reset.


I dont agree with any of that. But I'm not going to sit here and argue the point with you. I will just say that out of the 4 characters i play well and the other character that i play.... Somewhat ok. Pw j.mp has less priority and is harder to use than ANY of those characters best air to airs.

Pw j.mp has its strengths, but its weaknesses are bigger than its strengths. And like i said, this is when comparing her priority to the other characters i play... I dont think there is a better litmus test than that.
 
j.MP is the juice. It's startup and vulnerability to invincible assists means you can't be an idiot with it, because characters have options if it gets read. Don't get read. Outside of DP assist, the defender doesn't have a crazy amount of options to outright deal with it. Your ability to fly and change your airborn momentum means a j.MP is never guaranteed unless you've burnt all your fly cancels. Players are intercepting j.MP on reaction to a jump, not the startup of your j.MP.
 
Krackatoa said:
j.MP is the juice. It's startup and vulnerability to invincible assists means you can't be an idiot with it, because characters have options if it gets read. Don't get read. Outside of DP assist, the defender doesn't have a crazy amount of options to outright deal with it. Your ability to fly and change your airborn momentum means a j.MP is never guaranteed unless you've burnt all your fly cancels. Players are intercepting j.MP on reaction to a jump, not the startup of your j.MP.


I dont want to argue with YOU about it either. Like i said, i use other characters, their air to airs are better. Then you come with "u gota use it smart" ok dude. Having to use shit smart implies that it lacks certain things that make it good... Like... Priority... In many of it's encounters. Bottom line is when i use parasoul j.lp to beat stuff it does.. It almost never loses... In fact ive never had it lose in a pure air to air fashion i dont think. Same with peacock j.hp, same with filia iad j.hp, close with double j.hp etc etc etc.


But i was intrigued by your statement so i decided to watch a couple of your games... Saw very little use of j.mp at all. So its this high priority attack that isnt "high priority" enough to actually use much?


I think we are getting our terminology confused. priority means a moves ability to beat other moves.

It has little to do with whether the move is good outside of that definition.

You are right, j.mp... Is.. The juice. But its priority is suspect in close encounters and the move has to be setup. Which is, like, what i said. Bad upclose so dont use upclose. But that leaves us with other bad air to air moves. Painwheel doesnt have good upclose air to air moves.


But anyway, i did like the style that you showed against worldjem. You arent super predictable which is a plus, but you let go of a lot of initiative for that "unpredictability" i also know how good jem is since he is the one that put me into losers at evo... Though at evo i couldnt hit combos for shit... But what ya gonna do...
 
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