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Painwheel general discussion AKA GET OUT OF MY THREAD

I run a lot of events, so I play a lot of SFIV and Guilty Gear is very popular here (Also, the players in Ottawa are very good). I also play a bunch of other games regularly.

I still don't think the Parasoul matchup is bad, however, the matchup is dumb. If you can get a read on Parasoul's buttons, PW has an answer with armor. Hard reads are risky, but in a game like SG, those hard reads lead to so much damage that I could never say that matchup is very bad. Parasoul has great options on offense. PW has great options on offense. Both have roughly the same ass defensive options. In neutral, I still feel it's fairly even, due to what armor brings to the table. The things Parasoul is doing to smack you around in the midrange are completely vulnerable to absorption. When she's in air-throw range, depending on how you approach, she switches to hard reads to knock you out of the air (Airthrow/j.LP), which in turn, are vulnerable to your own hard reads (j.LP, staying grounded, preemptive single H.Stringer)

With assists, that all goes out the window. Block and call DP assist, then go in. :|
 
Dime_x said:
Before armor preblock was known i would have doubted this highly. Now however especially with the jhp slide strat beating reversals with buer, i can see it, kinda. But it at the end of the day is just another reset option... Which she truly has in spades anyways (dont see anyone using st.hk (2) xx fly xx stinger crossup, yet, but its been a known thing for a long time.
The setup was sorta better if there was no armor preblock, because my initial experiments back in the day were trying to get it to work with LK.Bomber

The difference between this reset and a lot of other resets is that you have to watch for the assist AND where PW is going. The mixup doesn't just involve j.HP. j.HP only needs to be there in for the victim's reversal window. After that, you can release j.HP for an overhead, or fly out of it and do anything else. All the while, the opponent can't do armored attacks or reversal super. They also cannot raw tag, press buttons, or jump up.

Once they're respecting the setup, there are ways to call Cilia Slide without j.HP while hitting them High/Low (As opposed to Low/High). Suddenly, they're eating invisible mixups and not pressing buttons.

Low Assist's power is in the trauma it causes.
 
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Krackatoa said:
The setup was sorta better if there was no armor preblock, because my initial experiments back in the day were trying to get it to work with LK.Bomber

The difference between this reset and a lot of other resets is that you have to watch for the assist AND where PW is going. The mixup doesn't just involve j.HP. j.HP only needs to be there in for the victim's reversal window. After that, you can release j.HP for an overhead, or fly out of it and do anything else. All the while, the opponent can't do armored attacks or reversal super. They also cannot raw tag, press buttons, or jump up.

Once they're respecting the setup, there are ways to call Cilia Slide without j.HP while hitting them High/Low (As opposed to Low/High). Suddenly, they're eating invisible mixups and not pressing buttons.

Low Assist's power is in the trauma it causes.

Multi-hit invincible DP, invincible DP into super to hit PW twice and catch the assist, jump up-forward and air grab. I figured pre-block j.hp armour with low assist would be great, but it's not unbeatable. It may be better with a multi-hit low like French Twist or Squiggly c.hp (?).

It should wreck straight reversal super and up-back though, which seem to be the two default defensive options for most players.
 
Guilty Gear, nice. I am hoping to get into xrd and BB:CP whenever I can spring for a ps3. I love Skullgirls, but I do get tired of teams.

On topic, I find armor helps vs raw j.hp, raw sniper shot, and tear spam. My problem is usually j.lp > j.hp which beats armor easily and j.lp has a sexy amount of active frames and priority, it is hard to beat out with our own j.lp/lk. That said, airthrow vs Parasoul is super helpful. She runs the same risk of predictable jumping that we do with our j.mp and that's where I get the bulk of my pressure. Also key, do not reset her on the ground under any circumstances: pillar... ugh pillar.
 
View619 said:
Multi-hit invincible DP, invincible DP into super to hit PW twice and catch the assist, jump up-forward and air grab. I figured pre-block j.hp armour with low assist would be great, but it's not unbeatable. It may be better with a multi-hit low like French Twist or Squiggly c.hp (?).

It should wreck straight reversal super and up-back though, which seem to be the two default defensive options for most players.

They cannot jump. The setup hits in the first 4 frames of recovery. They are treated as grounded.

Also, Cilia Slide, due to it's animation, pushes the DPing opponent backwards during startup. This means, in some cases, the initial hits of DP don't actually connect on Painwheel, and sometimes can even put them outside of Frame 0 range (Counter Thresher before connection, regardless of armor). Obviously it's not completely fool-proof, but suddenly, the only way to beat this setup is to DP and cancel into super with no confirm.

This is why the setup is great. Suddenly, they have to think a lot harder, and commit to a new, potentially more unsafe set of options to escape.

Spencer said:
Also key, do not reset her on the ground under any circumstances: pillar... ugh pillar.

Reset her on the ground and charge j.HP. Boof. Spaced correctly, you can eat through Bikes for 10k, or counter-super for 8k.
 
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I always trade with bikes and curse super loud.
 
Spencer said:
I always trade with bikes and curse super loud.

Space and time it better, it beats bikes if you hit shortly after they start to come out (So only like one or two do) and you sail over them. You can also fly up and away depending on how high you do it, or do j.HP xx Thresher as a starter.
 
Krackatoa said:
They cannot jump. The setup hits in the first 4 frames of recovery. They are treated as grounded.

Also, Cilia Slide, due to it's animation, pushes the DPing opponent backwards during startup. This means, in some cases, the initial hits of DP don't actually connect on Painwheel, and sometimes can even put them outside of Frame 0 range (Counter Thresher before connection, regardless of armor). Obviously it's not completely fool-proof, but suddenly, the only way to beat this setup is to DP and cancel into super with no confirm.

This is why the setup is great. Suddenly, they have to think a lot harder, and commit to a new, potentially more unsafe set of options to escape.



Reset her on the ground and charge j.HP. Boof. Spaced correctly, you can eat through Bikes for 10k, or counter-super for 8k.

Yeah, I wasn't too sure about the air grab, but if Slide really pushes DP moves away so they whiff vs PW, then that's great. It pretty much guarantees that can't mash at all due to the threat of armour > counter super.
 
CaioLugon said:
Pretty sure I can mash fiber

Just tested. All versions of Fiber lose if the spacing is right due to Cilia Slide pushback.

#stayfree

Beats Napalm Pillar (Whiffs completely, tags the assist). Beats L and M Updo (Can be made to beat H, but it's funky). Beats all reversal Supers save for Scalpel. Wins against Val Counter (Assist hits first). Beats all Bella options. Squigs is fray. PW dies a horrible death.
 
Krackatoa said:
The setup was sorta better if there was no armor preblock, because my initial experiments back in the day were trying to get it to work with LK.Bomber

The difference between this reset and a lot of other resets is that you have to watch for the assist AND where PW is going. The mixup doesn't just involve j.HP. j.HP only needs to be there in for the victim's reversal window. After that, you can release j.HP for an overhead, or fly out of it and do anything else. All the while, the opponent can't do armored attacks or reversal super. They also cannot raw tag, press buttons, or jump up.

Once they're respecting the setup, there are ways to call Cilia Slide without j.HP while hitting them High/Low (As opposed to Low/High). Suddenly, they're eating invisible mixups and not pressing buttons.

Low Assist's power is in the trauma it causes.


Understood. I do like slide for pw anyways as well. And ive been finding that it goes well with parasoul as well so it should work good with team pali. Plus, against peacock it seems like it could be really good at neutral cause of the low profile going under fireballs. The setup you use for the reset, is it off of st.hp?


Ive been finding a few more reset points and the newest one ive found is decent and with slide seems even better:

Lk buer, j.hp no charge plus slide. Its a slow overhead that i made up to open up people to painwheels low reset game from flight. I was tired of getting nothing but throws off on val offline cause she walks out of fly crossup unless i do it super slow, so i was just doing fly cancel into throw all day. This cilia slide does seem like the business now that you also mention what it can do to dp's and that it breaks armor reversal assists as well.
It does seem to cover many options from the opponent and the ability to make it hit high/low or low/high is frightening. Good stuff dude. I'm still wary of its neutral game applications, but, hmmm.... It does seem strong enough to warrant use on a team over bomber in at least some aspects.
 
Dime_x said:
I'm still wary of its neutral game applications, but, hmmm.... It does seem strong enough to warrant use on a team over bomber in at least some aspects.

It's actually not bad in neutral. You can call it on prediction to H.George, for instance, and it will punish. You get to absorb Plane and catch Peacock when she eats Slide.

You can also do this setup off of blocked j.MP, provided you're in prox block range (It's not height relative, only width relative)
 
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Krackatoa said:
Just tested. All versions of Fiber lose if the spacing is right due to Cilia Slide pushback.

#stayfree

Beats Napalm Pillar (Whiffs completely, tags the assist). Beats L and M Updo (Can be made to beat H, but it's funky). Beats all reversal Supers save for Scalpel. Wins against Val Counter (Assist hits first). Beats all Bella options. Squigs is fray. PW dies a horrible death.
How much did you mash tho?
 
Krackatoa said:
They cannot jump. The setup hits in the first 4 frames of recovery. They are treated as grounded.

Also, Cilia Slide, due to it's animation, pushes the DPing opponent backwards during startup. This means, in some cases, the initial hits of DP don't actually connect on Painwheel, and sometimes can even put them outside of Frame 0 range (Counter Thresher before connection, regardless of armor). Obviously it's not completely fool-proof, but suddenly, the only way to beat this setup is to DP and cancel into super with no confirm.

This is why the setup is great. Suddenly, they have to think a lot harder, and commit to a new, potentially more unsafe set of options to escape.



Reset her on the ground and charge j.HP. Boof. Spaced correctly, you can eat through Bikes for 10k, or counter-super for 8k.


I'm not getting the results you describe here. Here's what I'm doing in training mode:

1.St.hp xx fly plus cilia slide, up forward full charge j.hp (cant upback, gets hit low, CAN JUMP FORWARD OR NEUTRAL TO ESCAPE.
2. St.hp xx fly plus cilia slide, immediate no charge j.hp (results in unblockable protection, can be blocked both low and high.
3. St.hp xx fly plus cilia slide, very slight charge j.hp (they can jumpout backwards cause the armor attack for whatever reason stops rooting them to the ground... Still end up blocking the slide, but its an air block against the slide so no high/low application at all.


So the only thing i can think of is that slide has to be called BEFORE FLIGHT, but not exactly when st.hp hits since it will combo.... Seems extremely tricky/finnicky and i cant reproduce it... Whats the secret?
 
Dime_x said:
Whats the secret?

The timing for the assist call is just before s.HP impacts. The timing window is as large as whatever prejump is (4 frames. I believe in you.)
 
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Krackatoa said:
Is this a serious question?
It is actually, my initial reason to think fiber would beat it is because it sends fortune up on hit, and I'm sure it will hit at least double so it would dodge the j.hp.

To repeat the question in a more proper way, did you hit the kick button twice for fiber?
 
Krackatoa said:
The timing for the assist call is just before s.HP impacts. The timing window is as large as whatever prejump is (4 frames. I believe in you.)



That helps a bit... I now cant jump out in either direction, but i still get off the ground. Also, this is just low blockable cause the slide causes unblockable protection. Also, this is no charge j.hp so this isnt going to work against reversals and will get me happy birthdayed, also if i were to charge, they can still jump out forward or neutral since the slide doesnt hit during those 4frames.

I COULD BE WRONG HERE... But my hypothesis:


Are you over selling this as something that does all these things at once, when it ISNT something that does all these things at once? I can definitely see it doing everything you say IF THE TIMING IS MIXED UP. But i dont think it can accomplish:

Cant jump forward or neutral.
Cant jump backward.
Cant block low.
Cant block high.
Cant reversal.


All at the same time.... It may be able to cover between 1 or 3 of those things at a time, but it doesnt seem like it can cover both jump forward AND reversal at the same time, at the very least.


Perhaps my reading comprehension is fail at the moment, but for. What i just read it seems like you are pretty much selling it as a near unblockable that can only be reversaled out of on a limited fashion.

Whereas from the results im getting it looks more like an option that can be designed to beat both upback and up forward, or certain reversals, but not at the same time. Still stupid powerful, but not borked like it seems to being made out to be.
 
Don't want to interrupt the conversation, but my question is: How do you do the ground combos with the qcf.K chain? I've been trying this one out, but the mistake I seem to be making is j.LK, resets, s. or c. LK. Am I always supposed to use a higher power normal after the jumping attacks or can I actually connect two lows like for example j.LP, j.LK, s. or c. LP or LK?
 
View619 said:
This is clearly from a distance where he would use Brass or Giant Step, not in Painwheel's face. Maybe I should stop assuming that everybody is on the same page and point these things out?

Unless Heavy or Medium Brass break armour (?), none of those are going to matter. Brass x Super against it means you can absorb another hit (HG s.hp has two hits of armour) and then counter super, which is still bad for him. Basically that, plus throwing nails to be annoying\fly in behind to start pressure and deal chip (this gives you the life lead) and Flight means you control the match, imo.

Giant Step beats projectiles sure...but it can also be baited and punished. So, it's not like he can just Giant Step for free either.

Also, what's the problem with bringing up PW strengths in specific match-ups in a thread with activity? Should we go to the MU thread to watch it die? This is for general discussion, right?

But if its from a distance, how is HG st.HP even gonna hit him? Coulda made it a little more clear ya know, ya should've just said it was from a distance in the first place.

No Brass Knuckles doesn't break armor, but it still has its own super armor and can absorb the s.hp without getting into stagger animation. He can also use Emergency Break to cancel the Punch and keep the super armor, to absorb Painwheel's blow and make it safer (if not necessarily punish it, admittedly I don't think he can). And you can only counter super if its a normal super sonic jazz, a powered up version from his taunt gives him 25 hits of super armor and TUBA TUBA! Increases to about at least 10 hits (?) to shatter the Hatred Guard Punch completely, Regular Version still hits for times and also has its own Super Armor (you did say HG has only 2 hits of armour after all, but I thought I was 3 or 4 hits I dunno) as well. So unless I don't use Bagpipe Blues (which shouldn't be too hard to do against PW, if hard at all), its not that bad if Super is Used considering how I get more hits than your armor can take and gain significantly more armor than you have.

Yes Giant Step can be baited and punished, but so can PW's thorns due to their slow startup and charge time (unless you use Hatred Install and sacrifice 2 bars of meter), so its not like you can just throw them and start flying for free either. You don't have to charge it, but if you don't, you're just gonna get little more than a miniscule amount of damage and one tiny projectile that covers a small area. Even if you can use Hatred Install to speed up the thorns, BB can actually parry ALL 4 (both MP amd HP versions) of the thorns so that they will deal almost no damage to him and pose as a minor threat; so PW will have to come to him. Sure Band might not be able to attack her far away in mid air, but she can't attack him either. She also lacks a solid anti-air and is better off fighting him in mid air unless he does something stupid and let her pummel him.

Spencer said:
@Funkermonster

Big band is pretty slow at max range. You can dash in super easily. The only thing you have to watch out for is Giant Step which you can react to (chicken block).

OBJECTION! He has a faster than average walk speed, decent forward run, and a big double jump. And if you wanna move around in the air, you can use j.mk to make his peni- er... I mean clarinet (lol) propel him over the ground for a moment. The only real slow thing about him is his laggy backdash, but you could just cancel the lag with a jump. Big Band himself is decently fast, its just his fatass size and backdash that restrain him.

Now Painwheel on the other hand: Is Kinda Slow aside from Flying (which isn't very safe to do and is susceptible to anti airs unless you unfly). Walk Speed is below average and her dash is slow both backwards and forwards, especially thanks to having around the same retarded startup as Squigly's run.

Big Band may not the fastest guy around at max range, but Painwheel is quite the snail herself on the ground. Good luck using your laggy forward dash to try and get him, hope ya like eating a Cymbal Clash.
 
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^^ yeah agreed i think the thing people are missing here is painwheel doesnt get free nail charges at all and even level ones are risky with flight cancel or not. Also, when it comes to up and down movement big band is faster than painwheel. And since he has balrog rush punch that goes across the screen... He is also faster at vertical movement. Painwheel has sustained movement via fly which is pretty unsafe.

Even though it isnt being played this way yet, i honestly think this matchup will be up there with cerebella as far as how it feels to play it as painwheel. If we think about it, big band is a whole helluva lot like bella. Only, he doesnt have to charge his run and he has a better float thing. His symbol crash is like bellas j.mp and confirms air to air and is freaking huge. His AA a train is like excelebella. Pw wont be hit with it that often... But not getting hit by it, means sacrifices in spacing. His brass is like a further hitting verison of headbutt but easier to stop because its slow startup time, still a good poke though. An EXCEPTIONALLY FAST regular jump, and a double jump for doing things like getting on top of pw and cymbaling her at neutral.



Painwheel has her advantages as well. I dont really know how this matchup plays out. Yet. But i see to many tools for BB for this matchup to really be like a counter in painwheels favor. I mean what does turtle wheel do to BB? She cant safely throw stingers... So there isnt much else to say unless turtling gives her easier mindgame opportunities to go in.
 
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Dime_x said:
Stuff.

You can not do the following: Hit High First, Have Armor and Stop Forward/Neutral Jump.

So, they can only super you if you decide to hit high first with the intent to also cover all jumps. However, they are making one VERY hard read to do this.

There's another setup, and this involves timing assist call alongside a late j.LK after s.HP xx Fly. If you wait for the Refly cooldown to refresh, you can alter the order of impact (It's also a sweet mixup on it's own) by flying out of the first j.LK, into another aerial. Obviously, this doesn't come with the same armor benefits, but due to Cilia pushback, it might still be DP-safe in many cases, but not Super (Unless you're fighting Parasoul. Lolololol. Get wreckt).

So, are they going to respect the OS and not press buttons, or are they going to mash/rawtag/dp/buttans and risk losing a character? Are they going to block and wait for a more even shot of getting out? If they do, and I decide to go for a crossup j.HK instead, free from defensive options.

I never said this was broken in earnest. The words "pretty godlike", "better than bomber" and "fuck raw tagging" have left my mouth sincerely, though.
 
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I see. Ok very good then. Thanks for the concise readout on what it can do :)


I just ran slide against one of our best peacocks... It sucks in that matchup and most people out here now play peacock or val or some other high flyer. Wheni did get a hit it was good... But that didnt come often. Meh... I just have to throw peacock back on my team. Its all i can really do against these people.


Lol... Just me ranting cause i need to vent... But i seriously think double jumping should have more restrictions than what it currently has... As well as maybe even AIRDASHING... Like some lag when they land or so,ething... They seem like way to powerful of movement systems for them to get all the benefits that they do. Idk... Just salty about high fliers not named painwheel i guess.
 
The key to the PW/Peacock matchup is like... Fucking whimsical uses of Fly/Unfly/j.HP... and H.Brass. :|
 
Krackatoa said:
H.Brass. :|


Yes, exactly. What I'm doing is just sticking peacock back on my team. That peacock player uses lk bomb for filia and its absolutely stupid once filia manages to make me block something... So my solution? I picked peacock anchor with painwheel and dubs in front. Peacock with lk bomb... Lol... Never thought this could be such a good team. Double with lk bomb against filia was extremely funny. Just L shot plus bomb and filia cant do any airdash shenanigans at all and if i get one shot to hit i car into argus best position for peacock. And i get a free mk bomber crossup mixup to boot.. Sooooo soooo stupid. But i digress... Peacock is fucking stupid. And shes not nearly as bad an anchor as people would lead others to believe.
 
@Funkermonster

I don't usually eat cymbal clashes. If BB is in the air, then he opens the air space up completely. In this case you can usually fly in without a problem. As a rule of thumb, if he's jumping... fly in (cautiously, you can still be caught out with a fast A-Train), if he's on the ground dash in. In my experience, most BB choose to stay on the ground slowly backing themselves into a corner since it limits our ability to fly in so easily.

What I mean by BB is "slow at max range" is that his moves are slow to start up. You are correct though. He is faster than us (they all seem to be) which is just a fact of PW's life. But due to the slow start up on his ranged moves, PWs dash isn't bad. Hell, I actually like it. It sends her pretty far foreward, you just have to be a bit more predictive with it. But if BB is just turtling all you have to look for is giant step. Dash in, prepare to chicken block, dash in... repeat.

Once in, up close, I find I have little problem dealing with him. Though admittedly, he does have some incredibly fast moves for his size... fucking triangle. But being perfectly honest, maybe it is a l2p issue with BBs, and as they get better the MU will get more difficult. But as for right now, I generally don't have much of an issue with them. When I lose, I know why and it is my fault, and I know I should have done to fix it.

My only issue with BB is how much damage he can take off if you fuck up. Drop a combo to a mashing BB? There goes about half your life, all of your momentum, your pride, and any sense of control you had on the fight...

@WrestlerGuile

Sorry man, I'm not sure if I'm following. It sounds like you are asking what moves to do after you flight cancel (is that what you meant by "reset")? If so, I believe you can flight cancel into both standing heavies though the timing on s.hp can be rough. One of my combo paths uses:

stuff x flight > j.lp > j.lk > s.hk

which isn't a hard link (though I drop it an embarrassing amount of times). Most of the time you'll be canceling first into c.mk like:

stuff x flight > 3.lk > c.mk > s.hp > lk.buer

You can also easily go into c.mp (my combo gets there from j.lp > j.lk > c.mp) or s.mp if you want to go into a launcher fast.

Did that help at all?
 
Calling @Tomo009 to explain the application of PW's tools in PW vs Band since we seem to be on the same page and I can't be bothered.

>_>
 
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Spencer said:
@Funkermonster

I don't usually eat cymbal clashes. If BB is in the air, then he opens the air space up completely. In this case you can usually fly in without a problem. As a rule of thumb, if he's jumping... fly in (cautiously, you can still be caught out with a fast A-Train), if he's on the ground dash in. In my experience, most BB choose to stay on the ground slowly backing themselves into a corner since it limits our ability to fly in so easily.

What I mean by BB is "slow at max range" is that his moves are slow to start up. You are correct though. He is faster than us (they all seem to be) which is just a fact of PW's life. But due to the slow start up on his ranged moves, PWs dash isn't bad. Hell, I actually like it. It sends her pretty far foreward, you just have to be a bit more predictive with it. But if BB is just turtling all you have to look for is giant step. Dash in, prepare to chicken block, dash in... repeat.

Once in, up close, I find I have little problem dealing with him. Though admittedly, he does have some incredibly fast moves for his size... fucking triangle. But being perfectly honest, maybe it is a l2p issue with BBs, and as they get better the MU will get more difficult. But as for right now, I generally don't have much of an issue with them. When I lose, I know why and it is my fault, and I know I should have done to fix it.

My only issue with BB is how much damage he can take off if you fuck up. Drop a combo to a mashing BB? There goes about half your life, all of your momentum, your pride, and any sense of control you had on the fight...

Open up air space to let you fly without a problem... No problem except getting air thrown, Cymbal Clashed, Tymphany Driven, or j.lk'd; it's still not safe since you can't block while flying. And if he's jumping while you're on the ground, you're pretty much fucked since PW doesn't have any reliable anti air at her disposal and is easily susceptible to jump ins, particularly his j.lk or j.mk (can crossup or float over you). She can fight him in an air-to-air battle with HG j.HP (if he's not already above you), but on the ground she's vulnerable.

To use PW's dash because his long ranged moves have slow startup: everything except his cr.mp, lp brass knuckles, j.mk (vertically only though), and lk and mk Giant Step (no earthquake, but is still an overhead and causes soundstun). And PW's dash not bad in this matchup, I still disagree bceuase the startup on it is too slow to be useful consistently. She can't wavedash or anything like Filia can, and the dash takes too long to start for it to be quick; plus BB's j.hk puts on the ground and enables him to tech roll forwards or backwards to get further or closer away from you depending on the situation (forgot to mention that earlier). Even if you can get to him with your dash, you will still have a hard time anti-airing him unless BB's player sucks or if you have the opportunity to jump and beat him in the air.

PW does have her advantages, but I don't think its a good time to call the MU in her favor just yet.

Calling @@Tomo009 to explain the application of PW's tools in PW vs Band since we seem to be on the same page and I can't be bothered.
> _>

Coward :P
 
The matchup isn't free but I think it is in Painwheel's favour.

Fundamentally, Big Band is a character who forces his opponent into making decisions, taking risks to do so but CREATING risks for the opponent. He can get decent damage but more importantly can get hard knockdowns from this situation.

Painwheel is having none of that. Painwheel (and Fukua) can play stupidly safe in his one space he doesn't want you to be, in the air at full screen.

You can armour through punches on the ground or in the air as well as fullscreen Giant steps. A train doesn't even reach that range, so Big Band has no full screen tools while you can quickly duck down to throw a nail every now and then, being REALLY annoying to BB.

This forces BB to approach on your terms, which makes going on the offensive really easy when you are already in the air. As long as you stay high in the air, know that Big Band's only anti airs require him to be incredibly close to you. j.LK is great but hits below him so he would have to double jump just to reach you.

This means your only threat comes from the ground, but here's the kicker, BB is a charge character with a run, he really store a charge during a dash like Parasoul so most of his approach options wont allow him to charge A-train. If he jumps or emergency brakes, then predict if you think he will A-train and unfly > punish or just preempt it with j.MP/j.HK.

flight 9j.MP is pretty good in general, it will force BB to block from a ludicrous range as it will break armour and stuff out beat extend.

The main thing to be aware of is not being predictable on offense. Be careful when doing flight cancels and ground pressure that he could beat extend or SSJ out.

So overall, the matchup is just safer from PW's side. It plays out a bit like the Valentine matchup actually. But Valenine is a better flight character than Painwheel.
 
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Tomo009 said:
The matchup isn't free but I think it is in Painwheel's favour.

Fundamentally, Big Band is a character who forces his opponent into making decisions, taking risks to do so but CREATING risks for the opponent. He can get decent damage but more importantly can get hard knockdowns from this situation.

Painwheel is having none of that. Painwheel (and Fukua) can play stupidly safe in his one space he doesn't want you to be, in the air at full screen.

You can armour through punches on the ground or in the air as well as fullscreen Giant steps. A train doesn't even reach that range, so Big Band has no full screen tools while you can quickly duck down to throw a nail every now and then, being REALLY annoying to BB.

This forces BB to approach on your terms, which makes going on the offensive really easy when you are already in the air. As long as you stay high in the air, know that Big Band's only anti airs require him to be incredibly close to you. j.LK is great but hits below him so he would have to double jump just to reach you.

This means your only threat comes from the ground, but here's the kicker, BB is a charge character with a run, he really store a charge during a dash like Parasoul so most of his approach options wont allow him to charge A-train. If he jumps or emergency brakes, then predict if you think he will A-train and unfly > punish or just preempt it with j.MP/j.HK.

flight 9j.MP is pretty good in general, it will force BB to block from a ludicrous range as it will break armour and stuff out beat extend.

The main thing to be aware of is not being predictable on offense. Be careful when doing flight cancels and ground pressure that he could beat extend or SSJ out.

So overall, the matchup is just safer from PW's side. It plays out a bit like the Valentine matchup actually. But Valenine is a better flight character than Painwheel.

Fortunately, Band's Double and Super Jump is incredibly high, so it shouldn't be hard to get over you even if you do fly. BB can go up higher than you can with a double jump and a super jump combined. And Throw a nail every now and then from air fullscreen? Dude, BB can just use Noise Cancel (AKA Parry) to destroy the nails and greatly reduce damage so they can't annoy him, and that's really the only long range option you can do to me from a far. If BB didn't have Noise Cancel, then the nails would annoy him to death; but the ugly truth is: he does. Because of the nails' slow startup and the existence of BB's Noise Cancel, this move beyond useless against BB in my opinion, she is not Peacock. I might not be able to get you from fullscreen, but you can't get me either when I can basically parry your only long range offensive option. And to get any significant damage from a nail, you need to charge it up and it takes too long to finish that, long enough to let me use Giant Step before it can even come out. You could flight cancel it, but the nails ain't gonna come out if you do that. But considering how BB has parry, there really isn't much of a reason to do it anyway.

This means your only threat comes from the ground, but here's the kicker, BB is a charge character with a run, he really store a charge during a dash like Parasoul so most of his approach options wont allow him to charge A-train. If he jumps or emergency brakes, then predict if you think he will A-train and unfly > punish or just preempt it with j.MP/j.HK.

Hmph.. didn't ya know? BB has a j.hk too, and his puts him the ground to gain invincibility along with the ability to tech roll without needing to be knocked down. More useful as a movement tool than an attack, but he can still use it move about 1/2 screen closer to you and you can't hit him while he's rolling. Maybe not the most reliable movement option, but still something to note.

j.mp is incredibly unsafe and gets stuffed itself by Cymbal Clash (which can also destroy an uncombo'd Death Crawl if spaced properly). j.hp can armor through brass knuckle but not A'Train since it is still a throw, and A'Train also has a few hits of super armor too, plus the MK version homes in on you and grabs you anywhere in the air as long as you are within range. BB's supers also pose as good reversals against your offense too, especially after a Bagpipe Blues taunt (which shouldn't be hard to get since PW's mobility is horrible outside of flying).

In my view, its not PW who zones BB, but BB who zones her.
 
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Funkermonster said:
Coward :P

If you say so. Tomo pretty much hit the nail on the head (again), so I have no reason to jump in.
 
View619 said:
If you say so. Tomo pretty much hit the nail on the head (again), so I have no reason to jump in.
And funkermonster hit the nail on the head as well... I'm still not seeing what turtle wheel does to turtle band... Its a staring contest. BB has all kinds of ways he can get a literal advantage against pw. He can double jump over her. Super jump over her. He has a train for her bad spacing. He has actual counters to her stuff. He can use j.hk to invincibly move forward and then hit with her with a reversal should she think about trying to take advantage of him getting up, he has e brake for lessening distance (not necessarily for getting in in one fell swoop... But more for putting him in threat zone)

The matchup may not be advantage BB, or maybe it is, but there is a lot of counterplay options and bands are still learning the character. And already painwheels best option is to corner herself? (with no ability to teleport out of the corner) And its a good matchup?


...


Last i heard, when a characters best bet is to play full screen and corner themselves with no realistic option out... That isnt a good thing. I'm not convinced that the matchup is bad for pw, but I'm far far far from convinced that its in painwheels distinct favor.
 
Funkermonster said:
Fortunately, Band's Double and Super Jump is incredibly high, so it shouldn't be hard to get over you even if you do fly. BB can go up higher than you can with a double jump and a super jump combined. And Throw a nail every now and then from air fullscreen? Dude, BB can just use Noise Cancel (AKA Parry) to destroy the nails and greatly reduce damage so they can't annoy him, and that's really the only long range option you can do to me from a far. If BB didn't have Noise Cancel, then the nails would annoy him to death; but the ugly truth is: he does. Because of the nails' slow startup and the existence of BB's Noise Cancel, this move beyond useless against BB in my opinion, she is not Peacock. I might not be able to get you from fullscreen, but you can't get me either when I can basically parry your only long range offensive option. And to get any significant damage from a nail, you need to charge it up and it takes too long to finish that, long enough to let me use Giant Step before it can even come out. You could flight cancel it, but the nails ain't gonna come out if you do that. But considering how BB has parry, there really isn't much of a reason to do it anyway.



Hmph.. didn't ya know? BB has a j.hk too, and his puts him the ground to gain invincibility along with the ability to tech roll without needing to be knocked down. More useful as a movement tool than an attack, but he can still use it move about 1/2 screen closer to you and you can't hit him while he's rolling. Maybe not the most reliable movement option, but still something to note.

j.mp is incredibly unsafe and gets stuffed itself by Cymbal Clash (which can also destroy an uncombo'd Death Crawl if spaced properly). j.hp can armor through brass knuckle but not A'Train since it is still a throw, and A'Train also has a few hits of super armor too, plus the MK version homes in on you and grabs you anywhere in the air as long as you are within range. BB's supers also pose as good reversals against your offense too, especially after a Bagpipe Blues taunt (which shouldn't be hard to get since PW's mobility is horrible outside of flying).

In my view, its not PW who zones BB, but BB who zones her.

Parrying PW nails gets band absolutely nowhere, it is a question of who can take advantage the safest from the furthest range and in this matchup, that is Painwheel.

Cymbal Crash is probably BB's best tool in this matchup, but it hits lower than BB's body, meaning he has to double jump or superjump to get into the space where this threatens PW. You know what the problem is there? Sure Cymbal is fantastic on block? but whiff? lol it is suicide, ESPECIALLY from that high. You have time to make a cup of coffee, fly full screen and get a counterhit to punish his whiff. BB has tools in this matchup, I don't deny that but they are RISKY, much riskier than what PW has to do.

His jumps are well and good, they do move vertically quickly, but not horizontally.

You aren't going to be getting A-train grabbing you full screen, so armour not beating A-train there is irrelevant.

j.HK is a good hitbox, but you are wrong on one point. It isn't invincible the second he hits the ground. In fact it is extremely punishable even on block, on whiff its an easy punish. He gains invincibility after he goes into the full knockdown state/techs which is pretty damn far into the animation, it is absolutely NOT an approach option, it is an INCREDIBLY risky call out for obvious air movement. If he does do like a neutral jump j.HK then techs forward to approach... well he basically just put HIMSELF into an oki situation. Oki him at the end of his tech roll, this is where PW wants to be in every matchup, right?

EDIT: Also, j.MP unsafe? What, it is the furthest forward hitbox and even if you DON'T flight cancel it, it leaves you +ve. I thought a spaced j.MP was pretty much how a PW would like to start pressure? Baiting pushblocks appropriately.

@Dime_x happy to play you in this matchup with us playing characters either way around sometime, it may be that you know something I don't about BB in this matchup from playing with CM. It isn't really like playing against Bella, because Bella has far safer options to get on top of PW at midrange and anti airs PW with no problem. BB has no upwardly angled air normals and his horizontally angled air normals are terrible, even CM will agree with me on that point. His j.LK is his best air to air in most situations that aren't spacing with cymbal and it hits quite far below him.
 
Dime_x said:
And funkermonster hit the nail on the head as well... I'm still not seeing what turtle wheel does to turtle band... Its a staring contest. BB has all kinds of ways he can get a literal advantage against pw. He can double jump over her. Super jump over her. He has a train for her bad spacing. He has actual counters to her stuff. He can use j.hk to invincibly move forward and then hit with her with a reversal should she think about trying to take advantage of him getting up, he has e brake for lessening distance (not necessarily for getting in in one fell swoop... But more for putting him in threat zone)

The matchup may not be advantage BB, or maybe it is, but there is a lot of counterplay options and bands are still learning the character. And already painwheels best option is to corner herself? (with no ability to teleport out of the corner) And its a good matchup?


...


Last i heard, when a characters best bet is to play full screen and corner themselves with no realistic option out... That isnt a good thing. I'm not convinced that the matchup is bad for pw, but I'm far far far from convinced that its in painwheels distinct favor.


Your best bet is probably to play Tomo or something. Then you'll see it, assuming you still play PW? Remember, nails are also a tool that PW can move in behind into a j.mp which isn't unsafe on block at all (seriously, why would anybody think this), and armour absorbing both Brass pokes and Giant Step, A Train not covering full screen to catch means Band's options at full screen are basically get into the air and try to get closer. Things like raw j.hk into tech to put yourself into an oki situation aren't good at all, unless you're going to say PW now has to deal with wake-up SSJ as a "mix-up" option?

Still, these things are always best settled when the match is played out.
 
I wouldn't mind seeing that if someone was willing to record it.
 
View619 said:
Your best bet is probably to play Tomo or something. Then you'll see it, assuming you still play PW? Remember, nails are also a tool that PW can move in behind into a j.mp which isn't unsafe on block at all (seriously, why would anybody think this), and armour absorbing both Brass pokes and Giant Step, A Train not covering full screen to catch means Band's options at full screen are basically get into the air and try to get closer. Things like raw j.hk into tech to put yourself into an oki situation aren't good at all, unless you're going to say PW now has to deal with wake-up SSJ as a "mix-up" option?

Still, these things are always best settled when the match is played out.


This is nothing against tomo... But i dont like playing against him. Last we played the BB versus pw matchup i won pretty easily though with a completely different style than what tomo is describing. (Me playing pw, him playing BB) but how can i really count that when last we played solo peacock (me) versus BB... I also won easily?

Which is neither here nor there since this was months and months ago. Like i said, i dont necessarily think pw loses the matchup... Yet. I think its more or less evenish. But pw having a distinct advantage? Yeah i dont see it. And no I'm not picking up BB just to see that side of the matchup played.


Best we could hope for out here in au would be Clarence BB versus tomo pw... But Clarence doesnt main BB and tomo pw could be rusty cause afaik he doesnt main her anymore.



As far as j.mp being unsafe, i think funkermonster was talking about if the j.mp is guessed wrong and countered, or if its spaced wrong and wiffs... Of course no good pw will make that mistake much... But that limits the situations that a GOOD pw would try to use it in.


This reminds me of the old chun versus rog sf4 debate. Sweden was telling all of us that chun destroyed rog and that rog had "no answers"... I came up in the land of rog (combo fiend, keno, gootecks and about 10 high level intermediates that all played rog) so me and some other so cal chuns argued that while chun did win the match, it was by no means free and was very close to even. 4.5-5.5 at the biggest. Well Swedish dude went so far as to say that the match was a complete washout in chuns favor and that no good chun would ever lose to a rog and that we so cal chuns were shit. And yes, shizza, the only chun to make it top 8 at evo, to this day was apart of the socal crew. So anyways about
Ess than 2 months after all that... Our second best rog at the time, gootecks, went to dreamhack, beat the chun player that was talking all that shit, and then went back 2 months later and beat him again.


When i asked him why he lost... He just ignored me. Of course.



The point of this long winded story being, just cause a character wins a matchup slightly doesnt make the matchup unwinnable. And it certainly doesnt mean that there isnt a whole shitload of room for creative play to occur which will generally bring matchups back into the 5-5 realm of balance. I think you guys are trying to oversell painwheels advantages.


In the skatan versus gootecks matchup it became painfully clear that skatan wasnt used to the style of neutral that so cal boxers use, norwas he used to having his cr.hk be reactively wiff punished by rog cr.hk at a near 90% success rate. Nor was he ready for the jumpin mindgames that come from boxers spacing once he's trained chun she cant be liberal with her sweep.
 
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I don't think it's unwinnable at all for BB really. I would say in PW's favor due to her ability to still play her game (Nails + Flight, Nails with J.Mp) while having tools that negate most of Band's grounded options (HG s.fp to absorb his Brass pokes and attempts to beat Nails with Giant Step with the ability to straight punish Brass if he hits the HG , Nails + Flight into an area that he can't affect from full screen). But then, I don't think any match-up in this game is unwinnable unless it's something like a bad solo vs one of the top trio teams.
 
Dime_x said:
This is nothing against tomo... But i dont like playing against him. Last we played the BB versus pw matchup i won pretty easily though with a completely different style than what tomo is describing. (Me playing pw, him playing BB) but how can i really count that when last we played solo peacock (me) versus BB... I also won easily?

Which is neither here nor there since this was months and months ago. Like i said, i dont necessarily think pw loses the matchup... Yet. I think its more or less evenish. But pw having a distinct advantage? Yeah i dont see it. And no I'm not picking up BB just to see that side of the matchup played.


Best we could hope for out here in au would be Clarence BB versus tomo pw... But Clarence doesnt main BB and tomo pw could be rusty cause afaik he doesnt main her anymore.

So that's why you never play me anymore? haha

If I played solo BB that would have been a really long time ago? I'm sure I've played squig/BB or one of my main teams against you since then?

I wasn't arguing that she destroys him, someone posted about having trouble fighting BB the way she usually plays matchups and I explained how I've played PW against BB in casual games and from my knowledge of BB, how his tools don't necessarily work against PW properly.

I don't think the matchup is a landslide at all, I don't think I ever even insinuated as such, BB has tools, they are just riskier than PW's I feel.
 
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